93 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

Okay, I think I get what hero of legend is going at. The gorons originated when the Gods animated rock and created the biological species goron. I can accept that, although it is different from my theory on the goron's origin.

I would also like to comment on what Nimiety said about creation. I think evolution still happens in Hyrule, the laws of natural selection still apply to magic enhanced biology.

[Hero of Legend]

They have the same origin as everything else in Hyrule. "Let there be light."

Yes, and your point is? Clearly, all races were not created to be the same, so that's a null point.

Are the "woodland faeries" merely leaves brought to life by the Deku Tree? Are the people of the plains merely bits of charcoal brought to life by the goddesses? There's nothing special about carbon to distinguish it from any other element, except that you are made of it.

Again, your point is? It's different because it’s different. The Kokiri are different as well, we know their creation is separate, actually (they are the "spirits" of the world, apparently), but we aren't discussing them here.

You implicitly assume that the peoples who are more human in appearance somehow had a different, less supernatural beginning. That assumption is completely and entirely baseless, and your view of these fictional characters is horribly species-centric. As far as you know, the Gorons are carbon based, and the Hylia may very well have been moulded out of antacid tablets.

That is an assumption that is not implied by the game. Mine is, whether you like it or not. Again, a race made of animate stone is not something uncommon in fantasy. And no, I do not believe the humans of Zelda have any more or less magic as part of their creation than any other race. I simply believe that, because the world was created before life, life was created from the world (in fact, we see this in OoT's creation myth). Is this a silly thing to discuss? Maybe in your opinion, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is either true or false, and thereby a subject of discussion.

No, we'll have non-organic life, and a new branch of biology. Life is life is life. It's well defined, and the study of any living object, whether they're made of carbon compounds or uranium, is biology.

Again, define life. If you go by the standard definition, you will find machines do not fit enough criteria to be considered living (just like Viruses do not). AI satiates even less. If you have any sort of official definition that would compensate all (sentient, in this case) organisms, then do share, because you haven't so far.

Defining life as a "biologic organism" would make the definition circular, as "biologic" means "dealing with life".

Indeed, I do believe that is what the current definition is.

So, if we find silicon-based life out there, that was generated via abiogenesis and evolved using well understood natural principles, you wouldn't consider it to be on par with carbon-based life? Even though the chemistry is really very similar?

On par? That depends. It wouldn't be inferior by nature, if that's what you're asking. It would, however, have a completely different origin from carbon based life, and thus I would make a distinct difference between them, as would all biologists.

I mean, you're delving into deep philosophy here. You're pretty much dismissing any life that has chemically different origins than yourself as being inconsequential.

Did I say that? No.

No, again, since we don't know what elements they're made of -- carbon, silicon, triforcium, it's all speculation -- you're dismissing any life that is aesthetically different from you.

Again, it wasn't I who designed the Gorons to be human-like and then said they were made of rock. Yes, rock. Assume differently and you are denying canon. That's all I'm saying. I don't know where you got this biological discrimination from, but it’s false.

started the argument, yes. I did so because you're throwing words around willy nilly and trying to sway peoples opinions by using the word "fact" in ways it was never meant to be used. If you don't want what you say scrutinized, don't post it publicly.

Actually, SOAP started the argument. And you can scrutinize all you want, my point was that you said it was odd to bring this up when dealing with a creationist world, but I say, take it to Nintendo, they were the ones who did it. If they say the Gorons are made of stone and the other races aren't, it’s not like your little creationist argument will change that.

I think evolution still happens in Hyrule, the laws of natural selection still apply to magic enhanced biology.

Yes, the Rito prove that, I'd say.

[SOAP]

Actually, SOAP started the argument. And you can scrutinize all you want, my point was that you said it was odd to bring this up when dealing with a creationist world, but I say, take it to Nintendo, they were the ones who did it. If they say the Gorons are made of stone and the other races aren't, it’s not like your little creationist argument will change that.

Hey don't be pointing fingers now. All I did was comment about how the various races of Hyrule could all be human, except for the Zora (and the Kokiri who I forgot to mention). Actually I was building off what someone said earlier. And the Gorons were a big maybe. My original point was that Gerudo, the Sheikah, and the Hylians were all most definately humans, therefoire shouldn't be considered a whole different species from regular humans.

[Hero of Slime]

I started the argument. Every time a thread turns into disscussion of Zelda biology, I am the cause.

