135 replies to this topic

[Person]

Okay, ALttP itself is pretty ambigous about Agahnim's identity. I've seen a plethora of theories about him, but interesting parallels between ALttP and TP have led to other theories. Here are some I've seen:

Agahnim as Ganon's Vassal
This theory proposes that Agahnim and Ganon are two separate beings. Ganon used Agahnim to kidnap the maidens and attempt to break the seal. This theory draws parallels to Ganondorf and Zant in TP, and Vaati and Ganon in FSA.

Agahnim and Phantom Agahnim
This theory is much like the first one, but it instead says that the Agahnim fought on top of Ganon's Tower was only a fake created by Ganon.

Agahnim is Possessed
This theory says that Ganon took over Agahnim's body and used it to kidnap the maidens. Once Agahnim's body was killed on top of Ganon's Tower, Ganon was exposed. This theory draws parallels to Puppet Zelda.

Phantom Agahnim
Agahnim wasn't really a wizard. He was instead one of Ganon's phantoms sent into the Light World, and Ganon was exposed when the phantom was destroyed.

Agahnim as Ganon's Disguise
Agahnim and Ganon are one and the same. Agahnim was Ganon's disguise in the Light World to avoid detection.

Any thoughts?

[Fyxe]

It's none of those things.

Agahnim is Ganon's alter-ego, much how Shiek is Zelda's alter-ego. This is what Ganon himself says. He uses the phrase 'alter-ego'. This means that mentally, they are one and the same, although physically, Agahnim is clearly different from Ganon. He's essentially a disguise, but it's not like he's wearing the wizard's mantle. The whole body is a disguise.

This *could* imply that Agahnim was a wizard who was possessed, but this is unlikely given that Agahnim shares many physical traits with Ganon (blue skin, nails that are very claw-like, etc.).

Just to emphasise this, here's some official art.



Notice that the face isn't exactly a million miles away from Ganondorf.

Edited by Fyxe, 13 June 2007 - 10:08 AM.

[Person]

I think that that theory is the gist of the "disguise" theory. Although, Agahnim does kind of look like a blue Ganondorf.

So I guess you have a point there. But advocates of other theories would use the second definition of alter-ego, meaning companion or pawn.

EDIT: Darn! I can't post images! Oh, well.

Edited by Person, 13 June 2007 - 10:23 AM.

[Chaltab]

I've always thought of Aghanim as a sort of a puppet, a being with only rudimentary consciousness that by nature is forced to obey Ganon's every whim, whom he can personally take control of if need be. I guess in that reguard most similar to Phantom Ganon. I figure after Link defeated Aghanim the first time, Ganon basically merged with him and took full control. (For them to be alter egoes from the start would raise the question, how did Aghanim/Ganon get out of the Sacred Realm if they were one and the same?)

[SL the Pyro]

Notice that the face isn't exactly a million miles away from Ganondorf.

Geh? I thought his robes were white and green in ALttP... you sure you didn't get the Oracles version, Fyxe? Though I agree with the face.

(Just to clarify, Agahnim appears as the third mini-boss in OoS, and he was red there.)

[LionHarted]

Since the nature of Agahnim's connection to Ganon is unknown, beyond the fact that Ganon seems to have assumed Agahnim as one of his identities, we can't really say (1) how/if he escaped from the light world; (2) whether they share a consciousness. I could picture it as being similar to the Zant situation.

However, it's also suggested that there was darkness seeping from the Sacred Realm at the time the game began (hence the sages' descendants sensing a threat coming from there), so it's possible that Agahnim is the physical incarnation of whatever evil had managed to seep out by that point (hence your inability to attack him physically).

Fyxe: Blue skin, in the Zelda series, is a common trait of persons who are possessed (Impa/Nayru in Oracles; Zelda in TP).

[Person]

Shadow Link: Nope. His sprite had green robes in ALttP, but all official art shows him as having red robes.
Also, I wasn't aware of the Oracles miniboss being anything other than a souped-up Wizzrobe.

