99 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Is this some sort of jab at your deeming me a TP fanboy? Cuz that's not why I like it better.

No, no. Why did you think that? I dunno if you are aware of this, but SotN is infamous for its horrendous scripting and voice acting. TP meanwhile is excellently scripted/translated by just about any standard. Suffice to say I wouldn't want to switch them for the life of me.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 March 2007 - 02:43 PM.

[FDL]

Oh, I see. I've never played SoTN so I didn't know it was considered horrible in the translation department. I wasn't sure because I sometimes get the feeling that you're not a fan of Twilight Princess, which is fine, but still why I asked.

[spunky-monkey]

Actually, Ganny seems quite fond of the goddess in Twilight Princess. He has their power. Just before he attacks using Zelda, he calls Link and Midna 'faithless fools', I believe.

Exactly right, and I'm thankful someone else noticed this too. TP Ganondorf being saved from the blink of death and chosen to weld the Triforce of Power was probably the source of his arrogance as he believed the Gods were on his side, therefore, how could he possibly lose?

That is pretty similar, actually, although I like TP's better.
He must not like the goddesses considering he took the time to defile the statue of them. Yeah, I'm guessing he dislikes them considering everyone who opposes him is apparently chosen by the gods(the sages, Link).

Then again, Ganondorf may have destroyed it because the Hylians were making false idol statues of the Gods which offended him greatly as he was a chosen one; alas you never know for certain with Nintendo.

[FDL]

Exactly right, and I'm thankful someone else noticed this too. TP Ganondorf being saved from the blink of death and chosen to weld the Triforce of Power was probably the source of his arrogance as he believed the Gods were on his side, therefore, how could he possibly lose?

Except he didn't get it at the brink of death, we don't know that, and it's more likely he already had.

[Fyxe]

Exactly right, and I'm thankful someone else noticed this too. TP Ganondorf being saved from the blink of death and chosen to weld the Triforce of Power was probably the source of his arrogance as he believed the Gods were on his side, therefore, how could he possibly lose?

I wouldn't say that. I don't think it implies that at all. It merely implies that he feels the gods have granted him power, which is true whether he got it himself or got it BY SHEER RANDOMNESS FOR NO REASON.

[Arturo]

But that power is said both by Ganondorf and Zelda to have been reserved for the chosen ones.

[Hero of Slime]

Jack, I was opposed to the high number of dungeons from the start. I prefer and have always prefered MM and TMC to TP and ALttP when in comes to dungeon number. Don't you call me a hypocrite, if you are not going to go back and read my past posts about this.

I agree about not having Ganon as a villan alll the time, Zelda is becoming to much like Mario.

Edited by The Zol, 17 March 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[Fyxe]

Zelda is becoming to much like Mario.

That's actually slightly unfair to Mario. Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario 2 and both of the Mario & Luigi games each have a unique enemy unrelated to Bowser. Super Paper Mario looks to follow the same routine, with Bowser actually being playable.

Artuno, my dislike for the 'divine prank' idea is that it involves the Triforce splitting and transporting itself to the three individuals for no reason whatsoever.

Edited by Fyxe, 17 March 2007 - 05:52 PM.

[Arturo]

But that is what we are told. Even if you dislike it. I dislike it too.

[Hero of Legend]

We are told no such thing. They were chosen in OoT as well, and the Triforce did not split on its own in that game. If they possess their pieces as a result of OoT, they are STILL chosen.

That is what the game is telling us.

[FDL]

We are told no such thing. They were chosen in OoT as well, and the Triforce did not split on its own in that game. If they possess their pieces as a result of OoT, they are STILL chosen.

That is what the game is telling us.

Damn straight.

[Tekky]

But that is what we are told. Even if you dislike it. I dislike it too.

I think what we have to remember is that, yeah it was considered a "divine prank" from the Sages' point of view... I know the context of this isnt relevant (as Ganny was chained to a biiiiiiig rock), but they may not have (e.g.) known about the Sheikah legend of the Triforce splitting if someone whose heart isnt in balance touches it, etc

[Travuko]

Ok, it's really a simple. I've, for a very long time, believed the games were developed with one purpose in mind, to make money. But it's not like that's a bad thing. Every company's purpose is to make money; otherwise they wouldn't be in business. But in contrast, other people create for the sole purpose of sharing their creation with the world with no expectation for monetary compensation. As for the Zelda games, it has always been game play first, story second. The series are known for being revolutionary in game play design, but as this forum is a testament to, the story part seems to leave much to be desired. Which brings me to my "change". If by some divine influence, some mystical force guiding them, some oracle into the future, the creators could have foreseen the direction of the games and allowed for story connectivity. They didn't have to reveal the story all at once in one game. But, why did they have to make some games so contradictory to the others, (*cough*, Wind Waker, *cough*.) But you see, that could never have happened because then the whole story would have to have been written since the beginning and the original creator of The Legend of Zelda maybe didn't know how huge this franchise would become. Oh well, we'll always have A Link to the Past.

[D~N]

phew, for a second there I thought I was dead...
*dodges passing ALttP bullet*

*dead silence*
Are you kidding us D~N?

Sorry, no.

Whole point of the game's goofball humor is it's all just a surreal dream world, one that often brilliantly breaks the fourth wall. XD

I'm slowly discovering this, yeah.

Is there such thing as a perfect Zelda game? Calling Twilight Princess 'perfect' would be an exaggeration simply because:-

1. Storyline that didn't involve kids being carried off by monsters TWICE;
2. Some side-quests as any adventure is hollow without them;
3. Mini-games are essential yet are lacking, seriously there's no horse-back archery in a Zelda game? That's unforgivable Nintendo;
4. No damn wolf howling (am I the only one who found it annoying?);
5. A sense of urgency after Hyrule Castle is frozen;
6. Memorable music - those incorporated Midis were terrible;
7. Better designed or at least more intelligent NPCs - the townspeople repeated their same sentences no matter how far you progressed in the game;
8. Kakariko Village. Because the pathetic excuse for a village we got was virtually void of life

1. Kids being captured made sense both times.
2. It had many side quests. You just had to look for them within the main story.
3. Yeah, it lacked Mini-games. Fortunately for me, I'm fine with a game with low amounts of mini games. The more the merrier, but for me, it could have one side quest and still be okay.
4. Wolf howling was fine for me.
5. Didn't notice this myself, I was too occupied by the sheer awesomeness. Besides, like many people say, the game is too rushed as it is.j
6. Ha, I'm listening to the soundtrack as I type. In fact, the entire soundtrack is on my MP3 player. You'd have to be a fool to call the soundtrack bad. Best overwrold theme yet, best staff credits ever (even more than TWW! that's impressive!) and amazing boss battle themes, just to name a few. All returning songs were fantastically done. Honestly, this is one soundtrack that wont be easy to top.
7. NPC's were lacking in the talkitiveness, but that's because the supporting characters made up for it. Need I remind people of Midna every time a "lack of depth in NPC's" arguement arises? Midna made up for every single character in the game, to be frank. Though, you may think, this is no excuse. And that is true...but I still wont complain.
8. That's because the village of characters that we thought would be in Kakariko village was actually in Ordon. That's where all the NPC's were hiding. And they were all deeper characters than the pathetic NPC's of Winfall Island, no?

