218 replies to this topic

[Korhend]

And I'm merely pointing out the Irony that in doing so your trying to influence him I'm not saying its wrong, just sort of amusing.

Concerning what you said about "better than Heaven" even I cannot grasp how great Heaven could be, and a statement like what you said is just bigotry on a whole new level, with all due respect.

If your going to resort to ad-hominem attacks, you could at least make them relevent, for example if I was to resort to ad-hominem attacks I would suggest you are unappreciative and unamerican.

[TheAvengerLever]

He's the one that created the place for the expressed purpose of sending us there if we do not bow down.

A. There's Nothing Wrong With Bowing Down

B. Hell was created to punish Satan.

If your going to resort to ad-hominem attacks, you could at least make them relevent, for example if I was to resort to ad-hominem attacks I would suggest you are unappreciative and unamerican.

Not to be attacking your personal beliefs, but if you were going to follow one I'd suggest following one that didn't relate to one of the most evil men in history, and I'd also like it if people quit making references that Jesus and Hitler are one person

Whilst Jesus spread a message of peace, a man by the name of Adolf Hitler spread a message of hate and murdered the people that God loves.

[Arturo]

A. There's Nothing Wrong With Bowing Down

B. Hell was created to punish Satan.

Hell and Heaven are not places, but staes, thus, they are no creations. Heaven is the communion of the soul with God while Hell is living eternally outside of God's love. While it's true that Jesus spoke of the Hell, we have no reason not to believe he was being metaphorical, as usually. And nowhere in the Bible it is said that Hell was created to punish Satan, as far as I remember, it doesn't say anything about it being created.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Not to be attacking your personal beliefs, but if you were going to follow one I'd suggest following one that didn't relate to one of the most evil men in history, and I'd also like it if people quit making references that Jesus and Hitler are one person

You're confusing Nazism with Fascism, though they are similar, I must add that fascism doesn't have a racial element to it.

The Nazi Party is banned.

The Fascist Party isn't and still exists.

You also failed to address that what Korhend said wasn't bigoted. Perhaps an apology is in order?

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 22 September 2006 - 04:07 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Facist and Totalitarianistic ideas were present in Hitler's dictatorship.

Sorry, Korhend!

Hell and Heaven are not places, but staes, thus, they are no creations. Heaven is the communion of the soul with God while Hell is living eternally outside of God's love. While it's true that Jesus spoke of the Hell, we have no reason not to believe he was being metaphorical, as usually. And nowhere in the Bible it is said that Hell was created to punish Satan, as far as I remember, it doesn't say anything about it being created.

Here you go

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Heaven is the communion of the soul with God

Only half right. Revelations describes heaven as being a place.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 22 September 2006 - 07:31 PM.

[Korhend]

Facist and Totalitarianistic ideas were present in Hitler's dictatorship.

First I would learn how to spell the Ideological movement you are attempting to smear. Second, I would point out that it was you not I that came to the defense of men such as Hanz Frank in previous threads. Third I would point out that Christ outweighs Hitler and perhaps even Marx in those whos name has been killed in.

[TheAvengerLever]

First I would learn how to spell the Ideological movement you are attempting to smear.

I'd learn not to be a grammar Nazi. It's a simple mistake, yet you blow it up like it matters.

Second, I would point out that it was you not I that came to the defense of men such as Hanz Frank in previous threads.

Speaking of spelling errors...By the way, I don't think I remember defending Hans Frank in previous threads. Perhaps it was done unconciously.

Third I would point out that Christ outweighs Hitler and perhaps even Marx in those whos name has been killed in.

Christ, unlike Hitler, did not command it himself to murder ones brother for self glorification and power. Christ taught to love one another.

[Arturo]

Here you go

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Ooops! I didn't remember that. Anyway, Jesus is known to have spoken alegoically many times. And seriously, do you expect Hell to be just fire?


It's just a simple way of explaining because Jesus was a man of his time, so he spoke like men from his time.
And can you imagine the Bible speaking about Heaven and Hell in spiritual terms. NO, because the Bible was written by men through God's inspiration, not by God himself. Do you remember the parable of the ten virgins? It's just an alegorical way of saying what I am saying now. Good people enter in a state opf communion with God while evil people have to live without God.

Only half right. Revelations describes heaven as being a place.

This starts to remember me too much to those Philadelphia adverts. Revelations was written by someone at the end of the 1st century, do you expect him to speak of the heaven in the same terms St John of the Cross (BTW, he comes from the same area as me)?

What I have just explained is the official teachings of the Catholic church, by one of the best theologists of our time, Joseph Ratzinger. I am not inventing it. And it certainly has more sense than thinking of hell as fire and heaven as that place with clouds and angels.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'd learn not to be a grammar Nazi. It's a simple mistake, yet you blow it up like it matters.

