220 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Yes, because dark rites, limited to two ancient Gerudo witches, is exactly how a race comes to develop and thrive.

You are being utterly rediculous. First you argue that all Gerudo traits are recessive, AS IF REAL WORLD GENETICS MATTERS and then you argue that a race of humans has come to exist simply due to having magic as a backup.

Besides, the dark rites was to bring back GANON, not the man Ganondorf. Ganondorf as a human has never been resurrected to our knowledge.

Hey, what about in FSA, where they basically kick Ganondorf out despite him being the only way to breed?

What about in Termina, where the Gerudos exist perfectly fine without any male leader?

Honestly, your concept of the Gerudos does not hold against common sense.

[LionHarted]

Fyxe, on Nov 10 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

Yes, because dark rites, limited to two ancient Gerudo witches, is exactly how a race comes to develop and thrive.

Is it limited to two Gerudo witches, or is that just your assumption?

Fyxe said

First you argue that all Gerudo traits are recessive, AS IF REAL WORLD GENETICS MATTERS and then you argue that a race of humans has come to exist simply due to having magic as a backup.

*gasp* So, real-world logic doesn't matter, but fantasy-world logic is inapplicable? How are we supposed to reason through anything?

Fyxe said

Besides, the dark rites was to bring back GANON, not the man Ganondorf. Ganondorf as a human has never been resurrected to our knowledge.

"Rise, Gerudo King!"

Fyxe said

Hey, what about in FSA, where they basically kick Ganondorf out despite him being the only way to breed?

Ever wonder why we don't see the Gerudo en masse after FSA?

Fyxe said

What about in Termina, where the Gerudos exist perfectly fine without any male leader?

The "female pirates" exist perfectly fine. We don't know if they're the only Gerudo, or even if there are no males.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 November 2006 - 12:49 PM.

[Arturo]

Come on, how would the Gerudos in FSA kick out their tribe very reason of existence.

[Fyxe]

LionHarted, on Nov 10 2006, 05:49 PM, said:

Is it limited to two Gerudo witches, or is that just your assumption?

No, it's limited to two Gerudo witches, because they're WITCHES.

Quote

*gasp* So, real-world logic doesn't matter, but fantasy-world logic is inapplicable? How are we supposed to reason through anything?

COMMON SENSE. You're the one who's causing the problem by just making up your own stupid logic where you see fit.

Quote

"Rise, Gerudo King!"

...My goddess. Please don't tell me I have to teach to you the connection between Ganondorf and Ganon now, do I? I fail to see how that line disproves ANYTHING I just said.

Quote

Ever wonder why we don't see the Gerudo en masse after FSA?

You really think they're that sodding stupid?

How on EARTH do they survive while Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm at the end of OoT, anyway? Yet they dance and cheer. Odd way to celebrate the death of their entire race and culture.

Quote

The "female pirates" exist perfectly fine. We don't know if they're the only Gerudo, or even if there are no males.

If there was intended to be a male we would have *seen* a male. We didn't, and there's no indication of one (they're a race of female-only pirates, it's told) so there isn't one.

I would now like to officially state that this is my last post on the matter. I have argued my point completely and unless you have an atom bomb of evidence to change my mind, you've lost, in my eyes.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 November 2006 - 01:03 PM.

[LionHarted]

Fyxe, on Nov 10 2006, 12:01 PM, said:

No, it's limited to two Gerudo witches, because they're WITCHES.

None of the other Gerudo can be witches? =/

Quote

COMMON SENSE. You're the one who's causing the problem by just making up your own stupid logic where you see fit.

Common sense says that red-haired and red-skinned traits are recessive, so the easiest way to preserve them is inbreeding.

Quote

How on EARTH do they survive while Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm at the end of OoT, anyway? Yet they dance and cheer. Odd way to celebrate the death of their entire race and culture.

Is it really impossible to think that they might have another male heir on the way already?

