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The Twili and the Oracles' Baddies


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#61 D~N

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 09:54 PM

Well here's the conondrum. When they show Link on his horse, they don't mention him leaving Hyrule, not even in the Hylian text. They show the Triforce beside him, but they do that in all the previous shots of Link too, so that proves nothing. They then talk about Ganon breaking his seal some time later, and when the people prayed to the gods, it said the Hero of Time did not appear because he had disappeared into the flow of time, one a direct result of the other and not just that he had simply disappeared into the flows of time and then left Hyrule. This comment is curious because it seems to suggest that had the hero not disappeared into the flows of time, then he could have saved them. But it would make sense if the seal is broken mere decades after OOT happened.

This is but one of the legends of which the
people speak...

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where
a golden power lay hidden.

It was a prosperous land blessed with green
forests, tall mountains, and peace.

But one day a man of great evil found the
golden power and took it for himself...

With its strength at his command, he
spread darkness across the kingdom.

But then, when all hope had died, and the
hour of doom seemed at hand...

...a young boy clothed in green appeared
as if from nowhere.

Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed
the dark one away and gave the land light.

This boy, who traveled through time to save
the land, was known as the Hero of Time.

The boy's tale was passed down through
generations until it became legend...


But then...a day came when a fell wind
began to blow across the kingdom.

The great evil that all thought had
been forever sealed away by the hero...

...once again crept forth from the depths of
the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

The people believed that the Hero of Time
would again come to save them.

...But the hero did not appear.

Faced by an onslaught of evil, the people
could do nothing but appeal to the gods.

In their last hour, as doom drew nigh, they
left their future in the hands of fate.

What became of that kingdom...?
None remain who know.

The memory of the kingdom vanished, but
its legend survived on the wind's breath.

On a certain island, it became customary to
garb boys in green when they came of age.

Clothed in the green of fields, they aspired
to find heroic blades and cast down evil.

The elders wished only for the youths to
know courage like the hero of legend...

bold added by me. Now, look carefully. It says he defeated ganon. Then I bolded the important part. His story is passed down through generations. That's important. WHen a story is passed down, this means Like from OoT can not be living anymore. Then the evil creeps fourth and the hero does not appear. Sequence of events tells us that Link from OoT sealed ganon, died, then his story was passed down, then the hero did not appear. Which means that the hero that did not appear is not the same as the one from OoT; it's impossible based on this text. When Link rides off into MM, it has nothing to do with the hero that didn't appear.

If I'm misinterpreting what you meant, tell me.

#62 Mgoblue201

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:14 PM

You had me until you were talking about the hero that did not appear. Well first, let me say that yes, I always believed that it happened generations after. because of what the text said. But a couple of days ago I found a link to the Zelda Box thing where the developer suggested that perhaps Hyrule's destruction happened while Link was in Termina. Of course I believe in the split timeline so I reject that conclusion, and I think it's impossible anyway, but it got me thinking about how far after OOT WW's backstory really happened. But I guess when I suggested mere decades, I forgot about that line. That's where I'm coming from.

But I don't understand what you're saying about the hero that did not appear. First off if a hero did not appear, then there was no hero, so what you're saying about what hero that was is irrelevant. Unless you meant something else. But it said they were waiting the Hero of Time. The king, the Deku Tree, and Jabun were all awaiting the Hero of Time. Even Ganon seemed to remember him fondly. Now why would they be expecting a hero that had walked the earth centuries ago? Maybe they thought he could travel through time. If he just disappeared into time, then this might make sense. But I'm digressing. I'm mostly wondering what you meant.

#63 Ogmios22188

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:15 PM

They DO intersect though. That's the point. Even if they are in different dimensions, they are locked together.

Termina isn't an alternate timeline to Hyrule though. The worlds are parallel to each other, but they haven't formed from the same source.
But that's the difference between a split timeline and a parallel world. For example...

---Hyrule---
---Termina---

Those are the two timelines for each world. Now, lets say Hyrule has a split...

-----------------Timeline split
---Hyrule ---<Original timeline
---Termina----------------------

Bad diagram, but I think it's clear what I mean. The second timeline branches off *completely seperately* from the original timeline *and* Termina. The second timeline may have it's own split timeline version of Termina, but you can't disengage a parallel world and connect it to a completely seperate timeline.
Of course it MAY be possible, if you could somehow bypass the whole system I just outlined, but that's so horribly convoluted, and dare I say, FANFICCY that it's just unreasonable.

