94 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

I don't see why the Triforce of Wisdom is so damn important if all it does is reveal that Ganon is in the room, which Link would know *anyway*

I think by lighting up the room it allows Link to at least see Ganon when he's struck. Failing that, Link would have had troubles shooting him with the arrow (though for how long Ganon stays stunned you can fire arrows in the whole room... but that's gameplay).
Not that I believe it stops to that, I do believe the Triforce parts endow them with qualities that give them an edge (something that is rather hard to depict in game, of course), but still I don't think a normal candle would havepierced Ganon's Darkness.

[Fyxe]

No, I don't think he ever has any *real* control. But I do think the Triforce of Courage empowers Link so he can face Ganon, even if we never see it actually being actively used.

I haven't finished Zelda II yet, so I'm interested in how the ending works in that game, considering the game is all about the Triforce of Courage. I'll finish it soon, though. No spoilers please! XP

[Duke Serkol]

By the way, is anybody still going crazy about the Triforce marks during the final battle of TWW?

[Raien]

No, I don't think he ever has any *real* control. But I do think the Triforce of Courage empowers Link so he can face Ganon, even if we never see it actually being actively used.

You mean the Triforce of Wisdom, I presume.

That said, LoZ is in a very different context to OoT, TP & TWW, so it probably is likely that Link was able to find power in possessing the ToW to face Ganon. When ZL is back up, I want to read the LoZ manual again to see what it says on the subject.

PS: The English manual does actually support what you say, Fyxe. There's still the Japanese translation to read, though.

Edited by jhurvid, 22 February 2007 - 09:15 PM.

[FDL]

But was it on the back of his hand before the portal was opened?

I don't believe so.

[The Missing Link]

PS: The English manual does actually support what you say, Fyxe. There's still the Japanese translation to read, though.

Everyone knows that the Klingon version of the manual is far more canon than a silly Japanese one.

[MikePetersSucks]

Link didn't use the ToC to open that passage. He held the ToC up for the gods to acknowledge him, and they bestowed it upon him and opened the passage.

Lawlz Metaphorz.

[FDL]

By the way, is anybody still going crazy about the Triforce marks during the final battle of TWW?

Yes, I'm still angry about that. It's not even like the only time we see the characters is when they have the Triforce, so it almost seems intentional. But if they wanted us to believe the Triforce went back to them, why couldn't they have had the Triforce pieces glow and disappear rather than fly away?

[Raien]

Lawlz Metaphorz.

How so? What is there in the text or the visuals that changes the literal context into a metaphorical context?

[Fyxe]

He was talking about the 'opening the passage' stuff. Take a course in perversion awareness.

MPS, however, needs to take a course in 'pretending to be a l337 speaking AOLer is not funny anymore'.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 February 2007 - 01:40 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

MPS, however, needs to take a course in 'pretending to be a l337 speaking AOLer is not funny anymore'.

I'm aware it isn't. That's not why I'm doing it.

[Raien]

I'm confused... MPS, what did you actually mean by your reply?

[Fyxe]

I'm aware it isn't. That's not why I'm doing it.

Becuz it sez 4EVER LOL.

Nope, not at all. XP

[Duke Serkol]

Yes, I'm still angry about that. It's not even like the only time we see the characters is when they have the Triforce, so it almost seems intentional. But if they wanted us to believe the Triforce went back to them, why couldn't they have had the Triforce pieces glow and disappear rather than fly away?

Them being Zelda and Ganondorf since Link doesn't get his mark back

[Showsni]

Nope, not at all. XP

He said not why I'm, not why I'm not.

[Fyxe]

He said not why I'm, not why I'm not.

My bad.

[The Missing Link]

MPS, however, needs to take a course in 'pretending to be a l337 speaking AOLer is not funny anymore'.

1337 can still be funny, but only under very specific circumstances. Like when used sarcastically to basically backhand-of-justice someone who doesn't present their point well at all for whatever reasons (bad spelling, bad grammar, general stupidity...) since writing out a full reply is just too much of a gift.

[FDL]

Them being Zelda and Ganondorf since Link doesn't get his mark back

Ironically, that's the opposite of OoT's ending. Link has the ToC visible while Zelda does not(though she must have hers if he has is).

[spunky-monkey]

And let's not forget that the Master Sword, like the Sages seal which the triforce could not breach, is empowered by the Sages' prayers to the Gods.

