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A Great Way to Look at a Theory's Evidence


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#61 SOAP

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 12:41 AM

Maybe it's a simple matter of if the baby looks like a Gerudo then the mother takes the baby and raises it as a Gerudo. If not the father takes the baby and raises it as a Hylian. From 1900 to 1969 Aboriginal children who had pale skin were known as half-caste's and were taken away from their families by Australian Government Agencies and Church Missions and brought up in White Man's society. These children were known as the stolen generation. Maybe something similar happens in Hyrule.


Actually this reminds me of a theory taht Malon's mom is Gerudo. When you wear the Gerudo Mask and talk to Talon, he says something like "Whoa! you reminded me of my wife." Then again, he says the same thing with the Goron mask. I like the idea of Malon's mom being a Gerudo though. It makes sense.

#62 Mad Scrub

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 12:51 AM

That's what I was referring to. But if a Goron reminds Talon of his wife also then it probably isn't canon.

#63 SOAP

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:21 AM

Maybe not canon but a plausible theory nonetheless. It's just fanfiction now, but it's reasonable enough explanation.

#64 Jumbie

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 06:10 PM

Maybe it's a simple matter of if the baby looks like a Gerudo then the mother takes the baby and raises it as a Gerudo. If not the father takes the baby and raises it as a Hylian. From 1900 to 1969 Aboriginal children who had pale skin were known as half-caste's and were taken away from their families by Australian Government Agencies and Church Missions and brought up in White Man's society. These children were known as the stolen generation. Maybe something similar happens in Hyrule.

This is also how things went with the Amazon tribe of Greek mythology, which the Gerudo were based on.

#65 Vertiboy

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 06:53 PM

There is also a popular debate about OoT's ending. Is adult OoT erased, or does it just happen 7 years later? Just look and see which theory has the fewest assumptions.

Adult OoT Happens 7 Years Later
1. After MM, does Epona return to Hyrule for adult Link to ride?
2. After Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle, does Zelda come back to the courtyard?
3. Does Ganondorf attack Hyrule Castle again when Link is sleeping in the Chaimber of the Sages?

Adult OoT is Erased (When Zelda Sends Link Back)
1. When Zelda sends Link back, is Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact moment that Link arrives in the past for the last time?

Let me explain all of these. First, let me start with "Adult OoT Happens 7 Years Later." Link takes Epona with him to look for Navi, as we find in MM. If adult OoT happens roughly 7 years after MM (since MM begins a few months after the child ending of OoT), then somehow, in that 7 years, Epona would have to make her way back to Lon Lon Ranch for adult Link to find her and ride her. No where in MM are we informed that Link, let alone Epona, ever returned to Hyrule. It is a leap of faith to say that she did. It's possible, but not factual.

Next, after you get the Ocarina of Time on, of course, OoT, go back into the alley in HC Town, and you will see a dying soldier. He will tell you that Impa saw Ganondorf's attack coming in a vision, so she took Zelda and left HC. Zelda later says that Ganondorf attacked HC on that day, so Impa and Zelda must have got out right before the attack began. This is relevant because, if adult OoT happens later, then Ganondorf should be in control of HC when Link returns from the future. Why, then, does Link go meet Zelda in HC courtyard at the very end of the game? It isn't a flashback to when they first met earlier because there are some differences. First, there is the Triforce mark on the back of Link's hand. Second, whenever Link first talks to Zelda early in the game, Link must be right next to her in order to get her attention. She is looking into the throne room, and Link practically has to get on her back, push the A button, and then she turns around and reacts. At the scene at the end, Link is at the bottom of the stairs and then some when he gets Zelda's attention. Assuming that the scene is anything else but a new event would just be more assumption, and this would get even messier.

Some people will ask the obvious question, "Couldn't have Zelda just have returned to HC after Ganondorf attacked?" That's why I brought up the soldier. Now this part is just common sense; if Impa predicted one attack, then, if there were two attacks, wouldn't it make sense that she would predict them both? If she predicted them both, then why would she even let Zelda return to HC in the first place? Also, OoT never says that Ganondorf attacked HC multiple times. We only know about the one time. Yes, it's possible that he attacked but didn't gain control, then Zelda returned, only to escape again when HC was attacked again, on top of the fact that Impa would have to be stupid and only predict one of the two attacks, but that's all an assumption.

