65 replies to this topic

[Chaltab]

The Trident must have been wielded by a previous Ganon: either the ALttP one or the OoX one. I would prefer the OoX one, because he shares the desire of destruction with the FSA one, something the ALttP one does not have. Also, the OoX Ganon had nothing to do with Ganondorf, unlike the ALttP one. This would explain why Ganondorf is reincarnated in FSA separated from his "pig" form.

Okay, my save data in Oracle of Seasons fell victim to a save-battery glitch, so I'm not certain on this... But I was under the impression that Ganon in Oracle was essentially a raging beast because the plot to bring him back involved sacrificing Zelda, and Link prevented that sacrifice--hence only 'part' of Ganon's mind, his rage, was made manifest.

[Fyxe]

The Palace of the Four Sword on the GBA version of ALttP was added as a bonus gameplay feature, and isn't (at least at ZU) considered canon or as evidence in theories.

Here, we don't care about ZU's little 'ground rules' that everyone agrees on. Nobody has any right to say it's uncanon because there is no evidence to suggest it's uncanon. Being a bonus feature does not make anything uncanon.

Yet they're called "Squirrels".

No they're not. Who calls them that? Nobody calls them that. They're not squirrels, and they're not Gorons. They ALSO appear in FSA seperately from Gorons. They are merely enemies called 'Deadrock/Deadroks' when translated from their Japanese name.

The only squirrels in ALttP are the obvious ones in the Lost Woods. And the Gorons are not around.

I would prefer the OoX one, because he shares the desire of destruction with the FSA one, something the ALttP one does not have. Also, the OoX Ganon had nothing to do with Ganondorf, unlike the ALttP one. This would explain why Ganondorf is reincarnated in FSA separated from his "pig" form.

Not necessarily. Ganon in FSA speaks very much like he does in ALttP. He doesn't speak in such a empty, mindless manner. And the Ganon in FSA is tied to Ganondorf, just like Ganon in ALttP. While Ganon was not resurrected, Ganondorf was 'reincarnated' or reborn seperately.

It could be either of them, to be honest, but due to all the connections to ALttP in style and theme, I'd say it was Ganon from ALttP (who is the same Ganon and trident in the Oracle games ANYWAY, so meh).

Edited by Fyxe, 14 November 2006 - 05:56 PM.

[LionHarted]

Look, when Ganondorf obtained the Trident in FSA, he became Ganon, the King of Darkness. This is hardly a coincidence.

When Ganondorf obtained the Triforce in the SW/OoT he became the King of Evil (as the ALttP manual puts it, Ganon was "born" at this time). This is also not a coincidence. It seems to suggest that Ganon, the demon, inhabits a human form when that human obtains immense dark power. I would argue that the demon Ganon is literally created from Ganondorf's attempted wish for power on the Triforce in OoT (as the ALttP manual suggests): "The strength of the Triforce of Power enabled him to become a mighty, evil king, but his dark ambitions were not satisfied."

Ganon's essence was in the Trident, and that power is nothing more than Ganon's power.

Actually, it is suggested that the spirit of Ganon exists within the Magic Trident. How it got there is a matter unknown.

In OoT he created that weapon and gave it to his Phantom (also the horse, that might not be the "real" one) or maybe he just had it from before, as the horse.

Oh? Given the above statement, Ganondorf himself would have to wield the Trident to transform into Ganon the demon, yet he does not do so in Oot, despite his transformation in the final battle.

The Trident must have been wielded by a previous Ganon: either the ALttP one or the OoX one.

Why?

Also, the OoX Ganon had nothing to do with Ganondorf, unlike the ALttP one.

Actually, Ganon in OoX is explicitly called "Gerudo King."

Those portals don't go to the Chamber of sages. At least not ONLY to the CoS. I will show you why
[...]The evil power radiates from the temples of Hyrule. But there was no evil in the Chamber of Sages. The portals must also be a portal to other parts of the Sacred Realm. And the bosses were there because Ganon put them, they were neither before him, nor after him.

Why do the boss portals have to be the portals through which darkness was entering Hyrule? Why can't the power just have gathered in the temples, then radiated from them, after having taken them over?

The incredibly similar geography shows you that FSA comes before ALttP?

The identical landmarks, such as the Eastern and Desert Palaces, and the western Kakariko village, are, well... identical. They also didn't exist in OoT.

There was a long uninterrumpted time of peace between the Seal War and ALttP.

"Interrupted" was added by you. It says that "several centuries have passed since the Seal War. Hyrule was in a time of peace." As in, several centuries have passed since the Seal War, and Hyrule is in a time of peace. Any number of events or breaks in that peace can occur in between the two. The important thing is NOW, several centuries after, there is peace.

Being a bonus feature does not make anything uncanon.

Considering it's a post-game quest unconnected to the main story and unrequired, we can render it uncanon, like TWW's second quest.

Edited by LionHarted, 15 November 2006 - 10:09 AM.

[Sentient]

Ganondorf could lend the Trident to his Phantom and take it back later, in time for the final fight. There he wields two swords which look like a transfiguration of the Trident. My theory includes that a rest of Ganon's spirit from Oracles remained in the Trident, for the first time giving it the great power that it has by the time of FSA. This explains why it wasn't that powerful in OoT.

But why would Ganondorf even lend Phantom Ganon the Trident? Does he give Volvagia a weapon? Does he give Morpha a weapon? Does he give Bongo Bongo a weapon? The answer to all of these is no, so what makes Phantom Ganon so special? I do not believe in the whole Ganon's spirit is in the Trident business, but I do believe that Ganon was destined to find that Trident in FSA. And why would Ganon's spirit being within the Trident make it more powerful? The most he'd be able to do is take advantage of the powers it already has.

I don't find FSA's and ALttP's geography more similar than OoT's and ALttP's geography are similar. Of course, between both couples there are big resemblances, but judging by geography, FSA might provide a link between OoT and ALttP just as well as ALttP might provide a link between OoT and FSA.

...

You think the geographical similarities between OoT and ALttP are greater than between FSA and ALttP? Let's look at the maps:

OoT:


FSA:


ALttP:


OoT & ALttP Map Similarities:
- Death Mountain to the north
- Water source in the north-east

OoT & ALttP Map Differences:
- One Death Mountain peak in OoT, two Death Mountain peaks in ALttP
- Lake is to the south-west in OoT, Lake is to the south-east in ALttP
- Desert in the west in OoT, desert in the south-west in ALttP
- Hyrule Castle to the north in OoT, Hyrule Castle in the centre in ALttP
- Kakariko Village in the east in OoT, Kakariko Village in the west in ALttP


FSA & ALttP Map Similarities:
- Death Mountain to the north with two peaks
- Desert in the south-west
- Swampy area south of Hyrule Castle
- Hyrule Castle in the centre
- Kakariko Village in the east
- Source of water towards the north of Hyrule
- Eastern Palace in the east
- Lost Woods to the north
- River flows around Hyrule Castle

FSA & ALttP Map Differences:
- Village and foresty area in FSA, Lake Hylian in ALttP
- Tower on right peak of Death Mountain in FSA, tower on left peak in ALttP
- Lost Woods larger in FSA than in ALttP

As you can see Jumbie, there is much more similarity between the FSA and ALttP maps that between the OoT and ALttP maps.

