113 replies to this topic

[Crazy Penguin]

Did the Japanese wiki cite a source?

[FDL]

I would take these translations a little lightly, as they seem to have been done with an online translator.

Yeah, but what I mean is that in Japan that they believe in a split timeline and it's not just something American fans focus on.

[Fyxe]

Technically, that doesn't imply a split timeline. It implies a gaiden timeline.

[coinilius]

I would indeed take those translations lightly - I did them with a combination of on-line translators and hunting through reference books to try and balance out some of the really bad translations That 'split-timeline' one though I just posted the on-line translator version 'cause I was feeling lazy and it wasn't really relevant to what we were discussing anyway The article had a citation (that's what that [1] at the end was, it seemed to be refering to a magazine article or something, if I remember correctly.

Also, like it's been said already, it's a wikipedia article, so it should pretty much be taken with a grain of salt automatically, but I thought it was interesting to see that the split-time/parrellel timeline idea is indeed around and kicking in Japan.

[FDL]

Technically, that doesn't imply a split timeline. It implies a gaiden timeline.

Well, the "adult timeline" is sort of a gaiden timeline in a way. The true ending of OoT is Link going back to being a child while the common theory about the TWW timeline is that it omits this.

[Fyxe]

TWW has references to Majora's Mask, however. Link leaving Hyrule on Epona on his own mission, the way it's depicted and described appears to closely resemble the opening to MM. Also, there's the infamous 'Legend of the Fairy'.

People seem to have also forgotten the possiblity that *was* no split, and that both the child and adult events happen on the same timeline. This would lead to a *true* gaiden timeline, where TWW would follow OoT and so would TP, but neither would affect the other.

[Ogmios22188]

TWW has references to Majora's Mask, however. Link leaving Hyrule on Epona on his own mission, the way it's depicted and described appears to closely resemble the opening to MM. Also, there's the infamous 'Legend of the Fairy'.

People seem to have also forgotten the possiblity that *was* no split, and that both the child and adult events happen on the same timeline. This would lead to a *true* gaiden timeline, where TWW would follow OoT and so would TP, but neither would affect the other.

There's an article on the Zelda Legends site that addresses the Majora's Mask references pretty well, I think. Such as, even though Link's seen riding Epona, the Hylian text, when translated, says that Link went into the flows of time.

[Fyxe]

That doesn't mean anything, Ogmios. In fact, if anything, it's more support for no split. Why? Because the people of Hyrule would of witnessed Link leaving by horse (Young Link) and also disappearing into the flows of time (after defeating Ganon).

Why depict him leaving by horse if he vanished into the flows of time? Obviously it's just a depiction, but it appears to be a visual reference to Majora's Mask.

[SOAP]

I never noticed that before but looking at Zant and Midna I always had the feeling I've seen simmilar looking people before but could never put my finger on it.

Also, about this underworld stuff, in TP, I believe the Twilight Realm is referred to as Underworld, albeit indirectly. Someone, I forget who, describes the Twilight Mirror as a means to send executed prisoners straight to the Underworld.

[Vertiboy]

TWW has references to Majora's Mask, however. Link leaving Hyrule on Epona on his own mission, the way it's depicted and described appears to closely resemble the opening to MM. Also, there's the infamous 'Legend of the Fairy'.

People seem to have also forgotten the possiblity that *was* no split, and that both the child and adult events happen on the same timeline. This would lead to a *true* gaiden timeline, where TWW would follow OoT and so would TP, but neither would affect the other.

In the Japanese legend of the Hero of Time from The Wind Waker, it says that the Hero of Time disappeared into the flows of time, never to be seen again. This fits with the adult ending.

We have two contradicting sources. One is right and one is wrong, unless the adult events happen 7 years later, which, as I have pointed out in this thread, would involve many plotholes.

