99 replies to this topic

[Nimiety]

Fyxe, on Mar 16 2007, 05:41 PM, said:

Why wouldn't there be? Nothing Link does stops the sapling from existing.

The sapling doesn't exist until 7 years in the future, but the future didn't unfold that way in TP. Unless I missed something (very possible), there's no way to say one way or the other whether there was a sapling or not. All I can go on is the fact that, as far as I've seen, the word "deku" isn't mentioned once in TP.

[FDL]

Nimiety, on Mar 16 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

Actually, what if they did die off? The Deku Tree dies in the child timeline, and we don't know if there was a sapling to take its place like there was in the adult timeline. Can the Kokiri survive without their guardian deity? I guess it's not really an answerable question, but it does throw some delightful ambiguity into the situation.

I'm sorry, but that's nearly impossible. In the child timeline only certain things were changed, not every single thing. The only reason the sapling hadn't grown yet was because of the darkness that had consumed the forest, and I HIGHLY doubt that Link would just watch as the people he grew up with died. He'd make sure the sapling grew.

[Crazy Penguin]

Duke Serkol, on Mar 15 2007, 11:41 PM, said:

What I said. The Japanese game doesn't have the chart to find Triforce charts (which you still need to pay Tingle for "deciphering" actually, so I was wrong in saying that he isn't mandatory).

That's craaaazy! How were players supposed to find the Triforce charts? How were they to know to even look for charts?

[Showsni]

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But really, I thought of it being an abandoned Kokiri temple but the symbols on the doors are actually in reverse/mirrored. So it may not be.

The entire game was mirrored...

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AoL: No Sleeping Zelda thing. Just make her the Zelda from the first one.

Um, why? That would massively change the game's story, for no real reason. So there are two princess Zeldas after AoL... So what?

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ALttP: In retrospect, maybe having some explanation as to why Ganondorf has the full Triforce despite the fact he never had it before or since.

This is more a problem the other games need to address, not ALttP. LoZ, AoL and ALttP set the precedent - it wasn't until OoT that the triforce split on contact. OoT is the game that needed to explain the change.

[FDL]

Showsni, on Mar 16 2007, 10:46 PM, said:

The entire game was mirrored...

Except I was talking about the GC version.

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Um, why? That would massively change the game's story, for no real reason. So there are two princess Zeldas after AoL... So what?

Because now with splits, floods, three heroes getting the Triforce at some point, it seems silly that the prophecy would come true so late in the timeline.

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This is more a problem the other games need to address, not ALttP. LoZ, AoL and ALttP set the precedent - it wasn't until OoT that the triforce split on contact. OoT is the game that needed to explain the change.

When every single game except for ALttP have the Triforce divided, ALttP is the game that would work better changed, not every single other one.

[Fyxe]

Nimiety, on Mar 16 2007, 09:53 PM, said:

The sapling doesn't exist until 7 years in the future, but the future didn't unfold that way in TP. Unless I missed something (very possible), there's no way to say one way or the other whether there was a sapling or not. All I can go on is the fact that, as far as I've seen, the word "deku" isn't mentioned once in TP.

Actually, the toad boss in Lakebed Temple is apparently called Deku Toad.

But on the subject of the sapling, I don't see anything that would occur in the past that would stop the sapling from existing. It's seed was presumably planted shortly before the Deku Tree died. Why would it not grow?

[Duke Serkol]

SOAP, on Mar 16 2007, 12:12 PM, said:

The Temple of Time I put in the sewers of Castle Town amongst the ruins of the ancient market place.

Did you actually recognize ruins of the market place in the sewers? Or are you saying you would you add those too?

Hero of Legend, on Mar 16 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

the Forest Temple shows blatant signs of being an abandoned Kokiri Village. You can see the Kokiri Emerald on every door and such. And to top it off it is inside a giant tree, just like in TWW.

But there are no abandoned tree houses like there were in TWW, right? So maybe it was a place sacred to the Koroks, but not a village.
Also, isn't it composed by several large trees? (Not to nitpick, just checking)

Fyxe, on Mar 17 2007, 12:17 AM, said:

Actually, the toad boss in Lakebed Temple is apparently called Deku Toad.

Are you sure that's not Degu Toad? Many bosses in the japanese AlttP had Degu as part of their names (in particular giant versions of smaller creatures).

