113 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

o.o Why should I ignore him? I want to feel free to point out when someone on their high horse is actually being more stupid than they thought I was being.

Also, my point was that there's no indication that any of the Skull Kids you see as an adult are the exact same one you see as a kid.

[Masamune]

Cleopatra's Nose, people. Going back in time and changing things means LOTS of things could turn out differently: even things you would think would be affected. Just because something happens in the CT (Skull Kid getting MM), it does not mean that it would happen the same way in the AT because in the CT, Ganondorf never took over, which affected EVERYTHING.

True that may be, but I would consider Skull Kid obtaining Majora's Mask a completely separate event not affected by Ganondorf's reign. While the Butterfly Effect is a sweet and pretty idea, it doesn't mean that me deciding to have ham and cheese instead of going to McDonalds for lunch is going to effect what a guy in China is going to eat for dinner. They're completely unrelated events and Majora's Mask happens so soon after when Ganondorf would have 'taken over' that it would have happened in the Adult Timeline anyways.

And so Fyxe doesn't use caps again, I'm not proposing that the Skull Kid we see as an adult is necessarily the one we see as a child. I'm just taking the conclusion that, if they are indeed the same, then that would be evidence against Split Timeline.

(And it would seem to me that it would be a bit logical they are the same, but that's a point that's based on common sense rather than solid evidence. So I won't push that idea any further.)

Edited by Masamune, 11 February 2007 - 12:14 PM.

[FDL]

And guys, THERE IS MORE THAN ONE SKULL KID. And if you give the main one a Skull Mask, they all wear one.

But their masks are different, imitations.

Cleopatra's Nose, people. Going back in time and changing things means LOTS of things could turn out differently: even things you would think would be affected. Just because something happens in the CT (Skull Kid getting MM), it does not mean that it would happen the same way in the AT because in the CT, Ganondorf never took over, which affected EVERYTHING.

You can't just throw out things if they don't suit your timeline. I mean, certain things maybe, but you can't use something like this to say "There HAS TO BE a split timeline". For something as major as how many timelines there ae, you have to look at everything, IMO. Truth is, NEITHER timeline theory works. Many post-OoT games have references to both timelines.

[Hero of Legend]

(And it would seem to me that it would be a bit logical they are the same, but that's a point that's based on common sense rather than solid evidence. So I won't push that idea any further.)

Well, my common sense tells me, since I can kill him, and he still keeps on coming back, there's more than one of him. And it would be kinda inhuman of Link to just walk up and MURDER his friend for some quick cash.

...More so than doing the same to other innocent Skull Kids, that is.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 February 2007 - 05:05 PM.

[coinilius]

I didn't call Ambi Naryu, I got the order you fight them mixed up. That's NOT a stupid mistake. Stop being bloody childish.

And guys, THERE IS MORE THAN ONE SKULL KID. And if you give the main one a Skull Mask, they all wear one.

Fyxe, it isn't about being childish, it was just something I found funny. I hadn't played Ages in awhile, which is why I said 'turtle', from faulty memory on exactly what the shape was. Just like you made an honest mistake about Ambi/Nayru. That's why I repeated the wording you originally used, with a after it (the Yeesk bit, which was what you said). Because I honestly thought you would get that I wasn't seriously having a go at you about the Ambi thing, which was why I mirrored your earlier comment (especially after that other, similar conversation we had). I never said you made a stupid mistake, you've just read that in yourself. There was no high horses involved, you just seem to have over-reacted to a gentle ribbing (back).

Edited by coinilius, 11 February 2007 - 07:17 PM.

[Fyxe]

I'm sorry coinilius. I guess I'm slightly paranoid. Some people around here geniunely do seem to hate my guts for no reason and will take any opportunity to mocketh.

Okay, they have a reason, I'm annoying and rather arrogant. But in a fun way!

FDS, why are their masks imitations? How do you know? They could have just got their own from the Happy Mask Shop.

