87 replies to this topic

[provehito]

While I've heard a lot of debates about this, many people believe the Hero's Spirit in Twilight Princess to actually be the Hero of Time. There are many things used in this debate, however, like why is he dressed in gold? How can the Hero in Twilight Princess harbor the spirit of the Hero of Time if the Hero of Time is existing somewhere else? Why does he become a wolf? Why is he a skeleton/stalfos?

Questions involving the aesthetic presentations are answered usually with fan-fiction (albeit probable fan-fiction). His appearance as a stalfos is (possibly) a result of him dying in the Lost Woods in his search for Navi after Majora's Mask. When he died, he became a stalfos, but being the fabled Hero, when the next was born, his spirit was transfered inside of him. During the new Hero's quest (Twilight Princess), the Hero of Time projects himself spiritually and teaches the new Hero things he had learned, adorning golden armor (a color usually compared with light and the Triforce). Seeing as this new Hero is able to turn into a wolf, the spirit of the Hero of Time can also project himself as this. They exist in one body, as one entity, but maintain individual consciousnesses.

I'm here to talk about only the stalfos part, however, as everything is just theories brought up by many people that is more fan-fiction than not.

The last we see the Hero of Time, he's still in search of Navi, and is most likely still searched for her in the Lost Woods after the events of Majora's Mask. In Ocarina of Time, Fado ponders if Link would become a stalfos in the future, seeing as Hylians lost within the Lost Woods become them after their death. Was the idea of Link becoming a stalfos toyed with even back in the days of Ocarina of Time as a possible feature in a sequel? Did it influence the Hero's Spirit in Twilight Princess? Or is this just coincidence?

[Person]

I think that the most probable theory as to why he appears as a skeleton is because he's dead. You know, all dead and rotten and stuff. It's not a ghost you're seeing. That is the Hero of Time in the flesh. Just horribly rotten flesh.

[provehito]

I think that the most probable theory as to why he appears as a skeleton is because he's dead. You know, all dead and rotten and stuff. It's not a ghost you're seeing. That is the Hero of Time in the flesh. Just horribly rotten flesh.

That's possible, but a problem with that is if he's a spirit projecting himself as how he looks at that point in time, it's likely he wouldn't have flesh at all. In fact, most Hylians that have died in the past and appear as a spirit show themselves in a somewhat Hylian form. The one Swiftblade brother in the Minish Cap does not appear as similar to a stalfos, nor does the King of Red Lions/Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule in the Wind Waker (though I suppose it is debatable if he's actually a spirit or not).

Ocarina of Time hints at him possibly becoming a stalfos in the future through becoming lost in the Lost Woods, and Majora's Mask shows Link traveling in the Lost Woods in search of Navi. I find it more probable, granted the in-game dialogue and appearances of previous spirits, that the Hero's Spirit in Twilight Princess was supposed to give us almost a tragic ending to the Hero of Time's life. It ties in with the otherwise bleak setting of Twilight Princess fairly well.

[MikePetersSucks]

I just think he's some random heroic ghost unrelated to Link, really. Maybe sent by the Goddesses to teach him techniques, I dunno.

[Raien]

I just think he's some random heroic ghost unrelated to Link, really. Maybe sent by the Goddesses to teach him techniques, I dunno.

Even though the ghost states that Link is of his bloodline?

[LionHarted]

We have quite the quandary.

On the one hand, we could say that Link gets lost in the forest and becomes a Stalfos while searching for Navi. This bridges the quote and the Hero's Spirit in TP, and connects them. It also utilizes the howling melodies in TP as storyline devices, as they are featured in MM. However, if Link becomes a Stalfos while wandering the Lost Woods, he can hardly sire any descendants, can he? As such, he could not carry on his own bloodline. His bloodline would have to be passed on through another, which is technically possible, as he could have any number of still-living relatives.

However, Link's placement in TP, in a farming community reminiscent of an expanded Lon Lon Ranch, seems to imply that OoT Link went on to become a ranch hand as Talon had offered, and perhaps married Malon, playing on their implied romance. And to do that he would have to leave the Lost Woods, obviously. He could, however, return to the Lost Woods at a later time, and become lost then.

The skeleton simply being a representation of death doesn't fly with me, as consistency would have him become a Poe, not a skeleton.