Now for "Adult OoT is Erased." In MM if you free a Giant on 5:59 A.M. on Day 3, right before the moon crashes, then go back to Day 1, the Giant would be freed. If you want proof, you would just have to wait until 12:00 A.M. on Day 3 so you can go to the top of the Clock Tower, play the Oath to Order, then summon the Giant. He will come, even though he was freed at a later time in the previous cycle. The point of this is to show that even though the events of the previous cycle are erased, the Giant is somehow freed. That's what I'm suggesting for Ganondorf's seal, except the seal is in reverse. When Zelda sends Link back to his own time, Ganondorf is sealed at the exact moment Link arrives. He is still sealed, even though the events of the future in which he was sealed never happened. The seal carries over, just like the Giant's freedom. I cannot, however, prove that OoT's ending follows MM's time travel logic, so it is an assumption, not a fact.

#66 Mad Scrub

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 08:00 PM

Adult OoT is Erased (When Zelda Sends Link Back)
1. When Zelda sends Link back, is Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact moment that Link arrives in the past for the last time?

You'd have to assume that Adult Princess Zelda returned the OoT to the past in the same way she did Link. You'd also have to assume that the seven or six sages were later woken in Child Hyrule to reinforce the seal on Ganondorf. Remember their on the stained glass windows in Hyrule Castle in TWW.

http://www.spriters-.../castletext.png

Edited by Mad Scrub, 12 November 2006 - 08:02 PM.


#67 Ogmios22188

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 08:31 PM

Now for "Adult OoT is Erased." In MM if you free a Giant on 5:59 A.M. on Day 3, right before the moon crashes, then go back to Day 1, the Giant would be freed. If you want proof, you would just have to wait until 12:00 A.M. on Day 3 so you can go to the top of the Clock Tower, play the Oath to Order, then summon the Giant. He will come, even though he was freed at a later time in the previous cycle. The point of this is to show that even though the events of the previous cycle are erased, the Giant is somehow freed. That's what I'm suggesting for Ganondorf's seal, except the seal is in reverse. When Zelda sends Link back to his own time, Ganondorf is sealed at the exact moment Link arrives. He is still sealed, even though the events of the future in which he was sealed never happened. The seal carries over, just like the Giant's freedom. I cannot, however, prove that OoT's ending follows MM's time travel logic, so it is an assumption, not a fact.

I think the Giant is still saved because there are multiple Links running around. When Link goes back in time, the Link who was already there will still be there. They all go about their quests until everything is completed. In this timeline, some Terminas are destroyed, but an infinite amount are saved.

#68 Chaltab

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 09:43 PM

I think the Giant is still saved because there are multiple Links running around. When Link goes back in time, the Link who was already there will still be there. They all go about their quests until everything is completed. In this timeline, some Terminas are destroyed, but an infinite amount are saved.


Assuming this it becomes rather difficult to explain why there aren't multiple copies of yourself running around in the game.

I think it's more likely that the dimensions in which the Four are trapped exist outside the flow of normal time--in other words, even though Link resets time for Termina, he doesn't reset time for the Giants. (After all, I don't believe they try and teach you the songs again when you return to fight the bosses, do they?)

#69 Ogmios22188

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 09:53 PM

Well, I think that's because of gameplay mechanics, like Link still having money saved in the bank after going back in time. Does the banker exist in another realm, too?

#70 SOAP

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 09:57 PM

No. He just writes Link's entire bank balance on his hat, which is incredibly dumb but it explains how he "keeps" all his money.

#71 Jumbie

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:02 PM

There is also a popular debate about OoT's ending. Is adult OoT erased, or does it just happen 7 years later?

Or: Does the timeline split? ;)

Adult OoT Happens 7 Years Later
1. After MM, does Epona return to Hyrule for adult Link to ride?
2. After Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle, does Zelda come back to the courtyard?
3. Does Ganondorf attack Hyrule Castle again when Link is sleeping in the Chaimber of the Sages?

Point 1 is most likely positive. Point 2 cannot be positive. Point 3 is positive with 100% certainty, backed up by in-game text (which I don't have right now...).

Adult OoT is Erased (When Zelda Sends Link Back)
1. When Zelda sends Link back, is Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact moment that Link arrives in the past for the last time?