Here is how I determine which legend, the Hero of Time legend or the Legend of the Fairy, is true. The HoT legend is a part of the main story. There is no way to play the game without seeing it (unless you are 73h h@x0r). The LotF, however, is optional. You can complete the game without seeing it.

If you ask me, the legend that is a part of the main story is more true. I like to follow the rule that if something is in the game, it is canon, but I don't think that rule can always apply.

On a side note, I am a little behind, but I found out that there is no plural in Japanese (some people will sarcastically think "OMFG RAELLY?!?!?!"). That means that Aonuma could have meant that TWW takes place hundreds of years after OoT's adult ending, matching what the in-game evidence says.

[Jumbie]

As for Gaiden timeline, due to TP I'm also playing with the thought of making TWW a 'what if' of the adult timeline. That is, I'm keeping my split timeline of course, but since TP obviously takes the place in the child timeline that previously ALttP had, ALttP has to move after OoT's adult ending, which means that TWW has to move to a second adult timeline. Call it 'what if', although I'm not one to decide if either ALttP's or TWW's adult line is the predominant one in the Zelda universe.

Yeah, but what I mean is that in Japan that they believe in a split timeline and it's not just something American fans focus on.

That has always been apparent. I mean, the split timeline's greatest supports are Aonuma and Miyamoto, don't forget

Here is how I determine which legend, the Hero of Time legend or the Legend of the Fairy, is true. The HoT legend is a part of the main story. There is no way to play the game without seeing it (unless you are 73h h@x0r). The LotF, however, is optional. You can complete the game without seeing it.

If you ask me, the legend that is a part of the main story is more true. I like to follow the rule that if something is in the game, it is canon, but I don't think that rule can always apply.

There's actually no need at all to think of the Legend of the Fairy as uncanonic, even going with a timeline where MM doesn't occur before TWW. In the article on ZL which Ogmios mentioned, we explained how this is possible, but here a little summary:
When Tingle went from Termina to Hyrule, he simply didn't end up in the child timeline where Young Link went to, but he ended up in TWW's adult timeline instead. This works because Hyrule has two timelines and Termina only one. And before someone says, "Prove that Termina has only one!", I'll say, no I won't prove it, because this theory can make the LotF canon under this one little assumption.

Edited by Jumbie, 05 February 2007 - 07:56 PM.

[FDL]

That doesn't mean anything, Ogmios. In fact, if anything, it's more support for no split. Why? Because the people of Hyrule would of witnessed Link leaving by horse (Young Link) and also disappearing into the flows of time (after defeating Ganon).

Why depict him leaving by horse if he vanished into the flows of time? Obviously it's just a depiction, but it appears to be a visual reference to Majora's Mask.

Of course it's possible, I'd rather there was no split. But TP and TWW make it likely that if not a split timeline, there are at least two alternate timelines. Hell, I've jokingly said this before, but OoT:MQ and OoT could be counted as two games in alternate timelines. Same story, different timelines. One ends in MM-TP, one ends in TWW. I don't really think so, but it's not completely perposterous.

[Ogmios22188]

That doesn't mean anything, Ogmios. In fact, if anything, it's more support for no split. Why? Because the people of Hyrule would of witnessed Link leaving by horse (Young Link) and also disappearing into the flows of time (after defeating Ganon).

Why depict him leaving by horse if he vanished into the flows of time? Obviously it's just a depiction, but it appears to be a visual reference to Majora's Mask.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Link wasn't so much "seen" as he was depicted in the picture, while the actual text says he went into the flows of time. Also, since Termina is a parallel dimension, with its own universe and timeline, people from that world could conceivably go to either the Child Timeline Hyrule or the Adult Timeline Hyrule, since they're both separate dimensions from each other and from Termina. So, even though Link from the Child Timeline went to Termina, Tingle could conceivably leave Termina and end up in the Adult Timeline in Hyrule.