TWW > OoT? NONSENSE.

That's not what I meant. I meant TWW > ALttP. WHen I said "it" I meant to compare "it" to TWW, and "it" was ALttP.
For the record, TWW ≤ OoT. They are both fantastic.

Next minute you'll be telling me that my DS will make me financially secure.

No fool would believe that! The DS is anti-money. It repels money like two N. magnets.

You can't halt my rage that easily. Rrrgh.

Calm down, She-Hulk. *braces for impact*

And yet you say TLoZ was perfect.

How many times must I say it, order of playing a game can really make a difference. LoZ was first, and I played it first. Therefore, with nothing to compare it to, I claimed it as perfect, and my mentality about this game carries all the way through today, from so long ago. Plus, it's fun to dive into whenever you want. Games I can pick up and play and have fun = win. That's why OoT is great; sometimes I'll just start a new file and beat the first two temples in 25 minutes. The opposite can be said for ALttP. As hard as I try, I can't get into that game. Why? BEcause I know there are better games.

Waaaait. You can't complain there was no plot then complain it was too confusing. Sahasrahla explains it perfectly, and if you had trouble with the dialogue, the GBA version is translated better than the SNES one.

You're right, I contrdicted myself. The second statement is more acurate; I found it confusing and unclear. I played the GBA one, though...O_o Again, I'm gunna have to place the blame on relativity. I literally played it right after TWW. When you compare the plots of theose two, you REALLY see a difference! TWW is shouting it's plot, and ALttP hides it in the corner of the oversized overworld

Link used to have reddy/browny hair. None of this blonde bimbo nonsense that OoT started. Also, it's an early SNES sprite. Sprites weren't as good back then. Deal wid it. o.o

I liked the brown hair best. TP is going in the right difrection with this; dirty blonde. And, like I said the second time around, the hair color was mre of a "WTF?!" than a reason to complain.

This is what pisses me off the most. The dungeons were NOT repetative or unoriginal. There were a lot of them, but they were neither of those things. Again, you say that TLoZ was great, yet that game has much more repetative dungeons than ALttP ever had. Come on! This was one of the first games on the SNES, the third game in the Zelda series. The jump in quality from the previous two is *massive*.

I think OoT's dungeons are poor in comparison to later games, with the exception of a couple like the Forest Temple, but that's not my problem with the game, because, like ALttP, it was a huge step upwards. Look at the dungeons in TLoZ. They were just square rooms ordered together in such a way to make the dungeon somewhat confusing and difficult, but look at what ALttP introduced. The dungeons are such a leap forward it's insane, and some of them still top the dungeons from the newer games. They're a lot more challenging, for one thing.

I honestly don't know how you see the dungeons as unoriginal. I really don't. The Watergate Dungeon is entirely different to the Palace of Darkness, and what about Skull Woods? That place is crazy, it has tons of entrances that you need to use carefully. In Blind's Hideout the boss won't even appear in his room when you first enter. And the Ice Palace... Oy, that is a mad and VERY ORIGINAL dungeon. Turtle Rock has some nasty little Cane platform puzzles. Ganon's Tower is long and difficult and basically a homage to Death Mountain from the original Zelda.

This is what pisses me off the most. LoZ gave you a handfull of new baddies every dungeon, and you had to discover their weaknesses like a puzzle. With no games before it, this is what made the dungeons original. But in ALttP, I had already seen half of these gad guys. I had already seen half of these puzzle (keeping in mind I played it AFTER OoT, OoX, etc.) Likewise, the jump in quality, to me, is *negative* I found LoZ harder than AlLttP.
And this is the kicker; I remember, in grand total, ONE dungeon from ALttP. ONE! That's Skull Woods, and that's only because it agravated me so much with it's multiple entrances. The rest? Pfft, I remember nothing of them!! TMC's dungeons, having what sounds like similar themes, block ALttP's dungeons from my mind. I could tell you al of the dungeons in any other game, but ALttP, I could not. I could probably even tell you how to get through OoT's dungeons blindfolded. It's just not there in ALttP. THe certain Zelda charm that makes me play the game over and over again, it's not there.

That's stupid, although OoT is overrated so why you think ALttP can't compare to OoT I don't know, but I'll humour you for a moment. Did you compare TLoZ and AoL to OoT and MM? Because those games suffer from the same issues you've pointed out about ALttP much more legitimately, and have more of their own. But nobody in their right mind would call them bad in comparison to the later games in the series.

No, I did the reverse, since that's the order I played them in. Having completed OoT after LoZ, I would probably compare OoT to LoZ, not LoZ to OoT. That may not make sense reading it, but you know what I mean, right? I would look at the improvements that were made from LoZ to OoT. I wouldn't point out things that LoZ was lacking, because it was the first in the series I played, and those ideas weren't thought of yet...Still, to answer your question, yes, I could easily compare the two. While LoZ is a stand-alone-perfect game, when you compare it to OoT, of course you would want to change everything about the game to become OoT...but then there'd be two OoTs...and that's just stupid. LoZ has flaws but they work! The large overwolrd works! The similar dungeons work! All of the things in LoZ, they work, while still being flaws in today's standards. But ALttP...being the third game, has no no exuse to retain the flaws, and make them worse? They could have made the dungeons better, the combat better, the oveworld less maze-like and overly large. They could have fixed all of LoZ's flaws...but like you say: "those games suffer from the same issues you've pointed out about ALttP". You even say here, that ALttP has the same flaws as LoZ! You admit it! And that's just it; ALttP should have carried over these flaws. And, in my opinion, it's only made worse in ALttP. Opinion, mind you.

