99 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Arturo and I have been discussing an old topic I had on my board, and he likes it so much he asked me to start it here.

As a forewaord: I wrote this back in a time when I was somewhat dissatisfied with the continuity in the series. That is no longer tha case today as I am quite happy with all of it.
Like I said, this topic is here simply because Artuto believes it would make for an interesting debate.
So without any further delay:

Basically the idea is for each of us to describe what changes they would have made to the games if they had the final word (obviously Tingle wouldn't exist). I'll start.

LoZ: Considering the times, I guess my last word would have been just "Wow..."

AoL: I would have had the game made as an hybrid, half side scroller half top viewed (think of how FSA goes side scroller in the Tower of the Winds)
Also an extended happy ending, sort of like ALttP's one (the real one, not the one I'm going to describe here)

ALttP: The game itself is perfect, but if I had the final word, the in-game story (and some of the background) would have been developed differently.
First off, in the backstory, Ganon would have lost the Triforce at the end of the Imprisoning War. It would have remained in Hyrule where a King would have used it to rule justly 'till the beginning of the game: the day after his death.
Agahnim comes to the castle and manipulates the Prince (who could only obtain two parts of the Triforce) into locking up and interrogating his sister for the Triforce parts the prince didn't inherit, thus effectively gaining control of the castle.
From there, the game continues as we know it, saving Zelda hiding her in the Sanctuary and retrieving the Master Sword. Then Agahnim (having finished brainwashing the guards) imprisons the Prince, seizes Zelda and sends her to the Dark World together with the one of Triforce parts (the other was entrusted to Link by Zelda).
Again everything continues as normal, Link fights him goes in the Dark World, saves the Maidens and Zelda. However after the second fight with Agahnim, when he is dying and "releasing" Ganon, Zelda tries to seal away the latter, but Agahnim's magic is stronger and puts Zelda into eternal sleep. Then you go fight Ganon BUT using Light Arrows so he doesn't go splodin'. Ganon is assumed dead and Link returns to the Light World with the two Triforce parts.
There is no "Yay everybody revived with Triforce!!1" ending, the ending is bittersweet, starting with the fanfare (and showing the people living peacefully) and continuing over the music we have for the credits to show mourning for the fallen, Zelda being placed on her altar by Link and the Prince and (back in his pyramid) Ganon's ashes being carefully collected.

LA: Would have had a ship pick up Link in the end. That's all.
Oh and a hint should have been given in the owl's speech before you enter the egg so you know revealing the way to reach the last boss requires you to do side quests.

BS Zelda: Would have starred Link, expanded the story of the first game and introduced elements from ALttP (like say, a village)

AST: I think another villain could benefit this game. And one less baseball cap. Naturally I would have had the game make it to the west somehow (even with no scoring, no voices and just ALttP music) perhaps as a limited release or something like that, 'cuz I doubt marketing would have approved a normal release for a game so similar to ALttP.

OoT: I would have made it clear that the war which happened before the game was caused by the suspicion that other races could be close to finding the Triforce.
Navi wouldn't have stated the obvious so much, nor solved all the puzzles for you.
Gerudo guards would have stood besides Ganondorf and behind him when he appears to you after you first pull out the Master Sword (oh and it would have been possible to fight them in their fortress, to hell with stealth)
Also I guess Ruto and Darunia would have had different names and not have been Sages (because of the all-human maidens in ALttP. Dunno who the "new Ruto and Darunia" could have been though). They would still have helped Link in his journey though, of course.
In the ending Ganondorf is sealed without his Triforce part and Link is not sent back in time and either made a Knight, or goes back as usual by putting the sword back (best solution in fact)
Hyrule doesn't get a happy ending (read new timeline) in which it is spared those seven years. They happen as normal with Link appearing from the Temple of Time after Ganon takes over. The Link that went back in time leaves as in MM so no worries about them meeting.

MM: Should have taken place a few years after Link began his travels (so he's not a child but not quite an adult either, as in AlttP). Would have had at least 7 dungeons. Would have had no damned anachronisms, a better overworld map... and why not, a love interest for Link (like Marin was in LA). Maybe it could have been Termina's version of Zelda.
Also Skullkid could, perhaps, turn out to be Link's termina self that got lost into some enchanted woods.