[Duke Serkol]

since Termina is a parallel dimension, with its own universe and timeline, people from that world could conceivably go to either the Child Timeline Hyrule or the Adult Timeline Hyrule, since they're both separate dimensions from each other and from Termina. So, even though Link from the Child Timeline went to Termina, Tingle could conceivably leave Termina and end up in the Adult Timeline in Hyrule.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

[Fyxe]

When Tingle went from Termina to Hyrule, he simply didn't end up in the child timeline where Young Link went to, but he ended up in TWW's adult timeline instead. This works because Hyrule has two timelines and Termina only one. And before someone says, "Prove that Termina has only one!", I'll say, no I won't prove it, because this theory can make the LotF canon under this one little assumption.

It's a big assumption. It's a big, FUCKING CROWBAR of an assumption, designed ONLY to make timelines work. It's the same sort of lame, desperate trick that single Link theorists used to use back in the day.

If that sounds rude, it's meant to be. Don't pull that kind of nonsense.

Also, since Termina is a parallel dimension, with its own universe and timeline, people from that world could conceivably go to either the Child Timeline Hyrule or the Adult Timeline Hyrule, since they're both separate dimensions from each other and from Termina.

Utter madness. Clearly Termina has *no* relation to a split timeline. It's an entirely different parallel dimension, which is NOT the same as an alternate timeline, not by a long shot.

It makes absolutely zero, zero zero million times over zero sense that you could enter Termina from one timeline and return into another timeline. That's just utter rubbish. If that hugely contrived randomness could actually happen, then you could end up *anywhere*.

I don't mean any offense to you guys, but for goddess' sake. You are talking out of your behinds.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 February 2007 - 12:55 PM.

[Masamune]

The difference is that Ganondorf changes into essentially a completely different being, Ganon, the beast. This is the true form of Ganon (once Ganondorf was corrupted by the Triforce of Power, presumably) but it is not Ganondorf's true form. Ganondorf's true form is a human, always has been.

OBJECTION!

The Ganon/Ganondorf difference is negligible at best. Ganon and Ganondorf are often used interchangeably in the series and not used to refer to a specific form. Case in point, The Wind Waker.

And Ganondorf's true form hasn't ALWAYS been human. I heard they made games before Ocarina of Time.

[FDL]

Yeah, the idea that Ganon is deifferent than Ganon is crap. TWW refers to him as Ganon and Ganondorf interchangeably and even Zant calls him Ganon in TP. It's the same thing.

[Ogmios22188]

It's a big assumption. It's a big, FUCKING CROWBAR of an assumption, designed ONLY to make timelines work. It's the same sort of lame, desperate trick that single Link theorists used to use back in the day.

If that sounds rude, it's meant to be. Don't pull that kind of nonsense.
Utter madness. Clearly Termina has *no* relation to a split timeline. It's an entirely different parallel dimension, which is NOT the same as an alternate timeline, not by a long shot.

It makes absolutely zero, zero zero million times over zero sense that you could enter Termina from one timeline and return into another timeline. That's just utter rubbish. If that hugely contrived randomness could actually happen, then you could end up *anywhere*.

I don't mean any offense to you guys, but for goddess' sake. You are talking out of your behinds.

Okay, let's look at this way then. Let's think of actual parallel universes, if there are any. What you're saying is that since one couldn't go from the Child Timeline to Termina to the Adult Timeline, that Termina and Hyrule exist on the same timeline. But how could this be? They're entirely different dimensions with no effect on each other at all. Do you believe that a universe parallel to ours would share a timeline with us? If one's going through time and space, it stands to reason that there could be literally an infinite amount of places to end up. Why is it so crazy to think that if someone from Child Timeline Hyrule went to Termina, a Terminian couldn't end up in Adult Timeline Hyrule? They're completely separate dimensions.

[Hero of Legend]

And Ganondorf's true form hasn't ALWAYS been human. I heard they made games before Ocarina of Time.

He wasn't "Ganondorf" back then. That part of his character was first introduced with ALttP, and Ganondorf has been his true name since.