1991. 2002. 11 year difference, and a massive leap in technology. And ALttP was original. It's just a complete lie to say it's 'less original', given that it essentially introduced many more puzzles into the series, introduced a fighting system that would be present in all the 2D games to come due to it's ease of use and enjoyability, and introduced the dual worlds system and an a plot that's actually worth speaking about to this day.

Pretend all the games were released at the same time. Then compare ALttP to TWW. Ignoring graphics, the originality content in TWW is greater. It's much more original in its puzzles, characters, overworld, overall theme, and gameplay.
Ignoring release date, you have to agree with me at least half-way, that Tthere are plenty of games better than ALttP. EVeryone's always saying "how good ALttP is for it's time" for it's time well, I played it after it's time, and clearly, it's time is up.

How is it 'too large', especially since you were just praising TWW, which clearly has an overworld that is immeasurably too large, and also OoT, who's overworld is really, really... Dull. ALttP doesn't have a tiny overworld, but it's hardly 'too large'. It takes 15 to 30 seconds to walk across the Desert of Mystery, less if you use the Pegasus Boots, how long does it take to get across the Haunted Wasteland? Or, hell, Hyrule Field? ALttP's overworld is not too large, I don't see how it can be called that. But one thing is for sure, it's certainly a LOT more interesting than OoT's.

Personal preferance comes into play here. Size is totally relative, so I really doubt we'll ever come to an agreement on this. However, the other opinions I've presented can at least be respected, no?


HEY, WORLD! I DON"T THINK ALTTP IS THAT GREAT OF A GAME! PLEASE RESPECT MY OPINION! THANK YOU!

[Hero of Slime]

I agree with D~N, not about ALttP sucking, but about a game greatness or lack of greatness being dependant on how and when it was played. For example the first Zelda game I played was OoT, none of the older games were as enjoyable as OoT because I always compared them to OoT. I would not say that they were bad, because I do not believe it's possible for any Zelda game to be bad. Those four older games were so much harder and not as involved with the story as OoT.

However, right now having played all the games but FS, I do not compare new Zelda games to any one game but to the whole Zelda series instead.

[Fyxe]

I played Zelda II last. I still think it's great, even though it has massive flaws compared to other games in the series.

D~N, if you can't see a game on it's own merits, then I pity you. Just get some perspective. I can't be arsed to argue with you anymore, because there's no point when you're just making up faults that don't fucking exist. The fact that you don't remember the dungeons is just... Nonsense. You clearly weren't CARING when you were playing the game. It sounds to me like you went into the game and early on decided that you WANTED to dislike it.

It's goddamn stupid to compare a game to another released ten years later on a much more powerful system that uses a completely different game engine.

It's just STUPID.

One thing though.

You even say here, that ALttP has the same flaws as LoZ! You admit it! And that's just it; ALttP should have carried over these flaws. And, in my opinion, it's only made worse in ALttP. Opinion, mind you.

Don't you fucking DARE twist my words like that. I said that the flaws YOU thought ALttP had were MUCH more relative to TLoZ and AoL. I don't AGREE that ALttP has those flaws. At all. I think you're just making shit up, to be quite honest, because to think that ALttP's dungeons are more boring than TLoZ's dungeons... That's just... Were you ASLEEP?

Anyway, there's no point arguing with you, because you're an OoT fanboy who has clearly decided to dislike a game and won't even give it the light of day. Why, I don't know, because without ALttP, the Zelda series would be completely different, and your precious OoT wouldn't even exist.

Also, you like LA, yet seem to utterly loath ALttP.

What the fuck. Riiiight. That's setting off my bullshit alarm right there.

Edit: I'm sorry if I sound overly angry, I think I should point out that while I think ALttP is brilliant, I'm not a fangirl for it, because I like *all* the Zelda games for different reasons. I think some are better than others, but even the lesser quality ones I still enjoy very much.

I just see their merits individually, rather than being influenced to dislike certain games in the series. Maybe it's a girl thing?

Edited by Fyxe, 18 March 2007 - 06:40 AM.

[Arturo]

People, calm down. It is not a sin not liking ALttP.

Anyway, ALttP was the first Zelda I played, and I absolutely loved it. But I didn't own it until a few months ago. I can say I utterly loved that game, and that it was very chalenging,. and that its dungeons are very memorable.

It had its defects, but it still is a game of an undoubtable quality. Something that doesn't happen to me with LoZ and AoL, though taht is another story.

And no, Fyxe, it isn't a girly thing. I see it that way. Unless you want to consider me girly

Edited by Arturo, 18 March 2007 - 06:54 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

And no, Fyxe, it isn't a girly thing. I see it that way. Unless you want to consider me girly

Aren't you supposed to be bisexual? That totally makes you an hermaphrodite.

Anyway...

I can't imagine anyone complaining about ALttP's gameplay or storyline. Both paved the way for the rest of the series. And calling LoZ a better game is just hypocritical.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 March 2007 - 07:45 AM.

[Arturo]

Oooookay. It seems you missed some sexuality classes at school.

Bisexual: a person who is atracted to people of both genders.
Hermaphrodite: an animal or plant that has sexual organs of both genders. Fior human beings, it seems to be offensive, and Intersex is used instead.

I am a boy. My tastes don't make me not be a boy.

Enough I said. Last time I checked, the topic wasn't called "Investigation on Arturo's seuality".- So your comment was off-topic and unnecessary.

If you post anything that isn't related to the main topic, I will delete it.

[Hero of Legend]

It was a joke, dude. Geez...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 March 2007 - 10:09 AM.

[D~N]

D~N, if you can't see a game on it's own merits, then I pity you. Just get some perspective. I can't be arsed to argue with you anymore, because there's no point when you're just making up faults that don't fucking exist. The fact that you don't remember the dungeons is just... Nonsense. You clearly weren't CARING when you were playing the game. It sounds to me like you went into the game and early on decided that you WANTED to dislike it.

Of course not! Hearing all of the praise, I went in with high expectations, like any other Zelda game. But when it's touted as the best game since pong, and really all it is is a beefed up, complex version of LoZ, I was very dissapointed.

It's goddamn stupid to compare a game to another released ten years later on a much more powerful system that uses a completely different game engine.

It's just STUPID.

No it's not. For the sole perpose of comparing games to each other, it's not stupid. You can't claim that after you beat Wind Waker, you didn't go and compare it to ALttP. in your case, TWW came up short, but that's another story.