[Fyxe]

Duke Serkol, on Mar 17 2007, 12:14 AM, said:

Are you sure that's not Degu Toad? Many bosses in the japanese AlttP had Degu as part of their names (in particular giant versions of smaller creatures).

Well, it'd make more sense, but the Prima Guide gives it as Deku. I have no idea what the Japanese name is.

On a side note, Deku Babas are common enemies and 'Deku Like' is the name of an enemy in the Forest Temple.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 March 2007 - 07:35 PM.

[SOAP]

Duke Serkol, on Mar 17 2007, 12:14 AM, said:

Did you actually recognize ruins of the market place in the sewers? Or are you saying you would you add those too?

Recognise? No, that's something I'd add. I was thinking of Paper Mario: TTYD when I wrote that and I thought it'd be cool if they had flourishing city built over the ruins of an older city, possibly from a previous game.

Also, just to throw it out there, I think the Temple of Time's ruined state and it's retconned connection are related. The Twilight beasts are always moving random manmade structures from one part of Hyrule to another. Maybe they moved the Temple of Time and dumped it in the Sacred Forest, possibly ontop of the Forest Temple (You hear Saria's song as you naer the Temple of Time.). As for it's original location, there's a patch of stone that looks like the foundations of building in the eastern most part of Eastern Hyrule Feild. Perhaps this was the original location of the Temple of Time?

[D~N]

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As for it's original location, there's a patch of stone that looks like the foundations of building in the eastern most part of Eastern Hyrule Feild. Perhaps this was the original location of the Temple of Time?

EXACTLY what I've been thinking. To expand on this, what SOAP means is that there are stones in a line, as if they had formed a wall before, in Eastern Hyrule Field [GC version]. There is also a patch of flatter stones in the middle of the grassy field, as if they had been a pavement once. You can even hear the 'clickity-clack' of Epona's gallop as opposed to her normal 'thumpity-thump' of the hoofs on the grass. This is definately pavement next to a destroyed wall. A conclusion can be draw here; this is where either Hyrule Castle was, The Temple of Time was, or The entire Hyrule Market area was.

I definately think this is where the Temple of Time was. Hyrule Castle could have been there too, but I don't think so. I, unlike most people, don't really think Hyrule Castle moved very much. Rather, I think we are seeing for the first time, the area behind the Castle. i.e.; North Hyrule Field. But that's definately where the ToT was; East of the Castle. Like SOAP said, I think it was transported. That's an awesome theory I never thought of, but fully agree with. Good going, SOAP.

THINGS I'D CHANGE:

LoZ: Nothing, this game is perfect.

AoL: Heart system, perhaps save system.

ALttP: A half-decent plot, an improved combat system, graphic style, gameplay mechanics, and some originality. Honestly, I hate ALttP more thaan AoL. This game is definately the worst the series has to offer. I can't even begin to fathom how people like this game! Ugggh, It's so bad. Every dungeon is the same. The Dark World is agravating. Hyrule Field, Light version, has a horrible overworld theme (Sorry Koji). Link's hair is Pink. PINK! The enemies are dull and repetitve, the dungeons have such bad puzzles, the game drags on for too long, and the plot is unclear. The language is hard to understand, the fonts are anoying, and points aren't made very well. Usually, I had to talk to someone two or three times before I understood what they were talking about. This game needs to fix all of these things.

LA: Just bought it. Still playing, but it's very good so far. Kinda "out there". (Chain Chomps, Giant Eggs, Yoshi Dolls?! I know it's a dream, bot gosh, this is kinda...out there)

OoT: Fantastic game. Wonderful plot. Perfect in more than one way. I'd subtract that last enslaved carpenter I could never find (grr!). Also, I'd put in an actual need for the fire and ice arrows. That's it.

OoX: I love this style of games. OoX and LA both with their similar graphic style are definately some of my favourites. Good stuff. Take out the Master Sword, though...

MM: Two more dungeons, that's all it needs. Just a tiny bit more length. Even just one more would suffice. Great game. Maybe a longer day system, with the same amount of people having longer schedules. This gives more options for side quests, and gives larger time-slots to do things. I can't even begin to tell how many times I missed the conversation between Anju and Goro-Link, or Anju and the Postman. They last for like 30 seconds... With longer days, or perhaps one aditional day, there is more time for you to find a conversation and trigger an event rather than having to start over every time >_< Do you follow? That was tricky to explain. Oh, and a better overworld. Less crowded, more space, etc.