[SOAP]

Actually it's not surprising that shipper thread turned into biology debate. It used to happen all the time when flame wars between the various shippers were in full swing back in OoT's hay day. But neither Ilia and Link are Gorons so why does Goron biology even matter? I don't care if they're made of rocks or not.

Edited by SOAP, 22 March 2007 - 08:09 AM.

[Nimiety]

I wouldn't mind having the thread split. I have more to say on the subject (later, when I have more time), and I regret pulling the discussion so off topic already.

[Showsni]

Your wish is my command... Been a while since I split a thread, so bear with me...

[Hero of Slime]

My belief is that Gorons are mammalian and are evolved from other mammalian species. Their traits such as the rock plates on thier bodies and their abiliities to eat rocks and survive at high temperatures are addaptations for life in the mountains.

I have a theory about how magic relates to biology. The life forms of Hyrule have magic in their genes. this magic is responsible for the phisical inheirted traits that appear to be supper natural. This is what allows the Gorons to grow rock forms from their bodies, what allows the Gerudo to produce only one male every hundred years, and what allowed a few of the Zora to evolve so much so quickly.

[Kairu Hakubi]

I used to think the gorons were just rocky animals, not completely made of rock,... but TP seems to have changed them.. Almost messes with canon, since this time not only can they survive water, but THRIVE in it. However I think the MM gorons didn't -drown- so much as just sink to the bottom and could never get back out (Like the dude in zora's domain).. But at this point it's clear that gorons explicitly don't need air to breathe. The little kid is like "i'm trying to hold my breath underwater but strangely I never seem to need air" so... the gorons probably think they're organic creatures, but they aren't... or maybe they aren't anymore.

[Koroks Rock]

Heh heh... maybe those little volcanoes are hot enough to cause fision in the water around them, and voila, you have oxygen for them to breathe, as well as an ample supply of hydrogen XD

(Hey, it makes as much sense as some of the other stuff in Zelda)

[Kairu Hakubi]

well, -electricity- will do that. Maybe they have bioelectricity somewhere inside? XD .. or just gills.
Still, that one guy survived fine trapped inside a big chunk of lava, for like.. weeks.. so..

[Chaltab]

I think the kid in the spring saying that he never seemed to need air was a joke based on the fact that the water level was above his head. He'd still need air to talk, after all.

As for the one trapped in the big rock... Well, your guess is as good as mine on that one.

[The Missing Link]

Or maybe Hyrulian biology doesn't work the same as Earth biology. :þ

[Nimiety]

I think the whole kid not needing to breathe in the spring thing is telling us that Gorons can breathe through their little volcano vents. The top of his head is, after all, above water, with a gaping hole leading down into his skull. Maybe his mother was a dolphin?

And Gorons in MM didn't die unless the water went over their head. They're heavy, and can't swim, seems to be the implication. But none of the Gorons in TP are swimming. They just hang out in the springs, with their heads most noticeably above water (with the sole example of Dolphin Head mentioned above). Meanwhile, Gorons in WW are non-existent, which is perfectly in line with MM (though they don't explain why the Gorons didn't just move up to a higher point on the mountain they already live on).

[Fyxe]

Meanwhile, Gorons in WW are non-existent,

Wroooong. There's a few selling things out in various places on the Great Sea, remember?

[Nimiety]

Wroooong. There's a few selling things out in various places on the Great Sea, remember?

Uh, no. No I don't. Wikipedia makes it quite clear, though, that I completely missed them when playing WW.

Wups?

[The Missing Link]

[Edit: Completely misread your post. Just ignore me.]

Edited by The Missing Link, 27 March 2007 - 10:55 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Wikipedia sucks for Zelda information, bub.

[Hero of Legend]

They just hang out in the springs, with their heads most noticeably above water (with the sole example of Dolphin Head mentioned above).

And what about the Goron that is trapped inside the volcanic rock in Zora's Domain? Seriously, this entire things reeks of blatant ignorance. "Shit, the little kid says he doesn't need to breath! Let's make up arbitrary explanations for it!" Yeah, how about simply accepting that Gorons don't actually need air? Because, I dunno, they are made of stone like the game says, perhaps? Bah...

[Chaltab]

And what about the Goron that is trapped inside the volcanic rock in Zora's Domain? Seriously, this entire things reeks of blatant ignorance. "Shit, the little kid says he doesn't need to breath! Let's make up arbitrary explanations for it!" Yeah, how about simply accepting that Gorons don't actually need air? Because, I dunno, they are made of stone like the game says, perhaps? Bah...

