93 replies to this topic

[Travuko]

Who said they had to be different species? I mean, all that's mentioned is that they are different races. Why can't they all be human, just different breeds. Not that I'm saying the characters in Zelda are all dogs, but like dogs, different breeds can look very different from each other but they can still mate.

[SOAP]

The Gorons could be human. They have nipples, therefore are mammals, therefore human. Hylians, the Wind Tribe, the Rito, and the Gerudo are definately humans to varrying degrees. But the Zora are kinda a stretch. Ruto and Rutella do have breasts though...

Weren't the Twili once humans? We don't know what they once were but in Midna's true form, I don't see how a relationship between her and Link wouldn't work. At least she's not a Zora. They lay eggs.

[Hero of Legend]

Who said they had to be different species? I mean, all that's mentioned is that they are different races. Why can't they all be human, just different breeds. Not that I'm saying the characters in Zelda are all dogs, but like dogs, different breeds can look very different from each other but they can still mate.

Certainly, it is a fact that Hylians are a breed of humans and that they can mate with other humanoids. However, it is also a fact that their origin is completely separate from any other race of Hyrule, be they the chosen people of the goddesses or the creations of the Oocca. That makes them a different species.

The Gorons could be human. They have nipples, therefore are mammals, therefore human.

Yeah, like every mammal is human...

And nipples? Come on. Gorons aren't anything but animate stone. They aren't human. They aren't even biological. This is a simple fact. Appealing character designs aren't exactly anatomically correct.

However Link and Midna could be too, Midna's true form could be human.

Well, obviously the Twili have evolved past the human stage. They are half-shadows by the time of TP. Still, they might be able to reproduce with humans, if that makes any difference to you.

I didn't get a change to read what was said about me, but what does my religion have to with Zelda? I only am creeped out by the idea of cross species relations.

It did back when you first brought it up...

[SOAP]

Are they really made of stone? They just seem really callused with stone-like growths coming out their backs head. They just have the reputation of being made of stone but I don't think it's literal. It's more metaphorical just like saying someone has a heart of stone.

[SnowsilverKat]

Well, they do eat and digest rocks -

See, I always thought the minerals they consumed would make deposits in their skin which would make them in effect made of stone themselves, in a way. I never really thought about if they were mammals or not.

[Hero of Legend]

Are they really made of stone?

One of the Goron elders has a small (active) volcano on his back – So, yes. What reason do we have to doubt what the game says anyway? It's not like we think "Forest Spirit" is metaphorical or something...

[Hero of Slime]

Now I have not explored every aspect of TP, so where does it say exactly that the gorons are not alive and are merely animated rock? I know it's not in any of the previous games, looking at the gorons it is highly suggested that they are alive.

[Hero of Legend]

Being alive is not the same thing as being made by flesh and blood. Magic can do wonders, if you get me. Dwarves, for example, are traditionally said to have been created from rock.

And as for your question:

Strong as you are, though, you can't hope to beat the Gorons wrestlin' with power alone. Those Gorons are made of rock!

Seems fairly basic to me.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 March 2007 - 06:09 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Sounds metophorical to me. A human talking about the strength of the Gorons.

[Hero of Legend]

Which he can beat with the Iron Boots, so why the metaphors?

Bah, the games have always made it apparent the Gorons were made of stone. That is why they have miniature volcanoes on their backs, can survive in lava, and eat rocks as nourishment. Darmani Link and his apparent rock-body (when rolling, shielding, or just going into water) makes this blatantly apparent as well. We shouldn't even need Bo's quote to conclude this.

[Hero of Slime]

But it never says they are not alive or biological. Parts of thier bodies are made of stone but the other parts like their skin and eyes are made of regular tissue. The gorons have probably evolve a way to grow the stone over their backs as a way to survive in the mountains. The fact that they must eat shows they are alive.

[Showsni]

Certainly, it is a fact that Hylians are a breed of humans and that they can mate with other humanoids. However, it is also a fact that their origin is completely separate from any other race of Hyrule, be they the chosen people of the goddesses or the creations of the Oocca. That makes them a different species.

