93 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Shad in TP said it.
Perhaps he's just delusional.

Shad says they helped make Hylian civilization. This is confirmed when when Ooccoo regonizes the architecture of the Temple of Time, the Domion Rod, nad the canon as being of her people's design. Nothing about making the Hylian people themselves. It just means as Duke Serkol says, that the the Oocca helped, or at the very laest inspired Hylian civilization as they now know it. Perhaps the Oocca came up with all the concepts but the Hylians actually did all the hard labor. Could explain why they were tied in the past and why even the Oocca city was built to accomodate human-sized people. So the Hylian construction workers could easily get around.

I think the source of confusion is Auru who says the Oocca are the Hylian's ancestors. But I'm not sure so don't beat me up... Fyxe.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods.

But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians.

When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.

Some say there is an ancient temple deep in the woods that guards a sacred power.

The ancestors of the Hylians created the temple... Signs of their civilization - ancient, but very sophisticated - are everywhere.

Lessons learned:

1) You're wrong.
2) Checking facts before you post = good idea. (general advice)
3) I'm not Fyxe.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 May 2007 - 04:17 AM.

[SOAP]

Well there's that, but I'm pretty sure Auru also says that the Oocca are the Hylians ancestors while Shad is gone from the bar to investigate the shrine's basement.

[Kamina]

Well there's that, but I'm pretty sure Auru also says that the Oocca are the Hylians ancestors while Shad is gone from the bar to investigate the shrine's basement.

Well, i don't think the Occa are the Hylians ancestors. I think the ancestors were human/hylian as well. And those people probably were the first ones who had contact to the Occa.

Edited by Kyuubi no Youko, 02 May 2007 - 05:28 AM.

[SOAP]

I don't believe that the Oocca are the Hylians ancestors either. I just recall Auru saying something along those lines at Telma's Bar while Shad was away. I may be totally wrong but I'm not flat out making it up to suit my own purposes because what would I use it for? The only raeson I'm so keen that that's what he said because when I read it sounded far crazier than Shad saying the Oocca created the Hylians. It was something along the lines of "Some say the Oocca are the ancestors of the Hylians." Sure I should go double check but it's not like I can rewind my game back to that point nor are there's any text dumps I can use that I know of. If there are, I'd be happy to use them. But as of right it's not important enough to go through such trouble.

[Hero of Legend]

Where do you think I got those quotes from?

Credit to Mgoblue201.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I think it's all just baseless legend... More triumph forks.. there's a grain of truth in it somewhere...

[SOAP]

Where do you think I got those quotes from?

Credit to Mgoblue201.

Excuse me, not Auru. It was Rusl.

So? Did you find the power of the ancient civilization?
If you discover anything, could you be sure to also tell Shad?
He has been researching the Oocca, who are said to be the ancestors of the
Hylians.

I knew someone other than Shad in Telma's bar said something along those lines. I just had my older men mixed up. Thanks for the quotefaq. You just proved my point.

[provehito]

Strange, so we're left with several new concepts concerning Hylian origins, whether culturally or "biologically."

1. A race close to the Gods created the the Hylians.
2. Ancestors of the Hylians created Hylian architecture/civilization.
3. Oocca are the ancestors of the Hylians.
4. The creatures that live in a floating city (the Oocca) created the Hylians.

Through deducting this, you come to the supposed "facts" that the Oocca are both the creators and the ancestors of Hylian life. However, "create" seems to imply that they crafted Hylians, not evolved into them overtime as "ancestors" seems to imply. Perhaps certain Oocca branched off and took on human-like forms, and these forms are actually what Hylians truly are? It wouldn't contradict the notion that Hylians are the closest race to the Gods and the Oocca have been at one point.

It's a long shot, but I think that's really the only logical deduction to be made now. I myself don't really like the introduction of the Oocca into Hyrulean mythology.

[Hero of Legend]

You just proved my point.

By opting not to quote one guy saying the same thing twice? Please, what Rusl said in the bar proved nothing more than the fact that you were wrong about who said what.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 May 2007 - 12:16 PM.

[Fyxe]

Am I the only one who quite likes the Oocca? I like them because they're utterly bizarre. They make me think of a truely ancient and alien species. They also have a lot of similarities to creatures that are tradititionally close to gods in mythology, such as the bird of Hermes (which, if you look it up, is portrayed in a virtually identical manner to the Oocca).