Oracles: No Triforce, no Twinrova (since there is no split-timeline), but the games would still fit well as Ganon's resurrection before LoZ (and to explain where all the races of OoT went). Therefore, Ganon would of course not die at the end, but be somehow incapacited for several generations (trapped by his own madness?)
Oh and the game would have had all new music (remixes are good, re-usings are not) and the ending would not have tied in with LA.
And I would have not permitted many silly things like kangaroos and flying bears (note as of today: oh boy, Fyxe and Ricky are going to kill me...), or the re-use of characters other than Link and Zelda (Like Malon. Impa is okay because she's obviously a different character with the same name) this applies also for FSA and MC.

TWW: Would not exist. Seriously. There's just not enough worth saving in this one. I would just have had some of the ideas re-used for other games (like gliding) (Note as of today: again, I have since then changed my mind about TWW. There are still many things I don't like about it, but I'd love to see a DX version fixing them)

FS: Same as is, but allowing you to go solo.

FSA: With OoT changed the way I suggested, this game would probably have had a very different story. Perhaps it could be the prequel in which Vaati kidnaps maidens and is sealed in the sword?

MC: The Picori Blade would have looked differently. Again Ezlo wouldn't have stated the obvious so much and the game would have been twice as long (with perhaps the second half being set in the Minish Realm).
If FSA had not been made a prequel, in the ending Vaati would have been sealed in the Four Sword, not gone boom and he would have kidnapped some maidens during the game. The Light Force, revealed to be the Triforce, would have been taken back by the Minish into the Sacred Realm, and seven Sages (gathered during the -longer- adventure) would have created a sword to seal the entrance.
Obviously, without TWW, these last three games would have had a different style (not kiddy)

Well that was it. What do you guys thinks? Care to write something like this yourselves (even for just a few games)?

(Note as of today: TP wasn't out yet... and yes I know I'm going to be slaughtered for some of these comments...)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 14 March 2007 - 05:00 PM.

[Fyxe]

AoL: I would have had the game made as an hybrid, half side scroller half top viewed (think of how FSA goes side scroller in the Tower of the Winds)

Except that the actual battles in the side-scrolling sections of LA/FSA, other than the bosses, kinda suck. AoL simply needs flashier graphics, more puzzles, and a more fluid fighting system, I say. Also, no instant death when falling into water/lava. Too harsh, since it's too easy to get randomly knocked off a platform. The whole Feild/Action thing is part of the style, I think.

ALttP: blah blah blah

NO.
I find it slightly disconcerting that you would rewrite or remove games entirely simply to fit your personal idea of the timeline. o.o What about gameplay? Honestly. If you didn't have ALttP as it was, you wouldn't have the later games as they are.

LA: Would have had a ship pick up Link in the end. That's all.

BIG NO. Why? We don't need to see him being picked up or washing ashore. It'd ruin the mood.

Oh and a hint should have been given in the owl's speech before you enter the egg so you know revealing the way to reach the last boss requires you to do side quests.

Why? What's wrong with having the player not know what to do? That's half of the fun of playing games with puzzles. The player, not knowing what to do, would wander around and eventually finish off the trading sequence.

[Tekky]

For TWW, I'd have made Link and characters look more like the Official Art for the Oracles (but still be cel shaded)
I'd have made the Great Sea smaller, and have had some of the 2nd part of the quest actually involving exploring Hyrule, and getting pieces of the Triforce from dungeons. I wouldnt have had the Master Sword powered by 2 sages praying, and have come up witha different explanation for why Ganon kicks Links ass at the half way point. I'd also have had Ganon raise Hyrule at the end, only to get his ass kicked by Link and Zelda...

I'd have disposed of the Oocca in TP... And had the Temple of Time dungeon actually be the Temple of Light! And mentioned the Triforce more explicitly...

[spunky-monkey]

Hmm sounds interesting...let me take a crack at it (if I leave any titles out its because I can't be bothered):


LoZ: First 2-D game. Perfect for 8-bit graphics and the player could actually save up to three separate quests in the 80s. The ending sucks but this was the typical norm.

AoL: Not much to say here, there are major flaws but according to N64 Magazine it was Miyamoto's abortive attempt at a 3-D Zelda game and made by another development team so it may have an excuse for being the "black sheep" of the series.

ALttP: Link's 16-bit outing is a timeless classic. However the light/dark overworld is unnecessarily huge which would normally be a good thing, except there's a lack of NPCs and/or side quests making the gameplay of transverse dungeon to dungeon rather repetitive. I can forgive Nintendo for neglecting back-story but this adventure was only on an 8-megabit cartridge - SNES could utilise 48 Megabits! Games like Seiken Densetsu 3 show exactly what the system was really capable of.