But the histories don't intersect. I'll give an example of an intersection. Say, as part of his maniacal plans, Ganon wants to conquer all of existence everywhere. Using great power, he manages to combine Termina and Hyrule into one place, as to better conquer everything. Here, Hyruleans and Terminians would meet and bear witness to the same exact sequence of events. Their histories would combine. If you've ever read or are familiar with the DC Comics story Crisis on Infinite Earths, you'll know what I'm talking about. The presence of Link in Termina doesn't mean their histories intersect. Link's actions in Termina are affecting Termina and its history alone, and not Hyrule. That's why I say they are parallel dimensions with parallel timelines.

I didn't say that Termina is an alternate timeline, as I think that's obviously not the case. Now, even though you could say that, with a split, Hyrule would be broken up into the Original Timeline and the Alternate Timeline, alternate makes it sound like it's a possible sequence of events that never come to pass, and that it's not a "true" timeline. That's not what I think is the case. Eventually, the two timelines will continue into infinity, and run parallel to each other, even if they came from the same source. Now, you seem to be arguing that Termina's timeline would be somehow closer, as it were, to Hyrule's original timeline. But this notion of distance would be utterly meaningless when dealing with something such as time. All parallel timelines must eventually become equidistant from each other as they become their own distinct timelines, as becomes the case with the Original/Child and Alternate/Adult Timelines of Hyrule. As such, the Terminian timeline would be equidistant from both of them, and it would conceivably be possible for someone from Termina to get to either dimension, or any dimension for that matter, since they're all the same "distance" from each other.

Edited by Ogmios22188, 06 February 2007 - 10:19 PM.


#64 Ogmios22188

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:17 PM

You had me until you were talking about the hero that did not appear. Well first, let me say that yes, I always believed that it happened generations after. because of what the text said. But a couple of days ago I found a link to the Zelda Box thing where the developer suggested that perhaps Hyrule's destruction happened while Link was in Termina. Of course I believe in the split timeline so I reject that conclusion, and I think it's impossible anyway, but it got me thinking about how far after OOT WW's backstory really happened. But I guess when I suggested mere decades, I forgot about that line. That's where I'm coming from.

But I don't understand what you're saying about the hero that did not appear. First off if a hero did not appear, then there was no hero, so what you're saying about what hero that was is irrelevant. Unless you meant something else. But it said they were waiting the Hero of Time. The king, the Deku Tree, and Jabun were all awaiting the Hero of Time. Even Ganon seemed to remember him fondly. Now why would they be expecting a hero that had walked the earth centuries ago? Maybe they thought he could travel through time. If he just disappeared into time, then this might make sense. But I'm digressing. I'm mostly wondering what you meant.

I'm pretty sure that the Hylian text has been translated into Japanese and then English and it says that Link was lost to the flows of time, or something to that effect. That seems to indicate the Hero of Time going back in time at the end of Ocarina of Time. There's an article on the main site that talks about it.

#65 D~N

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:37 PM

But I don't understand what you're saying about the hero that did not appear. First off if a hero did not appear, then there was no hero, so what you're saying about what hero that was is irrelevant. Unless you meant something else. But it said they were waiting the Hero of Time. The king, the Deku Tree, and Jabun were all awaiting the Hero of Time. Even Ganon seemed to remember him fondly. Now why would they be expecting a hero that had walked the earth centuries ago? Maybe they thought he could travel through time. If he just disappeared into time, then this might make sense. But I'm digressing. I'm mostly wondering what you meant.


See, that's all fine and good, but you're ruling out the possibility that there actually could have been a hero, but he just didn't feel like showing up or something. i.e.; He's in Termina, he doesn't have the (triforce of) courage, etc. I don't think a generation would pass where a Link just isn't born or something. No, rather, I think that Link just failed, or like they say in the text, didn't appear. What you're saying is pretty much what I'm saying, only with a different view on it; you think there was no Link at all, I think there was, and he just had some trouble on the way...Soooo...we agree?....yes?

To answer your question specifically, I wanted to rule out the possibility that TWW backstory happens in the next decade or so, that's all. I'm not sure if it came off that way, but it's what I meant. I was atempting to totally negate the possiblity that this missing hero is the HoT, because that'd be only possible through more time travel. That's my main arguement here. And it's hard to make an arguement when I have horrible grammar. :deadlink:

I think they could be waiting for the *same* hero of time ONLY if he travels through time.

