122 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

I'm sure this has all been mentioned before in various places, but humour me, for I have just finally finished the game (aaaahh good gaaaame) after nearly 60 hours of gameplay and I would like to comment on some various things, namely the concept of tying the games together that I believe Aonuma has mentioned.

Has anyone else noticed all the references? Not just to OoT, but to other games in the series. The Twili, for instance, or rather the 'dark tribe', and the Twilight Mirror. There are obvious parallels between the Twilight Realm and the Dark World and Dark Mirror in Four Sword Adventures.

As for the Fused Shadows... Well, well. Majora's Mask, anyone? That was created by an unknown tribe. Then there's Dark Link appearing in that freaky cutscene. Not only that, but are the Fused Shadows the true origin of the infamous trident? If you didn't notice, the weapon that Midna used while under the power of the Fused Shadows is what appears to be a trident.

Not only that, but Zant seems remarkably similar to Majora.

Of course, all these things can be attributed to Aonuma simply making homages. The similarities to Majora's Mask, the first game he directed, can of course be attributed to that. And as many homages as the game does make, it doesn't make any attempt to blindly follow the events of other games unchanged (take Ganondorf's sealing, for example, which is either a complete retcon of the OoT sealing or an entirely new event).

Finally, on a personal note...

Midna, don't goooo. ;-; Ending made me cry.

[SOAP]

I see simmilarities between the Mirror of Drakness and the Twilight Mirror. There are differences but thes simmilarities are jsut too striking to dismiss. Which leads me to believe TP may place after FSA, not OoT, especially with TP's interepretation of Ganon's being sompletely unlike anything OoT's ending. I dobt its' a retcon, it could be a new event in the child timeline but then again, since there's no indication Link was involved at all, it could have nothing to do with OoT at all. I'm not sure of OoT's relationship with TP is anymore since everything that references it seems to be nothing more than a mere nod. All I know is OoT comes before TP in the general past since the strongest peice of evidence is a an photograph of the fisherman from OoT, it itself being ancient as well.

There are some also some tiny details thrown in in there that totally got me confused, like the TWW Hylian appearing on some of the gravestones in TP.

[FDL]

I'd say the first half at least has strong ties to OoT. Many of the things mentioned and shown are derived from OoT/MM in some way. It's actually kinda annoying, because the first half has many references to the "ancient hero" and the "power of the gods" as well as giving Ganondorf the same backstory and design as OoT Ganondorf but after the Arbiter's Grounds, it really changes into a completely different game, story-wise. We have all this focus on the Ooca, who have absolutely no bearing on the story in the end. It's too bad too, because the first half had the perfect balance of OoT/MM references, IMO. TWW had too many inane references that made no sense or bearing on the overall story, while the second half of TP had virtually none.

[Duke Serkol]

Zant seems remarkably similar to Majora.

How so?

[SOAP]

Actually Zant reminds me of a Wizzrobe.

[Fyxe]

There wasn't that much focus on the Oocca. I don't know why some people make a big deal about that. They're weird creatures that live in a city in the sky and they were possibly created before the Hylians and then made the Hylians themselves. We don't know the truth. I thought they focused on it to just the right extent. The only person that talked about it was, um... I forgot his name, the cute guy with the glasses in the team of heroes.

To be honest, I'm glad TP wasn't all references. It set itself apart from being a rehash of OoT (well, I didn't think it was going that way, but I can see why some people thought it was) by taking itself in a unique and far better direction.

Oh, I forgot one of the references, a bit of a biggie.

The Temple of Time is so much like the Tower of the Gods. So much so that I'd argue that they are one and the same, and that the Hyrule Castle of TWW was built over the remains of the Temple of Time. Of course, the Temple of Time is in itself a massive reference, and seems to have some connection to the Oocca, although how much is questionable.