And once again, if they were made of stone literally, then they wouldn't need to eat, sleep, or stretch their muscles.

Edited by Chaltab, 28 March 2007 - 06:34 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Dude, the people working on the game didn't think this out. They didn't try to make the Gorons make perfect sense in our world. They seem to have decided that Gorons don't need to breath, so I guess Gorons don't need to breath. They decided Gorons eat rocks, so Gorons eat rocks. Some parts of Zora anatomy suggest that they're mammals, but for the most part they seem to be fish. The races don't make sense if you think about them too much because the people that created the races didn't put that much thought into them. As such, I find it perfectly acceptable that sentient beings that are literally made of stone need to eat, sleep, or stretch their muscles, at least if those sentient beings happen to live in Hyrule.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 28 March 2007 - 07:50 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Dude, there's more messed up things than the Gorons, stop making a hissy about it. I'm with Jerry on this one.

For example, the Gerudo. Figure those gals out.

No wait, don't. We don't need another one of those threads.

[Hero of Slime]

We need as many biology threads as we can get. I know there are a lot of people here who want to discuss aspects of the Zelda world other than the timeline. And gerudo biology is easy to figure out compared to this thing with the gorons.

[BourgeoisJerry]

There is no biology in hyrule. There are facts, such as Gorons being made of rocks and Gerudo having one male every 100 years, but there are no biological reasons for those facts. I can understand having threads to establish the facts, but threads about biology are pointless because the races simply don't make sense.

Goron: unlike any living creatures in our world, Gorons are made of stone. They eat rocks and don't seem to need to breath.
Zora: fish with mammalian features that, as far as we know, serve no purpose.
Gerudo: women that have a boy every 100 years. That timing seems incredibly unlikely no matter what the odds of a given child being male are.
Kokiri: forest spirits that look like children and seem to be able to reproduce in some way. They die if they leave the forest and always have a fairy around.
Rito: birds that grow wings as a result of a scale from a dragon. They also have mammalian features.
Korok: I wonder what the organs of a sentient plant would be like.
Sheikah: mostly human as far as we know, so I suppose their biology shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Subrosian: Here's a fun one for you to figure out. The only hints we have about their biology are that they're humanoid, capable of speech, and bathe in lava.

Okay, I guess nobody's talking about the Subrosians, but you get my point. I'm not saying the timeline is the only aspect of Zelda we need to be talking about, but trying to figure out the biology in Hyrule is a lost cause. We may as well try figuring out the blueprints for Samus' power suit.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 30 March 2007 - 12:18 AM.

[Tekky]

Subrosian: Here's a fun one for you to figure out. The only hints we have about their biology are that they're humanoid, capable of speech, and bathe in lava.

Oh, and they go on dates with the opposite sex

[Kairu Hakubi]

I still think the gorons just ape being "alive" in the biological sense, because they don't know anything else. Obviously if you're going to "animate" some golems, they're going to have to act like something, and the only thing to act like is living creatures. You simply couldn't interact with them, understand them in any way, unless they put on what looked like biological functions, such as talking, blinking eyes, and having what kinda looks like muscles and mammary glands..
Well I guess what it comes down to is that they're either some kind of animal-rock hybrid (I won't toss it out) OR we have a "one-that-acts-like-the-other" situation.. so they're either biological creatures that seem rocklike or rock creatures that seem biological.. which one is innate and which is the behavior? that should be pretty clear, since their nature betrays itself to our knowledge repeatedly.

[Kamina]

Question: Who did say that the occa made the Hylians, and when? I thaught the Hylians are the chosen race of the gods, so why are they made by the Occa? And how can chicken-like creatures make a Hylian?

[Showsni]

Shad in TP said it.
Perhaps he's just delusional.

[Duke Serkol]

Or wrong. But seriously guys, I think what that means is they created (or helped in) the Hylian civilization. It'd make lots of sense to read it that way since dungeons like Arbiter's Ground and the Temple of Time contain their technology (the clockworks, the statues...).

[Kamina]

Or wrong. But seriously guys, I think what that means is they created (or helped in) the Hylian civilization. It'd make lots of sense to read it that way since dungeons like Arbiter's Ground and the Temple of Time contain their technology (the clockworks, the statues...).

I agree.

@Gorons are alive/not alive:
Gorons do not look like walking stone ceatures, they look like a race wich needs the minerals of the rocks for their rocky skin.

Edited by Kyuubi no Youko, 02 May 2007 - 02:19 AM.