LA: First title on a handheld console so again it's not fair to complain. Owl annoys the dickens outta me.


OoT: This revolutionary 3-D adventure set the standard, it maybe aging graphical-speaking but everything else screams EPIC. Side quests were lacking but the main quest is so awesome this isn't noticeable at all.

MM: Beautiful. Taking the strengths from Ocarina of Time and improving on minor weaknesses Nintendo made a wonderful sequel. It possesses an enchanting dark atmosphere which combined with the tried-&-tested cartoony happy-go-lucky characters creates a perfect blend within a 'real-time illusion'. The only irritation arises from that awkward saving system and lack of NPC routine outside Clock Town.

Oracles: Greatly balanced games with a decent challenge, but the link/password system was gimmicky and bothersome. Loved how well Ricky the kangaroo and that fat ass Moosh worked. :3

And I would have not permitted many silly things like kangaroos and flying bears (note as of today: oh boy, Fyxe and Ricky are going to kill me...)

Macropus Mocker! You have invoked the eternal wrath of the gender confused boxing kangaroo, prepare yourself for much punishment and whatnot. ;P


TWW: There are missing dungeons that SHOULD NOT have been dropped (what were you thinking Eiji?). Gameplay is awful because it requires you to sail everywhere and constantly changing the wind direction is a complete and utter bore. Fighting monsters is too easy, not to mention Tingle's Triforce Charts being pivotal to the storyline is just a JOKE.

MC: Loved this one as it re-established the "magic" in the series I thought had died after N64 disappeared. The Minish race was a brilliant addition though I wish they helped Link more in the final struggle against Vaati. It does suffer from a pathetically easy difficulty and the overworld is way too darn small (no pun intended).

TP: A step back in the right direction. Storyline is great, boss fights are amazingly dramatic, and Epona looks gorgeous she is exhilarating to ride across a vast Hyrule. But...Where the hell are all the side quests and mini-games!?

[Duke Serkol]

For TWW, I'd have made Link and characters look more like the Official Art for the Oracles (but still be cel shaded)
I'd have made the Great Sea smaller, and have had some of the 2nd part of the quest actually involving exploring Hyrule, and getting pieces of the Triforce from dungeons.

I agree wholeheartedly. And it should have had bigger islands (at least a few more like Outset), like navi Trackers maybe.

come up witha different explanation for why Ganon kicks Links ass at the half way point.

But what about when Link gets his ass kicked near the end?

I'd have disposed of the Oocca in TP... And had the Temple of Time dungeon actually be the Temple of Light! And mentioned the Triforce more explicitly...

Again, agreed

there's a lack of NPCs and/or side quests making the gameplay of transverse dungeon to dungeon rather repetitive.

Weren't side quests invented in LA? (Kidding )

this adventure was only on an 8-megabit cartridge - SNES could utilise 48 Megabits!

But let's not forget ALttP was one of the earliest games on the console. I certainly always hoped for a sequel to be released (especially when a rumor begun to circulate that it would sport looks similar to Mario RPG)

Gameplay is awful because it requires you to sail everywhere and constantly changing the wind direction is a complete and utter bore. Fighting monsters is too easy, not to mention Tingle's Triforce Charts being pivotal to the storyline is just a JOKE.

Quoted for truth.

[Fyxe]

How the fook were Tingle's charts 'pivotal' to the storyline?

He can make and decipher maps. He can decipher the Triforce charts. It costs money. That's *it*.

Sailing was great, the problem being that you had to change the wind direction regularly and you could not do it swiftly. That's a well recognised flaw, but there was nothing wrong with the sailing apart from that.

[spunky-monkey]

But let's not forget ALttP was one of the earliest games on the console. I certainly always hoped for a sequel to be released (especially when a rumor begun to circulate that it would sport looks similar to Mario RPG)

This is true, though why Nintendo didn't release a Super Nintendo sequel somewhere between 1994 and 1995 is beyond me. We had to wait for years for them to finish Ocarina of Time too.

How the fook were Tingle's charts 'pivotal' to the storyline?

Because if you don't free Tingle from prison, and pay the miserable *astard a total of 3,184 Rupees to decipher all 8 charts you can't reassemble the Triforce of Courage.

[Showsni]

Sailing was great, the problem being that you had to change the wind direction regularly and you could not do it swiftly. That's a well recognised flaw, but there was nothing wrong with the sailing apart from that.