Also, one more thing. Does anyone know the names of all the enemies in TP? I know most of them, as although almost all had new looks, most of them were old enemies. Others have names on the Japanese Twilight Princess website (like King Bulblin and his ride, Lord Bulbo). But there was one enemy that appeared to almost certainly be Phantom Ganon, in the Arbiter's Grounds. I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but Phantom Ganon shares the same battle music as the brief fights with Zant for control of the Sols. I think this is merely foreshadowing, however, like Zant's laugh before he drives his sword into Stallord (if you noticed, it's almost identical to Ganondorf's sneering laugh in OoT). It's all building up the connection between Zant and Ganondorf, who is revealed soon after these moments to be an aspect of the plot.

[Nevermind]

How so?

Cos he acts like a circus clown.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 21 January 2007 - 08:37 PM.

[Fyxe]

How so?

His laugher and general behavior seem very manic, much like Majora's Incarnation and Wrath, and his style of fighting during the final part of the battle with him is very akin to Majora's Wrath. Also, his rapid fire blasts of magic are almost identical to Majora's Incarnation's attacks.

Basically, I'm under the impression that Majora was a Twili, or at least a Terminian counterpart, and Majora's Mask is a similar object to the Fused Shadows.

[FDL]

To be honest, I'm glad TP wasn't all references. It set itself apart from being a rehash of OoT (well, I didn't think it was going that way, but I can see why some people thought it was) by taking itself in a unique and far better direction.

That's why it was perfect. It established that it was OoT's sequel without being TWW's "legendary hero wuz here" fest. Only the most essetial items(the Bow, ToC) were established as owned by the hero, the rest was left to be it's own thing. The only thing I found dissapointing was the lack of OoT references in the ToT and the Castle. Stained glass, statues, ANYTHING would've been appreciated.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 21 January 2007 - 09:44 PM.

[coinilius]

There are some also some tiny details thrown in in there that totally got me confused, like the TWW Hylian appearing on some of the gravestones in TP.

TWW Hylian was used in FSA and TMC as well.

Edited by coinilius, 21 January 2007 - 09:58 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

I don't think the weapon used by Midna is the same Magic Trident Ganon uses. The three prongs were in a circle almost like a claw whereas the prongs on the Magic Trident are straight and next to one another. When Midna used the weapon against Ganon, was he in beast form? If he was and Midna's weapon is the Magic Trident perhaps she used it to seal Ganondorf's beast form inside. Then when Ganondorf is reborn in FSA he uses the Trident and recovers the previous Ganondorf's abilities and memories.

[Duke Serkol]

Also, his rapid fire blasts of magic are almost identical to Majora's Incarnation's attacks.

Very good point, as well as the manic behavior!

[~Light Goddess~]

His laugher and general behavior seem very manic, much like Majora's Incarnation and Wrath, and his style of fighting during the final part of the battle with him is very akin to Majora's Wrath. Also, his rapid fire blasts of magic are almost identical to Majora's Incarnation's attacks.

Basically, I'm under the impression that Majora was a Twili, or at least a Terminian counterpart, and Majora's Mask is a similar object to the Fused Shadows.

In truth, I felt sorry in some ways for Zant. It just occured at that moment in time that Ganondorf corrupted the first Twili that he could find in the realm. It also made him more corrupted for power than he had been before. Nontheless, still a crazy little bugger in oversized clothes I really was intrigued by him after the Water Temple cutscene.

I would also agree that Majora had a reference to the Twili, and possibly was one of the creators of the Fused Shadows. Maybe instead of banishing him to the Twilight Realm like the others, they made him drive into insanity in the Forgotten Woods, all alone...

Hmm, interesting what I came up with.

[SOAP]

TWW Hylian was used in FSA and TMC as well.

Yeah and taht's why I'd place them pre-TP as well. But what's actually on the gravestones--I think it was "Joing our torn off ancestors--reminds me of the Great Flood and leads me to believe that TP is probably post-TWW in a New Hyrule and the inciption meant that whoever was buried there was joing their ancestors of the Old Hyrule.

There wasn't that much focus on the Oocca. I don't know why some people make a big deal about that.