It seems that everyone who dislikes the Oocca being the first creatures created by the goddesses are people who simply don't like the Oocca, therefore their opinion is biased.

I trust Shad more than I trust random opinions of fans. He's, y'know, actually informed. Since he's IN the game.

[LionHarted]

The Oocca seem like sort of a play on the "chicken or the egg" adage.
They also seem to be tied to the owls, who are in turn tied to the ancient sages apparently through KG.

[Hero of Legend]

I trust Shad more than I trust random opinions of fans. He's, y'know, actually informed. Since he's IN the game.

I still say Shad's character is Nintendo's way of poking fun us timeliners, which would make him less than credible, indeed.

[Fyxe]

That's a rather egotistical thought. I don't buy it. I really doubt anyone even gives a monkeys or barely even notices 'us timeliners'.

Are historians not allowed to exist in Zelda games unless they're a parody of a small, western-based portion of the fanbase?

Besides, if Shad WAS a parody, then surely your opinion on Shad's place in the timeline should not be trusted, for you are a 'timeliner'. It's a paradox, you can't win.

Edited by Fyxe, 03 May 2007 - 02:53 PM.

[LionHarted]

Shad's character is Nintendo's way of poking fun us timeliners, which would make him less than credible, indeed.

Even if he was designed to poke fun at us timeliners, adding in a completely outrageous fact to completely throw us off-base would do the job better than making some sources uncredible. After all, if Shad is uncredible, who knows who else is uncredible?

[Hero of Legend]

That's a rather egotistical thought. I don't buy it. I really doubt anyone even gives a monkeys or barely even notices 'us timeliners'.

Of course they do. Aonuma has pledged to solve the timeline, and we already have tons and tons of details and easter eggs implemented specifically for fans that would bother with them. Shad, I simply consider to be our representative in the game.

And don't think I'm being patronizing. I have little good to say about this 'group' of ours. Still, we are both posting here, so I assume we are in fact 'timeliners'.

Are historians not allowed to exist in Zelda games unless they're a parody of a small, western-based portion of the fanbase?

They could have made him less, you know, wrong. And western-based? Is that why Aonuma mentions the timeline in every interview with the Japanese press?

Besides, if Shad WAS a parody, then surely your opinion on Shad's place in the timeline should not be trusted, for you are a 'timeliner'. It's a paradox, you can't win.

I am a fan, who might be either wrong or right about this. I think I have enough evidence to suspect that I am right, however.

Even if he was designed to poke fun at us timeliners, adding in a completely outrageous fact to completely throw us off-base would do the job better than making some sources uncredible. After all, if Shad is uncredible, who knows who else is uncredible?

Isn't that what this is? In every game since ALttP we have been told the Hylians are the chosen people of the gods. They were created by the goddesses, in their image, and were the only race capable of communing directly with them. Now Twilight Princess tells us this is not so.

Now, that is a pretty big turnaround in itself, but the way this is presented definitely makes me wonder. See, Shad (and Rusl) are right about some things: The Oocca certainly exist, they did built the City in the Sky and (helped build the) Temple of Time. But Shad is also wrong about a lot of things: He doesn't know what the Oocca really are or if they even exist, he has no idea how the ancient statues work, and he himself admits he is simply theorizing and has been wrong before (as was his father, if I recall). Overall, he is presented as a good-hearted but confused historian. You can't just trust him even if he isn't a parody.

But there is also the way the game presents the Oocca. Those 'wise and enlightened' creatures? Yeah, just comical relief character Ooccoo and her ilk. This was definitely meant to throw off the player. The fact that the Oocco, even after this just don't seem very smart or capable at all isn't exactly helping.

So, I dunno about you, but I say its all just a big joke. Nothing wrong with that, and the Oocca accomplish what they were meant to, but I don't believe this 'creation' stuff was ever meant to be serious.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 May 2007 - 03:28 PM.

[LionHarted]

Isn't that what this is? In every game since ALttP we have been told the Hylians are the chosen people of the gods. They were created by the goddesses, in their image, and were the only race capable of communing directly with them. Now Twilight Princess tells us this is not so.

1) Yep. They are the chosen people of the gods.
2) Nope. It never was really said that they were created by the goddesses.
3) Nope. They were never the only race capable of communicating with the gods. But because they were the chosen people, they were given telepathic abilities, or, rather, ears that could hear the voices of the gods.