Most likely yes, but...

Now for "Adult OoT is Erased."
When Zelda sends Link back to his own time, Ganondorf is sealed at the exact moment Link arrives. He is still sealed, even though the events of the future in which he was sealed never happened. The seal carries over, just like the Giant's freedom. I cannot, however, prove that OoT's ending follows MM's time travel logic, so it is an assumption, not a fact.

The time travel mechanics do indeed work differently in OoT and MM. MM involves a time loop, OoT involves two intact times to travel between. Nonetheless I agree that the seal transcends from Adult to Child Hyrule. But, I heavily deny an eradication of OoT's future half, seeing as TWW irrefutably proves that it did happen with Ganondorf's own memory of almost gathering all three Triforce pieces on top of his tower.

http://www.spriters-.../castletext.png

!!! @_@ Is it possible, the in-game pics of the stained-glass windows!! The thing I've been searching for so long now.. :lol: You did me a very great favour in pointing out this link, Mad Scrub! Thank you very much!!
Yay, today is truly a lucky day...

I think the Giant is still saved because there are multiple Links running around. When Link goes back in time, the Link who was already there will still be there. They all go about their quests until everything is completed. In this timeline, some Terminas are destroyed, but an infinite amount are saved.

I counter the existence of more than one Terminan timeline. The reason why Link is able to call the Giants that he has only freed in different cycles, is that he carries their masks around with him. Since he takes the masks back to a new cycle, these masks cannot be trapped inside the temples anymore, because they are in Link's pockets instead. Thus, the Giants are freed although Link did not beat the bosses in this cycle.
The only thing that Link really ever does in MM is moving items around - from their resting place to his pockets, from the first cycle to a next one. The time loop is always rewound, and nothing but the very last cycle goes down to history.

Edited by Jumbie, 12 November 2006 - 10:03 PM.


#72 Mad Scrub

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:19 PM

!!! @_@ Is it possible, the in-game pics of the stained-glass windows!! The thing I've been searching for so long now.. :lol: You did me a very great favour in pointing out this link, Mad Scrub! Thank you very much!!
Yay, today is truly a lucky day...

Consider it a late birthday present ;).

Edited by Mad Scrub, 12 November 2006 - 10:20 PM.


#73 SOAP

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:35 PM

Or: Does the timeline split? ;)

Point 1 is most likely positive. Point 2 cannot be positive. Point 3 is positive with 100% certainty, backed up by in-game text (which I don't have right now...).

Most likely yes, but...

The time travel mechanics do indeed work differently in OoT and MM. MM involves a time loop, OoT involves two intact times to travel between. Nonetheless I agree that the seal transcends from Adult to Child Hyrule. But, I heavily deny an eradication of OoT's future half, seeing as TWW irrefutably proves that it did happen with Ganondorf's own memory of almost gathering all three Triforce pieces on top of his tower.
!!! @_@ Is it possible, the in-game pics of the stained-glass windows!! The thing I've been searching for so long now.. :lol: You did me a very great favour in pointing out this link, Mad Scrub! Thank you very much!!
Yay, today is truly a lucky day...
I counter the existence of more than one Terminan timeline. The reason why Link is able to call the Giants that he has only freed in different cycles, is that he carries their masks around with him. Since he takes the masks back to a new cycle, these masks cannot be trapped inside the temples anymore, because they are in Link's pockets instead. Thus, the Giants are freed although Link did not beat the bosses in this cycle.
The only thing that Link really ever does in MM is moving items around - from their resting place to his pockets, from the first cycle to a next one. The time loop is always rewound, and nothing but the very last cycle goes down to history.


*kneels down on one knee* Jumbie. Marry me.

#74 Vertiboy

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 10:45 PM

You'd have to assume that Adult Princess Zelda returned the OoT to the past in the same way she did Link. You'd also have to assume that the seven or six sages were later woken in Child Hyrule to reinforce the seal on Ganondorf. Remember their on the stained glass windows in Hyrule Castle in TWW.


Actually, the Ocarina isn't a problem. Well, it is a problem, but it's a problem in both timeline theories I presented. I didn't count that as an assumption because every theory had to make that assumption. Even if adult OoT happens 7 years later, we still don't have definite evidence of where the Ocarina is.