That was actually a relief though the Oocca were pretty pointless in general. Ooccoo and Jr. were helpful in dungeons but I'd prefer they were replaced with an ainanimate item or a dungeon mechanism. As race they weren't particularly useful. I think I only needed their help on two occcasions really early on in the Sky City dungeon but after that nothing and even then, roving peahat would've worked just as well like in the rest of the dungeon. Nor do they make the Sky City seem less empty and more make you care that a dragon is ravaging the city. It's also kinda ironic that the Sky City, their home, is the only place Ooccoo nad Jr. were no help at all.

Edited by SOAP, 22 January 2007 - 02:49 AM.

[coinilius]

Yeah and taht's why I'd place them pre-TP as well. But what's actually on the gravestones--I think it was "Joing our torn off ancestors--reminds me of the Great Flood and leads me to believe that TP is probably post-TWW in a New Hyrule and the inciption meant that whoever was buried there was joing their ancestors of the Old Hyrule.

Ahh yes, I've heard that about the gravestones as well - you wouldn't happen to know of any threads that talk about that, would you? I'd like to look into it some more now, but haven't seen any mention of it in awhile.

[Raien]

Zelda: Twilight Princess = James Bond: Die Another Day

The developers have said that the Zelda series will be completely different after TP, which pretty much follows the direction that James Bond took.

Perhaps TP doesn't even go in the timeline. I'm coming to terms with the idea that it really is just a general homage to the 12 games before it.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Of course, all these things can be attributed to Aonuma simply making homages. The similarities to Majora's Mask, the first game he directed, can of course be attributed to that. And as many homages as the game does make, it doesn't make any attempt to blindly follow the events of other games unchanged (take Ganondorf's sealing, for example, which is either a complete retcon of the OoT sealing or an entirely new event)

Im glad somebody mentioned that. Instead of relating something to another game through time, a simple homage. Yes.

...okay, a bit late for that comment. >.>

[Hero of Legend]

Has anyone else noticed all the references? Not just to OoT, but to other games in the series. The Twili, for instance, or rather the 'dark tribe', and the Twilight Mirror. There are obvious parallels between the Twilight Realm and the Dark World and Dark Mirror in Four Sword Adventures.

You forgot the many references to TMC, and the obvious nod to ALttP with the Master Sword in the Lost Woods. Still, yeah, you are right. These are most likely the connections mentioned by Aonuma and the NoA translators. Not exactly what the fans were hoping for, but it does help tie the series together.

As for the Fused Shadows... Well, well. Majora's Mask, anyone? That was created by an unknown tribe.

But the ones who made the Fused Shadows were the Twili's ancestors, and they were not the ones who made Majora...

Not only that, but are the Fused Shadows the true origin of the infamous trident? If you didn't notice, the weapon that Midna used while under the power of the Fused Shadows is what appears to be a trident.

I think it’s a spear... And besides, Phantom Ganon already had a Trident in OoT.

And as many homages as the game does make, it doesn't make any attempt to blindly follow the events of other games unchanged (take Ganondorf's sealing, for example, which is either a complete retcon of the OoT sealing or an entirely new event).

Well, you could always place it in the child timeline and it works just fine.

Not that I believe in that kind of timeline anymore. It seems the creators intend for games that interconnect with each other throughout the series, but no rigid ‘timeline’ in that sense.

His laugher and general behavior seem very manic, much like Majora's Incarnation and Wrath, and his style of fighting during the final part of the battle with him is very akin to Majora's Wrath. Also, his rapid fire blasts of magic are almost identical to Majora's Incarnation's attacks.

I say they are similar because they're both crazy as hell. And, in my opinion, the final battle with Zant is quite a bit more akin to the fight with the Garo Master than Majora, or anything else for that matter.

Speaking of which... Phantom Zant manages to be completely uninspired by taking his role and appearance from Phantom Ganon, and his boss battle strategy from the Golden Wizzrobe in TWW. Meanwhile, Zelda IS Phantom Ganon. Also, while I’m at it, haven’t I fought that final battle before?

Darn it Nintendo, you sure were original with the bosses of this game.

