65 replies to this topic

[Sentient]

No, it's not open. You haven't given me any proof for OoT being first, yet you have stablished it as first. Creators intended and still intend (we'll see in TP, though) it to be the SW. It's not open.

It is open, I know from experience that its open. Why should I even need to give you proof of OoT being first? Everyone knows that OoT has been first since its creation, and nothing has contradicted that! Oh, and if you think that using the creators intentions of OoT being the SW (even though their intentions have changed on that subject) to close the SW debate, then I can use the creators intentions of OoT being first to prove OoT is first. I'm using the same logic as you here, so if you argue against me on this point, you are essentially arguing against your own theory. If you'd like me to list the reasons as to why OoT is first, then please do ask.

They have the same name, similar properties and are accessed in the same way. White and in botle.... Milk

Same Name: correct.
Similar Properties: incorrect. The FSA Dark World isn't an evil place full of shadow, it's just a slightly different version of the light world (such as buildings being missing or something), totally different from the ALttP Dark World, which is an evil place full of shadow, and everything is different (sure, things are in the same place, but the things are totally different). Also, if they have similar properties, why do you use Moon Pearls in FSA to open gates to the Dark World, and you keep your shape without the Moon Pearls, but in ALttP, you need a Moon Pearl to keep your shape in the DW?
Accessed in the Same Way: incorrect. In FSA, you use Moon Pearls (lots of them) to open Moon Gates that lead to the FSA Dark World. In ALttP, you use the Magic Mirror and teleporter tiles to access the ALttP Dark World, where you need the Moon Pearl (only one) to keep your original form.

Which happens to be a much smaller and safer assumption than saying OoT is not the SW. Read Davogones' article on it, and I may write something more up to date. But there are no proofs against it. Saying OoT isn not the prequel of ALttP is like saying OoT is not the prequel of TWW. Or even worse.

There are plenty of proofs for OoT not being the SW, but I will not list them, since I do not want to get into another SW debate. I never said that OoT isn't a prequel to ALttP, it's just that TWW is the MAIN sequel to OoT (aside from MM), and ALttP is the secondary sequel to OoT.

I am sorry, I said argument. I forgot to add the "valid" part. Let's see: you have said the Geography argument, that overlooks the similarities between OoT and ALttP map, and the Trident thing, which overlooks that Phantom ganon has it. Did I miss anything?

There are next to no similarities between the OoT and ALttP geography! Have I not already made that clear?! And Phantom Ganon does NOT have a Trident!

Never dare to say Davogones' theories are easy to disprove.+

I dared, and it was easy to disprove.

Now, end of the playtime!!!
Geography Class:

There are two kinds of North, the geogrpahical (or true) one and the Magnetic one, that don't correspond to each other. The first is indicated by the Sun, whil the second is the one the Compass points to.

Do not speak to me like I am some little kid. Anyways, do you really think Nintendo would overcomplicate the maps of Hyrule by bothering about north and true north?

Anyway, unless anyone gives a marvelous proof for FSA>ALttP, I am off. I know when I should retire from a debate, and I think the time is now.

You really know how to wind people up, don't you? I'll give the proof for FSA - ALttP (AGAIN!) if you cannot be bothered to read the evidence that was posted before:

- Incredibly alike geography.
- Thieves move into Lost Woods at the end of FSA, and thieves dwell in Lost Woods in ALttP.
- Frozen Hyrule melted and all that water caused the large swamp in ALttP to appear.
- FSA shows Ganon acquiring the Trident for the FIRST TIME and he wields a Trident in ALttP.
- TWW Hylian is still being used in FSA, but in ALttP, they cannot read it.
- Lost Woods are larger in FSA than in ALttP, and Kakariko is smaller in FSA than in ALttP, which shows that some of the Woods must have been cut down to make new houses.
- Some races from FSA have disappeared by ALttP (which could be accounted to the SW, if you place it between FSA and ALttP).

Need I go on? Just face it Arturo, FSA flows too well into ALttP for it not to be FSA - ALttP.

Two words: common sense

Common sense. One of things that you lack is common sense.

[LionHarted]

Similar Properties: incorrect. The FSA Dark World isn't an evil place full of shadow, it's just a slightly different version of the light world (such as buildings being missing or something), totally different from the ALttP Dark World, which is an evil place full of shadow, and everything is different (sure, things are in the same place, but the things are totally different). Also, if they have similar properties, why do you use Moon Pearls in FSA to open gates to the Dark World, and you keep your shape without the Moon Pearls, but in ALttP, you need a Moon Pearl to keep your shape in the DW?

1) Yes; FSA's Dark World is a "shadowy mirror" of the Light World;
2) ALttP's Dark World is the Sacred Realm, so it'll look more like the Sacred Realm;
3) Moon Pearls can have multiple powers, can they not?

- Frozen Hyrule melted and all that water caused the large swamp in ALttP to appear.

There is a large swamp already from TMC to FSA.

[Sentient]

There is a large swamp already from TMC to FSA.

I know, but the swamp gets bigger between FSA and ALttP, and the melting of Frozen Hyrule would explain this.

[LionHarted]

I know, but the swamp gets bigger between FSA and ALttP, and the melting of Frozen Hyrule would explain this.

Interestingly enough, the same area is frozen in FS.

[Mgoblue201]

Aonuma also said within that same interview at least three times things along the lines of "I'm still new to the series", "I don't really know what we wound up doing in FSA", or "we're still trying to piece together the Zelda storyline."