I understand your point with the stain glass windows. As of right now, we don't know anything about TP, so I'm not going to say, "Hey, wait until that comes out, and then we'll talk about this." I will be upfront. Is there a problem if adult OoT is erased? Yes. The theory is not perfect.

I have a question. Is is ever said in TWW exactly how the people of Hyrule found out that Rauru and company were Sages? As far as we know, Link could have told them. When you have the Triforce of Courage inside of you and the mark to prove it, people are very likely to believe you. That's an assumption, though.

I'm going to try to say this in the best way without confusing myself and others. The two theories I gave above were about OoT, not TWW. I'm not saying that I'm completely disregarding the point you made; I actually plan on addressing that. The reason I said that is because if we are going to deal with all assumptions tying OoT/MM/TWW/ALttP/etc. together, we'll have to do it for both sides of the arguement. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that even though the stained glass windows are a problem, they are not a problem when the debate is soley focused on adult OoT. To make things clear, I count what you said as an assumption, but only when we are looking at a debate about the bigger picture, not just adult OoT.

Anyway, this is where we are getting into what people see as acceptable when dealing with a timeline theory. For example, let's take a look at all of the assumptions required involving my beliefs regarding and connecting OoT/MM/TWW/IW/ALttP. To make my beliefs clear, I think that OoT is the Imprisoning War, TWW is a "what if", and adult OoT is erased. Let's take a look at all of the assumptions that would make that work.

1. Does some event happen differently after OoT that would lead to TWW instead of ALttP (like Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm in one reality, but he remains inside in another.

2. Did the IW legend change overtime from the story of OoT?

3. Is Ganondorf sealed in the past at the moment Link arrives after Zelda sent him back?

4. Does some event happen that would allow the erased events of adult OoT to be remembered (note: This would allow people to tell the story of the IW legend, as well as know that Rauru and friends were the Sages)? These events could include the Sages retaining their memory, Link telling everyone about adult OoT, or etc.

I think the Giant is still saved because there are multiple Links running around. When Link goes back in time, the Link who was already there will still be there. They all go about their quests until everything is completed. In this timeline, some Terminas are destroyed, but an infinite amount are saved.


That still doesn't explain how the Giant can be free many hours before Link even freed him in the previous cycle. Plus, here's proof there are not multiple Links. Let's say that you beat Odlaw and his dungeon already in a previous cycle, but you want to return the swamp back to normal in the present cycle. Let's say that as soon as you are returned to Day 1, 6:00 A.M., you warp to the swamp, beat Odlaw by
Day 1, 12:00 P.M. The swamp will return to normal. After you do that, play the Song of Time and go back again. In this cycle, if you do not return to the swamp and beat Odlaw again by Day 1, 12:00 P.M., does the swamp still return to normal? No, it does not. There's proof there aren't multiple Links running around during MM. There is only one Link at a time in MM, unless you are 73h 1337 h@x0r2, and I, personally, don't think that 73h 1337 h@x are canon. :)

Or: Does the timeline split?

Oh, true. I didn't worry about including that because the assumptions for that would basically be the same as if it's erased, except we'd add the assumption that the timeline splits off, so it would have 2 assumptions.

#75 Mad Scrub

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 11:05 PM

Has anyone thought of putting ALttP after the Adult events of OoT? If TWW happened after MM in Child Hyrule I imagine it would make The Legend of the Fairy canon, you'd have to assume that the sages were summoned to reinforce the seal and the Hero of Time's adventures would still be known by the Royal Family. Adult Princess Zelda and Impa are the only members of the Royal Family that we see in Adult events of OoT, the people in Hyrule Castle Town move out and don't really see Link as a Hero. The Goron's and the Zora might. The identity of the sages probably isn't known to the people of Hyrule which would explain their generic appearance in ALttP's BS.

Any thoughts?

#76 SOAP

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 12:52 AM

I get tempted to believe that everytime I come to this forum. I kid you not.

#77 LionHarted

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:22 AM

1. After MM, does Epona return to Hyrule for adult Link to ride?

Most likely.

2. After Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle, does Zelda come back to the courtyard?

Most likely, in order to call for the defense of the castle.

3. Does Ganondorf attack Hyrule Castle again when Link is sleeping in the Chaimber of the Sages?

Obviously. Unless you'd like to propose that Hyrule Castle Town burned itself to the ground.