Quote

If there was intended to be a male we would have *seen* a male. We didn't, and there's no indication of one (they're a race of female-only pirates, it's told) so there isn't one.

Nope. Not a "race" of female-only pirates.

Just a group of female pirates, who happen to be Gerudo.

[Arturo]

You cannot use rules of genetics for Gerudos.

It's like saying that pointed ears are dominant, so the Hylñians sghould not disappear.

And how on erath would they get another heir?

They come very 100 years, and what do you want, parthenogenesis?

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Nov 10 2006, 12:12 PM, said:

You cannot use rules of genetics for Gerudos.

And I'M the one who's being illogical, because YOU are ignoring the rules?

Arturo said

And how on erath would they get another heir?

Because one's already been conceived, maybe?

Arturo said

They come very 100 years, and what do you want, parthenogenesis?

If you're talking about the MM Gerudo--no such rule is expressed; no such rule can be assumed to exist.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 November 2006 - 01:16 PM.

[Fyxe]

LionHarted has very interesting concepts surrounding time and pregnancy, clearly.

[LionHarted]

Fyxe, on Nov 10 2006, 12:16 PM, said:

LionHarted has very interesting concepts surrounding time and pregnancy, clearly.

It'd be nice if you'd actually say something of meaning, here. Ganondorf could easily be 100 or older by the time OoT ends, which would make them about due for another one.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 November 2006 - 01:23 PM.

[Arturo]

LionHarted, on Nov 10 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

And I'M the one who's being illogical, because YOU are ignoring the rules?

Nintendo is not famous because of their knowledge of the rules of nature. I remember in Mario Sunshine, where a boat in Bowser's lair moved in the wrong direction, ignoring basical laws of physics. And guess what? Nintendo made Zelda. So don't blame me for ignoring genetics

LionHarted, on Nov 10 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

Because one's already been conceived, maybe?

He's sealed in the Sacred Realm, maybe? Why do they celebrate Ganon is gone? Do they love dying out?

LionHarted, on Nov 10 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

If you're talking about the MM Gerudo--no such rule is expressed; no such rule can be assumed to exist.

No, I am talking about OoT Gerudos. They get a man every 100 years. Their only man is sealed. If they had to reproduce with him.... or are you suggesting that Gerudos can reproduce through parthenogenesis, like bees?

Edited by Arturo, 10 November 2006 - 06:37 PM.

[Raien]

How are we supposed to apply the rules of genetics AND ignore incest? That's inconsistent.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Nov 10 2006, 12:33 PM, said:

Nintendo is not famous because of their knowledge of the rules of nature.

That doesn't mean that we, as fans, get to say, "Gerudo traits must be dominant."

Arturo said

No, I am talking about OoT Gerudos. They get a man every 100 years. Their only man is sealed. If they had to reproduce with him.... or are you suggesting that Gerudos can reproduce through parthenogenesis, like bees?

Why couldn't Ganondorf have already sired a male child? We don't know how old he is; he could be anywhere from 30 to 300.

[Arturo]

Because it's fanficcious. There is no evidence for it and a lot against it. For example, where is him? why do the Gerudos say that all men apart from Ganondorf are useless if they already have another man in their tribe.

And if you want to argue about genetics, endogamy provokes multiple genteic problems, (all the European Royal families have passed these problems) like hemophilia or infertility or daltonism.... They wopuld eventually die out.

[LionHarted]

Arturo, on Nov 10 2006, 01:49 PM, said:

And if you want to argue about genetics, endogamy provokes multiple genteic problems, (all the European Royal families have passed these problems) like hemophilia or infertility or daltonism.... They wopuld eventually die out.

They'll eventually die out anyway, because they're constantly breeding with people who are not of their own kind. Endogamy is used to preserve traits; exogamy diversifies them. Within only a few generations, the Gerudo blood would have commingled with Hylian blood to the point that the amount of Gerudo blood in the remaining descendants would be negligible in comparison.