[coinilius]

I'm sorry coinilius. I guess I'm slightly paranoid. Some people around here geniunely do seem to hate my guts for no reason and will take any opportunity to mocketh.

Okay, they have a reason, I'm annoying and rather arrogant. But in a fun way!

I'm sorry too for making you think that

[Evilsbane]

But their masks are different, imitations.
You can't just throw out things if they don't suit your timeline. I mean, certain things maybe, but you can't use something like this to say "There HAS TO BE a split timeline". For something as major as how many timelines there ae, you have to look at everything, IMO. Truth is, NEITHER timeline theory works. Many post-OoT games have references to both timelines.

When I use phrases like AT and CT, it doesn't exclusively mean Split Timeline. In a Linear Timeline, they both exist in OoT, at least. Except that at the end the CT overwrites the AT instead of becomng a separate timeline.

While the Butterfly Effect is a sweet and pretty idea, it doesn't mean that me deciding to have ham and cheese instead of going to McDonalds for lunch is going to effect what a guy in China is going to eat for dinner. They're completely unrelated events and Majora's Mask happens so soon after when Ganondorf would have 'taken over' that it would have happened in the Adult Timeline anyways.

Except that half the reason that the Skull Kid ends up in Termina is because he was running from Link. And Link was only there because he wasn't trapped in the SR, which another key difference between the CT and AT.

Edited by Evilsbane, 12 February 2007 - 02:18 AM.

[Masamune]

I think it's extremely likely that Skull Kid had already been dimension-hopping before Link even showed up, so Link is not the reason Skull Kid showed up in Termina. He had already caused the death of the Deku Butler's son and Darmani before Link even showed up. In fact I would say it's more likely that Skull Kid lured Link into Termina rather than being chased there. Meaning had Link been locked up in the SR the whole time, Skull Kid would have just kept doing his thing until the Moon destroyed Termina.

[Ogmios22188]

Sorry for my absence, I've been busy. Onwards with the discussion, Fyxe!

Um, have you any idea how time works? If something can travel from one place to another at will, time is affected. If Skull Kid is travelling back and forth, both Termina and Hyrule's histories are changed.

Sure I know how time works. Look at it this way. When Link goes back in time in Termina, is he turning Hyrule's history backwards as well? I doubt that very much. The histories are not affected by each other. Link affects both their histories, but the worlds are separate. When Skull Kid is in Hyrule, he's in Hyrule. The people of Termina don't know where he is, and the only difference is that he's not there. But his absence from Termina would not necessarily mean that he'd have to be present in Hyrule. No one would know where he is. Therefore, in Terminian history, there would be no record of Skull Kid going to Hyrule at a certain point. It has no affect on its history.

Uh, those are two same things. Link's absense from Hyrule is the same as his presense in Termina. Therefore his presence in Termina DOES affect Hyrule's history because, logically, it means he's otherwise absent from Hyrule when he otherwise would not be.

This is the same principle as before. Just because the people of Hyrule would know that Link wouldn't be in Hyrule, that wouldn't necessarily mean he was in Termina. They don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. For all they know, he died or went to another country. Hell, most people probably didn't even know he left. No affect on history.

Except that that, unfortunately, is fanfic. As far as we know, there's one way in, and one way out. Skull Kid travels to and from both worlds with no indication that he is travelling across timelines.

That's because he's always going the same way. I know this may be hard to buy now, what I'm saying, but I'm confident that the Single Timeline Theory will eventually go the way of the dodo just as the Single Link Theory did, in time. When that happens, the only way to reconcile the Legend of the Fairy will be to either decide that it's an Easter Egg, which seems most likely, honestly, since you don't need the Tingle Tuner at all to complete the game, or you'll need to accept that there may be other ways out of Termina and into another timeline.

No they wouldn't. Parallel means they need a constant connection. Once a split occurs, there is no connection from then onward.

But they're connected at a point in the past. They diverge from that point on. Parallel to each other.