1. When Zelda sends Link back, is Ganondorf sealed in the Sacred Realm at the exact moment that Link arrives in the past for the last time?

Is this possible or implied within the context of OoT? If the answer to this question is "no", then I'd say no.

No where in MM are we informed that Link, let alone Epona, ever returned to Hyrule. It is a leap of faith to say that she did. It's possible, but not factual.

You've never seen the ending to MM, I take it? You know--the part with them in the Lost Woods? =/

Some people will ask the obvious question, "Couldn't have Zelda just have returned to HC after Ganondorf attacked?" That's why I brought up the soldier. Now this part is just common sense; if Impa predicted one attack, then, if there were two attacks, wouldn't it make sense that she would predict them both?

Impa predicted the first attack because Ganondorf was in the castle, and she and Zelda were spying on him. They do not have this luxury after Ganondorf takes the Triforce of Power from the Sacred Realm

Also, OoT never says that Ganondorf attacked HC multiple times. We only know about the one time.

Again, Hyrule Castle obviously didn't turn into a smoldering crater the first time Ganondorf attacked, so it's obvious that there's a second attack that happens later and that results in the death of the rest of the soldiers.

In MM if you free a Giant on 5:59 A.M. on Day 3, right before the moon crashes, then go back to Day 1, the Giant would be freed.

No kidding. Because you take the Mask in which it was sealed back in time with you.

Edited by LionHarted, 13 November 2006 - 01:23 AM.


#78 Jumbie

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 05:47 PM

Consider it a late birthday present ;).

I'll do, thx!

*kneels down on one knee* Jumbie. Marry me.

Oh, um, any specific reason..? But anyway, I'll keep it in mind (and sig) for the unlikely case that my preference ever changes from asexual bot to your preference ;)

#79 Vertiboy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:04 PM

Most likely.

Most likely, in order to call for the defense of the castle.

Obviously. Unless you'd like to propose that Hyrule Castle Town burned itself to the ground.

Is this possible or implied within the context of OoT? If the answer to this question is "no", then I'd say no.


I think that you are missing the point. I'm not saying that these events are impossible. These events could happen. I can't prove them wrong. I can't prove them right, either. What I am saying is that at the end of MM, we don't see a video of Link riding Epona back to Lon Lon Ranch. Yes, he was in the Lost Woods, but we don't know whether or not he goes back. That's why it's an assumption. It is a possibility, but we cannot prove it.

Also, the third assumption in the "Adult OoT Happens 7 Years Later" theory was that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle again, not Hyrule Castle Town. How HC Town burned to the ground is irrelevant. I'm saying that when he attacked HC the first time, he took control of it on the first try. Nothing in OoT ever mentions or suggest a second attack on HC after the first one, so there is no reason to assume another attack ever took place.

The two assumptions go together. If there is no reason to assume there was another attack, then Ganondorf took control of the castle on the first try. If that's that's true, then Zelda had no reason to be in HC because Ganondorf had control of it, unless she was captured, which would just change one assumption into another.

You've never seen the ending to MM, I take it? You know--the part with them in the Lost Woods? =/

Yes, my mistake. Link returns to the Lost Woods, so he is technically on Hyrule's soil. We don't see an elaborate video of Link taking Epona back to Lon Lon Ranch. I don't really think that the last scene of MM implies that. I really don't think that it implies anything. I think that it's just Link riding around on Epona in the Lost Woods. No deep meaning. No special significance. Nothing. Either way, you can't say that Link bringing Epona back to Hyrule is a fact because it's not. It's possible, but not factual.

Impa predicted the first attack because Ganondorf was in the castle, and she and Zelda were spying on him. They do not have this luxury after Ganondorf takes the Triforce of Power from the Sacred Realm


That's fan fiction. We aren't exactly told how Impa finds out with visions that an attack will happen. There is no quote saying, "Impa was only able to predict the attack because Ganondorf was in the castle, etc., etc., etc." We just know that she predicted one attack, for whatever reason, and unless the "7 years later" theory feels like using up more assumptions (maybe by making the statement about Ganondorf in the castle, etc.), there is no reason to assume that she wouldn't predict two attacks.