My point wasn't that Aonuma had a clue of what he was talking about. My point was, people are claiming there's links between FSA and LTTP, but if Aonuma didn't plant them in there with any specific intent, than those links are mere coincidence. If they're mere coincidence than you lose some solid ground to step on, especially if Aonuma decides to put the timeline together and puts FSA in a completely different location within the context of the series.

It is open, I know from experience that its open. Why should I even need to give you proof of OoT being first? Everyone knows that OoT has been first since its creation, and nothing has contradicted that! Oh, and if you think that using the creators intentions of OoT being the SW (even though their intentions have changed on that subject) to close the SW debate, then I can use the creators intentions of OoT being first to prove OoT is first. I'm using the same logic as you here, so if you argue against me on this point, you are essentially arguing against your own theory. If you'd like me to list the reasons as to why OoT is first, then please do ask.

This doesn't make any sense. Being first is a relative thing. Being the Seal War is not. In other words no matter how many games they decide to make the intentions to be the Seal War will be there, evident in OOT. But obviously there's history before OOT. The creation of the Master Sword for instance. The great war. OOT is simply the first story told. And the creators clearly meant OOT first in the context of their timeline at that moment. That's like saying A New Hope is first now, but we're going to make movies that predate that. Well no matter how many more movies they make A New Hope is still a prequel to Empire Strikes Back and tells the story that happens before it.

If you treat OOT as a retelling, uuuhhh, which it is, than it makes sense. There were contradictions (such as the Triforce splitting off, the appearence of Link) when they made OOT the Seal War so that's not a big deal. There has been nothing since that has contradicted OOT as the Seal War. In fact placing it between FSA and LTTP solves very little. It's not improbable that Ganon and the Triforce both end up back in the Sacred Realm sometime between WW and LTTP (in fact I still contend that the Triforce went back on its own, so that leaves only Ganon), and you still have to solve the problem of the Master Sword. Right now there are important questions to be answered, and until they are it's really impossible to tell. We don't know what happened to Ganon. We don't know the state of the Sacred Realm. We don't quite know what happened to Hyrule or the Triforce. And then there's the Master Sword.

But I'll take the improbability of Ganon being sealed away again over the extraordinary improbability of two closely related events happening in such symmetry. Ganon would have to find the pristine Sacred Realm...twice (and then there are the little touches like a gang of thieves, which might allude to the Gerudo). Ganon would have to invade the castle...twice. There are seven sages sealing Ganon away...twice. There are small elements like the tainting of Hyrule. OOT does not once betray the spirit of the story by adding or changing things that would make it seem it's different. The only things it does differently are 1) The entire thing about entering the Sacred Realm with his thieves and slaughtering them 2) the splitting of the Triforce (doesn't implicitely say, but it's definitely implied that the Triforce is intact) and 3) the nature of the attack on the castle. I think there's another one but I can't remember. The major one is Link wielding the Master Sword, but as the creator quotes show they contradicted these facts with the implicit nature of making OOT the Seal War, so it's not like any of that matters. The point is, nowhere in the series do two events so resemble each other. I can't even think of two major events in US history that are like that. No two events involving the same basic structure with the same climate and conditions with some of the same details and elements involve can happen like that.

Really, what are the chances the creators - who, face it, just don't give a damn about this as much as we do - changed it? What are the chances they abide by your timeline? What are the chances that they'd actually make a separate Seal War and put it between FSA (contradicting Aonuma also) and LTTP? Aonuma said he hadn't quite thought about it and put it all together yet. Somehow I doubt the Seal War would change now. Nintendo just ain't big on doing things like that. We know their line. Storyline ain't as big as gameplay. They're not going to sweat it if things don't perfectly align.

[CID Farwin]

Do not speak to me like I am some little kid.

You will get responses based on your actions. And tone.

Look closely at the compass rose:
"is this a dagger I see before me?" wait, no, it's an ARROW pointing NORTHWEST! The north of ALttP, no less.

OoT & ALttP Map Differences:
- One Death Mountain peak in OoT, two Death Mountain peaks in ALttP

- One Death Mountain peak in OoT, One area shrouded in cloud at the location of ALttP's second peak.

- Lake is to the south-west in OoT, Lake is to the south-east in ALttP
- Desert in the west in OoT, desert in the south-west in ALttP

- Map is tilted 45 degrees.

- Hyrule Castle to the north in OoT, Hyrule Castle in the centre in ALttP

- Tower on right peak of Death Mountain in FSA, tower on left peak in ALttP

These two pretty much cancel out, being the same inconsistency. i.e. moved building.

- Kakariko Village in the east in OoT, Kakariko Village in the west in ALttP

- Kakariko Village in ALttP's at the same spot of OoT's Hyrule castle town market.

- Land of hyrule, surrounded by mountains and forests in OoT and ALttP, surrounded by...WATER in FSA.

Final Tally:
OoT: 1 major building inconsistency, 0 geographical inconsistencies
FSA: 1 major building inconsistency, 3 geographical inconsistencies

There are plenty of proofs for OoT not being the SW, but I will not list them,

I think you're gonna have to.

as for the trident:

And the style is not canonic AT ALL.

And that's all.

On Earth, sure. That's not nessessarily true for Hyrule.

Do I really have to say that Hyrule has the same physical laws as Earth unless mentioned specifically or alluded to in canon?

Edited by CID Farwin, 21 November 2006 - 07:31 PM.