Yes, since we both believe in a split, there's no way the destruction could have happened while he was in Termina anyway, like you said. It would have to be, like the text says, hundreds of generations after, when a Link fails/isn't born, and Ganon does evil stuff.

#66 Mgoblue201

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:59 PM

Well, yes, in essence, it's all the same, what we're proposing, although I think strictly a hero was not born. They were praying that the Hero of Time would show up, which probably means that a new hero did not appear at all. But it doesn't really matter. The game makes sense either way. The point is, Ganon escaped, and nothing was able to stop him, thus the gods flooded Hyrule.

I'm pretty sure that the Hylian text has been translated into Japanese and then English and it says that Link was lost to the flows of time, or something to that effect. That seems to indicate the Hero of Time going back in time at the end of Ocarina of Time. There's an article on the main site that talks about it.

Yes, I made a big post about it on the previous page.

#67 Fyxe

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:31 AM

But my point about Ganon/Ganondorf is that you seemed to infer that Ganon was a separate 'beast' from Veran simply because of the name.

I wasn't. I can't help it if you misread my meaning. I was using the names to make my point clearer. Please don't make me repeat this again, I've said it enough.

Assuming Veran was a monster first is more or less trying to push what we know about Onox on Veran.

Um... Yes, and? It's the implication. Why assume she's more like Ganon when it's far more likely that she's like Onox?

I would assume her human form is her real form, since she's never all "ZOMG! Now you shall see my TRUE FORM!"

Well, it's a bad assumption to make, we know they're both from the Dark World, we know their background is pretty much identical, so we can assume that her true form is monster first, human second, just like Onox. She doesn't say anything about true form because it might be a little odd for her to repeat exactly what Onox said.

But the histories don't intersect. I'll give an example of an intersection. Say, as part of his maniacal plans, Ganon wants to conquer all of existence everywhere. Using great power, he manages to combine Termina and Hyrule into one place, as to better conquer everything. Here, Hyruleans and Terminians would meet and bear witness to the same exact sequence of events. Their histories would combine.

Their histories DO intersect and combine. Every single time Link or Skull Kid travels to and from Termina (we know Skull Kid has gone back and forth a few times at least, and Link ends up back in Hyrule at the end) it's going to affect the timeline of both worlds at the exact same time. If their histories were not connected, absolute *chaos* would occur every time someone traveled from one world to the other.


The presence of Link in Termina doesn't mean their histories intersect. Link's actions in Termina are affecting Termina and its history alone, and not Hyrule. That's why I say they are parallel dimensions with parallel timelines.

They are affecting Hyrule's history. Link's very absence in Hyrule affects it's history.

I didn't say that Termina is an alternate timeline, as I think that's obviously not the case. Now, even though you could say that, with a split, Hyrule would be broken up into the Original Timeline and the Alternate Timeline, alternate makes it sound like it's a possible sequence of events that never come to pass, and that it's not a "true" timeline. That's not what I think is the case. Eventually, the two timelines will continue into infinity, and run parallel to each other, even if they came from the same source. Now, you seem to be arguing that Termina's timeline would be somehow closer, as it were, to Hyrule's original timeline.

I am not arguing that. I am arguing that Termina is connected to one timeline - the split would have to take a split version of Termina with it, because the split is going somewhere completely different. It's not a parallel split. A split timeline has NO connection to the history of the original timeline, not since the split. No direct link. However, Termina NEEDS a direct, parallel link to Hyrule. A copy of Termina would have to be attached to both the original timeline and the split timeline.

If Termina was linked to both the adult timeline and the child timeline, one could argue that traveling to and from Termina to Hyrule could send you *anywhere* in reality, but this is plainly not the case. If it was connected to both timelines, it would cause absolute chaos, because you cannot bridge the gap between one timeline and another, else the split is meaningless.

But this notion of distance would be utterly meaningless when dealing with something such as time. All parallel timelines must eventually become equidistant from each other as they become their own distinct timelines, as becomes the case with the Original/Child and Alternate/Adult Timelines of Hyrule. As such, the Terminian timeline would be equidistant from both of them, and it would conceivably be possible for someone from Termina to get to either dimension, or any dimension for that matter, since they're all the same "distance" from each other.