1st Generation Gerudo
Gerudo + Hylian = Gerudo-Hylian

2nd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo-Hylian + Hylian = Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4)

3rd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4) + Hylian = Gerudo (1/8)-Hylian (7/8)

etc. etc.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 November 2006 - 06:59 PM.

[Showsni]

It's a computer game. Nintendo thought "I know, let's have a race of female women. That sounds cool." They don't care about the logic behind it. There is no logic behind it. Stop looking for answers where there aren't any. The only hint they've thrown in is that Gerudoes come to Hyrule to look for bofriends. So, as that is all we know, it's what we have to use.
Nintendo don't care about genetics. For all we know, Gerudoes have magic genes that are all pased on directly to their daughters. They could be reproducing asexually for all we know.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Nov 11 2006, 12:05 AM, said:

They'll eventually die out anyway, because they're constantly breeding with people who are not of their own kind. Endogamy is used to preserve traits; exogamy diversifies them. Within only a few generations, the Gerudo blood would have commingled with Hylian blood to the point that the amount of Gerudo blood in the remaining descendants would be negligible in comparison.

1st Generation Gerudo
Gerudo + Hylian = Gerudo-Hylian

2nd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo-Hylian + Hylian = Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4)

3rd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4) + Hylian = Gerudo (1/8)-Hylian (7/8)

See, this is your thinking error. You assume that Gerudo genes behave equally to Hylian genes, so that there can be half-Gerudo and so on. But this is obviously not the case, rather the Gerudo genes are dominant over Hylian genes, so each child that a Hylian and a Gerudo sire together will become a pure-blood female Gerudo, with no Hylian genes at all. How this is possible? Maaagic.. Just the same as it is possible that the Gerudo only have one male born every hundred years.
Really, it could be so simple if you'd just accept the possibility of magic happening in Hyrule.

[Raien]

Lol. What I want to see is LionHarted write out what the conversation that he thinks the developers had when they decided the Gerudo commit incest. That would be funny...

Edited by jhurvid, 10 November 2006 - 08:32 PM.

[Fyxe]

And now do you see the importance of common sense in a discussion?

*bows* I thank you. ^^

[LionHarted]

Jumbie, on Nov 10 2006, 07:17 PM, said:

Really, it could be so simple if you'd just accept the possibility of magic happening in Hyrule.

Magic.

I can use magic to explain any lapse in logic.

[Chaltab]

I also theorize that 1) a new male will be born every 100 years regardless of whether the previous one is dead or just sealed away, and that 2) they might have a fail-safe that produces a second man automatically if the current one dies before coming of age to reproduce.

[LionHarted]

jhurvid, on Nov 10 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

Lol. What I want to see is LionHarted write out what the conversation that he thinks the developers had when they decided the Gerudo commit incest. That would be funny...

You're so hinged on the incest argument, even though Gerudo commit incest only to the same degree that any two human beings engaging in intercourse commit incest. A male having sex with a female of his own generation.

Since we all share a common ancestor, we're all committing incest.

Oh, knoes!

[Arturo]

Jumbie, on Nov 11 2006, 02:17 AM, said:

See, this is your thinking error. You assume that Gerudo genes behave equally to Hylian genes, so that there can be half-Gerudo and so on. But this is obviously not the case, rather the Gerudo genes are dominant over Hylian genes, so each child that a Hylian and a Gerudo sire together will become a pure-blood female Gerudo, with no Hylian genes at all. How this is possible? Maaagic.. Just the same as it is possible that the Gerudo only have one male born every hundred years.
Really, it could be so simple if you'd just accept the possibility of magic happening in Hyrule.

Jumbie, you are also commiting a thinking error. If Gerudos genes were dominant, we would have some Hylians descendants after the second generation.


The only explanation is.... magic. Their bloodline doesn't grow thin, unlike Hylian's. And this debate is a ridiculous.