One thing though.
Don't you fucking DARE twist my words like that. I said that the flaws YOU thought ALttP had were MUCH more relative to TLoZ and AoL. I don't AGREE that ALttP has those flaws. At all. I think you're just making shit up, to be quite honest, because to think that ALttP's dungeons are more boring than TLoZ's dungeons... That's just... Were you ASLEEP?

First things first; Ms. Fyxe, I am in no way arguing with anywhere enar as much force as you. One might even say I'm being very polite. There's no need for swearing as if I had insulted your own person. It's a game that I don't like as much as other games. There's no reason to get bent out of shape.
Secondly, I appologize for twisting your words. However, the conclusion I drew can be drawn from what you said, although I will admit it was quite underhand of me.
Also, I'd like to point out that AoL had it's own unique flaws, none of which are comparable to the rest of the series due to its major differences. Your LoZ argument still stands.
Yes. I didn't like ALttP's dungeons as much as LoZ's. This is that thing known as an opinion. Just as I respect yours, I ask again that you respect mine. Perhaps the reason I was asleep was because they were so boring?

Anyway, there's no point arguing with you, because you're an OoT fanboy who has clearly decided to dislike a game and won't even give it the light of day. Why, I don't know, because without ALttP, the Zelda series would be completely different, and your precious OoT wouldn't even exist.

Clearly, I am a hopeless cause who can only praise OoT. I have no other game preferences. I only enjoy OoT. There's no possible way that I like TWW, MM, TP, or LoZ as much or more than OoT. Don't dare argue with me, Zelda comunity, for I have no hope left. Quickly, label me as an OoT fanboy, before some other ALttP fangirl/boy gets hurt!

Also, you like LA, yet seem to utterly loath ALttP.

What the fuck. Riiiight. That's setting off my bullshit alarm right there.

Havn't finished it, but so far, I like it better. There's a clear objective, and his hair isn't pink

Edit: I'm sorry if I sound overly angry, I think I should point out that while I think ALttP is brilliant, I'm not a fangirl for it, because I like *all* the Zelda games for different reasons. I think some are better than others, but even the lesser quality ones I still enjoy very much.

I just see their merits individually, rather than being influenced to dislike certain games in the series. Maybe it's a girl thing?

It's alright, I, unlike other people, know not to take you all too seriously. However, from what I've seen, I could label you as a ALttP fangirl. But, as you claim, you are not, so don't call me an OoT fanboy, especially when I like many other games as much or more than it.

It seems you're on the verge on neglecting my argument all together, so I'll make one final statement and see what you make of it: ALttP is certainly not the best the series has to offer. It definately sets up some great things, but in the end, as a game by itself, fails to capture my attention. It's just a game where, and everyone's had this experience, you say to yourself "gosh, when will this game finially be over?! I guess, other than the length, and the "wow" impression I got from TWW, my only gripe with this game is, in the broadest term, its style. I don't like the atmosphere, the anoying dark world (think about getting lost in either Metroid Prime 1 or 2, and that's what the Dark world was like; aggravating) and the dungeons. Yeah, they set up the puzzles that would be in all Zelda games to come. But, so what? That's no excuse, to me, for the dungeons to lack some luster. I don't know, Fyxe. You keep insisteing that this game has none of the flaws, and all of the missing things I mentioned. But not everyone has the same game experience, and I guess that's all there is to it. =/ Sorry, I just didn't like it, and that's my opinion.

I'm not bullshitting you, and I'm not making thing up. These were the feelings I felt after playing this game, and I'm sorry that we have to disagree. Tell ya what; maybe after Link's Awakening I'll give it another spin. That is, if I can force myself to get through it. That was half joke, and half serious, I'm afraid.

That ALttP hater-
D~N

[Fyxe]

Of course not! Hearing all of the praise, I went in with high expectations, like any other Zelda game. But when it's touted as the best game since pong, and really all it is is a beefed up, complex version of LoZ, I was very dissapointed.

And by that twisted logic, OoT is just a beefed up, 3D version of ALttP.

No it's not. For the sole perpose of comparing games to each other, it's not stupid.

No, it really is stupid. It makes the whole comparison meaningless if you ignore the context of a game's release.

You can't claim that after you beat Wind Waker, you didn't go and compare it to ALttP. in your case, TWW came up short, but that's another story.

I can claim that, because I didn't do that. If anything I compared it to OoT and MM, which were much more recent and similar, therefore the comparison is merited.

If I compare ALttP to anything, I compare it to TLoZ, Link's Awakening, the Oracle games and The Minish Cap, and to some extent OoT.

First things first; Ms. Fyxe, I am in no way arguing with anywhere enar as much force as you. One might even say I'm being very polite. There's no need for swearing as if I had insulted your own person. It's a game that I don't like as much as other games. There's no reason to get bent out of shape.

I consider the twisting of words that you do with me to be much less polite than the occasional swear word. Besides, I wouldn't be swearing if you hadn't told me what I said even though I hadn't said such a thing.

Secondly, I appologize for twisting your words. However, the conclusion I drew can be drawn from what you said, although I will admit it was quite underhand of me.

Fine, it can be drawn, but it shouldn't be, because it's wrong.

Perhaps the reason I was asleep was because they were so boring?

I love TLoZ, but the dungeons are just fighting. Lots and lots of fighting and the occasional confusing layout. The dullest dungeons in ALttP in my opinion are those that homage this style of dungeon, such as Misery Mire. But most of the dungeons in ALttP are a hundred times more unique than the dungeons in TLoZ and involve *actual puzzles*. ALttP introduced so much into the series that it's not funny. I can't believe you don't even recognise this.

Clearly, I am a hopeless cause who can only praise OoT. I have no other game preferences. I only enjoy OoT. There's no possible way that I like TWW, MM, TP, or LoZ as much or more than OoT. Don't dare argue with me, Zelda comunity, for I have no hope left. Quickly, label me as an OoT fanboy, before some other ALttP fangirl/boy gets hurt!

Um, you were self proclaimed as an OoT fanboy. Don't blame me.

Havn't finished it, but so far, I like it better. There's a clear objective, and his hair isn't pink

There was always a clear objective to ALttP, but one of the things that makes it clever is that once you reach the Dark World, you don't HAVE to do all the dungeons in a set order. It's recommended that you do, but you don't have to. This is a homage to TLoZ's style, and I think it does it much better, because you can actually FIND the dungeons (the last two dungeons before Death Mountain in TLoZ are very difficult to find, especially if you miss the clues. They're also fairly dull and don't include any new monsters).