Aaaand? So? A timeline isn't the same thing as an alternate world. It's an alternate timeline, not an alternate planet.

But it is, in a way. The Hyrule of the Adult Timeline, if one is to include the Wind Waker there, is quite different from the Hyrule of the Child Timeline. They have different people, different histories, different geographies. For all intents and purposes, they're different worlds. If someone went from, say, A Link to the Past Hyrule in the Child Timeline to The Wind Waker Hyrule, or what's left of it, in the Adult Timeline, they'd feel they were in different worlds, and they'd pretty much be right.

Um, no, there must not be, firstly because that's impossible, and secondly you only want there to be a way there so it fits your theory.

It's not impossible. And personally, I think the Legend of the Fairy isn't canon, but if it is, it can still be reconciled in a split timeline. As I said before, I'm sure future games will continue to point to a split timeline.

I think you'll find it isn't. You can't get to Mars just by going in any direction. But that's beside the main point.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm pretty sure we can assume that the space between dimensions is different from the space within dimensions. The former is what I was referring to.

Um, that's just not true.

Light years are vast distances. In a place without light, how could you really measure anything? Especially if you can't touch anything? It would be a void. Limitless. No distance and all distance.

I was using direction as a metaphor, anyway, a way of explaining it. It doesn't mean it goes in a literal direction.

Then why would you use it as a way to debunk my point? You sounded like you were taking it literally.

No, often forks go off in completely different directions. This isn't a dual carriageway. The point is, once a split occurs, there is no way to connect the two timelines together again. They are not linked. There is no weird portal that could take you from one to the other. It's completely different from a parallel world.

They're linked at a point in the past. From that common origin, they diverge. You may not be able to connect the histories again, but why wouldn't you be able to get to that alternate timeline?

There's no such thing as a 'parallel timeline'. One change in the past sends history off in a completely different direction. Like I said, there's no tie. There's no portal. There's no rope holding the realities together. Parallel worlds, meanwhile, *need* a link. Take the Twilight Realm - does anyone think that travelling to and from the Twilight Realm will send you into a completely different timeline? No, of course not. Why should it?

Are you familiar with the Trunks/Android/Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z? In that storyline, a warrior from a future in which all of Earth's heroes have been killed by Androids goes back in time to prevent Goku from contracted the disease that would kill him and lead to all the other heroes' deaths. When Trunks goes back to the future, he finds his future hasn't changed, even though the past becomes wildly different. So, that's an example of two timelines. There's also a third timeline. Cell comes from a timeline in which Trunks has killed the Androids. Cell then steals Trunks' time machine to go back to the past that the Trunks from the other timeline went to. After Cell is defeated, in addition to the Androids, Trunks goes back to his future, kills the Androids of his time, and then kills Cell. That leaves us with three different timelines. The timeline in which Goku lives and Goku dies diverge at that very point. Also, the timeline in which Goku dies and Trunks kills the Androids and Cell diverges from the one in which Cell kills Trunks at THAT very point. So, there are connections with the different timelines and divergences. They share common origins and then spread out. This is the same principle. And I think it's pretty evident that the Twilight Realm's relationship to Hyrule is quite different from that of Termina.

You're assuming that there is more than one portal. Why? Why would there be more than one? Also, it's not a wormhole. A wormhole is something very different. You couldn't ever fall through a wormhole. And as far as I remember, a wormhole would not take you to another reality.

Why WOULDN'T there be more than one? That's the point. Scientists theorize that one could get to other dimensions through sub-atomic gaps. That means there could be an infinite amount of other worlds to get to, parallel to ours. And if Termina is connected to Hyrule via the Lost Woods, would that only be the case in the Child Timeline? What if someone from the Adult Timeline stumbled into that section of the Lost Woods. Would they not be able to reach Termina? If so, why not?