So, really, nothing was defied whatsoever.

And, really, Shad wasn't all that off-base. He just didn't have the Dominion Rod. How was he supposed to know what the statues were for?

Edited by LionHarted, 03 May 2007 - 03:33 PM.

[provehito]

I still find it insanely interesting that the Hylians were genetically derived from the Oocca while also being created by them.

[Hero of Legend]

2) Nope. It never was really said that they were created by the goddesses.

They are said to have created all life. You do the math, Einstein.

3) Nope. They were never the only race capable of communicating with the gods. But because they were the chosen people, they were given telepathic abilities, or, rather, ears that could hear the voices of the gods.

Give me one example where it says any other race has ever been able to commune with the gods.

So, really, nothing was defied whatsoever.

Except it was. How can a chosen race be created by someone other than the gods? And how come they still look like Hylians (sort of)?

And, really, Shad wasn't all that off-base. He just didn't have the Dominion Rod. How was he supposed to know what the statues were for?

Nintendo could have made Link tell Shad about the Dominion Rod. They didn't for a reason, so that's no excuse.

[LionHarted]

They are said to have created all life. You do the math, Einstein.

They did create all life.

Then evolution happened.

Give me one example where it says any other race has ever been able to commune with the gods.

Give me one quote saying they were the "only" race capable of it. That was what I was refuting, by the way.

How can a chosen race be created by someone other than the gods?

By being created by someone else.

Nintendo could have made Link tell Shad about the Dominion Rod. They didn't for a reason, so that's no excuse.

Nintendo could have made Shad incorrect, as well.

But we don't know that they did, so saying he's wrong really just means "I think this canon source is unreliable", which I could then say for any source, using the same justification.

[Hero of Legend]

They did create all life.

Then evolution happened.

Hylians were never said to have evolved.

Give me one quote saying they were the "only" race capable of it. That was what I was refuting, by the way.

I don't need to. When an unnatural ability is introduced, we do not need to be told that every other creature doesn't posses this ability in order for it to be evident.

By being created by someone else.

But then you are the chosen people of your creators, not the gods.

Nintendo could have made Shad incorrect, as well.

But we don't know that they did, so saying he's wrong really just means "I think this canon source is unreliable", which I could then say for any source, using the same justification.

And what’s wrong with that? If a character is wrong, he's wrong. If we have reason to believe something is not correct, we have reason to believe it isn't correct.

[LionHarted]

Hylians were never said to have evolved.

The Oocca, who are not Hylian, are their ancestors (until proven otherwise). Do the math.

When an unnatural ability is introduced, we do not need to be told that every other creature doesn't posses this ability in order for it to be evident.

Other creatures do possess telepathy. Namely Saria, and apparently all other sages.

But then you are the chosen people of your creators, not the gods.

The gods can choose you regardless of whether or not they create you.

And what’s wrong with that? If a character is wrong, he's wrong. If we have reason to believe something is not correct, we have reason to believe it isn't correct.

I have reason to believe that there is a single timeline, and that the Adult events of Ocarina of Time no longer carry over into TWW, instead being replaced by the TP sealing.

Disprove me.

[Hero of Legend]

The Oocca, who are not Hylian, are their ancestors (until proven otherwise). Do the math.

Thus, they defied previous games.

Other creatures do possess telepathy. Namely Saria, and apparently all other sages.

Since when was telepathy what enabled the Hylians to hear the gods? You just made that up.

The gods can choose you regardless of whether or not they create you.

Yes, but it is implied by the very nature of the word that they did create their own people. Since you are such a fan of real mythology, I could point out that's how it goes in practically all religions.

I have reason to believe that there is a single timeline, and that the Adult events of Ocarina of Time no longer carry over into TWW, instead being replaced by the TP sealing.

Disprove me.

Aonuma said differently, and you have no reason to believe that anyway.

Idiot.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 May 2007 - 04:27 PM.

[LionHarted]

Thus, they defied previous games.

How?

Since when was telepathy what enabled the Hylians to hear the gods?

I'm fairly certain since the ALttP manual.

Yes, but it is implied by the very nature of the word that they did create their own people.

Nope. They just "chose" them.

They "chose" Link, too, but he was obviously born by natural means. I doubt the goddesses shot him down from the heavens.