Too right! They should have made it more realistic by not letting you change the wind direction, but have it act randomly/realistically. So if you want to go against the wind, you have to tack. Real Zelda players never change the wind when they're sailing. Tacking gets you there eventually.

The islands were too small, though.

LoZ: Some kind of map? Oh, wait, there was one in the instruction book. I guess that's okay, then.

AoL: A way to not have to trek miles and miles every time you get game over... Like an insta-save point you can start back at where you save from. Maybe beyond the sytem's capabilities...

[Fyxe]

This is true, though why Nintendo didn't release a Super Nintendo sequel somewhere between 1994 and 1995 is beyond me.

Link's Awakening, that's why.

Because if you don't free Tingle from prison, and pay the miserable *astard a total of 3,184 Rupees to decipher all 8 charts you can't reassemble the Triforce of Courage.

And if you don't find a sail from someone in town, you can't do that either. Just because minor characters allow you to progress in the game doesn't make them pivotal to the plot.

[Duke Serkol]

AoL: A way to not have to trek miles and miles every time you get game over... Like an insta-save point you can start back at where you save from. Maybe beyond the sytem's capabilities...

Something like Link's Awakening save system which allowed you to restart at any cave/home/dungeon/doghouse entrance?

[Hero of Slime]

Aol needs hearts. AoL is the only game not to have them and it is to troublesome to cast healing all the time. The hearts would not need to be as common as they are in the later Zelda games. Just have an enemy drop one once in a while. If there are hearts then life meter should be changed to hearts.

I liked the sailing thing in TWW but I think it needed more diversity in it's islands. More big islands and less small islands. I don't get why there needed to be six eye-reef islands, five islands with only a fairy's fountain, and three small islands with only a statue for a pearl.

[spunky-monkey]

Link's Awakening, that's why.

I really wish you were right Fyxe, but that was released in 1993 meaning there was still a ridiculous five-year long wait until Ocarina. They weren't yet working on Project Reality/Ultra 64/Nintendo 64 project so one must ask why exactly was Nintendo messing around for so long with a CD-ROM-based peripheral for their SNES? (Along with those dead-end contracts with Sony and Phillips) You'd think they could have used this time to develop a superior-in-every-way title to ALttP on the console instead (oh no, KnS doesn't count, don't you even go there).

And if you don't find a sail from someone in town, you can't do that either. Just because minor characters allow you to progress in the game doesn't make them pivotal to the plot.

That's your choice of wording, but point taken anyway. If the game revolves around them then it briefly makes them essential to the main quest as well as storyline; you can choose to ignore other minor characters and be able to complete TWW, but you can't ignore or skip Tingle and I'm afraid that's another flaw, especially since Eiji already knew how much western gamers hated that character (magazine interview).

I liked the sailing thing in TWW but I think it needed more diversity in it's islands. More big islands and less small islands. I don't get why there needed to be six eye-reef islands, five islands with only a fairy's fountain, and three small islands with only a statue for a pearl.

I agree with you entirely, sailing wouldn't have been nearly so tedious if there were larger islands spaced apart that took up 3 to 4 square grids on that map.

[Fyxe]

I really wish you were right Fyxe, but that was released in 1993 meaning there was still a ridiculous five-year long wait until Ocarina. They weren't yet working on Project Reality/Ultra 64/Nintendo 64 project so one must ask why exactly was Nintendo messing around for so long with a CD-ROM-based peripheral for their SNES? (Along with those dead-end contracts with Sony and Phillips) You'd think they could have used this time to develop a superior-in-every-way title to ALttP on the console instead (oh no, KnS doesn't count, don't you even go there).

Remember, the N64 was out for a long time before OoT was released. They had began working on Project Reality not long after LA had been released. There was simply not enough time to create a sequel to ALttP, because they were working on the N64 version for a long long time.
Besides, lots of other nonsense was going on at the same time.

KnS was them doing something for the fans while they waited for a proper full-length cartridge game.

especially since Eiji already knew how much western gamers hated that character (magazine interview).

I don't hate Tingle. He's MEANT to be freaky. He's meant to be disturbing. He's part of the series, whether people like it or not. I laugh when people rant and rave about him because they're missing the point. He's *meant* to freak you out or annoy you.

[FDL]

Here's the stuff I would like changed, though there isn't much. Anyway, I'm not just going to mention storyline stuff.