*Sarcasm, people.*

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 January 2007 - 10:11 AM.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Darn it Nintendo, you sure were original with the bosses of this game.

*Sarcasm, people.*

They did it for you people's love for the other 3-D zelda games.

[spunky-monkey]

I enjoyed spotting all the references to the other Zelda titles in Twilight Princess, especially Majora's Mask ones. Zant's fighting style was indeed similar to that evil entity.

Speaking of which... Phantom Zant manages to be completely uninspired by taking his role and appearance from Phantom Ganon, and his boss battle strategy from the Golden Wizzrobe in TWW.

One of the things I miss from tWW was 'Golden Wizzrobe' and sorta wish they could have incorporated it into TP; that monster's ability to summon dark knights would give players massive headaches.

[Fyxe]

But the ones who made the Fused Shadows were the Twili's ancestors, and they were not the ones who made Majora...

What? How do you know that? We know next to nothing about Majora.

I think it’s a spear...

A trident is just a three pronged spear.

And besides, Phantom Ganon already had a Trident in OoT.

Good point though, I forgot about that. Still, it's arguable whether that's the same trident.

Speaking of which... Phantom Zant manages to be completely uninspired by taking his role and appearance from Phantom Ganon, and his boss battle strategy from the Golden Wizzrobe in TWW. Meanwhile, Zelda IS Phantom Ganon. Also, while I’m at it, haven’t I fought that final battle before?

Darn it Nintendo, you sure were original with the bosses of this game.

*Sarcasm, people.*

'Phantom Zant' was just a brief miniboss and a homage to Phantom Ganon. Who cares? And Puppet Zelda is just Phantom Ganon who's is a repeat of Ganondorf from OoT who in turn is a repeat of Agahnim. It's called homage, and who really minds? That's one boss out of many. The *actual* Phantom Ganon in TP was unique and interesting (and freaky), being one of the few bosses that required changing into a wolf.

As for Ganondorf... Well, it's a swordfight, what did you expect? The main difference is the control method, which made the whole fight very interesting and enjoyable, to me. They could of just ended with Beast Ganon, who was the truely unique boss, but I'm glad they didn't. The horseback battle against Ganondorf followed by the swordfight was brilliant.

Oh, and by the way, almost all the other boss fights in TP were very clever, unique and original. So shush.

Edited by Fyxe, 22 January 2007 - 02:49 PM.

[Mystic Kitsune]

As for Ganondorf... Well, it's a swordfight, what did you expect? The main difference is the control method, which made the whole fight very interesting and enjoyable, to me. They could of just ended with Beast Ganon, who was the truely unique boss, but I'm glad they didn't. The horseback battle against Ganondorf followed by the swordfight was brilliant.

I agree! The fight was awesome ^^

I just wish Ganondorf had a larger variety of moves, you know?

[Fyxe]

That's true, he could have done with a magic attack or two. Still, I guess they wanted it to be a pure sword fight.

But hey, this is what I'm really hoping for... Ganondorf in Smash Brothers using that Light Sword.

Although personally I just want to see Midna in Smash Bros. in some form or other. Preferably playable, or at least have Wolf Link as a character. I would adore that. Mainly because Wolf Link was brilliant, and also because Midna is easily my favourite Zelda character ever.

[Mystic Kitsune]

Midna was pretty good.

Haha...she completley overshadowed Zelda in this game ^^

[Hero of Legend]

What? How do you know that? We know next to nothing about Majora.

Well, there is nothing implying the Twili created Majora, so...

A trident is just a three pronged spear.

Yeah, but Midna's isn't.

'Phantom Zant' was just a brief miniboss and a homage to Phantom Ganon. Who cares? And Puppet Zelda is just Phantom Ganon who's is a repeat of Ganondorf from OoT who in turn is a repeat of Agahnim. It's called homage, and who really minds?

Don't take everything I say so seriously. I just think making Puppet Zelda into yet another Phantom Ganon was somewhat of a waste. I mean, it’s freaking ZELDA! You’ll never fight her again.

And on a related note, what was the point of giving her a sword in the first place if she's practically never going to use it?