I am not talking about distance. I am talking about direction. A split timeline is NOT parallel to the original timeline - it shares no connection whatsoever since the split. If it did, then the split would be pointless, and it wouldn't be an alternate timeline, it would just be another parallel world.

Termina would not be able to be both parallel to one world and somehow connect to a non-parallel world.

#68 Masamune

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:13 AM

Well, it's a bad assumption to make, we know they're both from the Dark World, we know their background is pretty much identical, so we can assume that her true form is monster first, human second, just like Onox. She doesn't say anything about true form because it might be a little odd for her to repeat exactly what Onox said.


It's an assumption either way you look at it. But it's worth noting that if we're talking about the Dark World (which may or may not be the one in ALttP, but damn how many other realms are there anyways?) then it's not a given that all beings there are naturally monsters. If I say my friend from Florida is a woman, does that automatically imply that all people from Florida are therefor women? Someone who doesn't know anything about Florida could make that assumption based on this limited information... but it would be a really stupid assumption.

Anyways, I'm not saying you're wrong, per se. She certainly could be a monster naturally. I just fancy the whole Veran = Twili thing, even if I know it's not supported by canon and never will be. It's a neat idea I don't want to immediately dismiss because Onox is a dragon, so therefor Veran must be a monster too.

#69 coinilius

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 06:46 PM

Veran actually describes one of her forms as her 'true form' - it's her vampire/fairy form, if I remember correctly.

#70 Masamune

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:33 PM

Veran actually describes one of her forms as her 'true form' - it's her vampire/fairy form, if I remember correctly.


Really? Well them's the breaks then. I should go find a sprite sheet and see what that form looks like.

#71 joeymartin64

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 12:44 AM

She doesn't. Look at the quote FAQs. Onox mentions a "true form" while Veran just mentions other forms.

...Oh, wait, she does say "true form."

"You've seen me like this before, but this is my true form. You'll
regret making me show my true might!"

That's... not before the final battle, though. This one is:

How cold of you to run off and leave me all alone! But, my, aren't you
courageous! You've spoiled all my plans! I hoped to avoid revealing
this vile shape... You'll pay for my humiliation with your life! Now,
Link, it is your turn to taste despair... and the fear of death!


Hm. Can't say I remember what the second phase was like, though. Anyone?

Edited by joeymartin64, 08 February 2007 - 12:48 AM.


#72 coinilius

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 12:57 AM

She doesn't. Look at the quote FAQs. Onox mentions a "true form" while Veran just mentions other forms.

...Oh, wait, she does say "true form."

That's... not before the final battle, though. This one is:
Hm. Can't say I remember what the second phase was like, though. Anyone?



The one which she calls her 'true form' is the second phase, the fairy/vampire thing. The 'vile shape[s]' are the final forms she assumes, which are the bee, spider and turtle forms. No one said anything about the 'true form' line being said as the lead in to the final battle.

This is what the form in question looks like:

Posted Image

Edited by coinilius, 08 February 2007 - 12:58 AM.


#73 joeymartin64

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:05 AM

Right. I was just looking through the quote FAQs in case I missed something about a true form, and... I did. I was initially only looking before the final battle, where that stuff usually happens. Joke was me.

The "you've seen me like this before" part is throwing me off. As far as I can remember, the fairy vampire was never seen before then. I think she may have been referring to the spirit form, but that would be clumsy. As in "you've seen me like THIS before," about the spirit, "but THIS is my true form," about the fairy vamp. Or something. I can't find a description of the scene anywhere either. Is she IN that form when she says it or does she transform afterward?

Yeah, my Oracle memory is more than a bit hazy.

#74 coinilius

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:29 AM

The "you've seen me like this before" part is throwing me off. As far as I can remember, the fairy vampire was never seen before then. I think she may have been referring to the spirit form, but that would be clumsy. As in "you've seen me like THIS before," about the spirit, "but THIS is my true form," about the fairy vamp. Or something. I can't find a description of the scene anywhere either. Is she IN that form when she says it or does she transform afterward?


Unfortunately, I can't remember either (if she's in that form already or not when she says that line) :P I think she is, though, because I can remember thinking there was something off about that line (since you'd never seen that form before), and that it might have been a typo... (and it wouldn't be the only one in the Oracles).