LoZ: I dunno, maybe something that actually let's you find bombable walls that isn't just guesswork. Maybe more "classic" Zelda stuff, such as being able to use items in battle like the bow and boomerang.

AoL: No Sleeping Zelda thing. Just make her the Zelda from the first one.

ALttP: In retrospect, maybe having some explanation as to why Ganondorf has the full Triforce despite the fact he never had it before or since. More sidequests and less tedious dungeons towards the end.

LA: You can steal without being called THIEF for the rest of the damn game. 999 rupees for a bow?! That's ROBBERY!

OoT: Be able to give away the Bunny Hood before you see the scene with Ganondorf. More details on the fierce wars. Something like Epona or a warp system as a child, possibly.

MM: Nothing except maybe mention post-OoT events a bit more, clear that up.

OoS/A: They shouldn't feel like some random thing that has nothing to do with the rest of the games.

TWW: Lose the connections to OoT, give it room for some of the other games like ALttP. Make some of the stuff less tedious such as the Magic Armor side quest. Have more of a sense of urgency after you beat the Forsaken Fortress, everyone's too oblivious as it is now. Make it possible to actually complete the various grottos and tasks across the Great Sea before you get bombs. Make the Great Sea smaller.

FS: Single player

FSA: Make it less messy in connections with the other games.

TMC: Have it possible to get the Mirror Shield before you beat the game. Make Vaati a Wind Mage. Don't represent the light force as a triangle.

TP: More sidequests. More urgency after you get the MS, as in have Ganondorf or Zant actually do stuff after Zant tries to kill you in the AG. Maybe give us more background on the Sages and explain what they have to do with OoT's sages. Make the Temple of Time more OoT reference heavy with statues and pictures of OoT characters or somesuch.

[Fyxe]

LoZ: I dunno, maybe something that actually let's you find bombable walls that isn't just guesswork. Maybe more "classic" Zelda stuff, such as being able to use items in battle like the bow and boomerang.

Spuh? You can use the Bow and Boomerang. They're like... The first two items you get. o.o

LA: You can steal without being called THIEF for the rest of the damn game. 999 rupees for a bow?! That's ROBBERY!

It would be if it wasn't for the fact that the game THROWS money at you.

OoT: Be able to give away the Bunny Hood before you see the scene with Ganondorf.

Actually, you might as well just remove the Forest Stage glitch.

Something like Epona or a warp system as a child, possibly.

Technically, there is a warp system, there are three 'warps' in the game.

OoS/A: They shouldn't feel like some random thing that has nothing to do with the rest of the games.

I thought they followed on from ALttP fairly well, given a good period of time. But that's me.

Don't represent the light force as a triangle.

Unless, shockingly, it was intentional?

Maybe give us more background on the Sages and explain what they have to do with OoT's sages. Make the Temple of Time more OoT reference heavy with statues and pictures of OoT characters or somesuch.

Noooo too many references as it is. o.o

[Duke Serkol]

Aol needs hearts.

True

but that was released in 1993 meaning there was still a ridiculous five-year long wait until Ocarina. They weren't yet working on Project Reality/Ultra 64/Nintendo 64 project

Well, it is possible to start working on a game before actually coding it. Like conceptualizing what the game will be like and everything that will be in it (puzzles, characters...) I do believe the reason OoT was so good is because they did not rush it.

you can't ignore or skip Tingle and I'm afraid that's another flaw, especially since Eiji already knew how much western gamers hated that character (magazine interview).

And in Japan they have it even worse, because they don't even have Tingle and his "fantastic" chart to help them and so must explore every single bit of land in the game.

LoZ: I dunno, maybe something that actually let's you find bombable walls that isn't just guesswork.

Something like in MC or FSA would be good (in those games there were hints of where you ought to bomb, but it wasn't so obvious you couldn't miss it)

Maybe more "classic" Zelda stuff, such as being able to use items in battle like the bow and boomerang.

Uh? You sure you're not thinking of AoL? LoZ had those...

ALttP: In retrospect, maybe having some explanation as to why Ganondorf has the full Triforce despite the fact he never had it before or since.

Well, before OoT came out he was supposed to have had it for centuries... or is that just what you meant?

OoT: Be able to give away the Bunny Hood before you see the scene with Ganondorf.

Why? (I mean, I never thought of that, so I'm curious)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 15 March 2007 - 10:36 AM.

[Tekky]

LA: You can steal without being called THIEF for the rest of the damn game. 999 rupees for a bow?! That's ROBBERY!