COMMON SENSE, please

Thanks, Fyxe

[Chaltab]

Arturo, on Nov 11 2006, 09:35 AM, said:

Jumbie, you are also commiting a thinking error. If Gerudos genes were dominant, we would have some Hylians descendants after the second generation.
The only explanation is.... magic. Their bloodline doesn't grow thin, unlike Hylian's. And this debate is a ridiculous.
COMMON SENSE, please

Thanks, Fyxe

Magic or maybe their genetic material is somehow viral--it consumes all the genes of a newly conceived child and makes Gerudo genes, allowing her to keep the racial traits no matter who the father is.

[mmmmm_PIE]

Quote

1st Generation Gerudo
Gerudo + Hylian = Gerudo-Hylian

2nd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo-Hylian + Hylian = Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4)

3rd Generation Gerudo
Gerudo (1/4)-Hylian (3/4) + Hylian = Gerudo (1/8)-Hylian (7/8)

etc. etc.

Lolz, time to go back to biology class Lionharted:

Let's assume that all the pink skinned, bipedal, thumbed people of Hyrule can interbreed. By our earthly system of classification that makes them a single "species".
Let's then assume that there is (in some part) interbreeding between the three or four seperate habitations of humans in Hyrule (as the "boyfriends" quote suggests). By our earthly system of classification, that makes them a simgle "population"

In a hypothetical situation, let's remove:
Genetic Drift
Selection
Mutation
and
Migration
As these are things that we cannot gauge and have no evidence for in Hyrule.

The Hardy Weinberg prinicpal. The foundation of our worldly theories on population genetics, states that "the genotype frequencies at a single gene locus will become fixed at a particular equilibrium value which can can be represented as a simple function of the allele frequencies at that locus."

In layman's terms, the phenotypic (visible) occurance of these traites, whether dominant or recessive, will remain unwaveringly an an exact ratio. Neither trait (dominant or recessive) will become any more or any less prominant.

---
Using this, very common graph in my example calculations.

If there are exactly equal proportions of the Gerudo (Red hair) and Hylian (Brown hair) traits . 25% of the population will have brown hair and the genotye (HH), 50% will have brown hair and the Genotype (Hh), 25% will have red hair and the genotype (hh).
This will [b]never[b] change, regardless of the number of generations that pass.

If the brown hair (H) is twice as common as the red hair (h) then:
43% Borwn (HH)
43% Brown (Hh)
14% red (hh)
Regardless the breeding or generation.

In the situation I see most likely, about 70(h) to 30(H):
10% Brown (HH)
40% Brown (Hh)
50% red (hh)
Regardless of breeding or generation.

There is no scientific, developer suggested, or canoncial evidence to show that Gerudo must only breed with Gerudo.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Nov 11 2006, 05:45 AM, said:

You're so hinged on the incest argument, even though Gerudo commit incest only to the same degree that any two human beings engaging in intercourse commit incest. A male having sex with a female of his own generation.

Since we all share a common ancestor, we're all committing incest.

LMAO! That argument is so bad, I'm tempted to put it in my sig! You really have no clue about the problems of incest, do you?

Humans share 99% of our genes with monkeys. Yet with this percentage, our genes are still too different to successfully reproduce. Brother and Sister share almost 100% of the same genes but this percentage is far too similar to reproduce without the consequences of producing horribly mutated children. As long as the genes are within the boundaries, humans can successfully reproduce, even with distant relatives.

What you fail to understand is that there is a difference between incest and inbreeding. If the population is large enough within an isolated community, then individuals can make love with distant relatives and recycle the gene pool without causing any incest-related mutations. But with only one male to do all the breeding, inbreeding is impossible for the Gerudo to do alone because when the Gerudo have been born and grown up, they also have to be impregnated to provide the next generation of Gerudo and so on. The existence of one male makes inbreeding impossible, which leaves incest as the only possibility without involving the Hylians.

Seriously Lex, do the research before you post the crap.

Edited by jhurvid, 11 November 2006 - 12:54 PM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

If we're getting into this kind of discussion, let's keep the vocabulary straight.

Mankind shares over 98% of its genome with chimpanzees. But no where near 98% of its genes.