Neither of those methods necessarily make them different species. They're the chosen people of the gods; but they're still people. There's nothing there that would make them a different species. (See the Israelites in the Old Testament. Not bringing up religion, but it's an easy parallel.)
And made by the Ooca; there's nothing to say all the other humans weren't made by the Ooca at the same time.

And Gorons are alive. What's the acronym? MRS. GREN?
Movement: tick.
Respiration: well, they can drown, so tick.
Sensitivity: tick.
Growth: tick.
Reproduction: tick.
Excretion: unknown.
Nutrition: tick.

Excretion is the only iffy one, and it seems nothing in the Zelda world really obeys that one.

This isn't to say they aren't made of rock, though. It's magic.

[SnowsilverKat]

Also, another good argument that Gorons are alive - they can die.

[Showsni]

Respiration: well, they can drown, so tick.

Although that one in TP doesn't, does he? But Darmani Link does... Contradiction.

[Tekky]

Does he actually drown though? You dont lose any health from it, presumably you go back to the start as you cant do anything underwater!!

[Hero of Legend]

But it never says they are not alive or biological. Parts of thier bodies are made of stone but the other parts like their skin and eyes are made of regular tissue. The gorons have probably evolve a way to grow the stone over their backs as a way to survive in the mountains. The fact that they must eat shows they are alive.

Like I said, there is a difference between being alive and being of biological origin. Technology can create life out of metal, magic can do it out of stone. Again, I point to the Dwarves. So I ask you, what reason do we have to doubt Bo? It's a magic world, after all.

This isn't to say they aren't made of rock, though. It's magic.

Exactly my point.

Neither of those methods necessarily make them different species. They're the chosen people of the gods; but they're still people. There's nothing there that would make them a different species. (See the Israelites in the Old Testament. Not bringing up religion, but it's an easy parallel.) And made by the Ooca; there's nothing to say all the other humans weren't made by the Ooca at the same time.

Yes, the Hylians are human, by all means. However, unlike the Israelites, who were chosen by God a long time after the creation of the world, Hylians were always the chosen people, and they were created in the image of the goddesses (before TP was made, anyway). That does make them as different as any other species in Hyrule. And as for the Oocca, we are never told they created any other race, so I assume they didn't.

[Hero of Slime]

Being alive means being biological, the gorons could not grow, reproduce, feed, breath, or produce waste if they were not biological. We are never told of anyone creating the gorons out of stone. Bo's comment in metophorical about thier strength, not a direct reference to their entire composition. It's true they do have rock parts integrated into their bodies, but parts like their skin and eyes are obviously not rock.

The non-Hylian humans could have evolved from the hylians after the hylians were created by the oocca.

[Hero of Legend]

Being alive means being biological

That depends on the definition.

the gorons could not grow, reproduce, feed, breath, or produce waste if they were not biological. We are never told of anyone creating the gorons out of stone. Bo's comment in metophorical about thier strength, not a direct reference to their entire composition. It's true they do have rock parts integrated into their bodies, but parts like their skin and eyes are obviously not rock.

All opinion. There is still much more evidence for than there is against. There are assumptions in that line too, of course, but it’s still quite a bit more probable given the information we have.

The non-Hylian humans could have evolved from the hylians after the hylians were created by the oocca.

Could have... But probably didn't, since the Gerudo also were one of the races created by the goddesses, as stated by the Hylian text in TWW's intro.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 March 2007 - 01:35 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Tell me if the gorons are not alive who is the one who commands the magic that creates them? If that is the case why do they eat( if they have no digestive system), how are they able to reproduce (if they have no reproductive system), how are they able to breath( if they have no lungs), and how do they grow. There is nothing in the games that suggests the gorons are not alive.

[Nimiety]

Would someone mind pointing out the difference between being alive and being biological for me?

[Arturo]

There is none.

[Nimiety]

There is none.

Thank you.

Specifically what I want to bring attention to is this, from the American Heritage Dictionary:

bi·ol·o·gy (bī-ŏl'ə-jē)
n.