The *actual* Phantom Ganon in TP was unique and interesting (and freaky), being one of the few bosses that required changing into a wolf.

It's not like that ghost boss is officially Phantom Ganon. It's more of a random, eh, ghost, I'd say.

As for Ganondorf... Well, it's a swordfight, what did you expect? The main difference is the control method, which made the whole fight very interesting and enjoyable, to me. They could of just ended with Beast Ganon, who was the truely unique boss, but I'm glad they didn't. The horseback battle against Ganondorf followed by the swordfight was brilliant.

Yeah, I guess my main beef is that I was expecting a battle that surpassed the one in TWW, and was ultimately let down. Basically, it’s not as epic, not as fun, and a hell of a lot more broken.

Also, what were they thinking when they made Ganondorf’s ‘stabby’ death scene? It’s damn ugly. My sister actually laughed when she saw it. And I don’t blame her.

Oh, and by the way, almost all the other boss fights in TP were very clever, unique and original. So shush.

You mean like Armogohma and Morpheel? Yeah, totally original.

...Except they kinda sound like Gohma and Morpha... And kinda look like them too... Uh-oh...

Anyway Fyxe, I don’t think any of these things are bad or detract from the game. They could have been better, though. That’s all.

Haha...she completley overshadowed Zelda in this game ^^

Intentionally, no doubt.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 January 2007 - 03:59 PM.

[Fyxe]

Well, there is nothing implying the Twili created Majora, so...

Majora would be a person. Majora's Mask has obvious similarities to the Fused Shadows, there's no denying that. And when Majora forms, he also shares many similarities to Zant.

Yeah, but Midna's isn't.

I'm fairly sure it was. o.o

Don't take everything I say so seriously. I just think making Puppet Zelda into yet another Phantom Ganon was somewhat of a waste. I mean, it’s ZELDA! You’ll never fight her again.

True, but how else could Link fight her? He can't exactly just go and stab her, can he? It's a perfect opportunity to use the Agahnim style of battle. At least she has that awesome triangle attack.

And on a related note, what was the point of giving her a sword in the first place if she's practically never going to use it?

Well, she does use it... I mean, first you're complaining about too many swordfights (see Ganondorf) and now you're saying there should be more?

It's not like that ghost boss is officially Phantom Ganon. It's more of a random, eh, ghost, I'd say.

Except that he appears in the place where Ganon was sealed, and the sword seems very similar to Phantom Ganon's sword (and was also sealed, using sutras).

Yeah, I guess my main beef is that I was expecting a battle that surpassed the one in TWW, and was ultimately let down. Basically, it’s not as epic, not as fun, and a hell of a lot more broken.

Also, what were they thinking when they made Ganondorf’s ‘stabby’ death scene? It’s damn ugly. My sister actually laughed when she saw it. And I don’t blame her.

What? Ugly? It was? I don't know what you're talking about, quite frankly.

And less epic? No, it wasn't. I loved the final battle of TWW but TP's version, objectively, is no less epic.

Yeah, Armogohma and Morpheel! Never heard of those before!

...Except they kinda sound like Gohma and Morpha... And kinda look like them too... Uh-oh...

Don't forget the Armarok. Oh, and while we're at it on repeating bosses, Gohma, King Dodongo, Volvagia, Wart, Agahnim.
But hey, the methods for fighting Armogohma, Morpheel and Armarok are entirely different from what they're related to. They're very original. Heck, they could of easily given all of them entirely different names and made them just look like a giant eel and a giant spider and a dragon and nobody would complain. But noooo, you complain because they're a homage/relation to old enemies. Despite the fact that the whole series is full of stuff like that.

[FDL]

Yeah, I guess my main beef is that I was expecting a battle that surpassed the one in TWW, and was ultimately let down. Basically, it’s not as epic, not as fun, and a hell of a lot more broken.