LionHarted: Veran has blue skin, but she's not possessed. She's the one doing the possessing. I think that blue skin is more of a mark of being evil or possessed by evil, much like how Ganondorf's skin turns from brown to green over the course of OoT as he gains more evil power.

Edited by Person, 13 June 2007 - 10:45 AM.

[SL the Pyro]

Blue skin, in the Zelda series, is a common trait of persons who are possessed (Impa/Nayru in Oracles; Zelda in TP).

Don't forget Queen Ambi in OoA. I still don't see why slashing Nayru/Ambi hurts YOU, though.

Nope. His sprite had green robes in ALttP, but all official art shows him as having red robes.
Also, I wasn't aware of the Oracles miniboss being anything other than a souped-up Wizzrobe.

Well, for one thing Agahnim in OoS carries one of ALttP Canon's traits; hiding with the lamps. You had to light the lamps with an Ember Seed to make OoS Agahnim vulnerable, just like ALttP Ganon.

Edited by Shadow_Link, 13 June 2007 - 10:42 AM.

[Fyxe]

All official art of Agahnim depicts his robes as red. His robes in-game are green.

It's a common thing back in the ol' 8-bit and 16-bit era to have limited colour pallettes, meaning that in-game graphics were not always the same as official art when it came to colours. Case in point - Link's hat and his hair.

I think Agahnim's skin is brown in the game. Interestingly, Ganondorf has been depicted in recent games (TWW and TP) as having very similar skin to the old art of Agahnim.

Agahnim is closely tied to Ganondorf. He's not a seperate being.

The wizard in the Oracle games is NOT Agahnim, although it's clearly a homage. Remember that Agahnim was just a souped up Wizzrobe anyway. If you're going to say that the wizard in the Oracle games is Agahnim, then you might as well claim that Carrock from Zelda II is Agahnim, because Carrock was very very similar to Agahnim, and is actually the first boss in the series where you have to reflect magic at it to kill it. Agahnim was clearly based on Carrock, and both were based on Wizzrobes.

Edited by Fyxe, 13 June 2007 - 10:47 AM.

[Person]

The in-game Agahnim sprite looked just like Ganondorf had thrown on a green robe.

[SL the Pyro]

AUGH! You just HAD to remind me of that boss, didn't you, Fyxe? I HATED that thing; it took me about ten Game Overs before I realized I had to use my Reflect magic on it. >_<

Edited by Shadow_Link, 13 June 2007 - 10:51 AM.

[Person]

Carock was the easiest boss in a Zelda game EVER. All you had to do was crouch and he'd kill himself.

[SL the Pyro]

Not always; sometimes when I camp out near an edge, he'd teleport right on top of me, which REALLY hurts. >_<

[Person]

I just stood in the middle and turned around when he materialized behind me. Seriously. Only Dark Link was easier.

[SL the Pyro]

...AHEM. Dark Link was EASY? Poppycock! He had to be the hardest Dark Link ever to grace a game system! I swear, that shield of his was flipping annoying, especially since he could use it and attack at the same time.

[Fyxe]

Neither bosses are easy.

They're just not. So you got lucky, Person. I think you'll find that staying in the middle and turning in time to his teleports generally doesn't work unless you're lucky, as he has a habit of teleporting ontop of you, regularly. He's also more likely to not get hit if you're in the middle.

And Dark Link isn't easy. He's not as hard as the Iron Knuckle in my opinion, but he's not easy.

Edited by Fyxe, 13 June 2007 - 11:01 AM.

[SL the Pyro]

Carrock can't be hit so easily because he warps away very quickly after he shoots at you; he has to reappear on the same side that you're facing for you to score a hit, and he has to be reasonably close to you or he'll warp away before you hit him. Fyxe is right, you're just getting lucky, Person.

Edited by Shadow_Link, 13 June 2007 - 11:06 AM.