1. The science of life and of living organisms, including their structure, function, growth, origin, evolution, and distribution. It includes botany and zoology and all their subdivisions.
2. The life processes or characteristic phenomena of a group or category of living organisms: the biology of viruses.
3. The plant and animal life of a specific area or region.

What that life is comprised of is of zero consequence. Life is biological by the very definition of biology.

[Koroks Rock]

H'okay. Gorons have muscles, which is established by the bending and flexing that so many of them do. I assume this means that they have sarcolemma, sarcoplasm, myofibrils, myoneural junctions, and the rest of the basics that make up muscles. This places them as animals, as far as I am concerned. Magic is probably involved in maintaining their rocky augments, now that TP has introduced the active-lava issue. In the past most people assumed they were just rocky-looking, like so many lizards that camoflage themselves as rocks. But I guess the rocks are actually rocks now.

Doesn't matter. Gorons have all of MRS. GREN (we know they excrete because of the diaper on the baby, pictured below). We also know they grow hair, including facial- toss on the nipples and we can assume that at one point they were mammals. OoT tells us that long ago they ate foods other than rocks, though we don't know if they were omnivorous or otherwise (minervorous?). Oh, another thing, the tattoos in TP look like good old fashioned tattoos, not spray paint- to do that they need skin.


---

I personally quite liked Ilia. Not as much as I liked Malon, but Ilia was still a sweet girl. And Link is probably pretty comfortable with the idea of hooking up with her- who else in Ordon is available to him? No one, unless you're ok with Link being a pedophile (don't anyone dare make a comment about Saria).

We do have a brief moment in TP where there may have been make-outs. Specifically, the bit where Link and Ilia are in the spirit house (is that the proper place name?) and the other kids have to drag Talo away from the window and the scene fades to black.

[Jumbie]

Would someone mind pointing out the difference between being alive and being biological for me?

I think what Hero of Legend might mean is the way a species came to exist. Earlier he said machines could be alive (like robots, a thought that I occasionally share). All living beings are but biological machines, as I see it. We evolved from simple soap bubbles, are organic beings. Probably that's what he means: organic = biological, whereas mineral/metallic =/= biological.

[Nimiety]

I think what Hero of Legend might mean is the way a species came to exist. Earlier he said machines could be alive (like robots, a thought that I occasionally share). All living beings are but biological machines, as I see it. We evolved from simple soap bubbles, are organic beings. Probably that's what he means: organic = biological, whereas mineral/metallic =/= biological.

Which is a fine distinction when discussing biology and evolution in the real world, but it's fairly heavily implied that the people of Hyrule came about via special creation, i.e. by the will of the gods. It seems odd to bring up the distinction between carbon-based life and silicate-based life when it's all magic-based life.

[Hero of Legend]

OoT tells us that long ago they ate foods other than rocks, though we don't know if they were omnivorous or otherwise (minervorous?).

That's new to me. Where is this said?

Anyway people, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying here. Yes, the Gorons are alive. I never said otherwise. We are talking origin here. Are they of strictly biological origin, like most (but not all) races of Hyrule? Or are the 'mountain people' inanimate matter brought to life by the goddesses? Again, you can't simply say yes or no based on their current, seemingly life-like characteristics, because magic could simply have made their ancestors alive during the creation of the world, and without further intervention they now live like every other species in Hyrule.

Also, Zol, OoT states that the goddesses created life, and their power still sustain the world. That goes for the Gorons as well, I'd assume.

Specifically what I want to bring attention to is this, from the American Heritage Dictionary:

That definition was written under the assumption that all life is biological (which it is today, as far as we are aware). However, if, say, AI becomes a reality, well, then it's non-biological “life”. Unless you define life as biologic organisms, at which point another word must be used.

I think what Hero of Legend might mean is the way a species came to exist. Earlier he said machines could be alive (like robots, a thought that I occasionally share). All living beings are but biological machines, as I see it. We evolved from simple soap bubbles, are organic beings. Probably that's what he means: organic = biological, whereas mineral/metallic =/= biological.