So, really, it's difficult to determine timeline-related foreshadowing as having meaning without fanonizing; and, by the same token, it's oftentimes the intention of the developers to follow-up on it in small ways, which seems to invite fanfic.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 June 2007 - 08:55 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Even though the ghost states that Link is of his bloodline?

I didn't mean unrelated genetically, I mean not linked to....like, Link as a person. So he'd be like the Uncle from LTTP or something.

The skeleton simply being a representation of death doesn't fly with me, as consistency would have him become a Poe, not a skeleton.

Poes are specifically ghosts of hatred and woe, not representations of death.

[LionHarted]

Poes are specifically ghosts of hatred and woe, not representations of death.

Sharp, Flat, and Dampe are the only characters to appear in a form reminiscent of any other Zelda enemy as a result of death, and they appear as Poes.

[Fyxe]

What about Igos Du Ikana, Skull Keeta and all the Stalchildren in MM? Methinks you forget that they used to be alive, and they too used to be warriors like the hero.

[LionHarted]

What about Igos Du Ikana, Skull Keeta and all the Stalchildren in MM?

From what I can tell, none of them were human to begin with. Igos and his minions in particular have a Moblin-like quality about their bone structure. And Dampe we know to have been human, and based on their service to the royal family, Sharp and Flat likely were as well.

The Ikanans are also apparently cursed; their "death" abnormal by nature.

[Chiaki]

I think that the most probable theory as to why he appears as a skeleton is because he's dead. You know, all dead and rotten and stuff. It's not a ghost you're seeing. That is the Hero of Time in the flesh. Just horribly rotten flesh.

That's possible, but a problem with that is if he's a spirit projecting himself as how he looks at that point in time, it's likely he wouldn't have flesh at all. In fact, most Hylians that have died in the past and appear as a spirit show themselves in a somewhat Hylian form. The one Swiftblade brother in the Minish Cap does not appear as similar to a stalfos, nor does the King of Red Lions/Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule in the Wind Waker (though I suppose it is debatable if he's actually a spirit or not).

Ocarina of Time hints at him possibly becoming a stalfos in the future through becoming lost in the Lost Woods, and Majora's Mask shows Link traveling in the Lost Woods in search of Navi. I find it more probable, granted the in-game dialogue and appearances of previous spirits, that the Hero's Spirit in Twilight Princess was supposed to give us almost a tragic ending to the Hero of Time's life. It ties in with the otherwise bleak setting of Twilight Princess fairly well.

Thats possible, but think of it this way: Both OoT and TP Link's look pretty similar, so even if OoT Link's spirit could've looked like a ghosted version of himself, would he want to? If I were TP Link, meeting a spirit who looked eerily similar to myself would scare the crap out of me. Odds are, OoT Link didn't want that, and projected himself as a skeletal ghost to save explanation.

[MikePetersSucks]

From what I can tell, none of them were human to begin with. Igos and his minions in particular have a Moblin-like quality about their bone structure. And Dampe we know to have been human, and based on their service to the royal family, Sharp and Flat likely were as well.

So they weren't human, so what? Where in the canon does it say that different races have different afterlives?

Sharp, Flat, and Dampe are the only characters to appear in a form reminiscent of any other Zelda enemy as a result of death, and they appear as Poes.

And they died in a state of despair and woe and negative emotion. Fail.

[provehito]

We have quite the quandary.

On the one hand, we could say that Link gets lost in the forest and becomes a Stalfos while searching for Navi. This bridges the quote and the Hero's Spirit in TP, and connects them. It also utilizes the howling melodies in TP as storyline devices, as they are featured in MM. However, if Link becomes a Stalfos while wandering the Lost Woods, he can hardly sire any descendants, can he? As such, he could not carry on his own bloodline. His bloodline would have to be passed on through another, which is technically possible, as he could have any number of still-living relatives.

However, Link's placement in TP, in a farming community reminiscent of an expanded Lon Lon Ranch, seems to imply that OoT Link went on to become a ranch hand as Talon had offered, and perhaps married Malon, playing on their implied romance. And to do that he would have to leave the Lost Woods, obviously. He could, however, return to the Lost Woods at a later time, and become lost then.

The skeleton simply being a representation of death doesn't fly with me, as consistency would have him become a Poe, not a skeleton.