[Person]

Dark Link was easy compared to the Thunderbird. All you had to do was stand at one side of the arena and wave your sword around. DL would try to rush you and then get your sword planted in his face.

Anywho, let's get back on topic.

I find it interesting that Agahnim "dies" when you beat him on Hyrule Castle. This would lend credence to the "Two Agahnims" theory, although I think it may be stretching it.

[SL the Pyro]

What? I always thought he just teleported (to Ganon's Tower), not died...

[Person]

He says something to the effect of:
"With my last breath, I wil draw you into the Dark World."

[Tekky]

Grrrrugh! Well met! Like the
true Hero that you are...
But I am not ready to admit
defeat yet. I will draw you
into the Dark World!

[Hero of Legend]

If Agahnim and Ganon were indeed the same, then why did Ganon bother with breaking the seal if he'd already escaped from the Sacred Realm? Then again, if TWW is anything to go by, I assume his power (not to mention the Triforce itself) were still stuck in the Dark World, so I guess that explains it.

Either way, he was obviously the inspiration for Phantom Ganon. I think that's enough, personally.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 13 June 2007 - 11:39 AM.

[Person]

Hmm... I guess I was wrong about the "Defeat" quote. But the alter-ego doesn't have to be a disguise like Sheik. I'm either partial to the "phantom" theory myself. I think that the phantom theory makes sense as to how Agahnim got out of the Dark World, and it would explain the "alter ego" quote. Just like Phantom Ganon is Ganondorf's alter-ego, Agahnim can be, too.

[Raien]

1) Zelda tells us that Agahnim's actions are being controlled by another source; in other words, he is a puppet.
2) Agahnim's heart is not reflected by the Dark World to create an monster form. Thus, Agahnim has no soul of his own.
3) After Agahnim's defeat, we see Ganon's spirit rise from Agahnim's body. Thus, Ganon's spirit possesses Agahnim.
4) After Ganon's spirit leaves Agahnim's body, the dead corpse of Agahnim remains, which tells us that Agahnim is not another physical form of Ganon.

Conclusion: Agahnim is a dead human who was possessed by Ganon's spirit and used to enter the Light World.

Edited by jhurvid, 13 June 2007 - 01:38 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

1) Nope. The priest says Agahnim's actions and powers are "guided" and "augmented" by a "mighty evil force." This doesn't imply anything other than that Agahnim was working for Ganon.
2) Blind could change his form at will in the Dark World. Souls don't have anything to do with it, anyway.
3) Yeah.
4) Who says his body remained? His robe is left - that's all. Besides, it doesn't prove anything, because Ganon could have created Agahnim as a separate entity.

Conclusion: Where the hell did you get that from?

[Tekky]

Does anyone know what the original Japanese text translates as? Alter ego has several meanings in English

A second self; an intimate and trusted friend; a confidential agent or representative. Hence {smm}alter-{sm}egoism, altruism; {smm}alter-ego{sm}istic a., altruistic.

[Raien]

1) Nope. The priest says Agahnim's actions and powers are "guided" and "augmented" by a "mighty evil force." This doesn't imply anything other than that Agahnim was working for Ganon.

I disagree, since Ganon would have to be actively connected to Agahnim for the connection and the guidance to be sensed. But the quote actually only appears in the NOA translation anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

2) Blind could change his form at will in the Dark World. Souls don't have anything to do with it, anyway.

In the Dark World, Blind is quite obviously a monster. And he worked for Ganon, so it is We are told that people become monsters because their heats are reflected by the Dark World, hence Link becomes a rabbit and Ganon becomes a pig.

4) Who says his body remained? His robe is left - that's all. Besides, it doesn't prove anything, because Ganon could have created Agahnim as a separate entity.

Looking at the scene again via youtube, Agahnim's head still forms a bulge and I believe I can see his fingers through the robe. Then again, I can accept that Ganon created the body of Agahnim, which would make it possible for that body to disappear should Ganon be driven out. Whatever, it's still plainly obvious that Agahnim is a substitute form for Ganon.