I'll quote the Master Sword's creation from the aLttP manual since no one has already put it up:

Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the
people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even
powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the
blade of evil's bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one
who was pure of heart and strong of body could weld it. As the Seven Wise
Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil
army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle.

Not sure if above translation was accurate, if it is, then this quote literally means that aLttP's prologue should happen *before* OoT in the timeline and not just a retelling of the 'Imprisoning War'. >.<

Eiji can attempt to reinvent the Master Sword's origins (and fail miserably) but I don't believe that is canonical, there is nothing to explain why the MS powered down other than a cheap plot device allowing Ganondorf's retreat for a later final-battle. Also how can the Gods grant the sword powers that can stop their own powers i.e. The Triforce? *Oh I hate tWW's storyline so much for all these dumb contradictions*

I always thought of the Mastersword as a failsafe. The Triforce grants god-like powers to whoever owns it regardless of whether they are good or evil. The Masterword is the only thing that can be used against the Triforce's powers and can only be weilded by a true hero.

Exactly, the people of Hyrule created something that could resist the power of the gods. If aLttP Link tried to fight Ganon without the MS he would have been instantly fried.

Edited by Ricky, 24 February 2007 - 11:00 AM.

[FDL]

I'll quote the Master Sword's creation from the aLttP manual since no one has already put it up:

Not sure if above translation was accurate, if it is, then this quote literally means that aLttP's prologue should happen *before* OoT in the timeline and not just a retelling of the 'Imprisoning War'. >.<

Actually, that's been proven to be grossly innacurate. In the JP backstory, it is said that the Master Sword was made many years before Ganondorf tried to take the Triforce, and it was designed to protect the Triforce, not repel it's magic.

Eiji can attempt to reinvent the Master Sword's origins (and fail miserably) but I don't believe that is canonical, there is nothing to explain why the MS powered down other than a cheap plot device allowing Ganondorf's retreat for a later final-battle. Also how can the Gods grant the sword powers that can stop their own powers i.e. The Triforce? *Oh I hate tWW's storyline so much for all these dumb contradictions*

I sort of agree, but the way I interpret it to make me feel better is that Molgera and Jalhalla are known as "Protectors of the Seal" because Ganon sealed away the MS's power, which is why the Sages now have to pray to maintain it.

[Hero of Legend]

Not sure if above translation was accurate, if it is, then this quote literally means that aLttP's prologue should happen *before* OoT in the timeline and not just a retelling of the 'Imprisoning War'. >.<

Which is just another example of how your beloved, Miyamoto-made OoT fucks up the timeline more than anything Aonuma has ever created. Of course, it really was our friends at NoA who did the fucking this time, but it’s not like you can blame Aonuma for that.

*Oh I hate tWW's storyline so much for all these dumb contradictions*

I think you should read up on the definition of 'contradiction', as well as have your memory checked, because there still hasn’t appeared any contradictions within TWW since the last time you tried to pull this stunt.

Exactly, the people of Hyrule created something that could resist the power of the gods.

On the orders of the gods, who blessed the sword with the power to repel evil, as said in ALttP.

[Showsni]

Not sure if above translation was accurate, if it is, then this quote literally means that aLttP's prologue should happen *before* OoT in the timeline and not just a retelling of the 'Imprisoning War'. >.<

Yes, based on the English canon the IW and OoT have to be seperate becasue of when the Master Sword was made. The Japanese is different, though.

[Raien]

Exactly, the people of Hyrule created something that could resist the power of the gods. If aLttP Link tried to fight Ganon without the MS he would have been instantly fried.

The Master Sword's own power to repel evil is "the gods' power", according to the King of Hyrule in TWW. Furthermore, it was forged by the Sages, according to Zelda in TP.

Thirdly, the Master Sword was made to fight evil if it tried to take the Triforce (or had already taken the Triforce), not to fight the Triforce itself. The Triforce itself cannot distinguish between good and evil, so Light is needed to fulfill that role.

[spunky-monkey]

Okay that changes everything so which one do we accept as the prologue, the American/European version, or the original Japanese one?

Which is just another example of how your beloved, Miyamoto-made OoT fucks up the timeline more than anything Aonuma has ever created. Of course, it really was our friends at NoA who did the fucking this time, but it's not like you can blame Aonuma for that.