#75 Fyxe

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 12:44 PM

Guys, remember, first you fight Veran as she's possessing Nayru. Once you beat her, she appears as a human. This is when she says 'you've seen me like this before'. But you don't fight her like this. She then changes into her true form, the giant insect fairy thing. With Dark Link's appearing. Then she goes all shapeshifty after that (and it's not a 'turtle form', yeesk, a turtle isn't a bug, nor does it look anything like that).

#76 Arturo

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:59 PM

Except for that it is Ambi, not Nayru, whom you fight. You fight Nayrue before, I think it was after the 6th Dungeon....

#77 Ogmios22188

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:05 PM

Their histories DO intersect and combine. Every single time Link or Skull Kid travels to and from Termina (we know Skull Kid has gone back and forth a few times at least, and Link ends up back in Hyrule at the end) it's going to affect the timeline of both worlds at the exact same time. If their histories were not connected, absolute *chaos* would occur every time someone traveled from one world to the other.

Okay, what they do in Termina affects Termina and what they do in Hyrule affects Hyrule. Link helping Anju and Kafei in Termina has absolutely no affect on Hyrule's history. Only what they do in one place affects that place, not the other. And your claim that chaos would occur is absolutely unsubstantiated.

They are affecting Hyrule's history. Link's very absence in Hyrule affects it's history.

Yes, Link's absence from Hyrule affects Hyrule's history, but does his presence in Termina affect Hyrule's history? No.

I am not arguing that. I am arguing that Termina is connected to one timeline - the split would have to take a split version of Termina with it, because the split is going somewhere completely different. It's not a parallel split. A split timeline has NO connection to the history of the original timeline, not since the split. No direct link. However, Termina NEEDS a direct, parallel link to Hyrule. A copy of Termina would have to be attached to both the original timeline and the split timeline.

That's not true. That's why I said that Tingle or whoever else probably found another way out of Termina, not through the Clock Tower. The Clock Tower seems without a doubt to lead to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline, but somewhere else could take you somewhere else, see what I'm saying? And all of the histories are running parallel to each other. Hyrule's history would have a similar point of origin, but from there they would be parallel. And all of the dimensions would share a common origin in the very beginning; the creation of existence. From there, things would diverge. But all of reality was created by something, and likely the same thing. They'd all have that in common.

If Termina was linked to both the adult timeline and the child timeline, one could argue that traveling to and from Termina to Hyrule could send you *anywhere* in reality, but this is plainly not the case. If it was connected to both timelines, it would cause absolute chaos, because you cannot bridge the gap between one timeline and another, else the split is meaningless.

See, that's why I said there would have to be another way out of Termina. As far as we can see, the Clock Tower only leads to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline, and vice versa. There must be some place else that could lead to the Adult Timeline.

I am not talking about distance. I am talking about direction. A split timeline is NOT parallel to the original timeline - it shares no connection whatsoever since the split. If it did, then the split would be pointless, and it wouldn't be an alternate timeline, it would just be another parallel world.

Direction is meaningless in space, as well. There is no quantification or qualification, except for light-years. But since these are gaps between dimensions, it's likely light doesn't even reach there. So, no measurement of distance is possible. And I fail to see your reasoning that the adult timeline wouldn't be parallel to the child timeline. Of course it would be. They share a common origin, and then their paths diverge, like a fork in the road. Aren't the right and left forks parallel to each other? It's the same principle. And I find it funny that you'd say that timelines that share a common history to some degree wouldn't be parallel, while the Child Timeline of Hyrule and the timeline of Termina would be parallel when, except for a common history of being created by something, likely a master god or goddess, they share absolutely no common history. It doesn't make any sense.

Termina would not be able to be both parallel to one world and somehow connect to a non-parallel world.

As I said above, they are all parallel, since there is no distance or direction in space. It would theoretically be possible to get anywhere, albeit through different wormholes. The Clock Tower leads to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline. Some place else must lead to the Adult Timeline.

#78 coinilius

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 09:37 PM

Fyxe - have you replayed the fight with Veran just recently to check that? I'm just wondering, because you now seem very confident about when she says which line and when she transforms, while before you didn't remember her saying anything about true forms. So she definately says the 'you've seen me in this form' bit while in human form, then transforms and says the true form bit?

And it's Ambi, but Nayru. Yeesk, Nayru doesn't look anything like that ;)

EDIT: I see Arturo mentioned the Ambi thing as well...

Edited by coinilius, 08 February 2007 - 09:39 PM.