It's alright, I, unlike other people, know not to take you all too seriously. However, from what I've seen, I could label you as a ALttP fangirl. But, as you claim, you are not, so don't call me an OoT fanboy, especially when I like many other games as much or more than it.

As I said before, you called yourself one, I wouldn't call you one if you hadn't already. o.o

It seems you're on the verge on neglecting my argument all together, so I'll make one final statement and see what you make of it: ALttP is certainly not the best the series has to offer. It definately sets up some great things, but in the end, as a game by itself, fails to capture my attention. It's just a game where, and everyone's had this experience, you say to yourself "gosh, when will this game finially be over?!

I actually agree, it doesn't have some of the best bits of the series. It's lacking severely in sidequests, something which you totally ignored. Of course, this was before sidequests became a major part of the series (Link's Awakening really began the trend). HOWEVER, unlike many other Zelda games, like TMC, which is wonderful but lacking in dungeons, and TWW, which has a similar dungeon lacking issue, and OoT, which is a similar game, great atmosphere but painfully easy, it sits at a certain level of quality and never drops below it for a moment. I don't know how you thought 'when will this game be over', because the gameplay of ALttP is very very enjoyable. Maybe it's because you've seen all the unique concepts copied faithfully in later games? Maybe you've just grown tired of any new 2D Zeldas? If it fails to capture your attention, that's just a problem with your attention span, not with the game.

I guess, other than the length, and the "wow" impression I got from TWW, my only gripe with this game is, in the broadest term, its style.

Eh? The same style that TWW homages? Ooookay.

I don't like the atmosphere, the anoying dark world (think about getting lost in either Metroid Prime 1 or 2, and that's what the Dark world was like; aggravating) and the dungeons.

The hell? Maybe you're just easily confused. o.o You shouldn't get lost in the Dark World. The layout is based on the Light World, for heck's sake. It's certainly got more atmosphere than the future of OoT, where Hyrule is basically the same just with a few bad things going on.

Yeah, they set up the puzzles that would be in all Zelda games to come. But, so what?

Um, so everything?

That's no excuse, to me, for the dungeons to lack some luster. I don't know, Fyxe. You keep insisteing that this game has none of the flaws, and all of the missing things I mentioned. But not everyone has the same game experience, and I guess that's all there is to it. =/ Sorry, I just didn't like it, and that's my opinion.

I understand your opinion is there, I just don't feel you're being at all fair in your reasoning. You like Link's Awakening, you like OoT, you like TLoZ. There's no reason to dislike ALttP, because all the things that make those things good are present in ALttP.

Remember, this game is from 1991. The dungeons are a *massive* leap forward from those in TLoZ, you can't deny such a thing.

I'm not bullshitting you, and I'm not making thing up. These were the feelings I felt after playing this game, and I'm sorry that we have to disagree. Tell ya what; maybe after Link's Awakening I'll give it another spin. That is, if I can force myself to get through it. That was half joke, and half serious, I'm afraid.

That ALttP hater-
D~N

I can only recommend you play the original SNES version, it should be available on the Virtual Console. Maybe you'll have more enjoyment out of the game if you avoid Link's yells and experience slightly smoother television graphics.

I would also recommend playing some of the original Zelda again, just so you can experience the jump in gameplay and design. Or maybe you could try ALttP's fun but flawed brother game, FSA?

To be honest, I would actually recommend Super Mario World and Super Metroid, just to get some context of SNES games of the time.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 March 2007 - 01:48 PM.

[Tekky]

While we're on the topic of ALttP, is the VC version definitely the same as the old SNES version? (i.e. without the voice)
Cause I enjoy the game a HELL of a lot more on the SNES than on the GBA...

[D~N]

And by that twisted logic, OoT is just a beefed up, 3D version of ALttP.

Aside from the storyline, I didn't see many parallels between OoT and ALttP...But I see what you're getting at...

No, it really is stupid. It makes the whole comparison meaningless if you ignore the context of a game's release.

But you also get a faulty comparison if you don't remember when I plaayed the games...of course, I kept the dates they were released in mind...but the game's quality was really my main focus. However, I understand what you are saying here also.

I can claim that, because I didn't do that. If anything I compared it to OoT and MM, which were much more recent and similar, therefore the comparison is merited. If I compare ALttP to anything, I compare it to TLoZ, Link's Awakening, the Oracle games and The Minish Cap, and to some extent OoT.

Fair enough.

I consider the twisting of words that you do with me to be much less polite than the occasional swear word. Besides, I wouldn't be swearing if you hadn't told me what I said even though I hadn't said such a thing.
Fine, it can be drawn, but it shouldn't be, because it's wrong.

Again, I am sorry...I'm kinda wishing I hadn't twisted your words; it was more accident than anything...

I love TLoZ, but the dungeons are just fighting. Lots and lots of fighting and the occasional confusing layout. The dullest dungeons in ALttP in my opinion are those that homage this style of dungeon, such as Misery Mire. But most of the dungeons in ALttP are a hundred times more unique than the dungeons in TLoZ and involve *actual puzzles*. ALttP introduced so much into the series that it's not funny. I can't believe you don't even recognise this.

Yes, but see; LoZ's fighting-only stlye works well, wouldn't you agree? Can you actually complain about the amount of enemies it had? No, nobody does that! People, after playing TP, only crave more Caves of Ordeals. But ALttP...sure it introduced puzzles, and back in the day, they were great, probably. But, by today's standards these same puzzles could be deemed "sloppy". And "today" is pretty much when I played it. And maybe that's my fault; expecting OoT "Forest-Temple-like-puzzles" in a game created years before OoT...

Um, you were self proclaimed as an OoT fanboy. Don't blame me.

Err...Other than that little bit of sarcasm, and some of my actions...I never actually called myself an OoT fanboy...O_o

There was always a clear objective to ALttP, but one of the things that makes it clever is that once you reach the Dark World, you don't HAVE to do all the dungeons in a set order. It's recommended that you do, but you don't have to. This is a homage to TLoZ's style, and I think it does it much better, because you can actually FIND the dungeons (the last two dungeons before Death Mountain in TLoZ are very difficult to find, especially if you miss the clues. They're also fairly dull and don't include any new monsters).