Look, when Ganondorf obtained the Trident in FSA, he became Ganon, the King of Darkness. This is hardly a coincidence.

Absolutely right.

Ganon's essence was in the Trident, and that power is nothing more than Ganon's power. In OoT he created that weapon and gave it to his Phantom (also the horse, that might not be the "real" one) or maybe he just had it from before, as the horse.

Proof?

If the essence of the King of Darkness was inside the Trident, and this is confirmed by this quote:

Not quite confirmed. It depends on your interpretation of that quote. I see it as the one who wields the Trident will become the King of Darkness. But Ganondorf was destined to wield it, although that was clearly not the intention when the Trident and inscription were made.

The Trident must have been wielded by a previous Ganon: either the ALttP one or the OoX one. I would prefer the OoX one, because he shares the desire of destruction with the FSA one, something the ALttP one does not have. Also, the OoX Ganon had nothing to do with Ganondorf, unlike the ALttP one. This would explain why Ganondorf is reincarnated in FSA separated from his "pig" form.

The FSA, ALttP and OoX Ganon are the same. FSA shows Ganon acquiring the Trident that he wields in ALttP and OoX, ALttP shows his death, and the Oracles show his attempted resurrection. And the reason Ganon was such a mad beast in the Oracles is because his resurrection was only partly completed.

The incredibly similar geography shows you that FSA comes before ALttP? Does it not show you just that it hasn't changed much between them? And also, the maps of OoT and ALttP are even more similar, but you keep saying it's a New Hyrule. Geography is hardly a proof.

Yes, it does show that not much has changed between them, meaning that they go next to each other in the timline. I've already addressed the issue of OoT and FSA being more similar than FSA and ALttP (see above).

There cannot be any games between ALttP and OoT (except for MM) because, as the manual said:

There was a long uninterrumpted time of peace between the Seal War and ALttP. That doesn't fit well with a flood, the return of the King of Darkness and all that stuff. And don't say OoT is not the SW, because it was stated, by Satory Takizawa, the character designer of OoT:

That entirely depends on your stance of where the Seal War is placed. I do not deny that OoT is a Seal War, but not the one spoke of in the ALttP manual. But I'd rather avoid SW discussion, since I've had enough of it to last me a lifetime, and I'm sure no one else here wants to see another long Seal War debate. Also, the first part of the timeline has been confirmed as OoT-MM-TP-TWW-PH, so that quote you brought up is invalid.

And about the Gorons and Gerudos, those races had not been invented by then. Did you expect them to appear?

You mentioned the ALttP remake on the GBA, so why didn't they include the Gerudo and Gorons if Ninty were changing it to fit with more recent races?

Here, we don't care about ZU's little 'ground rules' that everyone agrees on. Nobody has any right to say it's uncanon because there is no evidence to suggest it's uncanon. Being a bonus feature does not make anything uncanon.

But on the same token, nobody has any right to say that the PotFS is canon.

No they're not. Who calls them that? Nobody calls them that. They're not squirrels, and they're not Gorons. They ALSO appear in FSA seperately from Gorons. They are merely enemies called 'Deadrock/Deadroks' when translated from their Japanese name.

The only squirrels in ALttP are the obvious ones in the Lost Woods. And the Gorons are not around.

Thanks for saying that those things on Death Mountain in ALttP aren't Gorons. Actually, those things appear on the ground in FSA, not on Death Mountain. So maybe when the Gorons died/fled between FSA and ALttP, those things moved onto the mountain in the Gorons place.

Not necessarily. Ganon in FSA speaks very much like he does in ALttP. He doesn't speak in such a empty, mindless manner. And the Ganon in FSA is tied to Ganondorf, just like Ganon in ALttP. While Ganon was not resurrected, Ganondorf was 'reincarnated' or reborn seperately.

It could be either of them, to be honest, but due to all the connections to ALttP in style and theme, I'd say it was Ganon from ALttP (who is the same Ganon and trident in the Oracle games ANYWAY, so meh).

Here's some extra proof of Ganon in FSA, ALttP and OoX being the same:

FSA Ganon:


ALttP Ganon:


OoX Ganon:


Notice that throughout the games, Ganon wears incredibly similar armour, which gradually develops. In FSA, he has his basic armour, in ALttP, he has a skull necklace, and in OoX he has spikes on his shoulderpads and a skull necklace.

Edited by ZeldaGamer21, 16 November 2006 - 02:45 AM.

[Arturo]

But why would Ganondorf even lend Phantom Ganon the Trident? Does he give Volvagia a weapon? Does he give Morpha a weapon? Does he give Bongo Bongo a weapon? The answer to all of these is no, so what makes Phantom Ganon so special? I do not believe in the whole Ganon's spirit is in the Trident business, but I do believe that Ganon was destined to find that Trident in FSA. And why would Ganon's spirit being within the Trident make it more powerful? The most he'd be able to do is take advantage of the powers it already has.

Because it's his Phantom, a part of his essence. Therefore it must have the characteristical weapon of Ganon. It's also noteworthy that it's Phantom Ganon, and not Phatntom Ganondorf. And the spirit of the King of Darkness is in the Trident. It's just a matter of believing canon. My theory is: Ganondorf gets the ToP, that makes him the King of Evil/Darkness. Then he's sealed and killed in ALttP. Twinrohva attempt to resurrect the Gerudo King, Ganondorf, but only resurrect the raging beast, with no bit of brain, Ganon. He's immediately killed, anmd somehow, the Trident makes its way to the Pyramid, where it stays until FSA. Ganondorf is reincarnatyed as a normal Gerudo,. while the Ganon essence, the King of Darkness, remins in the Trident. When Ganondorf touches the Trident, man and beast unite again: it still has the intelligence of Ganondorf, but has the same thirst for blood of the OoX raging beast.

And there is no reason to believe the Trident of Phantom Ganon is not the same, that would be denying visuals.

You think the geographical similarities between OoT and ALttP are greater than between FSA and ALttP?
OoT & FSA Map Similarities:
- Death Mountain to the north
- Water source in the east
- Foresty area in the east

OoT & FSA Map Differences:
- One Death Mountain peak in OoT, two Death Mountain peaks in FSA
- River runs to Lake Hylia in OoT, river runs into sea in FSA
- Desert in the west in OoT, desert in the south-west in FSA
- Hyrule Castle to the north in OoT, Hyrule Castle in the centre in FSA
- Kakariko Village in the east in OoT, Kakariko Village in the west in FSA
FSA & ALttP Map Similarities:
- Death Mountain to the north with two peaks
- Desert in the south-west
- Swampy area south of Hyrule Castle
- Hyrule Castle in the centre
- Kakariko Village in the east
- Source of water towards the north of Hyrule
- Eastern Palace in the east
- Lost Woods to the north
- River flows around Hyrule Castle

FSA & ALttP Map Differences:
- Village and foresty area in FSA, Lake Hylian in ALttP
- Tower on right peak of Death Mountain in FSA, tower on left peak in ALttP
- Lost Woods larger in FSA than in ALttP

As you can see Jumbie, there is much more similarity between the FSA and ALttP maps that between the OoT and FSA maps.

