130 replies to this topic

[Person]

If I may shed a little light on the subject:
We know that FSA has to come after either TWW or TP, because those are both direct sequels to OoT. Ganon dies in both of them. Regardless of which timeline you put it in, the FSA Ganondorf is a new incarnation of the OoT Ganondorf. That's what I think the "ancient demon reborn" means. Ganon was reincarnated in FSA and got the Trident to become King of Darkness.

I prefer to put FSA right after TP, because Ganon is specifically referred to as a "demon" in that game, instead of his Demon King title he has in almost every game.

Edited by Person, 09 June 2007 - 12:25 PM.

[Raien]

The title is the same in each game in which he appears. What are you getting at?

Is Ganondorf referred to as the "Demon King of Darkness" in OoT?

I think what the Trident represents is completely irrelevant in the face of what his "rebirth" represents. Is it the Demon King being "reborn"; or is it Ganondorf being "reborn" as the Demon King?

I would say that the former would suggest that the inhuman Demon King has appeared before, while the latter suggests nothing in particular.

Unless the nature of the Demon King evolves, and the Trident represents the completion of the evolutionary transformation.

[Person]

If I'm not mistaken, Ganondorf is the Demon King in the Japanese version.

[LionHarted]

Is Ganondorf referred to as the "Demon King of Darkness" in OoT?

As far as I'm aware, his title remains the same between games.

Unless the nature of the Demon King evolves, and the Trident represents the completion of the evolutionary transformation.

Again, irrelevant. All that matters is whether the "ancient demon" refers to the inhuman (pig Ganon from LoZ/ALttP/Oracles) or the human (Ganondorf from OoT), or something else entirely (allowing for FSA to possibly be before OoT?).

Edited by LionHarted, 09 June 2007 - 01:22 PM.

[Raien]

As far as I'm aware, his title remains the same between games.

I've just double-checked the translation notes and he is in fact referred to as the Demon King in LoZ and OoT as well. My mistake.

Again, irrelevant. All that matters is whether the "ancient demon" refers to the inhuman (pig Ganon from LoZ/ALttP/Oracles) or the human (Ganondorf from OoT), or something else entirely (allowing for FSA to possibly be before OoT?).

My argument is that there appears to be a difference between being demonic in spirit, as I believe Ganondorf is in the OoT arc, and being an actual demon, as Ganon is in ALTTP and FSA. Whether the "evil spirit" is Ganondorf or not, the Trident represents the complete transformation into a demon.

And frankly, if FSA Ganondorf can be a reincarnation, I don't see why OoT Ganondorf can't be a reincarnation either. Being the first known Demon King doesn't make him the first Demon King.

[LionHarted]

And frankly, if FSA Ganondorf can be a reincarnation, I don't see why OoT Ganondorf can't be a reincarnation either. Being the first known Demon King doesn't make him the first Demon King.

Indeed, as I've pointed out before.

And, to take it a step further, FSA could even be before OoT, with OoT Ganondorf being a reincarnation of the FSA Ganondorf "demonic soul", and ALttP Ganon rediscovering the Trident. However, it seems to me that the climate of Hyrule is consistent between FSA and ALttP, but not between FSA/ALttP and OoT, so this would be somewhat nonsensical. Then again, the consistency may be a result of similar development teams. (Although interestingly this same development team is creating a game evocative of TWW and TMC.)

Edited by LionHarted, 09 June 2007 - 02:59 PM.

[Raien]

So if we conclude the theory that the Trident is the symbol of Ganondorf's complete transformation into a demon, this leaves one final question to be answered. How does Ganondorf's account of the suffering of his tribe in TWW (which he strongly implies is the origin of his malevolence and lust for power) relate to the artificial nature of his demonic soul?

-We could go with the idea that the Gerudo tribe, being effectively outcast from Hyrule, act as a catalyst for the Demon King to discover his true nature.
-We could go with the idea that Ganondorf was not related to demons before his partial transformation with the Triforce of Power.

The former explanation would explain why every reincarnation of Ganondorf is as a Gerudo male, but it is contradicted by the peaceful nature of the Gerudo tribe in FSA. It could be possible that subsequent reincarnations after OoT are artificial, which supports the latter explanation.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 June 2007 - 07:51 PM.

[LionHarted]

So if we conclude the theory that the Trident is the symbol of Ganondorf's complete transformation into a demon

*shrugs* The Trident is connected to the demon transformation, but we don't know nearly enough to come even close to guessing at how.

How does Ganondorf's account of the suffering of his tribe in TWW (which he strongly implies is the origin of his malevolence and lust for power) relate to the artificial nature of his demonic soul?

Self-justification for evil acts. My God, man; not everything is as deep and intricately-woven as you make it out to be.

[Raien]

*shrugs* The Trident is connected to the demon transformation, but we don't know nearly enough to come even close to guessing at how.

In ALTTP, Ganon gains the Trident after the title. In FSA, vice versa. To conclude, there is never one without the other, and the Trident is not a separate source of power. I would go as far as to say that Ganon and his Trident are two halves of a whole.

Self-justification for evil acts. My God, man; not everything is as deep and intricately-woven as you make it out to be.

Lol, you're one to talk.

[LionHarted]

In ALTTP, Ganon gains the Trident after the title. In FSA, vice versa. To conclude, there is never one without the other, and the Trident is not a separate source of power. I would go as far as to say that Ganon and his Trident are two halves of a whole.

1) Original LoZ.
2) We've never seen the Trident without Ganon, so we can't gauge whether it's a "separate" anything.

Lol, you're one to talk.

I'm aware I look too deeply into plot connections.
That's an entirely different matter than trying to delve into overarching symbolism, IMO.

[Raien]

1) Original LoZ.

Later LoZ artwork depicted a trident, so obviously it was a symbol that did not originate with the first game's release. BS Zelda returned it to the scene.

2) We've never seen the Trident without Ganon, so we can't gauge whether it's a "separate" anything.

If the Trident was separate, Ganon wouldn't possess it simply by gaining power from another source (the Triforce). If we think back to before FSA was released, the Trident was then a symbol of Ganon, as his weapon. That doesn't appear to have changed in FSA, but Ganon gets his power through the Trident this time. The two are directly connected.

Edited by jhurvid, 10 June 2007 - 07:58 AM.