I don't have a problem with this in either game, but okay.

As I said before, you called yourself one, I wouldn't call you one if you hadn't already. o.o

Again...what? I really don't remember calling myself an OoT fanboy. Maybe you're refering to my actions, but even they don't outright point to myself being an OoT fanboy...could you perhaps point out when I said it?

I actually agree, it doesn't have some of the best bits of the series. It's lacking severely in sidequests, something which you totally ignored. Of course, this was before sidequests became a major part of the series (Link's Awakening really began the trend). HOWEVER, unlike many other Zelda games, like TMC, which is wonderful but lacking in dungeons, and TWW, which has a similar dungeon lacking issue, and OoT, which is a similar game, great atmosphere but painfully easy, it sits at a certain level of quality and never drops below it for a moment. I don't know how you thought 'when will this game be over', because the gameplay of ALttP is very very enjoyable. Maybe it's because you've seen all the unique concepts copied faithfully in later games? Maybe you've just grown tired of any new 2D Zeldas? If it fails to capture your attention, that's just a problem with your attention span, not with the game.

Aha, now were' getting somewhere; you just explained something I couldn't explain this entire time! It's that I've seen it all before! All the puzzles that were original in its hayday were obsolete by the time I got around to playing it. This made them all feel the same to me, thus making a repetitive and unoriginal feeling surround ALttP. ...And grow tired of 2D Zelda games? So long as it's not block-puzzle after block-puzzle, I'm still compelled by their charm. And that's just what ALttP is; block puzzes, give or take a few hookshot puzzles. That's an over-exaggeration, but still.
...It did have the hookshot, right? See, I can't even remember that -___- maybe I'm hopeless...
At any rate, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
As a side-note on side-quests: I don't judge a game on optional things, so the side-quests are not something to hold against a game.

Eh? The same style that TWW homages? Ooookay.

Not really what I was getting at...I don't mean style, like "Zelda Adventure Genre" or "side scrolling Action Quest". Whe I said style, I was using the broadest term possible to say that, well, I don't like the concepts of the games. Like I established, everything is, too me, "done before". Combine this with an outdated art style and I am very under-wowed.

The hell? Maybe you're just easily confused. o.o You shouldn't get lost in the Dark World. The layout is based on the Light World, for heck's sake. It's certainly got more atmosphere than the future of OoT, where Hyrule is basically the same just with a few bad things going on.

Heh, I didn't get lost in the dark world; I got lost on Death Mountain whilst a bunny >_<

Um, so everything?
I understand your opinion is there, I just don't feel you're being at all fair in your reasoning. You like Link's Awakening, you like OoT, you like TLoZ. There's no reason to dislike ALttP, because all the things that make those things good are present in ALttP.

And that's just it, these games have things from ALttP, and I played them first. Logically it is ALttP which is viewed as the 'duller' game from my perspective. This is unfortunate but true, I'ma fraid.

Remember, this game is from 1991. The dungeons are a *massive* leap forward from those in TLoZ, you can't deny such a thing.

Absolutely; no doubt about it.

I can only recommend you play the original SNES version, it should be available on the Virtual Console. Maybe you'll have more enjoyment out of the game if you avoid Link's yells and experience slightly smoother television graphics.

Hmm? Yells? Are you refering to his "HE-YAHS!" and "AHHHHGGGS!" ? ...Oh! right, I remeber peole saying they added OoT-young-link shouts to the game...I guess you don't like them? I thought they were fine...

To be honest, I would actually recommend Super Mario World and Super Metroid, just to get some context of SNES games of the time.

Super Mario World is my favortie Mario Title of all time. Super Metroid, though I've heard it's praise, I've never been able to get my hands on it...

All in all, I think I'm gunna give the game another whirl...after all, you've gone through all this trouble to defend it...so it's only fair that I do. And having established what the problem is; namely, I played it after TWW and OoT, etc., I think you'll find that playing it after TP may not do the game any justice...But this time I promise I'll be more fair.

Sorry to get you all angry over this, Fyxe

Edited by D~N, 18 March 2007 - 04:06 PM.

[Fyxe]

Aside from the storyline, I didn't see many parallels between OoT and ALttP...But I see what you're getting at...

A lot of the enemies and items and dungeon concepts are similar. Did you know that the Shadow Temple is the same place as the Palace of Darkness? They're both called the Shadow Temple (or Temple of Darkness as another translation) in Japan.

Again, I am sorry...I'm kinda wishing I hadn't twisted your words; it was more accident than anything...

Fine fine, don't worry, it's forgotten.

Yes, but see; LoZ's fighting-only stlye works well, wouldn't you agree? Can you actually complain about the amount of enemies it had? No, nobody does that! People, after playing TP, only crave more Caves of Ordeals.

Well, actually, there were way too many Wizzrobes in the sixth dungeon. The difficulty jump is a bit too high as a result. And sometimes there are a few too many enemies and not enough puzzles. At least Zelda II had some simple puzzles in it's dungeons.

But ALttP...sure it introduced puzzles, and back in the day, they were great, probably. But, by today's standards these same puzzles could be deemed "sloppy". And "today" is pretty much when I played it. And maybe that's my fault; expecting OoT "Forest-Temple-like-puzzles" in a game created years before OoT...

Don't forget, the Forest Temple is a gem, none of the other dungeons in OoT come close to that quality. But ALttP has it's fair share of puzzles. The Ice Palace is actually more difficult on the SNES version, did you know that? They made the main puzzle a bit easier on the GBA version. But yes, ALttP just has less puzzles than later games. A lot of it is more down to clever dungeon layout, try to appreciate that more than set-piece puzzles (although, be fair, there are quite a few).

Again...what? I really don't remember calling myself an OoT fanboy. Maybe you're refering to my actions, but even they don't outright point to myself being an OoT fanboy...could you perhaps point out when I said it?

Here we go...

http://forums.legend...mp;#entry307967

lol, I'm such an OoT fanboy it's not even funny. >_< No one gives us the respect we deserve. Honestly, I started with LoZ, but I was four years old! And then I skipped right to OoT! Not my fault! When you're five years old you have no choice over what games you get. >_>

Aha, now were' getting somewhere; you just explained something I couldn't explain this entire time! It's that I've seen it all before! All the puzzles that were original in its hayday were obsolete by the time I got around to playing it. This made them all feel the same to me, thus making a repetitive and unoriginal feeling surround ALttP. ...And grow tired of 2D Zelda games? So long as it's not block-puzzle after block-puzzle, I'm still compelled by their charm. And that's just what ALttP is; block puzzes, give or take a few hookshot puzzles. That's an over-exaggeration, but still.