No, he asked you why OoT and ALttP Hyrule are so similar. Not FSA and OoT, but OoT and ALttP. Basically OoT, is a 3D ALttP.

Proof?

The Trident first appeared in OoT. It may have either been created by Ganondorf, or was an ancient treasure of the Gerudos. I prefer the first possibility, but it's a matter of tastes, really.

Not quite confirmed. It depends on your interpretation of that quote. I see it as the one who wields the Trident will become the King of Darkness. But Ganondorf was destined to wield it, although that was clearly not the intention when the Trident and inscription were made.

No, it speaks about the "ancient spirit of magic trident" and in FSA he is an ancient demon reborn. It's a clear implication that that "ancient spirit" and that "ancient demon" are the same one.

The FSA, ALttP and OoX Ganon are the same. FSA shows Ganon acquiring the Trident that he wields in ALttP and OoX, ALttP shows his death, and the Oracles show his attempted resurrection. And the reason Ganon was such a mad beast in the Oracles is because his resurrection was only partly completed.

Proof? You have given no proof for them being the same one. And yes, I know it's because of it. It's just a nice parallel.. or maybe not

That entirely depends on your stance of where the Seal War is placed. I do not deny that OoT is a Seal War, but not the one spoke of in the ALttP manual. But I'd rather avoid SW discussion, since I've had enough of it to last me a lifetime, and I'm sure no one else here wants to see another long Seal War debate. Also, the first part of the timeline has been confirmed as OoT-MM-TP-TWW-PH, so that quote you brought up is invalid.

It's not a good way of proving your points ignoring all its inconsistencies. But it's up to you.

You mentioned the ALttP remake on the GBA, so why didn't they include the Gerudo and Gorons if Ninty were changing it to fit with more recent races?

Because they didn't make a new game. They just did a new translation and added a fewe bonuses. And where would you put Gerudos and Gorons? That would actually change a lot the game.

But on the same token, nobody has any right to say that the PotFS is canon.

Nope. It's in the game, so it MUST be canon, unless there is a reason not to believe it. Not the other way round.

Here's some extra proof of Ganon in FSA, ALttP and OoX being the same:

Link looks the same in all games. Does that make him the same? NO

Edited by Arturo, 15 November 2006 - 03:52 PM.

[Chaltab]

Because it's his Phantom, a part of his essence. Therefore it must have the characteristical weapon of Ganon.

But if OOT was indeed the first game chronologically to include Ganon, then there would technically be no Ganon that a 'characteristic weapon' could exist for. Ganondorf treats Phantom Ganon as a worthless puppet, just a doppleganger sent to frighten Link; when it loses, the throws it into the void between dimensions. If it contained some of his essence, I doubt he'd do that. Subsequent Phantom Ganons, like the ones scene in TWW, resemble Ganondorf even less and weild swords.

I don't think the fact it has a Trident is anything more than an nod to ALTTP, and the fact that it's "Ganon" and not "Ganondorf" is probably to avoid having to crunch the text to make it fit.

[Sentient]

Because it's his Phantom, a part of his essence. Therefore it must have the characteristical weapon of Ganon. It's also noteworthy that it's Phantom Ganon, and not Phatntom Ganondorf. And the spirit of the King of Darkness is in the Trident. It's just a matter of believing canon.

Is there proof that the spirit of the King of Darkness within the Trident? You are basing that off of a quote that the Red Maiden read from a stone tablet. That quote is open to many interpretations, so nothing says that your interpretation of it is right, and nothing says my interpretation of it is right either. Also, the Maiden seemed to have difficulty reading it, so she may have misread some of it, so we must take that into consideration aswell.

My theory is: Ganondorf gets the ToP, that makes him the King of Evil/Darkness. Then he's sealed and killed in ALttP. Twinrohva attempt to resurrect the Gerudo King, Ganondorf, but only resurrect the raging beast, with no bit of brain, Ganon. He's immediately killed, anmd somehow, the Trident makes its way to the Pyramid, where it stays until FSA. Ganondorf is reincarnatyed as a normal Gerudo,. while the Ganon essence, the King of Darkness, remins in the Trident. When Ganondorf touches the Trident, man and beast unite again: it still has the intelligence of Ganondorf, but has the same thirst for blood of the OoX raging beast.

Why would Ganon acquire the Trident in ALttP, when FSA makes it much more obvious that it's in FSA when Ganon firsts acquires the Trident? I have a theory about the Trident, it's creation, and why it is in the pyramid. I may post it here shortly, but for now, if you want to see it, click on the link in my signature that says "The Zuna".

About his spirit being within the Trident. I do not think that when he dies, his spirit stays within the Trident, but his spirit wanders the earth, powerless, until it can once again manifest itself in a physical body. I think that after Ganondorf's death in TWW, his spirit left his body, and when the Gerudo came back to Hyrule around FSA, Ganon's spirit inserted itself within another Gerudo male. Of course, for that to work, you must have a timeline that has TWW before FSA, with no games featuring Ganon in between the two (like the Wise Men have).

And there is no reason to believe the Trident of Phantom Ganon is not the same, that would be denying visuals.

And there is no reason to believe that the Trident of Phantom Ganon is the same either.

No, he asked you why OoT and ALttP Hyrule are so similar. Not FSA and OoT, but OoT and ALttP. Basically OoT, is a 3D ALttP.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've edited my post, and there are fewer similarities between OoT and ALttP than there were between OoT and FSA. Cheers for helping me prove my point (that isn't sarcastic or anything, I really do thank you for pointing it out).

The Trident first appeared in OoT. It may have either been created by Ganondorf, or was an ancient treasure of the Gerudos. I prefer the first possibility, but it's a matter of tastes, really.

Again, the Trident Phantom Ganon wields is very unlikely to be the Trident of Power. I personally believe that the Trident of Power is a Zuna creation. Click on "The Zuna" in my sig to see why I think this.

Proof? You have given no proof for them being the same one.

Not much proof is needed. Simple common sense tells us they are the same. FSA shows the acquiring of the Trident that Ganon has in ALttP. AlttP shows the death of Ganon, and the Oracles show his attempted resurrection. To be resurrected you must be dead, and Ganon dies in ALttP, and since FSA shows the acquiring of the Trident, common sense says that the Ganon in FSA, ALttP and OoX are the same, and that the games go in that order. Also, I did provide some proof, just look at the bottom of my previous post.

It's not a good way of proving your points ignoring all its inconsistencies. But it's up to you.

All I said was that I'd rather not discuss the SW.

Because they didn't make a new game. They just did a new translation and added a fewe bonuses. And where would you put Gerudos and Gorons? That would actually change a lot the game.

You'd put the Gerudo in the desert, and the Gorons on Death Mountain. And they wouldn't change that much. All they'd do is give the desert some life and give the mountain some intelligent inhabitants (aside from the old man).

Nope. It's in the game, so it MUST be canon, unless there is a reason not to believe it. Not the other way round.

You said yourself, when they remade ALttP, all they did was change a bit of text and add a few bonuses. The PotFS is one of those bonuses.