[Masamune]

Why WOULDN'T there be more than one? That's the point. Scientists theorize that one could get to other dimensions through sub-atomic gaps. That means there could be an infinite amount of other worlds to get to, parallel to ours. And if Termina is connected to Hyrule via the Lost Woods, would that only be the case in the Child Timeline? What if someone from the Adult Timeline stumbled into that section of the Lost Woods. Would they not be able to reach Termina? If so, why not?

They couldn't get there in the Adult Timeline. Or they could, but there'd be a big bloody expanse of nothingness.

Take this example. You have two timelines.

In Timeline A, Racecar 1 and Racecar 2 are driving along at the same speed.
In Timeline B, Racecar 1 and Racecar 2 are driving along at the same speed. Suddenly Racecar 2 crashes into a wall.

In both timelines, there's a finish line.

In Timeline A, Mr. Cleaner can go into Racecar 1 and Racecar 2 and clean the seats.
In Timeline B, Mr. Cleaner can only go into Racecar 1 because Racecar 2 has ceased to exist. The fact that the Racecar continues to exist in Timeline A is completely irrelevant. Even if he climbs into Racecar 1, which exists in both timelines, he can't use it to climb back into Racecar 2. There is no access point between the two in Timeline B.

And of course Timeline A is the Child Timeline where Link saves Termina (Racecar 2) after saving Hyrule (Racecar 1). Timeline B is the Adult Timeline, where Termina is destroyed but Hyrule is saved.

Zelda is full of parallel worlds which we know for a fact -do- exist. The Sacred Realm, Termina, and the Twilight Zone Realm to throw out a few. Of course we can't be sure Parallel Timelines exist, but if they do, we have absolutely -no- reference that one can travel from one timeline to another. In the example I showed above, Parallel Worlds are not gateways between Timelines. Hyrule, Termina, the Sacred Realm, and the Twilight Realm would just be other racecars on a single track.

That said, of course I don't believe in Multiple Timelines because it gets really messy. Consider Majora's Mask (again!). Let's say I played seven cycles to beat the game. What do I end up with?

Adult Timeline (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 1 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 2 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 3 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 4 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 5 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 6 (Termina destroyed)
Child Timeline, MM Cycle 7 (Termina is saved)

Split Timeline follows this same principle (which means you guys really shouldn't bother with sidequests in Majora's Mask, cuz you're totally making a ton of timelines there guys).

[MikePetersSucks]

I just want to note that the word "Parallel" means that the two timelines/dimensions in question wouldn't be touching at ALL, whatsoever, whether by diverging from the same point or being able to travel between them.

[Ogmios22188]

But Masamune, you're arguing from the point of view that the timeline of Termina and the timeline of Hyrule are somehow the same thing. They're not. They have different histories, different places, and different people. In the Adult Timeline of Hyrule, Termina could still exist because Terminian history is independent from Hyrulean history. Someone could go from Adult Timeline Hyrule to Termina and it would still be there, because they don't have the same timeline. This is what I've been arguing and, hopefully, demonstrating this whole time.

And as far as time cycles are concerned, the process will continue into infinity. Some Terminas will be destroyed, but an infinite amount of them will continue to exist.

Edited by Ogmios22188, 14 February 2007 - 07:23 PM.

[Masamune]

They are the same timeline. It's not a 'somehow' at all.

Time itself is a concept that exists outside of 'parallel worlds'. It is for this reason Link can enter the Dark World and return back without unfortunately ending up a million years later or earlier. Time is like a box. Inside this box are balls, and each ball is a universe, dimension, or whatever you want to call it. What you seem to be implying, however, is that time itself is contained into each separate universe. If this were the case, there would be no way of knowing when Link would be returned to after leaving any of the multitude of Zelda dimensions.

[Vertiboy]

This is my view on the Hyrule-Termina connection. As it has been said, theoretically, there could be an infinite amount of parallel universes for each and every outcome and decision in the history of time. If that applies to the Zelda universe, then, at some point in time, an event or so happened differently in Termina's universe that would lead to everything the way it is at the time of Majora's Mask. This is a fan fiction example, but what if Termina is the results of the goddesses not leaving behind the Triforce in that universe? It's possible that other events could happen that would lead to that, but let's just say that the one happening starts a chain reaction that makes Termina different than Hyrule.