Says the person that started personal attacks against a member instead of actually debating the matter at hand.

What I find hilarious is that like in other threads I've seen about this programme, once again a Christian that takes offence at the program has either intentionally or unintentionally changed the topic.

Well, never mind.

For non-UK viewers the Doomsday Code is now available for viewing via the Information Clearing House:

http://www.informati...rticle15032.htm

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 23 September 2006 - 07:10 AM.

[Korhend]

I'd learn not to be a grammar Nazi. It's a simple mistake, yet you blow it up like it matters.

Its a revealing mistake, if you can't even spell what your trying to smear, it reveals your depths of ignorance on the subject of Fascism. If you claim its only a simple mistake, I'm sure you could for example, tell me Lawrence Dennis's explenation for aggressive capitalist states, if you claim to be well informed on the subject of Fascism.

Speaking of spelling errors...By the way, I don't think I remember defending Hans Frank in previous threads. Perhaps it was done unconciously.

You specifically said that Leopuld III, Torquemada and Hanz Frank should go to heaven, while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington should go to hell. I think one should be careful in tossing around accusations of Nazi Sympathy.

Edited by Korhend, 23 September 2006 - 10:55 AM.

[Ransom]

I think it clearly states in revelation that heaven will be a place.
after the tribulation God said he will make "a new heaven and a new earth" i think in this sentance, the new heaven represents sky and space, and the new earth represents what we have been referring to as heaven. If you have accepted Jesus as your saviour (simple choice) he promises us eternal life with him. and it will probably look a lot like the garden of eden described in genesis, when the wolrd was first made.

Except that he demands our love. Or we burn.

What hes not Allowed to demand our love?
Alright picture making some delicious cookies. You've made them in the purpose of eating them.
but then suddenly, the cookies decide they dont want to be eaten.
"we dont want to fulfill our true purpose maker, we have the right to choose!"
now what gives them the right to choose? i mean you made them?
its the same with us. However God gives us the right to choose anyway, just cos he loves us.
the choice is a gift, not a right.

[31-Year-Old-From-Georgia]

If a bunch of cookies told me they had free will and did not want to be eaten, I wouldn't eat them.

That was a horrible analogy, Ransom. Sorry.

Edited by 14-Year-Old, 23 September 2006 - 10:17 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

There's Nothing Wrong With Bowing Down

There is if you do it out of fear.

Alright picture making some delicious cookies. You've made them in the purpose of eating them.
but then suddenly, the cookies decide they dont want to be eaten.
"we dont want to fulfill our true purpose maker, we have the right to choose!"
now what gives them the right to choose? i mean you made them?

By that same logic, I can murder my kids if I want to. I made them, I decide their fate.

[TheAvengerLever]

Its a revealing mistake, if you can't even spell what your trying to smear, it reveals your depths of ignorance on the subject of Fascism. If you claim its only a simple mistake, I'm sure you could for example, tell me the Lawrence Dennis's explenation for aggressive capitalist states, if you claim to be well informed on the subject of Fascism.

Lawrence Dennis was the guy who wrote "Is Capitalism Doomed?" right? Hmm...I thought that though he was against capitalism but said that he couldn't think of a world without it...I could be wrong though. I don't think I've read any of his writings.

Fascism is wrong for many reasons, and for those who don't know...Hitler adopted Fascist and Totalitarianistic ideas for his Nazi Party. He brainwashed people and killed many innocents. But without him, no one would realize the horror that a fascist type government could do to other people. Hitler's suicide also illustrates how Fascist governments fail.

You specifically said that Leopuld III, Torquemada and Hanz Frank should go to heaven, while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington should go to hell. I think one should be careful in tossing around accusations of Nazi Sympathy.

Specifically, I argued that people who believe in Jesus and have accepted him as their savior are going to Heaven when they cease to live, no matter what earthly crime they have comitted. Don't twist my words. You think I'm a Nazi Sympathizer? No, I'm just going by my beliefs as a Christian. And we dislike Nazis very much.

Most people think that bowing to Jesus is a bad thing, and I don't see why that is. You've tried to explain that you need facts present in the case, when they're all laid out before you in the Bible.

Says the person that started personal attacks against a member instead of actually debating the matter at hand.

I apologized for that, thank you very much. I didn't mean to attack Korhend, I meant to illustrate the bad idea that is fascism. But apparently I messed it up and for that I apologize.

If a bunch of cookies told me they had free will and did not want to be eaten, I wouldn't eat them

You know you can't resist the cookies.

By that same logic, I can murder my kids if I want to. I made them, I decide their fate.

God made your babies.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 23 September 2006 - 11:15 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

God made your babies.

Apparently, neither you nor your god possesses any understanding of basic biology. Or logic thinking for that matter.