#79 Mgoblue201

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:17 PM

I have no point to prove, and I'm only posting because I saw this argument and thought I could clarify. She does indeed say "true form" while as a "human". Now this alone might not be much since she could be talking about the form she's about to show, but I don't think that's the case. Remember, Link had rarely seen her like that the entire game. She mostly took the forms of other people and presented that to Link. So indeed she would speak truly if Link only saw her like that once (I don't remember if he did though or where in the game it would be). She speaks of her true might as if her upcoming form might be her true one, but I think she mostly means that her power has been somewhat checked up to that point, and now that she has assumed her own form, she can properly demonstrate her power, even if she has to transform to do it. The fact that she almost never shows herself as...well, herself...is absolutely paramount to this point.

#80 Fyxe

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 02:37 PM

Okay, what they do in Termina affects Termina and what they do in Hyrule affects Hyrule. Link helping Anju and Kafei in Termina has absolutely no affect on Hyrule's history. Only what they do in one place affects that place, not the other. And your claim that chaos would occur is absolutely unsubstantiated.

Um, have you any idea how time works? If something can travel from one place to another at will, time is affected. If Skull Kid is travelling back and forth, both Termina and Hyrule's histories are changed.

Yes, Link's absence from Hyrule affects Hyrule's history, but does his presence in Termina affect Hyrule's history? No.

Uh, those are two same things. Link's absense from Hyrule is the same as his presense in Termina. Therefore his presence in Termina DOES affect Hyrule's history because, logically, it means he's otherwise absent from Hyrule when he otherwise would not be.

That's not true. That's why I said that Tingle or whoever else probably found another way out of Termina, not through the Clock Tower. The Clock Tower seems without a doubt to lead to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline, but somewhere else could take you somewhere else, see what I'm saying?

Except that that, unfortunately, is fanfic. As far as we know, there's one way in, and one way out. Skull Kid travels to and from both worlds with no indication that he is travelling across timelines.

And all of the histories are running parallel to each other. Hyrule's history would have a similar point of origin, but from there they would be parallel.

No they wouldn't. Parallel means they need a constant connection. Once a split occurs, there is no connection from then onward.

And all of the dimensions would share a common origin in the very beginning; the creation of existence. From there, things would diverge. But all of reality was created by something, and likely the same thing. They'd all have that in common.

Aaaand? So? A timeline isn't the same thing as an alternate world. It's an alternate timeline, not an alternate planet.

See, that's why I said there would have to be another way out of Termina. As far as we can see, the Clock Tower only leads to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline, and vice versa. There must be some place else that could lead to the Adult Timeline.

Um, no, there must not be, firstly because that's impossible, and secondly you only want there to be a way there so it fits your theory.

Direction is meaningless in space, as well.

I think you'll find it isn't. You can't get to Mars just by going in any direction. But that's beside the main point.

There is no quantification or qualification, except for light-years.

Um, that's just not true.

But since these are gaps between dimensions, it's likely light doesn't even reach there. So, no measurement of distance is possible.

I was using direction as a metaphor, anyway, a way of explaining it. It doesn't mean it goes in a literal direction.

And I fail to see your reasoning that the adult timeline wouldn't be parallel to the child timeline. Of course it would be. They share a common origin, and then their paths diverge, like a fork in the road. Aren't the right and left forks parallel to each other?

No, often forks go off in completely different directions. This isn't a dual carriageway. The point is, once a split occurs, there is no way to connect the two timelines together again. They are not linked. There is no weird portal that could take you from one to the other. It's completely different from a parallel world.

And I find it funny that you'd say that timelines that share a common history to some degree wouldn't be parallel,

There's no such thing as a 'parallel timeline'. One change in the past sends history off in a completely different direction. Like I said, there's no tie. There's no portal. There's no rope holding the realities together. Parallel worlds, meanwhile, *need* a link. Take the Twilight Realm - does anyone think that travelling to and from the Twilight Realm will send you into a completely different timeline? No, of course not. Why should it?

As I said above, they are all parallel, since there is no distance or direction in space. It would theoretically be possible to get anywhere, albeit through different wormholes. The Clock Tower leads to the Lost Woods of the Child Timeline. Some place else must lead to the Adult Timeline.

You're assuming that there is more than one portal. Why? Why would there be more than one? Also, it's not a wormhole. A wormhole is something very different. You couldn't ever fall through a wormhole. And as far as I remember, a wormhole would not take you to another reality.