FS/A: Dunno, still gotta get them. Maybe it's the fact that I know I'll never be able to find four people...so if i did have them, I'd probably change this factor of requiring four people.

TWW: An excelent game. I dunno, other than Tingle being a creepy character, i didn't find the Triforce hunt all that anoying...Just warp. It's not that difficult. Sure, it's a little tidious, but I found it, for the most part, not that bad. What this game does need, however, is more dungeons. Seriously. Like REALLY BADLY. Other than that, it gets the D~N stamp of aproval.

TMC: More dungeons. Side quest amount is perfect. Still no excuse for being short on dungeons.

TP: This game is perfect in every way shape and form. I cannot even begin to think of the things it could even need to make it better. If I absolutely had to add something, though, I would add the thick-wooded forest that we saw in the trailer, and some Moblins.


...Oh! And more Darknuts! Every game needs more Darknuts!

Edited by D~N, 16 March 2007 - 08:38 PM.

[Fyxe]

Quite frankly, the Temple of Time could not have been transported. It's blatantly been in the woods for a long time, just look at the way it's been grown over and desolated. Zant's activity has not been going on long since the start of the game.

Also, the Door of Time would therefore lead to an empty forest a century in the past.

One more thing.

D~N, on Mar 17 2007, 01:32 AM, said:

ALttP: A half-decent plot, an improved combat system, graphic style, gameplay mechanics, and some originality. Honestly, I hate ALttP more thaan AoL. This game is definately the worst the series has to offer.

For FUCK's sake. No, for fuck's sake, no, no fucking no, you contrary, foolish child.

I'm not even going to bother to argue against any of the 'problems' you came up with, because some of them are menial, and the rest are just bloody lies. Fucking LIES. I won't stand for it. I argue against OoT being so bloody wonderful as some people think, but I don't outright LIE about it.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 March 2007 - 09:23 PM.

[D~N]

heh heh heh.

I exagerated. Chill out.
However, it is still my least favorite game in the series. The facts I presented, or rather, opinions, may be relative to when you played it. Having bought it right after playing TWW to satisfy my Zelda craving, it was just too long and too plotless, compared to TWW.
I know, there absolutely was a plot. But telling it through Srasala- Salaraslha- Sahralahs- ...That guy whose name I can't spell, they created one confused gamer: me.
Also, Link's hair being pink was just a very "wtf?", for me. Had nothing to do with my enjoyment, or lackthereof, of the game.
Yes, I thought the game dragged on for too long and the dungeons were repetitive and unoriginal. Get over it, please. Also, after playing the rest of what the series has to offer first, I can only compare it to games like OoT and MM. I have to. It's human nature to compare things to prior experiences. That said, after playing TWW, I must compare the originality and length of the games ot each other. And I'm sorry, but TWW won.
Something I forgot to add: ALttP's overworld was too large. More like a fact than an opinion, but I wanna see what you make of this.

And Fyxe, I'm sorry about your eyes. If it does any good, I liked MM more than OoT.*

*Liked. As in "when I played them". Looking back, OoT is the game I replay more often. Still, MM is the better game, I just replay OoT more. It's an easier game to get in to and play again. It's more compelling, but MM is better.

Edited by D~N, 16 March 2007 - 10:18 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

I'll tell you one thing I would change about TP. It's ending. After finishing that dungeon in the sky, the main game proceeds right away to the twilight realm, and then after that straight to hyrule castle. It's dungeon hopping like this that I would change about zelda games. ALttP had this but at least in it you could not warp directly to the dungeons' entrances.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

i would change how people are always complaing. "we want more dungeons" guess what, no more overworld. "we want more overworld" guess what, less dungeons. "we want both" if you use more then three brain cells you can figure out that it would be difficult to fit it all in with the graphics as well. "screw graphics" *graphics are screwed* "well screw this, the graphics suck"

the above is what i have heard from people in my city. >.< stupid whiners. actually i havent heard much of this here. YAY!!!!w

[spunky-monkey]

SOAP, on Mar 17 2007, 12:39 AM, said:

Recognise? No, that's something I'd add. I was thinking of Paper Mario: TTYD when I wrote that and I thought it'd be cool if they had flourishing city built over the ruins of an older city, possibly from a previous game.