And that he is commonly known as Ganon really has nothing to do with what Fyxe said.

Yeah, the idea that Ganon is deifferent than Ganon is crap. TWW refers to him as Ganon and Ganondorf interchangeably and even Zant calls him Ganon in TP. It's the same thing.

Tell that to the boss intros.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 February 2007 - 03:55 PM.

[FDL]

And yet, we have KoRL and the guardian spirits calling him Ganon far more times than they call him Ganondorf. Plus, we have Zant call him Ganon. In both cases we hadn't seen him transform into a pig yet.

[Fyxe]

OBJECTION!

The Ganon/Ganondorf difference is negligible at best. Ganon and Ganondorf are often used interchangeably in the series and not used to refer to a specific form. Case in point, The Wind Waker.

Hello. I was using the name just to make my point more obvious. Ganon or Ganondorf, everyone KNOWS Ganon has two specific forms.

And Ganondorf's true form hasn't ALWAYS been human. I heard they made games before Ocarina of Time.

Oh ho! Don't talk to me as if I got into the series at OoT. That's a joke. The POINT is that Ganondorf was, has, and always will be originally born as a human. He had no backstory until ALttP, and when they gave the backstory, they made him a human before he became a monster.

OoT is the game that shows us the first transformation into Ganon.

Yeah, the idea that Ganon is deifferent than Ganon is crap. TWW refers to him as Ganon and Ganondorf interchangeably and even Zant calls him Ganon in TP. It's the same thing.

Call me crazy, but a human is a bit different from a monster pig beast. Of course they're the same character, but they're NOT the same physical being.

Okay, let's look at this way then. Let's think of actual parallel universes, if there are any. What you're saying is that since one couldn't go from the Child Timeline to Termina to the Adult Timeline, that Termina and Hyrule exist on the same timeline. But how could this be? They're entirely different dimensions with no effect on each other at all.

Hold it. You just pulled that out of your behind, which is why I said you guys were talking out of your backsides. How do you know they have no effect on each other? They're directly linked. It's perfectly possible to travel to and from each world. Why on Earth would travelling back and forth *somehow* send you to a completely different timeline? And they're NOT different dimensions, they're parallel worlds. That doesn't necessarily mean Termina occupies a whole different dimension in reality.

Do you believe that a universe parallel to ours would share a timeline with us?

If they're directly connected, why wouldn't it?

If one's going through time and space, it stands to reason that there could be literally an infinite amount of places to end up. Why is it so crazy to think that if someone from Child Timeline Hyrule went to Termina, a Terminian couldn't end up in Adult Timeline Hyrule? They're completely separate dimensions.

Why is a timeline the same sort of thing as a parallel world? Last I checked, THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY SEPERATE THINGS. Also, why would you randomly end up in a different timeline? There would be no way to travel between Hyrule and Termina more than once if the connection was a complete fluke. The idea that Link would somehow end up in the adult timeline is MY GOD so incredibly convoluted.

And yet, we have KoRL and the guardian spirits calling him Ganon far more times than they call him Ganondorf. Plus, we have Zant call him Ganon. In both cases we hadn't seen him transform into a pig yet.

Please pay attention to what I'm actually saying next time.

[Ogmios22188]

Hold it. You just pulled that out of your behind, which is why I said you guys were talking out of your backsides. How do you know they have no effect on each other? They're directly linked. It's perfectly possible to travel to and from each world. Why on Earth would travelling back and forth *somehow* send you to a completely different timeline? And they're NOT different dimensions, they're parallel worlds. That doesn't necessarily mean Termina occupies a whole different dimension in reality.

If they're directly connected, why wouldn't it?
Why is a timeline the same sort of thing as a parallel world? Last I checked, THOSE ARE TWO COMPLETELY SEPERATE THINGS. Also, why would you randomly end up in a different timeline? There would be no way to travel between Hyrule and Termina more than once if the connection was a complete fluke. The idea that Link would somehow end up in the adult timeline is MY GOD so incredibly convoluted.
Please pay attention to what I'm actually saying next time.