[Jumbie]

Agahnim as Ganon's Vassal
This theory proposes that Agahnim and Ganon are two separate beings. Ganon used Agahnim to kidnap the maidens and attempt to break the seal. This theory draws parallels to Ganondorf and Zant in TP, and Vaati and Ganon in FSA.

Agahnim is Possessed
This theory says that Ganon took over Agahnim's body and used it to kidnap the maidens. Once Agahnim's body was killed on top of Ganon's Tower, Ganon was exposed. This theory draws parallels to Puppet Zelda.

Uhm.. and where is the difference between the two theories?! Seeing as Ganon did possess Zant, a separate being, in TP, the same will be my explanation for Agahnim now.

Agahnim and Phantom Agahnim
This theory is much like the first one, but it instead says that the Agahnim fought on top of Ganon's Tower was only a fake created by Ganon.

Totally unnecessary.

Phantom Agahnim
Agahnim wasn't really a wizard. He was instead one of Ganon's phantoms sent into the Light World, and Ganon was exposed when the phantom was destroyed.

That is what I used to believe before TP was released.

Agahnim as Ganon's Disguise
Agahnim and Ganon are one and the same. Agahnim was Ganon's disguise in the Light World to avoid detection.

Impossible. If this was the case, there'd be no need for the whole seal breaking. I don't believe in this "only his power was still sealed in the Dark World" thing. Agahnim could just open a gate to the Dark World from Hyrule and let his power seep out. In TWW it was different, there the Master Sword sealed Ganon, and as soon as Jalhalla and Moldo Geira killed Laruto and Fado, the sword lost its power and Ganondorf's body could escape to the surface. Then when the sword was drawn from its pedestal, the entire timeseal on Hyrule broke, and Ganondorf's full power returned to him.

Edited by Jumbie, 13 June 2007 - 03:48 PM.

[Raien]

Impossible. If this was the case, there'd be no need for the whole seal breaking. I don't believe in this "only his power was still sealed in the Dark World" thing. Agahnim could just open a gate to the Dark World from Hyrule and let his power seep out. In TWW it was different, there the Master Sword sealed Ganon, and as soon as Jalhalla and Moldo Geira killed Laruto and Fado, the sword lost its power and Ganondorf's body could escape to the surface. Then when the sword was drawn from its pedestal, the entire timeseal on Hyrule broke, and Ganondorf's full power returned to him.

Ganondorf and his magic were sealed by the Master Sword in TWW, and the seal remained intact even after he was able to escape to the surface world. Although Ganondorf could not bring all of himself to the surface, and thus he possessed limited power, Ganondorf was able to leak his spirit through the seal and some of his magic too. So why could not Ganon leak his spirit and part of his magic into the surface world in the form of Agahnim, with the means of breaking the seal so that all of his power can be released?

Edited by jhurvid, 13 June 2007 - 04:36 PM.

[Showsni]

Agahnim as Ganon's Vassal

That's probably the theory for me. Ganon can't escape the Dark World, and one of the maidens tells you that Agahnim is Ganon's pawn. Possibly Ganon's spirit speaks to him or something in a possessing sense, though... Ganon says:
"It's unbelievable that you defeated my alterego, Agahnim the Dark Wizard, twice!" and it's unlikely that he would talk about himself in the third person like that if Agahnim was merely a disguise. They also have differnet styles of talking; Agahnim laughs in nearly every sentence, and calls Link by name. Ganon talks more formally (kinda) and calls Link "lad."

Then there's "After all, the legendary Hero cannot defeat us, the tribe of evil, when we are armed with the Power of Gold." This certianly shows Agahnim is in league with Ganon, and in the same tribe, but if he was Ganon you'd think he'd said "whilst I am armed with the Power of Gold" or something.

Edited by Showsni, 13 June 2007 - 06:58 PM.