Sounds great, hopefully that's exactly what they'll do for another future game or graphical remake.

D~N, on Mar 17 2007, 01:32 AM, said:

ALttP: I can't even begin to fathom how people like this game! Ugggh, It's so bad.

*dead silence*
Are you kidding us D~N?

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LA: Just bought it. Still playing, but it's very good so far. Kinda "out there". (Chain Chomps, Giant Eggs, Yoshi Dolls?! I know it's a dream, bot gosh, this is kinda...out there)

Whole point of the game's goofball humor is it's all just a surreal dream world, one that often brilliantly breaks the fourth wall. XD

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TP: This game is perfect in every way shape and form. I cannot even begin to think of the things it could even need to make it better.

Is there such thing as a perfect Zelda game? I'm not entirely sure, unless we use some kind of "Mastery" scoring criteria like UK magazines do when the actual game(s) pushes the technical performance of the console system to its absolute limit; i.e. As good as it can possibly get without causing major crashes. Calling Twilight Princess 'perfect' would be an exaggeration simply because:-

1. Storyline that didn't involve kids being carried off by monsters TWICE;
2. Some side-quests as any adventure is hollow without them;
3. Mini-games are essential yet are lacking, seriously there's no horse-back archery in a Zelda game? That's unforgivable Nintendo;
4. No damn wolf howling (am I the only one who found it annoying?);
5. A sense of urgency after Hyrule Castle is frozen;
6. Memorable music - those incorporated Midis were terrible;
7. Better designed or at least more intelligent NPCs - the townspeople repeated their same sentences no matter how far you progressed in the game;
8. Kakariko Village. Because the pathetic excuse for a village we got was virtually void of life;

D~N, on Mar 17 2007, 03:16 AM, said:

Also, after playing the rest of what the series has to offer first, I can only compare it to games like OoT and MM. I have to. It's human nature to compare things to prior experiences. That said, after playing TWW, I must compare the originality and length of the games ot each other. And I'm sorry, but TWW won.

TWW > OoT? NONSENSE.

Next minute you'll be telling me that my DS will make me financially secure.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

There's seriously a lot of things I'd change with the series.

1. Stop using Ganon so much. The potential of screwing up a timeline is very high if we keep reusing him again and again.
2. More uses for money. Seriously, in all Zelda games, I end up with more money than I know what to do with.
3. More puzzles in the dungeons.
4. More sidequests that aren't just, "chain letter" games.
5. More game. I mean, come on! How quickly did we finish TP and TWW? Very.

Oh yeah, and more bishies.

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 17 March 2007 - 08:53 AM.

[Fyxe]

D~N, on Mar 17 2007, 03:16 AM, said:

heh heh heh.

I exagerated. Chill out.

You can't halt my rage that easily. Rrrgh.

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However, it is still my least favorite game in the series. The facts I presented, or rather, opinions, may be relative to when you played it. Having bought it right after playing TWW to satisfy my Zelda craving, it was just too long and too plotless, compared to TWW.

And yet you say TLoZ was perfect.

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I know, there absolutely was a plot. But telling it through Srasala- Salaraslha- Sahralahs- ...That guy whose name I can't spell, they created one confused gamer: me.

Waaaait. You can't complain there was no plot then complain it was too confusing. Sahasrahla explains it perfectly, and if you had trouble with the dialogue, the GBA version is translated better than the SNES one.

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Also, Link's hair being pink was just a very "wtf?", for me. Had nothing to do with my enjoyment, or lackthereof, of the game.

Link used to have reddy/browny hair. None of this blonde bimbo nonsense that OoT started. Also, it's an early SNES sprite. Sprites weren't as good back then. Deal wid it. o.o

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Yes, I thought the game dragged on for too long and the dungeons were repetitive and unoriginal. Get over it, please.

This is what pisses me off the most. The dungeons were NOT repetative or unoriginal. There were a lot of them, but they were neither of those things. Again, you say that TLoZ was great, yet that game has much more repetative dungeons than ALttP ever had. Come on! This was one of the first games on the SNES, the third game in the Zelda series. The jump in quality from the previous two is *massive*.