Link looks the same in all games. Does that make him the same? NO

Ganon doesn't look the same in all the games though, does he? And Link doesn't look the same in every game either. There are some slight alterations in the colour of his tunic and whether he has sleeves and stuff.

[LionHarted]

Because it's his Phantom, a part of his essence.

Actually, this is wrong. Phantom Ganon is an "evil spirit from beyond."

[Chaltab]

Actually, this is wrong. Phantom Ganon is an "evil spirit from beyond."

Right. I think Phantom Ganon was just a spectre createdto look like Ganondorf in full armor just to frighten Link, unnerve him.

[Arturo]

Is there proof that the spirit of the King of Darkness within the Trident? You are basing that off of a quote that the Red Maiden read from a stone tablet. That quote is open to many interpretations, so nothing says that your interpretation of it is right, and nothing says my interpretation of it is right either. Also, the Maiden seemed to have difficulty reading it, so she may have misread some of it, so we must take that into consideration aswell.

That quote is not that open to speculation. If it says "evil spirit of the magic trident" there must be an evil spirit in the Trident. And since Ganondorf transforms in Ganon when he touches it, it's a safe assumption that spirit is Ganon, who is said in FSA to be an ancient Demon Reborn. If you say she didn't read it right it's your choice. But generally it is better to stick to the canon we have, instead of looking for interpretation that, at best, bend it.

Why would Ganon acquire the Trident in ALttP, when FSA makes it much more obvious that it's in FSA when Ganon firsts acquires the Trident? I have a theory about the Trident, it's creation, and why it is in the pyramid. I may post it here shortly, but for now, if you want to see it, click on the link in my signature that says "The Zuna".

He doesn't acquire it before ALttP. HE HAS IT. After he loses it because of death, he is reincarnated, and gets it back. It's much more logical. Or maybe obvious for you means "something that contradicts canon"... I don't know...

About his spirit being within the Trident. I do not think that when he dies, his spirit stays within the Trident, but his spirit wanders the earth, powerless, until it can once again manifest itself in a physical body. I think that after Ganondorf's death in TWW, his spirit left his body, and when the Gerudo came back to Hyrule around FSA, Ganon's spirit inserted itself within another Gerudo male. Of course, for that to work, you must have a timeline that has TWW before FSA, with no games featuring Ganon in between the two (like the Wise Men have).

Then why would he manifest once Ganopndorf gets the Trident? There is a clear relation between Ganon and the Trident, it's not a cassuality. The one who touches the Trident gets the Title King of Darkness, which happens to be the main title of Ganon.

Also,k in FSA, Ganon is an ancient Demon reborn, while in ALttP it says:

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

Do you really think they would say so if there had been another Ganon between the Seal War and ALttP?

The answer is not open. it's NO

And there is no reason to believe that the Trident of Phantom Ganon is the same either.

Apart from the fact they blatantly look the same, there is none. Nornmally when you see two weapond that look the very same, one has to givev reasons. Note that the Trident of FSA doesn't look like the one in ALttP, but like Phantom Ganon's one. This is a clear reference.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've edited my post, and there are fewer similarities between OoT and ALttP than there were between OoT and FSA. Cheers for helping me prove my point (that isn't sarcastic or anything, I really do thank you for pointing it out).

You are welcome...

Geogrpahy is hardly a point. If Geogrpahy had significance in Storyline, TMC would be a long time after or before any games, because its geography is very diffrent. oUnless you want to say that After the Flood, a New Hyrule is discovered (or is dried, choose whatever you want) at first it doesn't lok like the one of OoT, but when time passes it starts changing to look more and more like in OoT, then FASA and ALttP take place.... Really logical, indeed.

Not much proof is needed. Simple common sense tells us they are the same. FSA shows the acquiring of the Trident that Ganon has in ALttP. AlttP shows the death of Ganon, and the Oracles show his attempted resurrection. To be resurrected you must be dead, and Ganon dies in ALttP, and since FSA shows the acquiring of the Trident, common sense says that the Ganon in FSA, ALttP and OoX are the same, and that the games go in that order. Also, I did provide some proof, just look at the bottom of my previous post.

You have a strange definition of common sense.. if common sense means "what goes against canon without using proofs", then, it's common sense. I don't say it's wrong (oh, well I do, that's why I have given proofs against it) I just want to see proofs. What is your conception more logical than saying that after he died in ALttP, mand the attempt to resurrect him in OoX, Ganondorf reincarnates as a normal Gerudo and when he retrieves the magic trident he had in the past, he joins again with his pig form and becomes Ganon once again.

Both theories are exactly equally logical The only difference is that mine doesn't contradict canon (unless you prove me wrong, then I'll be glad to recognize it, you know, I am not in the possesion of truth) and explains more things, for example why he became Ganon after touching teh Trident.

All I said was that I'd rather not discuss the SW.

It's ok. I respect your decission. It might be just a matter of tastes...

You'd put the Gerudo in the desert, and the Gorons on Death Mountain. And they wouldn't change that much. All they'd do is give the desert some life and give the mountain some intelligent inhabitants (aside from the old man).

And the former hostile regions of Desert of Mistery and Death Mountain will become full of friendly people. Well done.

You said yourself, when they remade ALttP, all they did was change a bit of text and add a few bonuses. The PotFS is one of those bonuses.

Bonus=/= Non canonic

Saying every bonus is not canon would mean FS is not canon, or the Legend of the Fairy, or half the islands of TWW...

Ganon doesn't look the same in all the games though, does he? And Link doesn't look the same in every game either. There are some slight alterations in the colour of his tunic and whether he has sleeves and stuff.

Those are minor things. But note how the FSA Trident looks like the Trident in OoT. A cassualitry? I don't think so.

And about the Phantom... Ganondorf says

But you have defeated only my phantom...

It's his phantom, so it must have something that makes him his phantom, taht is, a small part of his essence.

Edited by Arturo, 16 November 2006 - 02:18 PM.

[Sentient]

That quote is not that open to speculation. If it says "evil spirit of the magic trident" there must be an evil spirit in the Trident. And since Ganondorf transforms in Ganon when he touches it, it's a safe assumption that spirit is Ganon, who is said in FSA to be an ancient Demon Reborn. If you say she didn't read it right it's your choice. But generally it is better to stick to the canon we have, instead of looking for interpretation that, at best, bend it.

It is open to plenty of speculation. And it actually says "Evil...spirit of magic trident.". The Trident of Power gives its wielder immense power, just like the Triforce of Power. Ganondorf probably used the Trident to transform into Ganon instead of the Triforce of Power. Ganon desires power, and the Trident could give him that, that's why he took it and transformed into Ganon.

He doesn't acquire it before ALttP. HE HAS IT. After he loses it because of death, he is reincarnated, and gets it back. It's much more logical. Or maybe obvious for you means "something that contradicts canon"... I don't know...

Well if HE HAS IT in ALttP, then he must have acquired it before ALttP, and FSA fits that perfectly. And your view is not much more logical. FSA makes it clear enough that it's a prequel to ALttP, and to deny that is to ignore a LOT of things. FSA = prequel to ALttP. We see Ganon acquiring the Trident in FSA, and he also has the Trident in ALttP. If you'd like me to list the reasons as to why FSA is before ALttP again, just say so.