How could parallel worlds not be different dimensions? Parellel means they're side by side; they don't intersect. Ergo, they don't occupy the same space, i.e., dimension. Hyrule and Termina exist in separate dimensions.

Okay, let's say on an Earth parallel to ours, the Nazis won World War II. That clearly has not affected our timeline. Either that, or there's no parellel Earth where that happened. Either way, no effect.

Parallel worlds and timelines aren't necessarily the same thing, but they go hand-in-hand. If two worlds are parallel to each other, they occupy different spaces, i.e., dimensions, like I said above. If they're separate from each other, that means they have separate histories. A timeline is a sequence of events; a chronology. If they are parallel worlds, they have parallel timelines. And I'm not saying Link would end up in the Adult Timeline. I'm saying that Tingle would, or a descendant of Tingle. Who's to say that the way that Link got to Termina is the only place where one could travel to another dimension? Isn't it possible that there are other wormholes or what-have-you that could take you elsewhere in time and space? I don't see the problem here.

[Fyxe]

How could parallel worlds not be different dimensions? Parellel means they're side by side; they don't intersect. Ergo, they don't occupy the same space, i.e., dimension. Hyrule and Termina exist in separate dimensions.

They DO intersect though. That's the point. Even if they are in different dimensions, they are locked together.

Okay, let's say on an Earth parallel to ours, the Nazis won World War II. That clearly has not affected our timeline. Either that, or there's no parellel Earth where that happened. Either way, no effect.

Termina isn't an alternate timeline to Hyrule though. The worlds are parallel to each other, but they haven't formed from the same source.

Parallel worlds and timelines aren't necessarily the same thing, but they go hand-in-hand. If two worlds are parallel to each other, they occupy different spaces, i.e., dimensions, like I said above. If they're separate from each other, that means they have separate histories. A timeline is a sequence of events; a chronology. If they are parallel worlds, they have parallel timelines.

But that's the difference between a split timeline and a parallel world. For example...

---Hyrule---
---Termina---

Those are the two timelines for each world. Now, lets say Hyrule has a split...

-----------------Timeline split
---Hyrule ---<Original timeline
---Termina----------------------

Bad diagram, but I think it's clear what I mean. The second timeline branches off *completely seperately* from the original timeline *and* Termina. The second timeline may have it's own split timeline version of Termina, but you can't disengage a parallel world and connect it to a completely seperate timeline.

And I'm not saying Link would end up in the Adult Timeline. I'm saying that Tingle would, or a descendant of Tingle. Who's to say that the way that Link got to Termina is the only place where one could travel to another dimension? Isn't it possible that there are other wormholes or what-have-you that could take you elsewhere in time and space? I don't see the problem here.

Of course it MAY be possible, if you could somehow bypass the whole system I just outlined, but that's so horribly convoluted, and dare I say, FANFICCY that it's just unreasonable.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 February 2007 - 04:02 PM.

[FDL]

Call me crazy, but a human is a bit different from a monster pig beast. Of course they're the same character, but they're NOT the same physical being.

What I mean is, the names don't refer to a specific form. He's known as Ganon in human and pig form.

Please pay attention to what I'm actually saying next time.

I wasn't talking to you there, I was talking to HoL.

[Fyxe]

What I mean is, the names don't refer to a specific form. He's known as Ganon in human and pig form.

Come on, everyone knows the *general* rule is that Ganondorf refers to his human form, while Ganon refers to his demon form.

In TWW, a point is made about him being called both Ganon and Ganondorf. I figure this is primarily because we never see him outside of his human form.

Anyway, my point was about the difference between his human and monster forms, whatever name they have.

[FDL]

Okay, whatever, it's no big deal. I guess I didn't understand what you meant.