I think OoT's dungeons are poor in comparison to later games, with the exception of a couple like the Forest Temple, but that's not my problem with the game, because, like ALttP, it was a huge step upwards. Look at the dungeons in TLoZ. They were just square rooms ordered together in such a way to make the dungeon somewhat confusing and difficult, but look at what ALttP introduced. The dungeons are such a leap forward it's insane, and some of them still top the dungeons from the newer games. They're a lot more challenging, for one thing.

I honestly don't know how you see the dungeons as unoriginal. I really don't. The Watergate Dungeon is entirely different to the Palace of Darkness, and what about Skull Woods? That place is crazy, it has tons of entrances that you need to use carefully. In Blind's Hideout the boss won't even appear in his room when you first enter. And the Ice Palace... Oy, that is a mad and VERY ORIGINAL dungeon. Turtle Rock has some nasty little Cane platform puzzles. Ganon's Tower is long and difficult and basically a homage to Death Mountain from the original Zelda.

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Also, after playing the rest of what the series has to offer first, I can only compare it to games like OoT and MM.

That's stupid, although OoT is overrated so why you think ALttP can't compare to OoT I don't know, but I'll humour you for a moment. Did you compare TLoZ and AoL to OoT and MM? Because those games suffer from the same issues you've pointed out about ALttP much more legitimately, and have more of their own. But nobody in their right mind would call them bad in comparison to the later games in the series.

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I have to. It's human nature to compare things to prior experiences. That said, after playing TWW, I must compare the originality and length of the games ot each other. And I'm sorry, but TWW won.

1991. 2002. 11 year difference, and a massive leap in technology. And ALttP was original. It's just a complete lie to say it's 'less original', given that it essentially introduced many more puzzles into the series, introduced a fighting system that would be present in all the 2D games to come due to it's ease of use and enjoyability, and introduced the dual worlds system and an a plot that's actually worth speaking about to this day.

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Something I forgot to add: ALttP's overworld was too large. More like a fact than an opinion, but I wanna see what you make of this.

How is it 'too large', especially since you were just praising TWW, which clearly has an overworld that is immeasurably too large, and also OoT, who's overworld is really, really... Dull. ALttP doesn't have a tiny overworld, but it's hardly 'too large'. It takes 15 to 30 seconds to walk across the Desert of Mystery, less if you use the Pegasus Boots, how long does it take to get across the Haunted Wasteland? Or, hell, Hyrule Field? ALttP's overworld is not too large, I don't see how it can be called that. But one thing is for sure, it's certainly a LOT more interesting than OoT's.

Edited by Fyxe, 17 March 2007 - 11:03 AM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Wait, wait... Did somebody call ALttP unoriginal?

Hm, let's see...

ALttP Plot: Zelda convinces Link to go seek the Master Sword in order to defeat a great evil. He collects three pendants, to unleash the Master Sword. Once he does, however, he is eventually unwittingly transported to a Dark World, where he must awaken six sages, in order to break the barrier around Ganon's fortress and defeat him.

OoT Plot: Zelda voncinces Link to go seek the Master Sword in order to defeat a great evil. He collects three stones, to unleash the Master Sword. Once he does, however, he is unwittingly transported into the future, where he must awaken six sages, in order to break the barrier around Ganon's fortress and defeat him.

Wow... the originality!

(Yes, I know... technically in ALttP, they're Maidens and technically in OoT, Link only has to awaken five Sages, but you get the idea).

[FDL]

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Is there such thing as a perfect Zelda game? I'm not entirely sure, unless we use some kind of "Mastery" scoring criteria like UK magazines do when the actual game(s) pushes the technical performance of the console system to its absolute limit; i.e. As good as it can possibly get without causing major crashes. Calling Twilight Princess 'perfect' would be an exaggeration simply because:-

1. Storyline that didn't involve kids being carried off by monsters TWICE;
2. Some side-quests as any adventure is hollow without them;
3. Mini-games are essential yet are lacking, seriously there's no horse-back archery in a Zelda game? That's unforgivable Nintendo;
4. No damn wolf howling (am I the only one who found it annoying?);
5. A sense of urgency after Hyrule Castle is frozen;
6. Memorable music - those incorporated Midis were terrible;
7. Better designed or at least more intelligent NPCs - the townspeople repeated their same sentences no matter how far you progressed in the game;
8. Kakariko Village. Because the pathetic excuse for a village we got was virtually void of life;