Then why would he manifest once Ganopndorf gets the Trident? There is a clear relation between Ganon and the Trident, it's not a cassuality. The one who touches the Trident gets the Title King of Darkness, which happens to be the main title of Ganon.

I didn't mean that at all. I meant that Ganon's spirit manifests itself within the body of this new Ganondorf BEFORE he's evil. Ganon's spirit being inside him turns him into an evil man, who grows up with a corrupted heart and goes in search of the Trident. Evidence to support this is this quote from FSA:

Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price.

Ganondorf's heart became more evil each year. This supports my belief that Ganon's spirit immersed itself within Ganondorf in FSA.

Apart from the fact they blatantly look the same, there is none. Nornmally when you see two weapond that look the very same, one has to givev reasons. Note that the Trident of FSA doesn't look like the one in ALttP, but like Phantom Ganon's one. This is a clear reference.

Oh really? Let's look:



This Trident is blatantly of Gerudo design, since it bears the trademark orange gem set into blue stone. The Trident is long and thin, and the two side prongs on it point out sideways a lot.



This Trident is of unknown design. It's much shorter than Phantom Ganon's Trident, and the red jewel it has is much different and set in a different place than Phantom Ganon's Trident jewel. Also, the side prongs point towards the main prong.

Conclusion: Not the same.

Geogrpahy is hardly a point. If Geogrpahy had significance in Storyline, TMC would be a long time after or before any games, because its geography is very diffrent. oUnless you want to say that After the Flood, a New Hyrule is discovered (or is dried, choose whatever you want) at first it doesn't lok like the one of OoT, but when time passes it starts changing to look more and more like in OoT, then FASA and ALttP take place.... Really logical, indeed.

Geography is a point. Geography doesn't have that much significance on storyline, but it does have significance when placing games in a timeline. And your right, TMC is a while before and after games. TMC is a while after TWW, and TMC is a while before FS. Haven't I already proven my point? The geography of FSA and ALttP do not bare resemblance to the geography of OoT. Just look at my post with the map comparisons in and see how little resemblance there is.

You have a strange definition of common sense.. if common sense means "what goes against canon without using proofs", then, it's common sense. I don't say it's wrong (oh, well I do, that's why I have given proofs against it) I just want to see proofs. What is your conception more logical than saying that after he died in ALttP, mand the attempt to resurrect him in OoX, Ganondorf reincarnates as a normal Gerudo and when he retrieves the magic trident he had in the past, he joins again with his pig form and becomes Ganon once again.

Both theories are exactly equally logical The only difference is that mine doesn't contradict canon (unless you prove me wrong, then I'll be glad to recognize it, you know, I am not in the possesion of truth) and explains more things, for example why he became Ganon after touching teh Trident.

What is this canon that I seem to keep going against? That quote from the Red Maiden reading the inscription? I already said that is open to interpretation, and could have been misread by the Maiden. Plus, that canon is only "contradicted" if your interpretation of that quote is the true interpretation. Since it's not, I can't be going against the canon. And it also depends on your placement of FSA.

Those are minor things. But note how the FSA Trident looks like the Trident in OoT. A cassualitry? I don't think so.

But note that the FSA Trident looks NOTHING like the Trident in OoT, apart from that they're both Tridents.

It's his phantom, so it must have something that makes him his phantom, taht is, a small part of his essence.

I wake up in the morning and put on MY clothes. Does that mean the clothes are a small part of my essence? No. I just own them, they are possessions, hence they're MINE. Phantom Ganon is a possession of Ganondorf, hence it is his and belongs to him, hence why he calls it his phantom.

[MikePetersSucks]

And it looks like him, which is the only thing that makes it Phantom Ganon in the first place.

[Mgoblue201]

The problem with this argument is that Aonuma claimed that he believed the Four Swords games were the oldest tales. You can give me that we have to go by what is in the games and not by what the creators say (which I don't agree with anyway). But how do you use in game evidence that supposedly links one game to another when Aonuma clearly didn't put those in there to be a link?

Now keep in mind I haven't played FSA, but I do know its story. There seems to be two big pieces of evidence uesd here, perhaps more. For one thing I've always contended that using geography is ludicrous, at least as anything more than supplemental evidence. And even then, you can't rely on it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Nintendo built the geography with another game in mind, and according to Aonuma...uh, he didn't. But even if we look at it, the entire eastern side has no relation to LTTP. Ice area, water hole, no Lake Hylia (by the way Kakariko is in the west in LTTP)...and while the Death Mountain is split into two, it more closely resembles OOT's volcano. I don't trust geography at all.

And then there's the trident itself, which if that is it looks nothing like the one in LTTP. In fact it more closely reminds me of OOT's weapons. LTTP had more of the typical Satan trident. OOT has the two branching prongs that angle out and in and the diamond shaped blade. That's quite a bit like OOT's, although OOT had longer blades. But I don't believe LTTP's trident was ever given a name. The fact is, Ganon has had a three pronged weapon in many games. The connection here is dubious.

And that quote never even gives the allusion that Ganon immerses himself with Ganondorf. A bad guy becoming more and more evil is used in just about every videogame ever. Not to mention most people aren't usually born completely evil. They become enveloped by power and greed over time. Not good evidence.

But getting back to Aonuma, if he didn't design the games with these connections in mind than how can we conclude they're anything more than accidental? We're basing this off of accidental proof. Hell, judging by all the times I mentioned OOT in this post you could almost link it with FSA and still go by with what Aonuma said. I'm not going to do that, but all this heeping mounds of evidence can just as easily point a different way too.

I would get into the nature of Ganon and Ganondorf, but I fear that's meant for another post.

[LionHarted]

The problem with this argument is that Aonuma claimed that he believed the Four Swords games were the oldest tales.

Aonuma also said within that same interview at least three times things along the lines of "I'm still new to the series", "I don't really know what we wound up doing in FSA", or "we're still trying to piece together the Zelda storyline."

And the weapon Phantom Ganon wields in OoT is not a Trident. Tridents have to be pronged, like a fork. PG's weapon is not pronged. It's bladed, and there are three blades, but they're not pronged blades. PG wields a halbert, not a trident.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 08:04 AM.

[Arturo]

Well if HE HAS IT in ALttP, then he must have acquired it before ALttP, and FSA fits that perfectly. And your view is not much more logical. FSA makes it clear enough that it's a prequel to ALttP, and to deny that is to ignore a LOT of things. FSA = prequel to ALttP. We see Ganon acquiring the Trident in FSA, and he also has the Trident in ALttP. If you'd like me to list the reasons as to why FSA is before ALttP again, just say so.

FSA is not a prequeld of ALttP. ALttP has only a prequel and its name is OoT. I will give you some reasons why FSA can't come between OoT and ALttP:
-In OoT, there is no indication of Ganon being reborn, neither there is in ALttP, where it's explictly stated that ganon was born in the Seal War. They say nothing about a second birth of Ganon.
-In ALttP, the descendants of the Sages know about Ganon, and the Seal War, while the Red Maiden has never heard the name of the "original" Ganon, but just the one who is still living.
-In OoT the Dark World is corrupted. So it is in ALttP. But in FSA isn't.
-In OoT, Ganon is sealed in teh Sacred Realm/Dark World. In ALttP he's still in the Sacred Realm/Dark World. But in FSA he isn't.
-In OoT Phantom Ganon has the Trident. So does Ganon in ALttP and Oracles. But in FSA he doesn't.