Yes, Jumbie's got it. You are right about us essentially being biological machines, though I'd personally make a difference between carbon based life and whatever other forms of organisms there might be out there.

Which is a fine distinction when discussing biology and evolution in the real world, but it's fairly heavily implied that the people of Hyrule came about via special creation, i.e. by the will of the gods. It seems odd to bring up the distinction between carbon-based life and silicate-based life when it's all magic-based life.

It wasn't I who designed the Gorons and said they were made of rock... Nor did I start this argument.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 March 2007 - 04:41 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

OoT tells us that long ago they ate foods other than rocks, though we don't know if they were omnivorous or otherwise

I think you're confusing "foods other than rocks" with "rocks other than Dodongo's cavern's"

[Nimiety]

[quote name='Hero of Legend' post='308933' date='Mar 20 2007, 05:38 PM'][quote]Anyway people, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying here. Yes, the Gorons are alive. I never said otherwise. We are talking origin here. Are they of strictly biological origin, like most (but not all) races of Hyrule?[/quote]
They have the same origin as everything else in Hyrule. "Let there be light."

[quote]Or are the 'mountain people' inanimate matter brought to life by the goddesses?[/quote]Are the "woodland faeries" merely leaves brought to life by the Deku Tree? Are the people of the plains merely bits of charcoal brought to life by the goddesses? There's nothing special about carbon to distinguish it from any other element, except that you are made of it.

[quote]Again, you can't simply say yes or no based on their current, seemingly life-like characteristics, because magic could simply have made their ancestors alive during the creation of the world, and without further intervention they now live like every other species in Hyrule.[/quote]
You implicitly assume that the peoples who are more human in appearance somehow had a different, less supernatural beginning. That assumption is completely and entirely baseless, and your view of these fictional characters is horribly species-centric. As far as you know, the Gorons are carbon based, and the Hylia may very well have been moulded out of antacid tablets.


[quote]That definition was written under the assumption that all life is biological (which it is today, as far as we are aware). However, if, say, AI becomes a reality, well, then it's non-biological “life”.[/quote]No, we'll have non-organic life, and a new branch of biology. Life is life is life. It's well defined, and the study of any living object, whether they're made of carbon compounds or uranium, is biology.

[quote]Unless you define life as biologic organisms, at which point another word must be used.[/quote]
Defining life as a "biologic organism" would make the definition circular, as "biologic" means "dealing with life".

[quote]Yes, Jumbie's got it. You are right about us essentially being biological machines, though I'd personally make a difference between carbon based life and whatever other forms of organisms there might be out there.[/quote]So, if we find silicon-based life out there, that was generated via abiogenesis and evolved using well understood natural principles, you wouldn't consider it to be on par with carbon-based life? Even though the chemistry is really very similar?

I mean, you're delving into deep philosophy here. You're pretty much dismissing any life that has chemically different origins than yourself as being inconsequential.

No, again, since we don't know what elements they're made of -- carbon, silicon, triforcium, it's all speculation -- you're dismissing any life that is aesthetically different from you.

[quote]It wasn't I who designed the Gorons and said they were made of rock... Nor did I start this argument.[/quote]
I started the argument, yes. I did so because you're throwing words around willy nilly and trying to sway peoples opinions by using the word "fact" in ways it was never meant to be used. If you don't want what you say scrutinized, don't post it publicly.

[Fyxe]

*Resists the urge to yell NEEEERRRRDDDDSS really loudly*

¬.¬ What?

[Koroks Rock]

I think you're confusing "foods other than rocks" with "rocks other than Dodongo's cavern's"

Ah, you're right.

We Gorons live on a diet of rocks...
And the most delicious and nutritious rocks around are found in the Dodongo's Cavern! But that seems like ancient history now...
We've become such gourmets that we can't stand to eat rocks from anywhere else!

My bad, I inferred the previous foods in. Other points still stand though.

Edited by Koroks Rock, 20 March 2007 - 10:59 PM.