1.Why does that bother you? They're MONSTERS! What do you expect them to do?
2.I agree, despite the fact that TP had possibly one of the best main quests, side quests were badly needed. I get the feeling that many of the things in the main quest were originally meant to be side quests, though.
3.I never understoodwhy people say TP was lacking in mingames, it had plenty. Fishing, Shoot-Canoeing, two Star games, Target practice, Goat-herding, and the many one-time only minigames such as Sumo wrestling, carriage-protecting, and others. TP had so much more variety than any other Zelda game, I think.
4.I didn't mind this, really
5.I agree, although it almost seems intentional. But I agree, both TWW and TP really sucked at making you worry about anything after you get the Master Sword.
6.Eh, I though the music was decent.
7.Yet this didn't bother you in virtually every game that wasn't MM? At least the people of Kakariko had different dialogue and everyone had different dialogue before you raised the twilight.
8.I agree again, Kakariko would have worked better as the sidequest hub as it was in OoT and Clocktown and Windfall were in MM and TWW. The fact that there would so many houses which were empty pissed me off, and Elde Inn SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE STOCK POT PART 2! That is all.

[Duke Serkol]

Wolf_ODonnell, on Mar 17 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

1. Stop using Ganon so much. The potential of screwing up a timeline is very high if we keep reusing him again and again.
2. More uses for money. Seriously, in all Zelda games, I end up with more money than I know what to do with.

Yes, Ganon should be put to rest for a loooong while. You can only make pork chop so many times before it stops being interesting. Seriously it's as bad as Sigma in Megaman X games (with the whole "Oh my, a new enemy! Oh my Sigma was behind it all!" routine)
I do believe that to this day LoZ is still the game that implemented money the best.

Wolf_ODonnell, on Mar 17 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

5. More game. I mean, come on! How quickly did we finish TP and TWW? Very.

If you don't give 'em the time to develop them, how do you expect to get good games?

[spunky-monkey]

I also agree that Ganon should be given a rest for a while; if he appears in PH then things will start getting ridiculous. Give Dark Link or some other villain an opportunity to shine. An invincible furry deity responsible for all the evil/chaotic things happening would be very appealing... What do you reckon Fyxe?

Fierce Deity Link, on Mar 17 2007, 03:02 PM, said:

1.Why does that bother you? They're MONSTERS! What do you expect them to do?

Once was good for story, but twice was just stupid and unnecessary.

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3.I never understoodwhy people say TP was lacking in mingames, it had plenty. Fishing, Shoot-Canoeing, two Star games, Target practice, Goat-herding, and the many one-time only minigames such as Sumo wrestling, carriage-protecting, and others. TP had so much more variety than any other Zelda game, I think.

Half of those aren't actually mini-games in the proper sense but sequences and means of transport you'd accidentally start, now compare those to what OoT, MM and TWW have given us and you'll understand how easy is it to feel "cheated". If you want evidence then I'll list the activities up here.

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7.Yet this didn't bother you in virtually every game that wasn't MM? At least the people of Kakariko had different dialogue and everyone had different dialogue before you raised the twilight.

The minor characters are far more detached in this game than any other title in recent years, which is inexcusable as development teams didn't even use previous Zelda instalments as references or examples for good RPG storytelling. All you get is an "emptiness" leaving me feeling deflated and unenthusiastic.

[Fyxe]

Um, only Colin was captured twice, the others only once. And if it wasn't for that, Link wouldn't of had that awesome first fight with King Bulblin.

[FDL]

Ricky, on Mar 17 2007, 05:05 PM, said:

Once was good for story, but twice was just stupid and unnecessary.

Apparently, they did that because they wanted to make you feel like you could relax and then surprise you with Colin being gone when you return to Kakariko. I think that worked in that regard, throughout the rest of the game it makes you feel uneasy and fear for the kid's safety, which was the point. Plus, it makes sense that the Bulblins would try to get the kids back if they went through the trouble of capturing them in the first place.

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Half of those aren't actually mini-games in the proper sense but sequences and means of transport you'd accidentally start, now compare those to what OoT, MM and TWW have given us and you'll understand how easy is it to feel "cheated". If you want evidence then I'll list the activities up here.

None of those games had as many as people say they had, though. OoT had archery, horse archery, horseback riding, fishing, and diving. TWW had battleship, shooting the barrels, sorting letters, the boat course, and sword training. Slightly more than TP, but not many more. MM did have many more, but that's because MM was the sidequest game.