Let's say that the split timeline applies. We know that in the child timeline, Termina is saved. The question is about the adult timeline. Does that Hyrule link to the same universe as the Termina from the child timeline, or does it link to a corresponding version of Termina that is affected separately?

Anyway, if for some reason the adult timeline is connected to its own version of Termina, then I have serious doubts that version of Termina would be screwed to begin with. Look at it this way. How did the Skull Kid get powers to bring the Termin moon down? Majora's Mask. Who had that mask? The Happy Mask Salesman. Who is not present (at least in what we see in OoT) in the adult timeline. Said Salesman. He could be dead. Maybe not. Who knows. If he's dead, then the Skull Kid would never get MM, and then he would never be able to bring the moon down, and Termina would be safe. If the Salesman is still alive with MM, even if the Skull Kid gets it, when exactly did the Skull Kid start to bring the moon down? Was it when he traveled to Termina to avoid Link after stealing the Ocarina of Time? Did he do it long before then?

I guess I didn't have much to contribute but more questions. Still, there is a chance that Termina is safe the adult timeline.

[Ogmios22188]

They are the same timeline. It's not a 'somehow' at all.

Time itself is a concept that exists outside of 'parallel worlds'. It is for this reason Link can enter the Dark World and return back without unfortunately ending up a million years later or earlier. Time is like a box. Inside this box are balls, and each ball is a universe, dimension, or whatever you want to call it. What you seem to be implying, however, is that time itself is contained into each separate universe. If this were the case, there would be no way of knowing when Link would be returned to after leaving any of the multitude of Zelda dimensions.

But the parallel worlds basically exist within their own universes, since they have no effect on each other. That's what I've been saying. And we never see Link get back to mainland Hyrule after Majora's Mask, so who knows how much time passed? Maybe all the time he spent repeating the same three days actually passed in Hyrule, or maybe hardly any time passed at all, since their times and, by extension, timelines are not connected. I don't see why this is such a hard concept to understand, and I'm apparently not the only one who thinks this way. What if I stumbled into a parallel world, one similar to ours in the same ways that Termina is similar to Hyrule. There's a sense of time, being 24 hours or so a day, it rains. There's hot and cold regions. There are people similar to those on our world but they aren't them. They're dopplegangers. The people believe in different gods and their world is completely different geographically. When it comes down to it, all the similarities between our worlds would be superficial. Everything else is different, including history. History is the recorded sequence of events over time. A timeline is a sequence of events. If you have a different history, you have a different timeline. This parallel world would in no way share a timeline with our world. So how could Termina share a timeline with Hyrule? It's the exact same principle. It's independent, and therefore, not connected to Child Hyrule or Adult Hyrule.

[spunky-monkey]

I'm against the idea of an infinite number of Terminas existing in the Child Timeline because the idea that one version was saved and countless others were destroyed is too depressing, Majora's Mask ending shows everything you ever did to help the people come true which counts as evidence that once the 3-day loop is broken everything corrects itself, Link may do nothing on that loop except defeat Majora's Wrath and yet the sequence shows everyone is happy when you get all 25 masks.

They're not. They have different histories, different places, and different people. In the Adult Timeline of Hyrule, Termina could still exist because Terminian history is independent from Hyrulean history.

But that's just it, Link wasn't there to save Termina during the events of Ocarina of Time, it was destroyed. Only the CT still has the parallel world intact because the course of history was altered.

[FDL]

I'm against the idea of an infinite number of Terminas existing in the Child Timeline because the idea that one version was saved and countless others were destroyed is too depressing,

That's too sci-fi anyway, if you ask me. We already have the stupid split timeline, that's enough sci-fi for Zelda. Personally, as I've said before, I think that in MM each time Link did something he changed it's "fate". Kaepora Gaebora specifically says that Link's goal is to change the "fate" of the world, so I think that could be why evrything's okay at the end. The fact that we're not shown this until the end of the game is merely a gameplay element.