It is a BIG exaggeration. I remember one or two major block puzzles, and that's it. There were puzzles involving multiple floors, switching holes, the cane, and of course there were a few involving the Hookshot, it was entirely new back then.

...It did have the hookshot, right? See, I can't even remember that -___- maybe I'm hopeless...
At any rate, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

See, it's concerning that you forgot it all. You give the impression that you weren't really concentrating when you played it. o.o Maybe given you just beat TWW, you had been 'Zelda-ed out'? And without an in-depth storyline to keep you going, you just went through the motions.

As a side-note on side-quests: I don't judge a game on optional things, so the side-quests are not something to hold against a game.

But sometimes it's important. You can't judge Majora's Mask properly without taking the side-quests into account, for instance.

Not really what I was getting at...I don't mean style, like "Zelda Adventure Genre" or "side scrolling Action Quest". Whe I said style, I was using the broadest term possible to say that, well, I don't like the concepts of the games. Like I established, everything is, too me, "done before". Combine this with an outdated art style and I am very under-wowed.

You shouldn't expect to be over-wowed. It's a SNES game. And as for the art style, this is the same art style that TWW is homaging. Be fair, and accept that it was a massive step up from TLoZ. Would you judge Link's Awakening on it's art style? Of course not. Also, like I said, it might help playing it on a television.

Heh, I didn't get lost in the dark world; I got lost on Death Mountain whilst a bunny >_<

O.o' There's nowhere to get lost to. ¬.¬

On a side note, Death Mountain IS the most confusing area, but it's kind of meant to be.

Hmm? Yells? Are you refering to his "HE-YAHS!" and "AHHHHGGGS!" ? ...Oh! right, I remeber peole saying they added OoT-young-link shouts to the game...I guess you don't like them? I thought they were fine...

I didn't actually mind them too much, but it did detract from the very cool sword sound effects, so I can see why people would prefer the original. There's a few other things they changed too.

Super Mario World is my favortie Mario Title of all time. Super Metroid, though I've heard it's praise, I've never been able to get my hands on it...

You must, it's a wonderful game. o.o Possibly a better SNES game than ALttP in my opinion. Possibly. They're very even in my mind.

All in all, I think I'm gunna give the game another whirl...after all, you've gone through all this trouble to defend it...so it's only fair that I do. And having established what the problem is; namely, I played it after TWW and OoT, etc., I think you'll find that playing it after TP may not do the game any justice...But this time I promise I'll be more fair.

Sorry to get you all angry over this, Fyxe

Hey, I'm not angry, I'm just defending a game that is not worthy of such an overly critical response. If you play it again, please try and view it as a game on it's own, and *try* to get lost in the atmosphere. Also, don't rush. Come on, that opening sequence in the rain is brilliant. Ah, the music... And appearing on top of the Pyramid of Power is a stunning moment. It's a whole new world.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 March 2007 - 07:48 PM.

[darthsauron]

I love MM, it's probably my favorite, but I would redesign the four giants/gods who appear at the end of the game. They're just a little too goofy looking.

WW-just a finished version

TP-I would make the boss battles harder and expand the Hyrule castle graveyard. I missed not having tombs to explore, or having a mini-dungeon beneath the graveyard.

[D~N]

A lot of the enemies and items and dungeon concepts are similar. Did you know that the Shadow Temple is the same place as the Palace of Darkness? They're both called the Shadow Temple (or Temple of Darkness as another translation) in Japan.

...Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit.

Well, actually, there were way too many Wizzrobes in the sixth dungeon. The difficulty jump is a bit too high as a result. And sometimes there are a few too many enemies and not enough puzzles. At least Zelda II had some simple puzzles in it's dungeons.

Ohh, dungeon six gives me the creeps just thinking about it ._. But, that's why I like it, too. Always a good chalenge, while being an unfairly large jump in difficulty...oh well *shrug*

Don't forget, the Forest Temple is a gem, none of the other dungeons in OoT come close to that quality. But ALttP has it's fair share of puzzles. The Ice Palace is actually more difficult on the SNES version, did you know that? They made the main puzzle a bit easier on the GBA version. But yes, ALttP just has less puzzles than later games. A lot of it is more down to clever dungeon layout, try to appreciate that more than set-piece puzzles (although, be fair, there are quite a few).

See, that's another tidbit I did not know! I'd like to see how this one plays compared ot the original...

Here we go...

http://forums.legend...mp;#entry307967

...
...


...

>_>

well, err...you see...
umm..

you cheated! that's a different thread! >_< And besides, I was using sarcasm again...err, yeah, that's it! Sarcasm!

It is a BIG exaggeration. I remember one or two major block puzzles, and that's it. There were puzzles involving multiple floors, switching holes, the cane, and of course there were a few involving the Hookshot, it was entirely new back then.

See, it's concerning that you forgot it all. You give the impression that you weren't really concentrating when you played it. o.o Maybe given you just beat TWW, you had been 'Zelda-ed out'? And without an in-depth storyline to keep you going, you just went through the motions.

That, my dear Fyxe, is a very accurate description of what probably occured.
Also, like I said, that is over-exaggeration to quite a high degree. What there really was a lot of was multiple floor/switch puzzles, like you afore mentioned. But there were a lot of those, yes. These, rather than block puzzles, where what I should have said were repetative. And while these are fine in their own right, too many is not. But they weren't too overused, either, just enough for me to take notice.

But sometimes it's important. You can't judge Majora's Mask properly without taking the side-quests into account, for instance.

Ahh, but wouldn't you agree that the "side quest" in MM is actually the "main quest"? After all, this is where the length is, no? In this respect, I, like countless others, consider MM as the "side-quest-game". But I don't forget it's thriller main-adventure either. The storyline was gold, and the characters were so deep, I loved it. Especially the first three temples and their surrounding "cast" of characters. You know, the gorons, deku, and Zora; in this game, they have such depth. If only it pressed on for one or two more dungeons...Then I could consider both sections of the game equal. But for now, the killer "main part" takes second-seat to the side-quests, only because of length...And so I do judge MM for it's side quests, keeping in mind the main adventure...almost backwards of the normal way, I suppose...