I would think of more, but I think those are enough.

I didn't mean that at all. I meant that Ganon's spirit manifests itself within the body of this new Ganondorf BEFORE he's evil. Ganon's spirit being inside him turns him into an evil man, who grows up with a corrupted heart and goes in search of the Trident. Evidence to support this is this quote from FSA:

Ganondorf's heart became more evil each year. This supports my belief that Ganon's spirit immersed itself within Ganondorf in FSA.

The evil from the Trident radiates to Ganon, but the fussion is not complete until he touches it. Simple, isn't it?

Oh really? Let's look:



This Trident is blatantly of Gerudo design, since it bears the trademark orange gem set into blue stone. The Trident is long and thin, and the two side prongs on it point out sideways a lot.



This Trident is of unknown design. It's much shorter than Phantom Ganon's Trident, and the red jewel it has is much different and set in a different place than Phantom Ganon's Trident jewel. Also, the side prongs point towards the main prong.

Conclusion: Not the same.

Oh really? Let's look to the other tridents:

In ALttP it has a skull, instead of the orange energy centre.. thing, it has a skull. In OoX it ahs nothing.

Conclusion, they are not the same.

OF COURSE THEY ARE THE SAME. Nintendo has just changed its appearance through games. Note that the FSA TRident was made to look like the OoT one, not the ALttP one.

Geography is a point. Geography doesn't have that much significance on storyline, but it does have significance when placing games in a timeline. And your right, TMC is a while before and after games. TMC is a while after TWW, and TMC is a while before FS. Haven't I already proven my point? The geography of FSA and ALttP do not bare resemblance to the geography of OoT. Just look at my post with the map comparisons in and see how little resemblance there is.

FSA geography looks similar to ALttP in the map, but not in the game.

On the other hand, the geography of OoT is a 3D copy of ALttP.

I wake up in the morning and put on MY clothes. Does that mean the clothes are a small part of my essence? No. I just own them, they are possessions, hence they're MINE. Phantom Ganon is a possession of Ganondorf, hence it is his and belongs to him, hence why he calls it his phantom.

If you wear them too long, they acquire a part of your essence. Namely, body odous

Nah, just joking.

My Phantom should have a part of my soul to be my Phantom. He never says my dragon to Volvagia or my spirit to Bongo Bongo. But he says so about Phantom Ganon. And after all, it's Phantom Ganon, it must have something to do with him. I think it might be to Ganondorf what Dark Link is to Link. But that's just an idea.

[Sentient]

FSA is not a prequeld of ALttP. ALttP has only a prequel and its name is OoT.

At the time OoT was made, yes, OoT was the only prequel to ALttP. But more games were made and things move on. What once was, is not necessarily the same now. And everyone knows OoT is a prequel to ALttP, since OoT is the first in the timeline.

I will give you some reasons why FSA can't come between OoT and ALttP:
-In OoT, there is no indication of Ganon being reborn, neither there is in ALttP, where it's explictly stated that ganon was born in the Seal War. They say nothing about a second birth of Ganon.

Well of course there's no indication in OoT that Ganon was reborn, since that's the first time Ganon has appeared, so it's impossible for him to be reborn.

-In ALttP, the descendants of the Sages know about Ganon, and the Seal War, while the Red Maiden has never heard the name of the "original" Ganon, but just the one who is still living.

All this depends entirely on where you place the SW in a timeline. I place the Seal War spoken of in the ALttP manual between FSA and ALttP, like so many others do. You place the SW as OoT, as others do. And cheers for pointing that thing about the Red Maiden out, that'll be handy incase I do get involved in a SW debate in the future. The descendants of the SW Sages in ALttP know of Ganon and the SW, but the Maidens in FSA don't. This helps point towards the SW being placed between FSA and ALttP.

-In OoT the Dark World is corrupted. So it is in ALttP. But in FSA isn't.

It's not the Dark World that's corrupted, it's the Sacred Realm. The corrupted Sacred Realm is the Dark World, so the Dark World cannot be corrupted, since it is a corruption itself. Anyways, the FSA Dark World is a completely unrelated world to the Sacred Realm/Dark World.

-In OoT, Ganon is sealed in teh Sacred Realm/Dark World. In ALttP he's still in the Sacred Realm/Dark World. But in FSA he isn't.

That'd be because the OoT and FSA/ALttP Ganon aren't the same, FSA comes before ALttP and (at least to me) the SW, and the SW explains why Ganon is in the Sacred Realm/Dark World in ALttP, and not in FSA.

-In OoT Phantom Ganon has the Trident. So does Ganon in ALttP and Oracles. But in FSA he doesn't.

He doesn't have the Trident in FSA? What the hell is he holding in the final battle then? A pimped up spoon?

I would think of more, but I think those are enough

They weren't even close to being enough.

The evil from the Trident radiates to Ganon, but the fussion is not complete until he touches it. Simple, isn't it?

My way is simpler.

Oh really? Let's look to the other tridents:

In ALttP it has a skull, instead of the orange energy centre.. thing, it has a skull. In OoX it ahs nothing.

Conclusion, they are not the same.

OF COURSE THEY ARE THE SAME. Nintendo has just changed its appearance through games. Note that the FSA TRident was made to look like the OoT one, not the ALttP one.

Wait, wait, I'm confused. You're saying that the FSA, ALttP and OoX Tridents are not the same, because they look different, but the OoT (even though, as LionHarted said, the OoT "Trident" is actually a halbert)and FSA Tridents are the same even though they look different? Way to screw your own arguement.

FSA geography looks similar to ALttP in the map, but not in the game.

On the other hand, the geography of OoT is a 3D copy of ALttP.

I have already disproved your "theory" of OoT having the same geography as ALttP, so quite defending a false and defeated theory.

My Phantom should have a part of my soul to be my Phantom. He never says my dragon to Volvagia or my spirit to Bongo Bongo. But he says so about Phantom Ganon. And after all, it's Phantom Ganon, it must have something to do with him. I think it might be to Ganondorf what Dark Link is to Link. But that's just an idea.

Do we even hear Ganondorf talk about Volvagia or Bongo Bongo? Anyways, Volvagia and Bongo Bongo aren't his possessions, like Phantom Ganon is. Ganondorf only revived Volvagia, so he does not belong to Ganondorf, and Bongo Bongo broke free on his own.

DarkKnuckle, thanks for the support, I really appreciate it.

[Arturo]

At the time OoT was made, yes, OoT was the only prequel to ALttP. But more games were made and things move on. What once was, is not necessarily the same now. And everyone knows OoT is a prequel to ALttP, since OoT is the first in the timeline.

Baseless statement.

Anyway, being first in timeline doesn't mean it's the prequel to a game. Is MM the prequel to... let's say... FSA? NO But it comes before in Timeline.

Well of course there's no indication in OoT that Ganon was reborn, since that's the first time Ganon has appeared, so it's impossible for him to be reborn.