[Ogmios22188]

But that's just it, Link wasn't there to save Termina during the events of Ocarina of Time, it was destroyed. Only the CT still has the parallel world intact because the course of history was altered.

You guys are seriously making me want to scream. It doesn't matter who saves Termina or where they come from, as long as it's saved. That's because it has a different timeline than both Child Hyrule and Adult Hyrule. If there is only one Termina, and it's in a parallel universe, with a different timeline. It is completely independent of Hyrulean history. That's WHY if someone went from Adult Timeline Hyrule to Termina, it would still be there, because even though Link is running around in Adult Hyrule in "Ocarina of Time", he will eventually go back to the past, and go to Termina to save it. Though Link is in the Child Timeline of Hyrule when he goes to Termina, it doesn't matter, because Termina is separate from Hyrule(s) and has its own timeline, independent from Hyrule. Independent is the opposite of dependent. If it's independent of the Hyrulean timeline, it's not dependent on it. That means Hyrule's timeline(s) has no effect on it. If Link saves it, it's saved across the board, throughout the whole multiverse, because it has a separate timeline from Hyrule. I really wish you could read my mind to see what I'm trying to say, because I'm apparently not eloquent enough. I've only been repeating myself in different ways, after all.

[Mad Scrub]

Link is lured into Termina by Skull Kid after the road between the two time periods is closed. In my opinion this means no further changes can be made to the adult universe by Link's actions in the child universe otherwise it would be overwritten completely by TP and TWW would've been a complete waste of time. Therefore Termina would be destroyed in the adult universe. However this depends on whether or not you consider The Legend of the Fairy to be canon. Also we see Link in The Lost Woods at the end of MM.

[Masamune]

Well, what Ogmios is seeing it from a different perspective.

What I (and others) are saying is that Time is this big box. Inside this box is smaller boxes. A box of Hyrule, a box of Termina, and so forth. So if you split the timeline, the big time box split into two different boxes. Everything inside a big time box can reach eachother, but a smaller box within a big box can't go to another small box in another big box.

What Ogmios is saying is that Hyrule is a big box and Termina is a big box. Inside Hyrule you have your own smaller boxes, each of which is a 'timeline'. The same applies to Termina. Since these timelines are governed only by the individual worlds and not vice versa, it doesn't matter what timeline Hyrule takes, because Termina's timeline is independent of it.

Is he wrong? Not really, since we have no idea which approach is true. I prefer my approach more, since it seems most logical to me. But of course, Ogmios is just as right as I am. (Yeah, I'm totally TML-ing this thread. We're all right, HA!)

[Ogmios22188]

It's all the Legend of the Fairy's fault!

I figure it's non-canon, but I still thought I should argue from the perspective that it is, to maintain the integrity of the split timeline. But who knows, right?

[Jumbie]

What Ogmios is saying is that Hyrule is a big box and Termina is a big box. Inside Hyrule you have your own smaller boxes, each of which is a 'timeline'. The same applies to Termina. Since these timelines are governed only by the individual worlds and not vice versa, it doesn't matter what timeline Hyrule takes, because Termina's timeline is independent of it.

Just for the record I'd like to say that I as well have always been favouring this theory. This way I wrote it in our Split Timeline article on ZL, for the very reason of justifying the Legend of the Fairy.

It's all the Legend of the Fairy's fault!

I figure it's non-canon, but I still thought I should argue from the perspective that it is, to maintain the integrity of the split timeline. But who knows, right?

It's definitely better to accept it as canon, because after all, there is exactly this way that it *can* work.

[Vertiboy]

It's definitely better to accept it as canon, because after all, there is exactly this way that it *can* work.

With enough assumption, anything could work. That's why it may not always be best to judge a theory on whether or not it is possible.