So, really, it's difficult to determine timeline-related foreshadowing as having meaning without fanonizing; and, by the same token, it's oftentimes the intention of the developers to follow-up on it in small ways, which seems to invite fanfic.

I think Link ended up having a kid at some point, though whether it's by Malon or whoever else is a gamble, because we honestly don't know. While the relationship between Link and Malon is hinted at, it's never realized. I always saw Ordon as a throwback to the Kokiri Village, seeing as both were situated within the same forests respectively. The "Hero of Twilight" grew up in a location very close to the Hero of Time. That's just what I like to think. I do think that the Hero of Time, after the events of Majora's Mask, took the time to settle down for a while and start a family when he grew older, but I feel that he never gave up on his search for Navi.

Thats possible, but think of it this way: Both OoT and TP Link's look pretty similar, so even if OoT Link's spirit could've looked like a ghosted version of himself, would he want to? If I were TP Link, meeting a spirit who looked eerily similar to myself would scare the crap out of me. Odds are, OoT Link didn't want that, and projected himself as a skeletal ghost to save explanation.

They look similar, but that doesn't necessarily give reason to hide himself. If he became a stalfos, he didn't just die, he became the undead. Those who normally die (peacefully, unlike poes) usually appear similar to their previous forms. If anything, they used the skeleton image to portray a sense of mystery about the character; they made you want to know who he is. Whether or not it's a artistic choice or not, however, we can't really shake the fact that such situations were foreshadowed and many pieces of evidence match together.

[Fyxe]

Ordon is definitely a throwback to Kokori Village, if only in style. Houses made from trees, and 'Ilia' is clearly a connection to 'Saria' (which can be translated as 'Salia', making the names even closer), and obviously the location at a southern forest right next to the Lost Woods.

Whether there's any storyline significance is something entirely different.

[Hero of Legend]

The Forest Temple supposedly is the child timeline's version of the Forbiden Woods/Forest Haven, which marks the spot of the Kokiri Forest, so Ordon would be slightly south of OoT's Lost Woods region (which was kinda obvious to begin with). No idea where I was getting with that...

Anyway, I basically agree with provehito here. OoT and MM certainly do foreshadow the state we see the Hero of Time in in TP. It is likely that his spirit was manifested as a Golden Wolf/Stalfos through Link and the ToC. Yeah, obviously he lost his eye at some point, but I figure he returned to Hyrule at least once, and then fought some battles and stuff before dying.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 June 2007 - 07:01 PM.

[Fyxe]

The Forest Temple supposedly is the child timeline's version of the Forbiden Woods/Forest Haven, which marks the spot of the Kokiri Forest, so Ordon would be slightly south of OoT's Lost Woods region (which was kinda obvious to begin with). No idea where I was getting with that...

Wait, I see how it links with the Forbidden Woods, but I don't see how the Forest Temple connects with Forest Haven, which is a fair jump away from the Forbidden Woods (much like how it's a fair jump from the Forest Temple to the village).

Also, TWW is apparently on a seperate timeline so whether there has to be any geographical connections is a bit of a moot point, I suppose.

[Duke Serkol]

It would be mighty difficult for a poe to pass those techniques

About Kokiri Village-Ordon, try comparing the shape of the maps...
guess what just may have used to have been where Fado manages goats?

Given this though, I doubt the Forest Temple could be Forbidden Woods since Forbidden Woods used to be the Kokiri village.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Take a closer look, guys, he's not a stalfos at all. Not a single bone is visible. The spaces between his armor are filled with translucent smoky limbs, and his face is that of a generic ghoul. He just -acts- like a stalfos, what with being really big and having the right kind of armor and weaponry, but the important part is being-a-skeleton. So yeah, he's a ghost.

[Evilsbane]

Take a closer look, guys, he's not a stalfos at all. Not a single bone is visible. The spaces between his armor are filled with translucent smoky limbs, and his face is that of a generic ghoul. He just -acts- like a stalfos, what with being really big and having the right kind of armor and weaponry, but the important part is being-a-skeleton. So yeah, he's a ghost.

It's worth pointing out that Shades in Greek Mythology were what dead people looked like while they were still adjusting to being dead. In the description I read, a Shade is like a skeleton that still has flesh, but the flesh is starting to become transparent so that you can sorta see the skeleton underneath. This is apparently what Achilles looked like when Odysseus was looking for information in Hades.