See, even if God had brought life to the fertilized egg, it was still I who fertilized the egg in the first place. Therefore, I created the resulting fetus. Unless of course you claim there is no free will, which destroys your entire argument about the choice of believing in Jesus.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 23 September 2006 - 11:33 AM.

[Korhend]

[quote name='TheAvengerButton' post='261280' date='Sep 23 2006, 04:13 PM']Lawrence Dennis was the guy who wrote "Is Capitalism Doomed?" right? Hmm...I thought that though he was against capitalism but said that he couldn't think of a world without it...I could be wrong though. I don't think I've read any of his writings.[/quote]
Proving my point that you haven't done any research on Fascism. How bout Gentile? Spirito? Mosely?

[quote]Fascism is wrong for many reasons, and for those who don't know...Hitler adopted Fascist and Totalitarianistic ideas for his Nazi Party. He brainwashed people and killed many innocents. But without him, no one would realize the horror that a fascist type government could do to other people. Hitler's suicide also illustrates how Fascist governments fail.[/quote]You've done nothing to back up your claim that Hitler was a fascist though, merely your own pigheaded insistence on it. I've provided at least some evidence that Hitler claimed himself a christian, can you find a single source where he claims to be fascist?

Specifically, I argued that people who believe in Jesus and have accepted him as their savior are going to Heaven when they cease to live, no matter what earthly crime they have comitted.[/quote]
In otherwords, what the Nazis did was okay because they were Christians.
[quote]Don't twist my words. You think I'm a Nazi Sympathizer? No, I'm just going by my beliefs as a Christian. And we dislike Nazis very much.[/quote]
But you think they deserve paradise, and that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Ghandi don't.

Edited by Korhend, 23 September 2006 - 12:28 PM.

[Selena]

Fascism is wrong for many reasons, and for those who don't know...Hitler adopted Fascist and Totalitarianistic ideas for his Nazi Party. He brainwashed people and killed many innocents. But without him, no one would realize the horror that a fascist type government could do to other people. Hitler's suicide also illustrates how Fascist governments fail.

Even if Hitler adopted Fascist ideals that does not mean that everyone who is a Fascist is out to commit genocide and enslave humanity. It's just a form of government. Forms of government are only as effective as the people in charge of them. As we can see in our own country. Every form has its flaws, and though I'm not exactly in favor of Fascism, that doesn't mean I'm going to condemn it as being wrong or evil.

And Hitler's suicide just demonstrates that he didn't want to be captured.

[TheAvengerLever]

Proving my point that you haven't done any research on Fascism. How bout Gentile? Spirito? Mosely?
You've done nothing to back up your claim that Hitler was a fascist though, merely your own pigheaded insistence on it. I've provided at least some evidence that Hitler claimed himself a christian, can you find a single source where he claims to be fascist?

Fascism is the philosophy that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Sounds very much like Hitler was a fascist. The National Socialism movement even started as a fascist movement in Europe.

In otherwords, what the Nazis did was okay because they were Christians.

You've provided no evidence at all that says that Hitler was a Christian, so I don't know why you're claiming you are. He was brought up by Catholic parents, yes, but he rejected the church at a young age. He made people believe that Christ was against the Jews. His private statements showed Hitler as a religious, but anti-Christian man.

But you think they deserve paradise, and that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Ghandi don't.

When did I ever say they deserved it? I don't even deserve it. No one on earth deserves to be with God because we are sinners. I'm just saying that if they've accepted Jesus into their hearts then they will go to Heaven.

And Hitler's suicide just demonstrates that he didn't want to be captured.

Hitler watched his Empire crumble before his very eyes. His death showed the world that a fascist government could never...EVER...work. And the world watched as his seemingly invincible empire died.

Apparently, neither you nor your god possesses any understanding of basic biology. Or logic thinking for that matter.

See, even if God had brought life to the fertilized egg, it was still I who fertilized the egg in the first place. Therefore, I created the resulting fetus. Unless of course you claim there is no free will, which destroys your entire argument about the choice of believing in Jesus.

Unless of course I claim that God gives life, he who created us. Is it not he who created us in the first place? If you were to argue that you make life, I can argue that God made man in the first place.

Even though Biology supports the belief in God.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 23 September 2006 - 02:07 PM.

[Selena]

His death showed the world that a fascist government could never...EVER...work.

I'd say it was more "Attacking the whole of Europe never EVER works" rather than government style. Your argument seems to be more against Hitler's personal ideologies and motives rather than how he actually ran his government when he was in power. The two, again, don't equal each other.

[TheAvengerLever]

I'd say it was more "Attacking the whole of Europe never EVER works" rather than government style. Your argument seems to be more against Hitler's personal ideologies and motives rather than how he actually ran his government when he was in power. The two, again, don't equal each other.

Through his reign, millions were killed, and over his ideology (which influenced how he ran his government.)

[Selena]

I don't think many will deny that, except for Mel Gibson.



