93 replies to this topic

[Raien]

From reading this page, my two cents:

1) I agree with Lex that the Oocca made the Hylians, simply because the game would not deliberately lie to us without providing at least some suggestion that the previous statement was wrong. Ganondorf is an exception, because his statements are incorrect to make a moralistic point (like "hope will always prevail").

Shad says that the Hylians made the Oocca according to legend. Rusl states in Telma's Bar that the Oocca are the ancestors of the Hylians (although no one seems to have noticed that Rusl would be getting his information from Shad. In TP's ending, they visit the Temple of Time together, if I remember rightly). There is no contradicting information, so I think what the game states directly is correct.


2) The owl (Kaepora Gaebora) in previous Zelda games has merely served to teach Link about new locations, and in some cases, enhance the game storyline. His identity as a reincarnated Sage does not serve the plotline more than what the gossip stone tells us; otherwise his identity would have been told by a much more important character. Also, the first appearance of the owl was in LA, and that was not Kaepora Gaebora.

The choice of the owl is because it represents a knowledgable character in folklore, and it can fly to many different locations. Apart from possessing wings, KG bares no relationship with the Oocca.


3) Whatever reasons people have for disliking the Oocca, they are now a canon part of the timeline all the same. I don't think anything more will be revealed about them in the future, but I am interested to know what cultural or religious backgrounds they have as part of their development. That, in my opinion, is the only useful thing we can learn about them now.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 May 2007 - 09:05 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Try again.

"produced all life forms"

Wow.

Right. So when the TWW sages are praying for the goddesses to restore the Master Sword's power, and the power is restored, it wasn't because of the gods at all.

The gods heard them. That doesn't mean they can hear the gods.

I gave my baby brother a candle for his birthday. I didn't create him.

You did not, however, give him his genetic properties and attributes. His parents, the ones who created him, did.

Right. So individuals being given power before birth is different than individuals being given power before birth. Wonderful.

Except a race can't be born in the same way as an individual.

Irrelevant. Whether or not religion is true, you cannot debate matters of religious belief if you ignore the tenets, which is what you're doing.

Of course I can. I can disprove a tenet, or I can argue from the standpoint that it is true (the "Bible contradicts itself" issue).

He is correct. You have not shown me anything to suggest the contrary, other than "I think he's wrong."

If he was correct, he would have known what to do from the beginning.

[LionHarted]

"produced all life forms"

Wow.

*cough*Rito*cough*

The gods heard them. That doesn't mean they can hear the gods.

Why wouldn't they? Medli has the long ears.

You did not, however, give him his genetic properties and attributes. His parents, the ones who created him, did.

So who created the Hylians? Their parents, or the gods?

Except a race can't be born in the same way as an individual.

Why not? Race (in terms of the physical aspect) is a genetic factor just like everything else pertaining to the individual.

Of course I can. I can disprove a tenet, or I can argue from the standpoint that it is true (the "Bible contradicts itself" issue).

You'd have to prove that the interpretation of the Bible a certain sect uses contradicts itself, which tends to be difficult to do. Anyone can interpret the Bible in such a way that it contradicts itself.

If he was correct, he would have known what to do from the beginning.

Why? Knowing people are descended from the Oocca has no bearing on whether or not you know how to screw with the Oocca's technology.

[Showsni]

Do I have to split the thread again? Meh. Maybe tomorrow. Too tired now.

Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods.

But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians.

When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.

Shad himself puts forwards two different, conflicting legends - one saying the Hyliasn are closest to the gods, the other saying the Oocca are closer. He doesn't even mention to which view he subscribes. We have two different, conflicting sources of information from him - we can choose to believe either on his evidence alone, and must therefore look elsewhere. Shad tells us nothing other than there are two possible choices for us to look at.

Some say there is an ancient temple deep in the woods that guards a sacred power.

The ancestors of the Hylians created the temple... Signs of their civilization - ancient, but very sophisticated - are everywhere.

Rusl says that according to what "some say" there's a temple in the wood built by ancestors of the Hylians. The Oocca aren't ever mentioned as being these ancestors, though, by anyone else, and indeed don't seem to be known in general at all. So what could be more natural than people finding these ancient ruins, and assuming they were made by an ancient, advanced civilization that came beforehand? If signs of this civilization are everywhere, then people would want to find an explanation for it.
Perhaps the legends alluded to by Shad even inspired some of the beliefs the people had, so that some do believe the Oocca created the temple, but due to a slightly different legend, or distortions over time, they portray them as ancestors rather than creators.

So what do we have to look at? Some old legends, which seem to have slightly different versions and are outright conflicted by other old legends that we're told of by Shad. That's not enough to beat OoT's claim that Farore made all life forms, and continual statements throughout the series that the Hylians are closest to the gods.
We also have the evidence of the technological marvels created by the Oocca. They certainly don't seem very advanced at present; indeed, they're stupid enough to get stuck in small pots and order in useless supplies to their shops. So it must be their ancestors that bult the marvels; or, at least, that's what their legends claim. Being clever enough to build something like the dominion rod doesn't mean they could have created a race of people, though. The Hylians themselves created something with even more powers (the Wind Waker, for instance, can act as a dominion rod as well as many other things).