Again, Hyrule Castle obviously didn't turn into a smoldering crater the first time Ganondorf attacked, so it's obvious that there's a second attack that happens later and that results in the death of the rest of the soldiers.

Is it really an attack if he took control of it the first time? Wouldn't it be more like demolition? Read this.

We Sheikah have served the
royalty of Hyrule from generation
to generation as attendants.
However...
On that day seven years ago,
Ganondorf suddenly attacked...
and Hyrule Castle surrendered
after a short time.

Ganondorf's target was one of
the keys to the Sacred Realm...the
hidden treasure of the Royal
Family...The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda
out of Ganondorf's reach.
When last I saw you, as we made
our escape from the castle, you
were just a lad...
Now I see that you have become
a fine hero...


If the castle surrendered shortly after, then it's only common sense that Ganondorf gained control of it. If he gained control of it, why would he attack it again? One attack.

Let me add something.

Unnngh...are you the boy from
the forest...?
I-I-I've finally met you...
I-I-I have something to t-t-tell
you...
Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of
Thieves, betrayed our King...
Zelda's nanny, Impa, sensed danger
and escaped from the castle with
our Princess...

I tried to stop Ganondorf's men
from chasing them...but...
The Princess was...waiting for a
boy from the forest...that's you...
She wanted to give something to
the boy...
If you received it from the
Princess,
hurry...to the Temple of
Time....


I guess that it just says that she sensed danger, not that it was clairvoyance or anything. Either way, Zelda has no reason to be in HC at the very end of the game, since the quote before the previous one proves that Ganondorf took control of HC with the first attack.

No kidding. Because you take the Mask in which it was sealed back in time with you.

MM never says that. If it does, could you provide a quote?

Edited by Vertiboy, 10 December 2006 - 04:00 PM.


#80 Mad Scrub

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:31 PM

MM never says that. If it does, could you provide a quote?

I don't think anyone can provide a quote but he has them in his inventory. When Link gets the Gilded Sword it doesn't turn into the Kokiri Sword everytime he returns to the past even though MM never says whether it does or it doesn't. But we know it doesn't because we can actually see the sword Link is using.

#81 LionHarted

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:43 PM

Also, the third assumption in the "Adult OoT Happens 7 Years Later" theory was that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle again, not Hyrule Castle Town. How HC Town burned to the ground is irrelevant. I'm saying that when he attacked HC the first time, he took control of it on the first try.

Then he left in pursuit of the Princess. =/

Either way, you can't say that Link bringing Epona back to Hyrule is a fact because it's not. It's possible, but not factual.

TP basically disproves a split timeline, as rumor has it. So I think I can "just say that Link brings Epona back to Hyrule", because that's what now has to happen.

#82 Vertiboy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:59 PM

Then he left in pursuit of the Princess. =/

Okay, Ganondorf left. Sheik said that Hyrule Castle surrendered shortly after that attack, however, so he gains control of HC, and unless the Hylia retake HC (adding yet another assumption), there is no need for two battles or for Zelda to be in HC at the very end of the game.

TP basically disproves a split timeline, as rumor has it. So I think I can "just say that Link brings Epona back to Hyrule", because that's what now has to happen.


That's not the split timeline theory. The split timeline theory says that the events of the adult timeline are separated from the child timeline when Link arrives in the past, and that TWW happens in the adult timeline. That is the split timeline. I am saying that when Link is sent back, the adult timeline is completely wiped away, as if it had never happened, and the only evidence of it is the fact that Ganondorf had been sealed in the Dark World. Adult OoT being erased isn't part of the split timeline. Actually, it's the exact opposite. It's saying that the adult timeline no longer exist after Link is sent back, so there is no way that TWW could happen in the adult timeline. I believe that the events of adult OoT were erased, and that TWW happens after OoT as an alternative to ALttP. For example, maybe TWW is asking, "What if Ganondorf escaped the Dark World after Ocarina of Time instead of remaining there up to his death in A Link to the Past?" The split timeline theory is (rumored to be) disproven in TP, not the theory that adult OoT is erased. With that being said, we cannot say that it is a fact that Epona returns to Lon Lon Ranch after MM.

Edited by Vertiboy, 13 November 2006 - 08:00 PM.