All but 3% of an organisms' DNA is non-coding sequence. It is sandwhich between peice of code called introns which are removed during the proces of protein syntheis, taking this "junk" code with it.
It has little to no effect on the nature of the organism.

Much of our junk is the same junk as the chimpanzee's junk, are gnomes are much alike, the active parts however, the genes, are enourmously different.

[Raien]

I have been pwned, lol. The second paragraph still stands nonetheless.

Edited by jhurvid, 11 November 2006 - 01:15 PM.

[SOAP]

I'm not getting into the whole Gerudo debate. I'm with Arturo that arguing on Gerudo genetics is completely ridiculus. I just wanted add something about Vertiboy's post earlier:

Vertiboy, on Nov 9 2006, 11:12 PM, said:

These are a list of the leaps of faith taken when dealing with the different theories regarding TWW.

Single Timeline Theory
1. Do Link and Tetra find a new Hyrule?/Does Hyrule come back after TWW?
2. Is the Triforce recovered after TWW?
3. Is Ganon revived/reborn after TWW?
4. Is the Master Sword recovered after TWW?

Split Timeline Theory
1. Does the Triforce of Courage somehow get cloned so it can exist in both the child and adult timelines?
2. Is the Legend of the Fairy non-canon?

My "What If?" Timeline Theory
1. Does one event happen differently after OoT (like Ganon escaping the Sacred Realm, etc.) that would lead to TWW instead of another game, like ALttP?

I know not everybody will agree with these. Some people are almost so confident in the single timeline theory that they will claim it is 100% a fact that Link and Tetra find a new Hyrule. If it is, there is no evidence in the game to suggest it's 100% true. Yes, things suggest it might happen, but not that it does happen.

You're the one assuming that a split timeline needs the ToC be cloned or the Legend of the Fairy in order to work. The only assumption a Single Timeliner makes is at what point does Link go in time (before or after the pulling of the mastersword). A very crucial assumption and one not to be taken lightly. Still only one assumption that can't yet be proven either way. Wheras your assumption is completely ridiculus and wrong anyways since TWW is also getting a sequel and a possibly a prequel (If the creators haven't changed their minds about TP's placement again). Why bother adding more games to a timeline that doesn't exist anyways?

Also someone refered to the Gerudo's a species. What the hell? They're humans. So are the Hylians.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Nov 11 2006, 04:33 AM, said:

I can use magic to explain any lapse in logic.

Then finally begin to do so, for the sake of it!! That's why Zelda is a fantasy series.

Arturo, on Nov 11 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

Jumbie, you are also commiting a thinking error. If Gerudos genes were dominant, we would have some Hylians descendants after the second generation.

Didn't you read that I said: "each child that a Hylian and a Gerudo sire together will become a pure-blood female Gerudo, with no Hylian genes at all. How this is possible? Maaagic.."

Or take this very nice quote by Chaltab:

Chaltab, on Nov 11 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

Magic or maybe their genetic material is somehow viral--it consumes all the genes of a newly conceived child and makes Gerudo genes, allowing her to keep the racial traits no matter who the father is.

That's plausible to be the case, if it isn't magic.

mmmmm_PIE, on Nov 11 2006, 05:29 PM, said:

Lolz, time to go back to biology class

I feel like I'm in the wrong forum.. Why not move this thread to Controversial?

SOAP, on Nov 11 2006, 10:18 PM, said:

Also someone refered to the Gerudo's a species. What the hell? They're humans. So are the Hylians.

This needed to be said.

[Mad Scrub]

Maybe it's a simple matter of if the baby looks like a Gerudo then the mother takes the baby and raises it as a Gerudo. If not the father takes the baby and raises it as a Hylian. From 1900 to 1969 Aboriginal children who had pale skin were known as half-caste's and were taken away from their families by Australian Government Agencies and Church Missions and brought up in White Man's society. These children were known as the stolen generation. Maybe something similar happens in Hyrule.