I didn't say that one was Eiji's fault. Chronologically speaking our problem with aLttP/LA is they're completely separate from the rest of the games and Ocarina of Time was basically a spiritual remake of aLttP in 3-D. I have to admit everything was starting to fall apart from that point on because of the MS continuation; we've got this crazy pattern where every third Zelda title released does not want to mesh with the previous two.

I think you should read up on the definition of 'contradiction', as well as have your memory checked, because there still hasn’t appeared any contradictions within TWW since the last time you tried to pull this stunt.

Oops, I meant to fix that in my last edit but apparently it went awry. My criticism of TWW is that it tries to be the "direct follow-up to OoT" but fails with a rushed storyline and thanks to Eiji destroying Hyrule at the end there was now evidence of a split timeline at work, which at the time pissed me off.

On the orders of the gods, who blessed the sword with the power to repel evil, as said in ALttP.

Where does it say that?

Edited by Ricky, 24 February 2007 - 12:23 PM.

[Raien]

Where does it say that?

Japanese ALTTP BS, and TWW.

[spunky-monkey]

Japanese ALTTP BS, and TWW.

Not canonical then. Since aLttP I've always held the belief the ancient Hylians made the MS as a response to the Triforce of the gods because they can't judge between good and evil (made up of their very own essence). TWW merely adds to the confusion.

[The Missing Link]

Not canonical then. Since aLttP I've always held the belief the ancient Hylians made the MS as a response to the Triforce of the gods because they can't judge between good and evil (made up of their very own essence). TWW merely adds to the confusion.

Whether or not it's canonical depends upon what sources you believe Drumpf other sources for accuracy. Not everyone takes the LttP manual to be a greater source of canon than the Ocarina in-game backstory. (In fact, your view is a considerable minority view.) While I truthfully believe that the two are equal sources of canon with an equal number of errors in each (and weave a story through them using Least Squared Error), just because you don't believe X doesn't mean everyone else has to disbelieve it, too.

Edited by The Missing Link, 24 February 2007 - 02:32 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Okay that changes everything so which one do we accept as the prologue, the American/European version, or the original Japanese one?

The original, of course. I would have thought you, the self-proclaimed know-all who spouts the 'real' creator's original intention as canon would realize that.

Chronologically speaking our problem with aLttP/LA is they're completely separate from the rest of the games and Ocarina of Time was basically a spiritual remake of aLttP in 3-D. I have to admit everything was starting to fall apart from that point on because of the MS continuation; we've got this crazy pattern where every third Zelda title released does not want to mesh with the previous two.

Actually, no game has ever contradicted another on the subject of the Master Sword. In fact, the only games that mention its creation (TP and ALttP) have exactly the same origin for it.

Oops, I meant to fix that in my last edit but apparently it went awry. My criticism of TWW is that it tries to be the "direct follow-up to OoT" but fails with a rushed storyline and thanks to Eiji destroying Hyrule at the end there was now evidence of a split timeline at work, which at the time pissed me off.

Well, you have the right to be pissed, of course, but don't pretend it isn't your fault if you are too narrow-minded to appreciate new games. Nintendo doesn't force you to buy them, so really, you can lay off on this “I'm a victim” bullcrap.

Not canonical then. Since aLttP I've always held the belief the ancient Hylians made the MS as a response to the Triforce of the gods because they can't judge between good and evil (made up of their very own essence). TWW merely adds to the confusion.

Oh, sorry, did I say you went by what Miyamoto intended? I was wrong. It appears you delude yourself into thinking you decide what is canon. Here is a hint for you: You don't.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 February 2007 - 03:02 PM.

[FDL]

Oops, I meant to fix that in my last edit but apparently it went awry. My criticism of TWW is that it tries to be the "direct follow-up to OoT" but fails with a rushed storyline and thanks to Eiji destroying Hyrule at the end there was now evidence of a split timeline at work, which at the time pissed me off.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't really try to do that. There is the whole thing with the Flood in between and everything. Really, OoT is used as a framing point for TWW, not the backstory. Despite the fact that it doesn't have to be with a split, I have seen people fit ALttP in between the two.

[Raien]

Not canonical then. Since aLttP I've always held the belief the ancient Hylians made the MS as a response to the Triforce of the gods because they can't judge between good and evil (made up of their very own essence). TWW merely adds to the confusion.

The Master Sword was made as a failsafe, but not specifically against the power of the Triforce. It was made to fight the evil forces that try to / succeed in taking the Triforce.