All this depends entirely on where you place the SW in a timeline. I place the Seal War spoken of in the ALttP manual between FSA and ALttP, like so many others do. You place the SW as OoT, as others do. And cheers for pointing that thing about the Red Maiden out, that'll be handy incase I do get involved in a SW debate in the future. The descendants of the SW Sages in ALttP know of Ganon and the SW, but the Maidens in FSA don't. This helps point towards the SW being placed between FSA and ALttP.

Accept it. OoT is the Seal War. It is an stablished fact, like MM Link being OoT Link. You take for granted that OoT is first in timeline, but cannot accept OoT is the Seal War?

Saying it has changed is as ridiculous as saying there will be a game that will prove TWW's prequel is not OoT.

It's not the Dark World that's corrupted, it's the Sacred Realm. The corrupted Sacred Realm is the Dark World, so the Dark World cannot be corrupted, since it is a corruption itself. Anyways, the FSA Dark World is a completely unrelated world to the Sacred Realm/Dark World.

Prove it.
Why is the Dark world in FSA different from the OoT-ALttP one? They have the same name, both in English and Japanese. And didn't you say (or was it Lionharted, I don't remember) that the portals from FSA are the same as the ones from ALttP?

That'd be because the OoT and FSA/ALttP Ganon aren't the same, FSA comes before ALttP and (at least to me) the SW, and the SW explains why Ganon is in the Sacred Realm/Dark World in ALttP, and not in FSA.

You are basing your theories on the assumption that OoT is not the Seal War, something that is unsopported both by canon and by Nintendo.

He doesn't have the Trident in FSA? What the hell is he holding in the final battle then? A pimped up spoon?

I said, he doesn't have the Trident until he gets it back.

They weren't even close to being enough.

You haven't given me any arguments so far.

4>0

My way is simpler.

Yeah, but it contradicts canon.

Wait, wait, I'm confused. You're saying that the FSA, ALttP and OoX Tridents are not the same, because they look different, but the OoT (even though, as LionHarted said, the OoT "Trident" is actually a halbert)and FSA Tridents are the same even though they look different? Way to screw your own arguement.

Of course they are the same! I just used your "arguments" to "prove" they are not the same. You say that the OoT one is not the same as the FSA one, while they share many more similarities than the FSA with ALttP and OoX. You were using selectiove reasoning. So, according to you, FSA Trident is not the same because they have a few differences, but is the same as the one in ALttP and the one in OoX even though they have many more differences. Amazing.

I have already disproved your "theory" of OoT having the same geography as ALttP, so quite defending a false and defeated theory.

False. Read this:

http://www.zeldalege...n=article_18_p3

It's a fact that OoT has a really similar geography to ALttP one. On the other hand, while FSA geography and the ALttP one share the SAME MAP, but in game, tehy are really differnet. OoT shares the same landmarks as ALttP. Namely:

Lake Hylia in the same place, Death Mountain in the same place, they have Hyrule Field in the same place (only that it has the catsle in it), Woods in the north (look how near Hyrule Castle teher are trees shown in the map), and so on....

[Arturo]

I don't give it a damn about geography. And it's hardlñy a storyline argument. Anyway. I didn't answer your post because i din't see it.

Utterly wrong. For a start, OoT is only ALttP's prequel if you believe OoT is the seal war, secondly they can both be prequels to different aspects of the game.

Which happen to be what creators believe.

-Ganon can't be born during the seal war; he causes it.

Why do you have to understand everything literally? Of course he was born during the seal war TIME, it's what it says in the manual of ALttP. What I said is that the Ganon we know in ALttP was born at the OoT times, not at a latter time.

-I don't quite understand you there.

It's not that difficult to understand. In OoT, the Scared Realm became the Dark World, a world full of evil.In ALttP, this world is full of evil too. But in FSA, the Dark World is not "evil".

-No, he simply 'cannot get back to the light'.

Because he has been sealed by the Seven Sages. Play the game. Just think, if he wasn't sealed by the Seven Sages why is that interest in breaking a seal that doesn't exist?.

-Prove that Phantom Ganon's 'trident' is the same as that which belongs to ganon in ALttP. Also: Ganon gets the trident in FSA. How can you say he does not have it?

He doesn't have it from the beggining. He doesn't have it until he acquires it. And if both Tridnets look the same why should they be different? It's you who have to prove they are different, not me who has to prove they are the same.

As I said before, he's already Ganon at heart, he just needs an energy source to complete the transformation.

Proofs?

But in OoX Ganon is merely a poorly attempted ressurection of Ganon, with no mind.

Of course.

I love the way some people contradict themselves- it makes my life so much easier.

I don't contradict myself. If you can't understand sarcasm, it's not my fault.

Edited by Arturo, 17 November 2006 - 01:26 PM.

[LionHarted]

Which happen to be what creators believe.

A writer who no longer works for the Zelda team =/= "creators".

[Chaltab]

So...

What exactly are you arguing about? I think you're missing the Kokiri Forest for all the Deku Trees.

[Sentient]

Accept it. OoT is the Seal War. It is an stablished fact, like MM Link being OoT Link. You take for granted that OoT is first in timeline, but cannot accept OoT is the Seal War?

Accept it. The SW debate is still open, and no decision has been made. It is not an established fact at all. And what do you mean, I take OoT being first for granted? OoT being first IS an established fact, and nothing can change that.

Prove it.
Why is the Dark world in FSA different from the OoT-ALttP one? They have the same name, both in English and Japanese. And didn't you say (or was it Lionharted, I don't remember) that the portals from FSA are the same as the ones from ALttP?

It was LionHarted. And why does something having the same name mean it's the same? One of my friends is called James. There are many other people called James. Does that make them all the same because they share the same name? No.

You are basing your theories on the assumption that OoT is not the Seal War, something that is unsopported both by canon and by Nintendo.

And you are basing your theories on the assumption that OoT is the SW. And I have dug up plenty of canon evidence that supports OoT =/= SW in past SW debates, so believe me, OoT not being the SW is supported by plenty of canon.

I said, he doesn't have the Trident until he gets it back.

I don't remember reading a part of your posts that say that.

You haven't given me any arguments so far.

4>0

I have given you arguements, but you obviously looked over them. Look a few posts up to my post where I quoted each of your "points" about no game coming between OoT and ALttP. Since I do not like repeating myself, I will only say this: read through posts properly before accusing people of giving no arguements.

Yeah, but it contradicts canon.

What canon?

Of course they are the same! I just used your "arguments" to "prove" they are not the same. You say that the OoT one is not the same as the FSA one, while they share many more similarities than the FSA with ALttP and OoX. You were using selectiove reasoning. So, according to you, FSA Trident is not the same because they have a few differences, but is the same as the one in ALttP and the one in OoX even though they have many more differences. Amazing.

Prove that they are the same! LionHarted has already said that PG's weapon is a halbert, not a Trident, so the burden of proving that they are the same rests upon you.

False. Read this:

http://www.zeldalege...n=article_18_p3

It's a fact that OoT has a really similar geography to ALttP one. On the other hand, while FSA geography and the ALttP one share the SAME MAP, but in game, tehy are really differnet. OoT shares the same landmarks as ALttP. Namely:

Lake Hylia in the same place, Death Mountain in the same place, they have Hyrule Field in the same place (only that it has the catsle in it), Woods in the north (look how near Hyrule Castle teher are trees shown in the map), and so on....