Since you are such a fan of real mythology, I could point out that's how it goes in practically all religions.

Since I am a follower of real religion, I know that God exercises His plan through His creation. Evolution is an example of this.

[Hero of Legend]

How?

Other games made them out to have been created by the gods. Contradiction.

I'm fairly certain since the ALttP manual.

Except telepathy was just one of the Hylians' powers. Their ability to commune with the gods was another.

Nope. They just "chose" them.

And they received their special powers, how?

They "chose" Link, too, but he was obviously born by natural means. I doubt the goddesses shot him down from the heavens.

Link's chosen since before his birth, obviously. The whole destiny thing. Not to mention reincarnation.

Since I am a follower of real religion, I know that God exercises His plan through His creation. Evolution is an example of this.

Since I'm not, I know you're wrong.

[LionHarted]

Other games made them out to have been created by the gods. Contradiction.

Quote?

Except telepathy was just one of the Hylians' powers. Their ability to commune with the gods was another.

Regardless, Saria and all the sages, as well as everyone that fled to the mountaintops during the flood, communicate with the gods.

And they received their special powers, how?

From the gods.

Link's chosen since before his birth, obviously. The whole destiny thing. Not to mention reincarnation.

The Hylians were chosen before their birth, obviously.

Since I'm not, I know you're wrong.

Since you're not, you'd be an unreliable source on information regarding the underlying spiritual tenets of religion.

OH SNAP.

Isn't that your argument against Shad being a reliable source?

[Hero of Legend]

Quote?

Find it yourself you lazy bum. I know it exists, in Ocarina's creation myth.

Regardless, Saria and all the sages, as well as everyone that fled to the mountaintops during the flood, communicate with the gods.

And how do you know this? Auru tells the "ancient creators of Hyrule" to open the way to the SR, but even if they are the goddesses, it’s not like he got any feedback from them.

From the gods.

That didn't create them? Right.

The Hylians were chosen before their birth, obviously.

Except that's totally different, and you know it.

Since you're not, you'd be an unreliable source on information regarding the underlying spiritual tenets of religion.

OH SNAP.

I know enough about religion to see it for what it truly is.

Isn't that your argument against Shad being a reliable source?

Nope. That's him being incorrect in-game.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 May 2007 - 05:05 PM.

[LionHarted]

Find it yourself you lazy bum. I know it exists, in Ocarina's creation myth.

"Before time began, before spirits and life existed, three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule: Din, the goddess of power; Nayru, the goddess of wisdom; Farore, the goddess of courage. Din, with her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land and created the red earth. Nayru poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world. Farore, with her rich soul, produced all life forms who would uphold the law.

The three great goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world. Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm. He who claims the golden triangles as his own shall have his desires granted by the gods."

Try again.

And how do you know this?

Right. So when the TWW sages are praying for the goddesses to restore the Master Sword's power, and the power is restored, it wasn't because of the gods at all.

That didn't create them? Right.

I gave my baby brother a candle for his birthday. I didn't create him.

Except that's totally different, and you know it.

Right. So individuals being given power before birth is different than individuals being given power before birth. Wonderful.

I know enough about religion to see it for what it truly is.

Irrelevant. Whether or not religion is true, you cannot debate matters of religious belief if you ignore the tenets, which is what you're doing.

Nope. That's him being incorrect in-game.

He is correct. You have not shown me anything to suggest the contrary, other than "I think he's wrong."

[SOAP]

By opting not to quote one guy saying the same thing twice? Please, what Rusl said in the bar proved nothing more than the fact that you were wrong about who said what.

HoL. Seriously tone down the arrogance. It proves that I did hear something about the Oocca being the ancestors of the Hylian from someone other than Shad at Telma's bar. I did not make it up. Yeah I got the name wrong so what? Who cares. The quote is in there as I thought it'd be.

[Duke Serkol]

They also have a lot of similarities to creatures that are tradititionally close to gods in mythology, such as the bird of Hermes (which, if you look it up, is portrayed in a virtually identical manner to the Oocca).

I can't seem to find them with Google. Can you give a link?

It seems that everyone who dislikes the Oocca being the first creatures created by the goddesses are people who simply don't like the Oocca, therefore their opinion is biased.

I don't mind them having come first one bit, I dislike them because of the whole "ancestor/creator" thing and since their city seems to me out of place in the game (unlike say, the Wind Tribe's building which I did like).