Get a discounted bow, by saving and quitting just as you pay for it!

Of course, that requires you to get 980 rupees, but as Fyxe rightly says, there is lots of money in the game!

[FDL]

Spuh? You can use the Bow and Boomerang. They're like... The first two items you get. o.o

Crap, I meant to put that in the AoL section.

It would be if it wasn't for the fact that the game THROWS money at you.

But not early in the game.

Actually, you might as well just remove the Forest Stage glitch.

I doubt it's a glitch considering they have had so many chances to do so.

Technically, there is a warp system, there are three 'warps' in the game.

I'm just thinking about the running back and forth you have to do for the mask thing and the child Skulltullas if you're a "get stuff right as soon as you can" guy like me.

I thought they followed on from ALttP fairly well, given a good period of time. But that's me.

But nothing really important happened at all is mainly what I'm saying. They felt like a sidestory which tried and failed to include elements of the main games. But it doesn't really matter to me.

Unless, shockingly, it was intentional?

Fine, if it wasn't intentional. I, myself, think it's meant to be the "magic blood" the Hylians supposedly have.

Noooo too many references as it is. o.o

Not in the Temple of Time. The Temple of Time dungeon seemed surprisingly unimportant to the storyline, just another place to put a mirror shard.

Something like in MC or FSA would be good (in those games there were hints of where you ought to bomb, but it wasn't so obvious you couldn't miss it)

Yeah, something like that.

Uh? You sure you're not thinking of AoL? LoZ had those...

See above.

Well, before OoT came out he was supposed to have had it for centuries... or is that just what you meant?

What I mean is that in LoZ, OoT, TP, and TWW he has the Triforce of Power only, but in ALttP he has the whole thing.

Why? (I mean, I never thought of that, so I'm curious)

Because it ruins the flow of the game I think. When you see that scene with Ganondorf you immediately want to grab the Master Sword but if you want to get everything you have to trade the mask, give the money to the Salesman, and then go to the Forest Stage.

Get a discounted bow, by saving and quitting just as you pay for it!

Of course, that requires you to get 980 rupees, but as Fyxe rightly says, there is lots of money in the game!

Yeah, I'm aware of that glitch, I've used it many times, but you still have to wait until you actually have that many rupees to do it, which is my main problem, the amount of time it takes to collect that much.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Three words: Needs more bishies.

[Crazy Penguin]

And in Japan they have it even worse, because they don't even have Tingle and his "fantastic" chart to help them and so must explore every single bit of land in the game.

Wait, what?

[Duke Serkol]

What I said. The Japanese game doesn't have the chart to find Triforce charts (which you still need to pay Tingle for "deciphering" actually, so I was wrong in saying that he isn't mandatory).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 15 March 2007 - 06:42 PM.

[Fyxe]

But not early in the game.

No, because then you'd get the Bow too early. There's a reason.

I doubt it's a glitch considering they have had so many chances to do so.

It's a glitch, they just don't seem to be bothered to fix it, if they even know about it.

I'm just thinking about the running back and forth you have to do for the mask thing and the child Skulltullas if you're a "get stuff right as soon as you can" guy like me.

Well, don't be that guy, it makes the game too easy. It's already easy enough. o.o

Yeah, I'm aware of that glitch, I've used it many times, but you still have to wait until you actually have that many rupees to do it, which is my main problem, the amount of time it takes to collect that much.

Firstly, CHEATER.

Secondly, why bother not spending your money? It just makes all the remaining chests in the game (of which there are easily enough to get well over 999 Rupees again) redundant.

Thirdly, as I said before, you're not MEANT to be able to buy the Bow straight away. It's an *intentional limitation*. Why do you think arrows only start appearing once you reach the Catfish's Maw, which is incidently the first dungeon where the bow is actually useful?

Three words: Needs more bishies.

I LOVE YOU.

Edited by Fyxe, 15 March 2007 - 09:00 PM.

[SOAP]

OoX: I would change only one small detail. Link and Zelda would already know each other, making it easier for this Link to be one of the previous Links, most likely ALttP Link.