I completely disagree. This one actually felt like a real duel with the chance move and what not. Not only that, but you could defeat Ganondorf in different ways. You had all those sword moves at you disposal but you could choose to use the chance move. TWW's, on the other hand, was basically just waiting for the A button to flash. And that was it. Also, I didn't like that Link, being a little kid, had to get help from Zelda. It's better mano e mano. TWW, IMO, was one of those games where everythig was good, but few things were great. TP had some flaws(lack of NPC-quests), but it had some truly outstanding moments, something TWW lacked overall, IMO.

[Hero of Legend]

Majora would be a person. Majora's Mask has obvious similarities to the Fused Shadows, there's no denying that. And when Majora forms, he also shares many similarities to Zant.

I don't really see any similarities in either of those cases.

I'm fairly sure it was. o.o

I just checked - It's not. Watch for yourself at YouTube or something.

True, but how else could Link fight her? He can't exactly just go and stab her, can he? It's a perfect opportunity to use the Agahnim style of battle. At least she has that awesome triangle attack.

Yeah, I figured that too. Still, physical attacks didn't stop Mario when he fought Shadow Peach, did they?

Well, she does use it... I mean, first you're complaining about too many swordfights (see Ganondorf) and now you're saying there should be more?

I liked the fight with Zant. My beef is with Ganondorf alone.

Except that he appears in the place where Ganon was sealed, and the sword seems very similar to Phantom Ganon's sword (and was also sealed, using sutras).

I thought it looked like something made by the Twili. And you can't deny that the Arbiters' Grounds had a lot of undead, and that the 'flying sword' is a classic ghost boss.

What? Ugly? It was? I don't know what you're talking about, quite frankly.

You can't honestly tell me you thought Ganondorf looked good when Link stabbed him? I mean, you could even see the edges of the polygons in his mouth. That's just bad.

And less epic? No, it wasn't. I loved the final battle of TWW but TP's version, objectively, is no less epic.

I dunno. I do think the ocean falling down around them gave a sense of urgency in TWW. And Ganondorf just never seemed to die in TP, so it felt kinda pointless towards the end. Also, he was a wuss compared to in TWW, where Link couldn't even touch the guy. In TP he just fell over.

One thing I do like about that battle is that only the Master Sword works against Ganondorf. We have heard about it throughout the games, but this is the first time you can see it for yourself.

But noooo, you complain because they're a homage/relation to old enemies. Despite the fact that the whole series is full of stuff like that.

What can I say? The best Zelda game didn't do it (to that extent).

I completely disagree. This one actually felt like a real duel with the chance move and what not. Not only that, but you could defeat Ganondorf in different ways. You had all those sword moves at you disposal but you could choose to use the chance move. TWW's, on the other hand, was basically just waiting for the A button to flash. And that was it.

Which is exactly what the chance move is as well. You wait until the little button flashes, then you mash A, and if you repeat it trice, you get the cheapest final boss victory of any Zelda game.

TWW's final battle was fast and furious. With enough skill and luck, you can beat Ganondorf before the 'second phase' music even starts playing. TP's duel by comparison is slow, boring, and if you will, utterly broken.

Also, I didn't like that Link, being a little kid, had to get help from Zelda.

Best part of TWW right there. Besides, he got help in TP and OoT as well. In TWW it was simply interactive.

TWW, IMO, was one of those games where everythig was good, but few things were great. TP had some flaws(lack of NPC-quests), but it had some truly outstanding moments, something TWW lacked overall, IMO.

Certainly not during any Ganondorf related events.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 January 2007 - 04:59 PM.

[Tekky]

Also, he was a wuss compared to TWW, where Link couldn't even touch the guy. In TP he just fell over.

Lets be fair though; 12 year old kid fighting the King of Evil, or a young man fighting him... Who is going to have the easier time?

Although, Ganondorf in TP *had* taken quite a beating before you even get close to the final stage of battle, what with you kicking his ass as Ganon, Midna having a go at him, Zelda pasting him with Light Arrows and Link giving him a good Master Sword slicing... And he still comes back for a 1 on 1! What can I say, the guy has stamina

[FDL]

You didn't even like the cutscene where he was introduced?