#83 LionHarted

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 08:46 PM

Okay, Ganondorf left. Sheik said that Hyrule Castle surrendered shortly after that attack, however, so he gains control of HC, and unless the Hylia retake HC (adding yet another assumption), there is no need for two battles or for Zelda to be in HC at the very end of the game.

Hyrule Castle surrendered to Ganondorf. Ganondorf left to pursue Zelda. Hyrule Castle is no longer occupied by Ganondorf. Therefore they can easily retake it.

The split timeline theory is (rumored to be) disproven in TP, not the theory that adult OoT is erased. With that being said, we cannot say that it is a fact that Epona returns to Lon Lon Ranch after MM.

Adult OoT must happen in order for TP/TWW to happen.

#84 Vertiboy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:08 PM

Hyrule Castle surrendered to Ganondorf. Ganondorf left to pursue Zelda. Hyrule Castle is no longer occupied by Ganondorf. Therefore they can easily retake it.


Yes, Ganondorf no longer occupies HC, but I'm going to guess that Ganondorf didn't attack HC alone. I think that's a given.

Adult OoT must happen in order for TP/TWW to happen.

Not if MM time travel logic is applied to the Sages' seal on the Dark World. As I have explained, it's like freeing a Giant, except in reverse. When Link frees a Giant and goes back to Day 1, that Giant is still free, even though the events of the previous 3-day cycle are erased. When Ganondorf is sealed and Zelda sends Link back, according to the one and only "adult OoT erased" assumption, Ganondorf is still sealed, even though the events of adult OoT never happened. If the events of a previous 3-day cycle don't have to happen in order for the Giants to be freed, then adult OoT doesn't need to happen in order for TWW to happen.

Also, read these quotes from MM.

You've seized Odolwa's Remains!

You have just freed the innocent
spirit that this dark mask had
kept imprisoned within the body
of evil Odolwa.

You've seized Goht's Remains!

You have just freed the innocent
spirit that this dark mask had
kept imprisoned within the body
of evil Goht.

You've seized Gyorg's Remains!

You have just freed the innocent
spirit that this dark mask had
kept imprisoned within the body
of evil Gyorg.

You've seized Twinmold's Remains!

You have just freed the innocent
spirit that this dark mask had
kept imprisoned within the body
of evil Twinmold.


The Giants were inside of the boss' masks, but Link freed them from the mask. The Giants are not inside of the masks when Link goes back in time, so that's not the explaination for why they are still freed when Link goes back in time. Therefore, it is possible that MM time travel logic applies to the seal on the Dark World placed at the end of OoT, making it the one and only "adult OoT erased" assumption.

Edited by Vertiboy, 13 November 2006 - 09:09 PM.


#85 Ogmios22188

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:08 PM

Hyrule Castle surrendered to Ganondorf. Ganondorf left to pursue Zelda. Hyrule Castle is no longer occupied by Ganondorf. Therefore they can easily retake it.

Adult OoT must happen in order for TP/TWW to happen.

There's no evidence of a second attack. You don't think Ganondorf would've left some followers in the castle while he pursued Zelda?

If you're gonna be talking about TP, remember this is spoiler-free. I've heard the game disproves the split timeline, but that's from TSA, who's been against the split timeline from the start. We'll see how everyone else feels once we've all finished the game. Until then, however, don't make assumptions about the game and don't give away undisputable facts, since there are some of us, like me, who want to find out for ourselves.

The Giants were inside of the boss' masks, but Link freed them from the mask. The Giants are not inside of the masks when Link goes back in time, so that's not the explaination for why they are freed. Therefore, it is possible that MM time travel logic applies to the seal on the Dark World placed at the end of OoT, making it the one and only "adult OoT erased" assumption.

The spirits were trapped in the masks, which in turn trapped them in the bosses bodies. When you kill the bosses, you free them from the masks. They're not in them. You bring an empty mask back in time with you. It's simply a symbol of conquest, further proving my belief that there are multiple Links completing the various elements of the quest so that all of the Giants are freed in the end.

Edited by Ogmios22188, 13 November 2006 - 09:16 PM.


#86 Vertiboy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:20 PM

Actually, I found proof that Ganondorf didn't attack HC alone.