TWW: I loved this game but after a certian point it just drags until the final battle with Ganon. I think one more dungeon for Nayru's pearl involving the Zora, as well as third Water Temple and Water Sage to further empower Link's sword will remedy this. Also, in regards to the hunt for the Triforce shards, instead of having the see Tingle and scrounging the ocean floor, some peices you gain from sidequests that test your courage. The final remaining peice, Link has a flashback of seeing at his house somewhere. You rush back to Outset, only to realize a huge storm has shrouded the island (carried over from Greatfish Island which would be just a normal island in my version). Inside Link's house, his grandma has grown terribly ill and is lying in her bed. She tells link the family secret, a strange peice of gold that has been passed down their family through the ages. She goes on and retells KoRL speech about the ToC, how it once belonged to the Hero of Time, how it got shattered but goes into more personal detail and reveals that Link is indeed the decendant of the Hero of Time. She points at the jewelry box and Link opens it to obtain the last shard of Courage.

TP: I change Death Mountian's position. I understand why it's there from a gameplay perspective but it just annoys the hell out of me. I'd put Death Mountain around the "Hidden Village" area, putting Kakariko where the Hidden Village is and putting the Hidden village somwhere in the empty space between Snowpeak and Gerudo Desert. Faron Woods I'd put where Death Mountain was originally and rename the Kakariko Gulch to Kokiri Gultch. The Temple of Time I put in the sewers of Castle Town amongst the ruins of the ancient market place.

[FDL]

Firstly, CHEATER.

Secondly, why bother not spending your money? It just makes all the remaining chests in the game (of which there are easily enough to get well over 999 Rupees again) redundant.

You at least lose half your rupees with this trick.

TWW: I loved this game but after a certian point it just drags until the final battle with Ganon. I think one more dungeon for Nayru's pearl involving the Zora, as well as third Water Temple and Water Sage to further empower Link's sword will remedy this. Also, in regards to the hunt for the Triforce shards, instead of having the see Tingle and scrounging the ocean floor, some peices you gain from sidequests that test your courage. The final remaining peice, Link has a flashback of seeing at his house somewhere. You rush back to Outset, only to realize a huge storm has shrouded the island (carried over from Greatfish Island which would be just a normal island in my version). Inside Link's house, his grandma has grown terribly ill and is lying in her bed. She tells link the family secret, a strange peice of gold that has been passed down their family through the ages. She goes on and retells KoRL speech about the ToC, how it once belonged to the Hero of Time, how it got shattered but goes into more personal detail and reveals that Link is indeed the decendant of the Hero of Time. She points at the jewelry box and Link opens it to obtain the last shard of Courage.

But how could that happen? If Link "disappeared into the flows of time" how could he have started a family? The only way he could have any descendants would be if he fathered an illegitimate kid.

TP: I change Death Mountian's position. I understand why it's there from a gameplay perspective but it just annoys the hell out of me. I'd put Death Mountain around the "Hidden Village" area, putting Kakariko where the Hidden Village is and putting the Hidden village somwhere in the empty space between Snowpeak and Gerudo Desert. Faron Woods I'd put where Death Mountain was originally and rename the Kakariko Gulch to Kokiri Gultch. The Temple of Time I put in the sewers of Castle Town amongst the ruins of the ancient market place.

I don't think the Faron Province is meant to be the Kokiri Forest, though. I mean, it could be a retcon of it's location like Zora's Domain but the fact that the Kokiri nor the Deku Tree are ever seen makesme more inclined to believe that it's meant to be an unseen section of the woods, such as the Lost Woods in the opening of MM.

[Hero of Legend]

I don't think the Faron Province is meant to be the Kokiri Forest, though. I mean, it could be a retcon of it's location like Zora's Domain but the fact that the Kokiri nor the Deku Tree are ever seen makesme more inclined to believe that it's meant to be an unseen section of the woods, such as the Lost Woods in the opening of MM.

Actually, and I suppose I should have mentioned this in our debate, the Forest Temple shows blatant signs of being an abandoned Kokiri Village. You can see the Kokiri Emerald on every door and such. And to top it off it is inside a giant tree, just like in TWW.

And the Sacred Grove is supposed to be the Lost Woods (the part from OoT). I can only imagine Nintendo were clever with an ALttP reference that also ties in with the Sacred Meadow from OoT.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 16 March 2007 - 08:59 AM.

[FDL]

Actually, and I suppose I should have mentioned this in our debate, the Forest Temple shows blatant signs of being an abandoned Kokiri Village. You can see the Kokiri Emerald on every door and such. And to top it off it is inside a giant tree, just like in TWW.

And the Sacred Grove is supposed to be the Lost Woods (the part from OoT). I can only imagine Nintendo were clever with an ALttP reference that also ties in with the Sacred Meadow from OoT.