Fyxe - have you replayed the fight with Veran just recently to check that? I'm just wondering, because you now seem very confident about when she says which line and when she transforms, while before you didn't remember her saying anything about true forms. So she definately says the 'you've seen me in this form' bit while in human form, then transforms and says the true form bit?

And it's Ambi, but Nayru. Yeesk, Nayru doesn't look anything like that ;)

EDIT: I see Arturo mentioned the Ambi thing as well...

Firstly, yes, I forgot which order you fight Nayru or Ambi. Sue me.

Secondly, the dialogue reminded me how the fight went. You fight Veran in Ambi. You beat her. She appears in human form. She says 'you've seen me like this before' and then states she will now show her true form. She changes into the fairy monster. Beat that, then she states the line about her hideous form. I'm 99% certain that is how the fight went.

I have no point to prove, and I'm only posting because I saw this argument and thought I could clarify. She does indeed say "true form" while as a "human". Now this alone might not be much since she could be talking about the form she's about to show, but I don't think that's the case. Remember, Link had rarely seen her like that the entire game. She mostly took the forms of other people and presented that to Link. So indeed she would speak truly if Link only saw her like that once (I don't remember if he did though or where in the game it would be). She speaks of her true might as if her upcoming form might be her true one, but I think she mostly means that her power has been somewhat checked up to that point, and now that she has assumed her own form, she can properly demonstrate her power, even if she has to transform to do it. The fact that she almost never shows herself as...well, herself...is absolutely paramount to this point.

No offense, but what are you babbling about?

It's fairly simple. You beat Veran when she's a shadow possessing Ambi. Then she appears as a human. She states 'you've seen me like this before', which is true, we have seen her as a human before. Then she states 'but this is my true form'. Then she changes. Therefore, her true form is the insect fairy thing. The word 'but' is very significant. If she had meant her human form was the true form, she would not have said 'but'.

#81 Masamune

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 07:50 AM

It's worth pointing out there wouldn't be an Adult Timeline version of Termina, on the simple basis that Link would have never showed up and Skull Kid would have destroyed the planet.

Tragic, innit?

#82 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:49 PM

^ Which is exactly why most people believe there's only one Termina post-Split.

#83 FDL

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:54 PM

It's worth pointing out there wouldn't be an Adult Timeline version of Termina, on the simple basis that Link would have never showed up and Skull Kid would have destroyed the planet.

Tragic, innit?


But we see Skull Kid in the Lost Woods when you're an adult, and he has no Majora's Mask.

#84 Mad Scrub

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:54 PM

Does he even have the Skull Mask? It might be different Skull Kid altogether.

#85 FDL

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:59 PM

I believe so. He's even in the same place.

#86 coinilius

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 01:18 AM

Firstly, yes, I forgot which order you fight Nayru or Ambi. Sue me.


I just found it funny after you commented on me calling the bug-form a turtle, that you called Ambi Nayru :P

#87 Masamune

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 01:30 AM

But we see Skull Kid in the Lost Woods when you're an adult, and he has no Majora's Mask.


... wouldn't that effectively be evidence against Split Timeline, though?

#88 Evilsbane

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:44 AM

... wouldn't that effectively be evidence against Split Timeline, though?

Cleopatra's Nose, people. Going back in time and changing things means LOTS of things could turn out differently: even things you would think would be affected. Just because something happens in the CT (Skull Kid getting MM), it does not mean that it would happen the same way in the AT because in the CT, Ganondorf never took over, which affected EVERYTHING.

#89 Fyxe

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:54 AM

I just found it funny after you commented on me calling the bug-form a turtle, that you called Ambi Nayru :P

I didn't call Ambi Naryu, I got the order you fight them mixed up. That's NOT a stupid mistake. Stop being bloody childish.

And guys, THERE IS MORE THAN ONE SKULL KID. And if you give the main one a Skull Mask, they all wear one.

Edited by Fyxe, 11 February 2007 - 09:55 AM.


#90 Evilsbane

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:56 AM

I didn't call Ambi Naryu, I got the order you fight them mixed up. That's NOT a stupid mistake. Stop being bloody childish.

And guys, THERE IS MORE THAN ONE SKULL KID.

Yes, but the one in MM knows Link already. And if it's such a childish thing, then don't pay any attention. Belligerence only earns you further teasing; believe me, I know.




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