You shouldn't expect to be over-wowed. It's a SNES game. And as for the art style, this is the same art style that TWW is homaging. Be fair, and accept that it was a massive step up from TLoZ. Would you judge Link's Awakening on it's art style? Of course not. Also, like I said, it might help playing it on a television.

Well, having heard the hype, I rightfully beleived that I should have been wowed. *shrug*

Oh, yes, it was a huge step up from LoZ...but this is only noticable because of the lack of a true sequel...
Take this example; Super Mario Bros had 1, 2 and 3 on the NES. Then Super Mario World came out (my favorite Mario game) and the graphic jump looks smaller.
Zelda, however, never got a "true" sequel...AoL made the transition of garphics non-apparent...This is why it was a huge jump.
Needless to say, it was still a huge jump no matter what. It just looks larger by a lack of transitions.
Please don't get me wrong here, I am recognising the large step...But at the same time I am explaining it...

O.o' There's nowhere to get lost to. ¬.¬

On a side note, Death Mountain IS the most confusing area, but it's kind of meant to be.

I distinctly remember getting frusterated for days not knowing what to do...my skills had just been limited and I just arived in a toally different world...I was just so lost and confused.

You must, it's a wonderful game. o.o Possibly a better SNES game than ALttP in my opinion. Possibly. They're very even in my mind.

Hmm then it must not be very good kidding
anyway, I always had the intention to pick it up...but without a snes *dedges rage from random member* I don't have the ability to play it...The lack of a SNES also explains the delay for playing ALttP...I always wanted a SNES too...Super Mario World was on it, but nooooo! Of course my mum wouldn't buy it ¬_¬

Hey, I'm not angry, I'm just defending a game that is not worthy of such an overly critical response. If you play it again, please try and view it as a game on it's own, and *try* to get lost in the atmosphere. Also, don't rush. Come on, that opening sequence in the rain is brilliant. Ah, the music... And appearing on top of the Pyramid of Power is a stunning moment. It's a whole new world.

Sounds like a plan.
Wow, the begining was good, I'll give you that. I distinctly remember thinking to myself "Wow, this looks like it's gunna be a killer game!" based off of that opening...but I realized soon enough I was to be let down...Oh well... Maybe next time...

Well, it seems we've reached some sort of conclusion here, Fyxe...I've realized the errors of my ways, and I'll never dare insult ALttP again
In all honesty, I've come to appreciate ALTTP a little more throughout this. Oddly, I've come to appreciate MM a little more as well O_o ...Still, I'd like to update my gripes with the game, from that first post:

ALttP: A half-decent plot, an improved combat system, graphic style, gameplay mechanics, and some originality. Honestly, I hate ALttP more thaan AoL. This game is definately the worst the series has to offer. I can't even begin to fathom how people like this game! Ugggh, It's so bad. Every dungeon is the same. The Dark World is agravating. Hyrule Field, Light version, has a horrible overworld theme (Sorry Koji). Link's hair is Pink. PINK! The enemies are dull and repetitve, the dungeons have such bad puzzles, the game drags on for too long, and the plot is unclear. The language is hard to understand, the fonts are anoying, and points aren't made very well. Usually, I had to talk to someone two or three times before I understood what they were talking about. This game needs to fix all of these things.

...

ALttP: Needs a morein depth plot that rings true throughout the entire game. It can't be "lost" simply because you've entered a dungeon. THe dungeons must tie in with the plot; this is very important to the player and their understanding of what is going on. The combat system would have worked better if they kept the "jab" from LoZ, but the horizontal slice was a fine additio to the series as a whole. It still should have been prefected first; not being able to attack some other Hylian guards except from a specific angle sometimes aggravated me. Like all old games, a graphical improvement wouldn't hurt. The gameplay needs some more variation from LoZ and itself; the first half was quite similar to LoZ, while the second half was too similar to the first half, but now in a dark world. The temples, while changing key themes, should have really varied a little more than 'multiple levels', though I will cut it some slack being the first game to even have multiple levels. Still, they can only be taken so far...The dark world could use a distinctive art style, similar to the Lands taken over by Twilight in TP. i.e.; bloom effects and particles floating about. Something to give it uniqueness. Hyrule field still needs a better theme. Link's pink hair....nevermind....The game is slightly too long, but I suppose that's not the worst thing in the world. Again, I wish the plot was not only confined to being told through Srahaslalalahhalhalhalh. If they could tie the plot into the dungeons, give these dungeons a touch more variation, and make the objective slightly more known to the player (not a LoZ "I have no objective" clone) then this game would probably rock.

And that's my update. Far less critical, but now that my memory has been jogged, it is far more accurate.

That guy who kinda dislikes ALttP-
D~N

Edited by D~N, 18 March 2007 - 10:19 PM.

[Fyxe]

Well, on your updated criticism, I'll just point out a couple of issues...

I thought it was mainly the second half that was closer to TLoZ, because the dungeons could be played in different orders, and were defined as Levels, and it was more difficult and the overworld was more dangerous.

You CAN jab with your sword, by holding down the button. Works fine, I think. But FSA has a quick TLoZ style jabbing attack in addition to the horizontal swing, interestingly.

Bloom effects and particles floating about?
...It's a first generation SNES game! C'mon! Bloom effects? Yeesk. The N64 couldn't even do that.

Also, the plot was kind of tied to the dungeons... The Maidens? They told much more of the plot than Sahasrahla. It's a bit harsh to say they weren't that tied to the plot, because the dungeons in the second half of OoT aren't really tied to the plot either, they're just dungeons to work through and get the Medallions. The difference is that we know the Sages from the Young Link portion.

But at least you're being much more fair to it now. No, ALttP doesn't have all of the things that some of the later games have developed, but it's slightly unfair to expect that of it. As a SNES game of the time, it's stunning, and it's still stunning if you don't expect far too much of it. Just play it for the gameplay, I say.

Edited by Fyxe, 19 March 2007 - 06:45 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

What is with Zelda games not having a counter for the number deaths? I would have put one in TP, MM, TWW and TMC.

[spunky-monkey]

What is with Zelda games not having a counter for the number deaths? I would have put one in TP, MM, TWW and TMC.

I think it's pedantic to have that death counter in Zelda, well except for replay value, it serves no purpose and is better left out. Speaking of timers it was extremely irritating of TP to include a "total-hours-played" one, I mean, were the designers trying to encourage us to speed run the adventure? Zelda isn't supposed to play like Metroid.