Why would you mention it in our debate? It's a connection to OoT which would go against what you were debating! But really, I thought of it being an abandoned Kokiri temple but the symbols on the doors are actually in reverse/mirrored. So it may not be.

As for the Sacred Grove, you're saying that we just never found our way into the village itself? I mean, it could be the same Lost Woods, but I'm more inclined to believe it's a part not seen in OoT, just as there was in MM's opening.

[Hero of Legend]

Why would you mention it in our debate? It's a connection to OoT which would go against what you were debating!

Exactly. I wouldn’t be much of a debater if I couldn't see whatever flaws that do exist in my own arguments. I will admit I am often too lazy to point them out to others that do not spot them, but I at least know they are there, and explain them to myself.

But really, I thought of it being an abandoned Kokiri temple but the symbols on the doors are actually in reverse/mirrored. So it may not be.

Well, it’s not the only symbol that has changed throughout the years. Besides, I cannot imagine it representing any other race. It wouldn't make sense for the development team to simply make up yet another unseen race.

As for the Sacred Grove, you're saying that we just never found our way into the village itself? I mean, it could be the same Lost Woods, but I'm more inclined to believe it's a part not seen in OoT, just as there was in MM's opening.

I'm quite confident Nintendo wanted people to think it was the same part of the Lost Woods. After all, the Skull Kid lives there, and as I said, the Temple of Time (and the way to it) shares rather distinct similarities with the Forest Temple inside the Sacred Forest Meadow (notice the similar names?). Of course, that doesn't explain why the Temple of Time is there instead of the Forest Temple... But then again, I do believe we can safetly say that's because of the Forest's power (it does appear to be connected to pretty much every place in Hyrule). Thus, the Temple’s new location might not be as much of a problem as we once thought...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 16 March 2007 - 10:16 AM.

[FDL]

Exactly. I wouldn’t be much of a debater if I couldn't see whatever flaws that do exist in my own arguments. I will admit I am often too lazy to point them out to others that do not spot them, but I at least know they are there, and explain them to myself.

Heh, I'm messing with you anyways.

Well, it’s not the only symbol that has changed throughout the years. Besides, I cannot imagine it representing any other race. It wouldn't make sense for the development team to simply make up yet another unseen race.

Yeah, true.

I'm quite confident Nintendo wanted people to think it was the same part of the Lost Woods. After all, the Skull Kid lives there, and as I said, the Temple of Time (and the way to it) shares rather distinct similarities with the Forest Temple inside the Sacred Forest Meadow (notice the similar names?). Of course, that doesn't explain why the Temple of Time is there instead of the Forest Temple... But then again, I do believe we can safetly say that's because of the Forest's power (it does appear to be connected to pretty much every place in Hyrule). Thus, the Temple’s new location might not be as much of a problem as we once thought...

As I've said before, the Skull Kid is specifically guarding the Master Sword, so he could very well be the Skull Kid of OoT/MM and this would explain why he's there. But, anyway, are you suggesting that we don't see the Kokiri merely because Link's an outsider in this game or because they have died off? Because I don't believe the "died off" theory myself.

Oh yeah, and as for the problem of the Temple's new location, I believe it may simply be a retcon. It could even provide an alternate explanation as to why Link is searching for Navi in the Lost Woods, rather than the commonly held idea that it's because she lived near there.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 16 March 2007 - 11:41 AM.

[Nimiety]

As I've said before, the Skull Kid is specifically guarding the Master Sword, so he could very well be the Skull Kid of OoT/MM and this would explain why he's there. But, anyway, are you suggesting that we don't see the Kokiri merely because Link's an outsider in this game or because they have died off? Because I don't believe the "died off" theory myself.

Actually, what if they did die off? The Deku Tree dies in the child timeline, and we don't know if there was a sapling to take its place like there was in the adult timeline. Can the Kokiri survive without their guardian deity? I guess it's not really an answerable question, but it does throw some delightful ambiguity into the situation.

[Fyxe]

Actually, what if they did die off? The Deku Tree dies in the child timeline, and we don't know if there was a sapling to take its place like there was in the adult timeline.

Why wouldn't there be? Nothing Link does stops the sapling from existing.

As for the subject of the Kokiri in Twilight Princess, they're not there, and nor is the Deku Tree. However, as an amusing little theory... What if Forest Temple = The Deku Tree and the monkeys = the new forms of the Kokiri? I very much doubt it, of course, but it's a sweet little idea.