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The minor characters are far more detached in this game than any other title in recent years, which is inexcusable as development teams didn't even use previous Zelda instalments as references or examples for good RPG storytelling. All you get is an "emptiness" leaving me feeling deflated and unenthusiastic.

How so? The people of OoT and TWW didn't have new dialogue either, and at least some of these characters appeared to know something was going on. I mean, I agree they could have done more with the NPC's, but the supporting cast was far more involved with Link's journey than ever before. TWW's characters knew absolutely nothing about what was going on, other than the bird, so after the FF they have no clue of anything. MM is the only Zelda game that has completely done NPC's right I think.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 17 March 2007 - 12:47 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Duke Serkol said

Yes, Ganon should be put to rest for a loooong while. You can only make pork chop so many times before it stops being interesting. Seriously it's as bad as Sigma in Megaman X games (with the whole "Oh my, a new enemy! Oh my Sigma was behind it all!" routine)

Well, they also mix it up with a little bit of Castlevania at times. You know, the whole 'revival of main baddy by lesser villain' thing. The Oracles are the best example of this.

Speaking of Castlevania, did anyone else notice how remarkably well SOTN's intro would work as the dialogue during the confrontation with Ganondorf in TP?

I guess that's not exactly a good thing...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 March 2007 - 01:01 PM.

[FDL]

How does Symphony of the Night's intro go, anyway?

[Hero of Legend]

(By the way, while I want voice acting in Zelda, I can see why some people have their doubts...)

Anyway...

Quote

Richter: "Die monster! You don't belong in this world!"

(Wow, Ganny's just been banished and all...)

Dracula: "It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute."

(Replace "humans" with "Twili" and you've got TP's storyline)

Richter: "Tribute!?! You steal men's souls and make them your slaves!"

(Poor Zant...)

Dracula: "Perhaps the same could be said of all religions..."

(Ganondorf isn't a big fan of the goddesses...)

Richter: "Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!"

(Midna doesn't like Ganondorf posing as a god)

Dracula: "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk... Have at you!"

(Is that an awesome line or what? Anyway, replace "miserable" with "amusing" and "secrets" with "pathetic(ness)" and it sounds just like something Ganny would say!)

Of course, I am kidding, but still...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 March 2007 - 01:26 PM.

[Fyxe]

Actually, Ganny seems quite fond of the goddess in Twilight Princess. He has their power. Just before he attacks using Zelda, he calls Link and Midna 'faithless fools', I believe.

[FDL]

Hero of Legend, on Mar 17 2007, 06:25 PM, said:

(By the way, while I want voice acting in Zelda, I can see why some people have their doubts...)

Anyway...
Of course, I am kidding, but still...

That is pretty similar, actually, although I like TP's better.

Fyxe, on Mar 17 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

Actually, Ganny seems quite fond of the goddess in Twilight Princess. He has their power. Just before he attacks using Zelda, he calls Link and Midna 'faithless fools', I believe.

He calls them faithless fools because he believes himself to be the chosen king of everything, hence why he says directly afterwards "You would take up arms against the King of light and shadow?" or something like that. He must not like the goddesses considering he took the time to defile the statue of them. Yeah, I'm guessing he dislikes them considering everyone who opposes him is apparently chosen by the gods(the sages, Link).

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 17 March 2007 - 01:48 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Fierce Deity Link said

That is pretty similar, actually, although I like TP's better.

Of course you do, I was never suggesting it was in any better than the real deal. Doing so would be nothing short of blasphemous.

Fyxe said

Actually, Ganny seems quite fond of the goddess in Twilight Princess. He has their power. Just before he attacks using Zelda, he calls Link and Midna 'faithless fools', I believe.

What? No, as FDL said, Ganondorf thinks of himself as a 'god' who can defy the goddesses and rule the world to his own liking. It is apparent he has nothing but spite for the gods. We know why from TWW.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 March 2007 - 02:10 PM.

[FDL]

Hero of Legend, on Mar 17 2007, 07:07 PM, said:

Of course you do, I was never suggesting it was in any better than the real deal. Doing so would be nothing short of blasphemous.

Is this some sort of jab at your deeming me a TP fanboy? Cuz that's not why I like it better.