Unnngh...are you the boy from
the forest...?
I-I-I've finally met you...
I-I-I have something to t-t-tell
you...
Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of
Thieves, betrayed our King...
Zelda's nanny, Impa, sensed danger
and escaped from the castle with
our Princess...
I tried to stop Ganondorf's men
from chasing them...but...
The Princess was...waiting for a
boy from the forest...that's you...
She wanted to give something to
the boy...
If you received it from the
Princess,
hurry...to the Temple of
Time....


Ganondorf could leave HC to chase Impa and Zelda. It wasn't a problem. His men could finish the battle without him, or if HC had already surrendered, his men could keep everything in check until he gets back.

The spirits were trapped in the masks, which in turn trapped them in the bosses bodies. When you kill the bosses, you free them from the masks. They're not in them. You bring an empty mask back in time with you. It's simply a symbol of conquest, further proving my belief that there are multiple Links completing the various elements of the quest so that all of the Giants are freed in the end.


Picture this scenario, unless you have already read it. Let's say that Link beats Odlaw and returns the swamp to normal by 12:00 A.M. on Day 1. He travels back in time, then in the current 3-day cycle, he waits until 12:01 A.M. on Day 1. The swamp isn't returned to normal. If there were multiple Links running around, then (1)Link would meet with all of the other Links from the previous 3-day cycles in front of the Clock Tower, and (2)the swamp would return to normal at 12:00 A.M. on Day 1, regardless of what Link does in the current 3-day cycle.

Now I know what you are thinking (maybe). The N64 technology wasn't powerful enough to record when events happen and the path of every single Link. Well, I couldn't disagree with that. Which is where I bring Star Wars into the debate. Lucas wanted to wait to do the prequel trilogy until technology caught up with his vision for them. I'm saying that the same thing applied here. Technology wouldn't allow the makers of MM to make multiple Links running around with the exact actions as other 3-day cycles and record the times that dungeons and sidequest were completed. Theoretically, one could say that's why the time travel logic doesn't work that way. Technology wouldn't allow for such a detailed (and quite frankly, confusing) time travel logic, so we are just forced to accept the fact that even though the events of the previous 3-day cycle are erased, Link still keeps important items, Giants remain free, and Link and Tatl retain their memory of previous 3-day cycles.

Anyway, though, the evidence against multiple Links in MM is great. You can test the scenario I described in the scenario above to reaffirm my findings if you'd like.

Edited by Vertiboy, 13 November 2006 - 09:33 PM.


#87 LionHarted

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:35 PM

There's no evidence of a second attack.

There has to have been a second attack, or else the castle wouldn't have been destroyed.

#88 Mad Scrub

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:37 PM

Men!? Ganondorf's men!? I thought only one Gerudo male was born every 100 years.

#89 Vertiboy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:39 PM

There has to have been a second attack, or else the castle wouldn't have been destroyed.


Again, if Ganondorf already had control of the castle after the first attack (as his men could continue the battle as he went after Zelda and Impa), he could have just tore the old castle down to make room for his new one.

Men!? Ganondorf's men!? I thought only one Gerudo male was born every 100 years.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. Maybe they weren't Gerudo. Who knows. The point is that Ganondorf wasn't the only person attacking HC.

Edited by Vertiboy, 13 November 2006 - 09:40 PM.


#90 Ogmios22188

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:48 PM

Now I know what you are thinking (maybe). The N64 technology wasn't powerful enough to record when events happen and the path of every single Link. Well, I couldn't disagree with that. Which is where I bring Star Wars into the debate. Lucas wanted to wait to do the prequel trilogy until technology caught up with his vision for them. I'm saying that the same thing applied here. Technology wouldn't allow the makers of MM to make multiple Links running around with the exact actions as other 3-day cycles and record the times that dungeons and sidequest were completed. Theoretically, one could say that's why the time travel logic doesn't work that way. Technology wouldn't allow for such a detailed (and quite frankly, confusing) time travel logic, so we are just forced to accept the fact that even though the events of the previous 3-day cycle are erased, Link still keeps important items, Giants remain free, and Link and Tatl retain their memory of previous 3-day cycles.

Anyway, though, the evidence against multiple Links in MM is great. You can test the scenario I described in the scenario above to reaffirm my findings if you'd like.

That's why I called those elements as game mechanics, such as Link still having money in the bank after going back in time or losing arrows and bombs and such when there's no real reason for him to lose them. So, I still think it really only makes sense if there are multiple Links running around.




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