[SteveT]

As usual, the Triforce of Time Theory (TToTT) explains this perfectly.

The ghost is, in fact, Link/Tingle's ghost, passing on his knowledge to his younger self. He hoped that making Link a mighty warrior would give him the mental discipline needed to prevent himself from turning into Tingle.

(Apologies for the pronoun situation. It's tough when you're dealing with three incarnations of the same guy.)

Edited by SteveT, 23 June 2007 - 09:48 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Dammit, SteveT, stop pwning us with the Triforce of Time, it's not fair.

[SOAP]

The Forest Temple supposedly is the child timeline's version of the Forbiden Woods/Forest Haven, which marks the spot of the Kokiri Forest, so Ordon would be slightly south of OoT's Lost Woods region (which was kinda obvious to begin with). No idea where I was getting with that...

Anyway, I basically agree with provehito here. OoT and MM certainly do foreshadow the state we see the Hero of Time in in TP. It is likely that his spirit was manifested as a Golden Wolf/Stalfos through Link and the ToC. Yeah, obviously he lost his eye at some point, but I figure he returned to Hyrule at least once, and then fought some battles and stuff before dying.

He reminds me of a Cylon.

[SteveT]

Dammit, SteveT, stop pwning us with the Triforce of Time, it's not fair.

I can't help it if it's perfect

[MikePetersSucks]

By the way, where does TP go in the Triforce of Time? I've been curious.

[SteveT]

Posted it here some time ago:

http://forums.legend...showtopic=11695

That version is reasonably up-to-date. Restructured the whole thing and removed the cornier jokes.

The short of it is that TP between OoT and LttP/WW, only during Link's second trip around. After becoming his own father, but before he degraded into Tingle.

[CID Farwin]

let me see,

Wait, I see how it links with the Forbidden Woods, but I don't see how the Forest Temple connects with Forest Haven, which is a fair jump away from the Forbidden Woods (much like how it's a fair jump from the Forest Temple to the village).

I look at the Forest Haven, and I see an old, dead, deku tree.

I look at the Forest Temple, and see a big tree with the deku symbol all over inside.

and for the Hero's spirit guy, I can't think of any specific dialogue, but he seemed to me like he never quite made it to 'hero.' and I think I already said what I think on the matter on the "fanon" thread.

[edit] by the way, I walk into the Sacred Forest Meadow and think, "holy crap, it's the Forest Temple!"

Edited by CID Farwin, 07 July 2007 - 03:02 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I look at the Forest Temple, and see a big tree with the deku symbol all over inside.

Forest Temple in TP appears to be a whole bunch of giant trees.

and for the Hero's spirit guy, I can't think of any specific dialogue, but he seemed to me like he never quite made it to 'hero.' and I think I already said what I think on the matter on the "fanon" thread.

by the way, I walk into the Sacred Forest Meadow and think, "holy crap, it's the Forest Temple!"

Me too... but can it possibly be both the Forest Temple AND the Temple of Time? Seems unlikely.

[CID Farwin]

Forest Temple in TP appears to be a whole bunch of giant trees.

I mean from the outside, If I remember correctly.

Me too... but can it possibly be both the Forest Temple AND the Temple of Time? Seems unlikely.

it's either that or have the Temple of Time moved somehow to the other side of Death Mountain.

[Person]

Since the Lost Woods have no consistent location, that's probably what happened. Geography in relation to "migratory" areas is futile.

[SOAP]

The Forest Temple supposedly is the child timeline's version of the Forbiden Woods/Forest Haven, which marks the spot of the Kokiri Forest, so Ordon would be slightly south of OoT's Lost Woods region (which was kinda obvious to begin with). No idea where I was getting with that...

Anyway, I basically agree with provehito here. OoT and MM certainly do foreshadow the state we see the Hero of Time in in TP. It is likely that his spirit was manifested as a Golden Wolf/Stalfos through Link and the ToC. Yeah, obviously he lost his eye at some point, but I figure he returned to Hyrule at least once, and then fought some battles and stuff before dying.

He reminds me of a Cylon.

Oh boohoo. No one commented on this. I'm gonna go crawl into a corner and cry.

*hugs Lee Adama plush doll*