[Mgoblue201]

Well here's the conondrum. When they show Link on his horse, they don't mention him leaving Hyrule, not even in the Hylian text. They show the Triforce beside him, but they do that in all the previous shots of Link too, so that proves nothing. They then talk about Ganon breaking his seal some time later, and when the people prayed to the gods, it said the Hero of Time did not appear because he had disappeared into the flow of time, one a direct result of the other and not just that he had simply disappeared into the flows of time and then left Hyrule. This comment is curious because it seems to suggest that had the hero not disappeared into the flows of time, then he could have saved them. But it would make sense if the seal is broken mere decades after OOT happened.

There's also the developer comment that says it's talking about MM, but this is weird first because he does not say the image of Link riding off on his horse is MM. He says that the "disappeared into the flows of time" part is talking about MM. He also seems to suggest that Ganon broke free when Link was in Termina. But that's impossible since Ganon wasn't even sealed by that point. You could say that the seal was retroactive when Link went back in time. But then that would make WW's relience on the adult ending completely irrelevant. The game absolutely relies on the event of Link sealing Ganon actually taking place. That's what we'd have to assume from the text. So then the only theory that works is the one where Link lived out the seven years. But the introduction of TP makes that very difficult. There is nothing in TP that seems to suggest that the adult events happened.

So really, any way you look at it is probably going to violate something. There's a decent chance they probably meant MM by that scene of Link walking away, although it's probably impossible to prove. I kid you not though I didn't even think of that possibly meaning MM until a few days ago when I saw the Zelda Box thing. The text doesn't corrospond. It does not say, not even in the Hylian, that he was leaving the land of Hyrule. It's only suggested because he appears to be moving away from the castle, although frankly I always took that to be just a general scene of Link riding a horse, not meant to be anything specific...again, I kid you not. Even when I believed the single timeline I didn't think that was anything special. But I could be wrong.

This topic has gotten well off track.

[FDL]

Well, despite the fact that it does work well in a child timeline, there isn't really that much that says it can't be in the adult timeline. In fact, TP I think has references to both times, whether stylistically or in the actual story. However, that's not to say I think it is in the adult timeline, just that isn't that impossible.

[Duke Serkol]

Here's the kicker though... suppose the somebody in the adult timeline was to enter Termina: would he find an alternate Termina?
I'm not saying it's impossible for the splitting of the timeline to affact Hyrule and other worlds; it is conceivable that there may be a single time stream for all dimensions and that once it is split this effectively duplicates all of them... but both because of the Legend of the Fairy (and other stuff) and the fact that it seems out of line for Zelda to have the power to affect worlds other than Hyrule with the decision of sending Link back, it seems more likely to me that should somebody in the Adult timeline enter Termina they'd find themselves in the very same land that was saved from Majora's Mask and that (therefore) each dimension has its own time stream that cannot be affected by what happens in another.

But again, we don't have any real experience of time streams and alternate dimensions, so I suggest we don't talk of them like we know for sure what could and could not happen.

[Masamune]

Hello. I was using the name just to make my point more obvious. Ganon or Ganondorf, everyone KNOWS Ganon has two specific forms.

Oh ho! Don't talk to me as if I got into the series at OoT. That's a joke. The POINT is that Ganondorf was, has, and always will be originally born as a human. He had no backstory until ALttP, and when they gave the backstory, they made him a human before he became a monster.

OoT is the game that shows us the first transformation into Ganon.

Oh dear, I believe you took me too seriously. Poking fun is what I do, of course I know that OoT shows Ganondorf's origin. Now you're the one insinuating I never played OoT.

But my point about Ganon/Ganondorf is that you seemed to infer that Ganon was a separate 'beast' from Veran simply because of the name. Those names are used interchangeably, as already stated. In essence, there is no difference between Ganon's transformations and those of Veran. Assuming Veran was a monster first is more or less trying to push what we know about Onox on Veran. I would assume her human form is her real form, since she's never all "ZOMG! Now you shall see my TRUE FORM!"