That is so easily disproven. So very easily. Look at this weathervane from Kakariko in ALttP:



Then look at this:



A north arrow on the OoT map, and a weathervane pointing north in ALttP. What does that tell you? That the way the maps were drawn is correct, and rotating them only goes against canon, and makes the theory invalid. Ergo, OoT and ALttP do not have similar geography.

DarkKnuckle, again, thanks for the support .

[Arturo]

Fair enough. I don't really think Geography matters that much in the storyline either.

So do I.

Says who- you?

Not me. I can show you some old quotes:
Miyamoto:

Q: Are the backgrounds different in the child and adult eras?

Miyamoto: During the time when Link is an adult, conditions are intensified. Ganon, from the Super NES game, is a human form before he transforms into a monster. Ganon's elements change during the adult, since he changes into a monster.

Satoru Takizawa:

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

And some modern evidence, from the ALttP re-relase, around the same time as TWW: the translation was remade to fit better with OoT. That is, all the inconsitencies between ALttP SNES and OoT were fixed, since those inconsitencies didn't exist in the Japanese edition. Also, it is noteworthy how they changed from "wise men" to "sage". As far as I know, the first term is more commonly used in English (correct me if this is not true), and they have just a litlle difference: the first implies they are all men, while the second doesn't. In ALttP they were shown in the intro as men. Why changing then the translation when it was 100% correct? Because the seven wise men they talk about happen to be the Seven Saghes from OoT, that were 5 women and two men.

I can only reply to what you have posted; I can't read your mind.

Maybe I am too intelligent or too stupid for you. Choose the one you like most. But i think I made it clear enough it was sarcastic:

Oh really? Let's look to the other tridents:

In ALttP it has a skull, instead of the orange energy centre.. thing, it has a skull. In OoX it ahs nothing.

Conclusion, they are not the same.

OF COURSE THEY ARE THE SAME. Nintendo has just changed its appearance through games. Note that the FSA TRident was made to look like the OoT one, not the ALttP one.

I said "OF COURSE THEY ARE THE SAME. Nintendo has just changed their appearance. It's not that difficult...

Then really it should be 'the sacred realm' but I suppose it is called the dark world because it has begun to look like 'a world'.

What the wuzza-wozza?

The Sacred Realm transforms into the Makai (world of spirits, translated as Evil Realm in OoT), and after Ganondorf is sealed, it becomes the Yami no Sekai (World of Darkness, mistranslated as Evil Realm in OoT, more correct in ALttP and FSA: Dark World). And so it stays until ALttP, where it is supposed to be destroyed. But it seems that destruction is not total, and what we see in FSA seems to be the remains of the now, much less evil, Dark World.

I've played the game. And in FSA Link needs to save 'maidens' (ie sages) to seal Ganon.

Maidens=/=Sages. That just came from your... fanfiction.

And? Neither I or ZG21 have said that Ganon has the trident all through FSA. And I think they are the same, I don't really know why I asked you to prove that they're the same, since they obviously are

Huh?

In OoT, he doesn't need a trident to become Ganon; all he needs is the ToP. This means that the trident does not have Ganon's spirit in it; (as he can transform into Ganon without it) therefore the trident is simply a means of transforming into Ganon, and not the only one.

You are totally missing my point. What I say is: Ganondorf becomes Ganon when he touches the ToP. When he's killed in ALttP or OoX, his essence joins the Trident. That's why ganondorf transforms into ganon when he touches the Trident. Because he joins agin with his animal form.

Is that sarcasm?

Nope

I was taking advantage of your sarcasm.

Not a really intelligent thing to do, but....

Accept it. The SW debate is still open, and no decision has been made. It is not an established fact at all. And what do you mean, I take OoT being first for granted? OoT being first IS an established fact, and nothing can change that.

No, it's not open. You haven't given me any proof for OoT being first, yet you have stablished it as first. Creators intended and still intend (we'll see in TP, though) it to be the SW. It's not open.

It was LionHarted. And why does something having the same name mean it's the same? One of my friends is called James. There are many other people called James. Does that make them all the same because they share the same name? No.

They have the same name, similar properties and are accessed in the same way. White and in botle.... Milk

And you are basing your theories on the assumption that OoT is the SW. And I have dug up plenty of canon evidence that supports OoT =/= SW in past SW debates, so believe me, OoT not being the SW is supported by plenty of canon.

Which happens to be a much smaller and safer assumption than saying OoT is not the SW. Read Davogones' article on it, and I may write something more up to date. But there are no proofs against it. Saying OoT isn not the prequel of ALttP is like saying OoT is not the prequel of TWW. Or even worse.

I don't remember reading a part of your posts that say that.

Know the meaning of the word implication?

I have given you arguements, but you obviously looked over them. Look a few posts up to my post where I quoted each of your "points" about no game coming between OoT and ALttP. Since I do not like repeating myself, I will only say this: read through posts properly before accusing people of giving no arguements.

I am sorry, I said argument. I forgot to add the "valid" part. Let's see: you have said the Geography argument, that overlooks the similarities between OoT and ALttP map, and the Trident thing, which overlooks that Phantom ganon has it. Did I miss anything?

What canon?

The part that says Phantom Ganon has the Trident, for example.

Prove that they are the same! LionHarted has already said that PG's weapon is a halbert, not a Trident, so the burden of proving that they are the same rests upon you.

It is not a halberd at all. Halberds are really long spears that are used with two hands and that has at the end of it an axe. A trident is a weapon with three teeth (it comes from Latin Tridens, that means three teeth).
Unlike Lionharted say, Tridents don't have to be huge forks. The only condition is that they have three teeth. And halberds end in a small axe. What is in the end of the Trident of Phantom ganon is not an axe. It's three teeth. Thus, a Trident.

That is so easily disproven. So very easily. Look at this weathervane from Kakariko in ALttP:



Then look at this:



A north arrow on the OoT map, and a weathervane pointing north in ALttP. What does that tell you? That the way the maps were drawn is correct, and rotating them only goes against canon, and makes the theory invalid. Ergo, OoT and ALttP do not have similar geography.

Never dare to say Davogones' theories are easy to disprove.+

Now, end of the playtime!!!
Geography Class:

There are two kinds of North, the geogrpahical (or true) one and the Magnetic one, that don't correspond to each other. The first is indicated by the Sun, whil the second is the one the Compass points to.

http://en.wikipedia....rth#Definitions

Edited by Arturo, 09 December 2006 - 01:32 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

On Earth, sure. That's not nessessarily true for Hyrule.

[Arturo]

Of course it isn't. But it's not necessarily false for Hyrule.


Anyway, unless anyone gives a marvelous proof for FSA>ALttP, I am off. I know when I should retire from a debate, and I think the time is now.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, you can't prove that what Phantom Ganon holds is even a trident, much less the Trident. Since it's not a trident, it's not the Trident. Also, none of your evidence proves that OoT Ganon is ALttP Ganon--just that they mirrored the same concepts in OoT when designing Ganon.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 06:16 PM.

[Arturo]

Two words: common sense