But it's possible to do that with any form of government. So Fascism, at its core, isn't evil or wrong. Twitchy leaders with Jew complexes are.

[Hero of Legend]

Unless of course I claim that God gives life, he who created us. Is it not he who created us in the first place? If you were to argue that you make life, I can argue that God made man in the first place.

Whether God created man or not is irrelevant. According to Christianity, each individual has his own soul and decides his own fate. Therefore, the birth of a random child is just as important as the creation of Adam. And again, if I make a kid, I’m the one pulling the strings.

Even though Biology supports the belief in God.

Please, indulge me in this groundbreaking scientific discovery. I naturally assume you have actual evidence to back it up and won't resort to silly opinionated claims like your fellow cultists always do.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 23 September 2006 - 04:37 PM.

[Korhend]

Except that he wasn't Fascist so the argument falls apart. Watch how I can play around with this logic

"Hitler watched his Empire crumble before his very eyes. His death showed the world that a feudel government could never...EVER...work. And the world watched as his seemingly invincible empire died."

"Hitler watched his Empire crumble before his very eyes. His death showed the world that a green government could never...EVER...work. And the world watched as his seemingly invincible empire died."

"Hitler watched his Empire crumble before his very eyes. His death showed the world that a democratic government could never...EVER...work. And the world watched as his seemingly invincible empire died."

Oh wait, that last one might be true.

Naziism =/= Fascism

I've run into the same arguments so many times, I'm just going to copy an paste from the same argument I had on Civfanatics forums the other day

Fascism and Naziism were entirely distinct political ideologies. The only reason for their lumping together has been that they were allied. They had many similarities, but no more then they held with other totalitarian leaders such as Stalin.

Fascism thought sociologicaly. Nation and Culture were absolutely vital and critical to them. They saw nation-states as the primary division of the world and of human beings. A man is critically influenced by being Italian, or Austrian or whatever. They were the ultimate nationalists

Naziism thought biologically. Ones heritage and bloodline wree absolutely vital and critical to them. They were not Nationalists. Though they waved the flag around and spoke of Grossdeutscheland, this makes them no more a nationalist movement then communism for Stalin and Mao did the same thing. If we look at their ideology nation is really an unimportant boundary, as long as one is racially German one is German. Theres no greater evidence to this fact then that the leader of the Nazi state was not German, the party secretary was not German and the writer of the Nazi doctrine was again, not German. For them a pale, blonde haired, blue eyed man had the same characteristics as a German born and raised, for they saw someones Germanness (rather, Aryaness) as deriving not from German upbringing but of German Genetics. Thus we can see that rather then nationalist, Naziism was an international racial movement, designed to include Austrians, Germans, Latvians, Lithuaninans, Swedes, Norwegens, Danes, Flemmish, Swiss and each of these contries respective diasporas.

Edited by Korhend, 23 September 2006 - 04:52 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Whether God created man or not is irrelevant. According to Christianity, each individual has his own soul and decides his own fate. Therefore, the birth of a random child is just as important as the creation of Adam. And again, if I make a kid, I’m the one pulling the strings.

According to Christianity, we all belong to God.

Please, indulge me in this groundbreaking scientific discovery. I naturally assume you have actual evidence to back it up and won't resort to silly opinionated claims like your fellow cultists always do.

It's not groundreaking, it's just the fact that science doesn't disprove the Bible at all. In fact, a speaker came to my school the other day and disproved the theory of evolution using science itself.

Korhend, the definition isn't at fault: "Fascism is the philosophy that exalts nation and often race" It can be nation or race that is exalted, and in Hitler's case, Race. Hitler USED the ideas of fascism and totalitarianism in his government. It doesn't necessarily make him a fascist, ok?

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 23 September 2006 - 05:05 PM.

[Korhend]

It's not groundreaking, it's just the fact that science doesn't disprove the Bible at all. In fact, a speaker came to my school the other day and disproved the theory of evolution using science itself.

Shit, I can use YTMND to disprove the Bible
http://bnyepwnsreligion.ytmnd.com/

[Arturo]

It's not groundreaking, it's just the fact that science doesn't disprove the Bible at all. In fact, a speaker came to my school the other day and disproved the theory of evolution using science itself.

Oh my God!!! Creationism again not..... Evolutionism is a fact, and I have read much about it, and while I recognize it's not a perfect theory Creationism is simply un-scientific.

[TheAvengerLever]

Shit, I can use YTMND to disprove the Bible
http://bnyepwnsreligion.ytmnd.com/

Wow, that was pointless and doesn't disprove anything at all. The Bible says the lesser light rules the night, but that doesn't mean that the moon produces it's own light.

Oh my God!!! Creationism again not..... Evolutionism is a fact, and I have read much about it, and while I recognize it's not a perfect theory Creationism is simply un-scientific.

...it's a theory, as we can't prove whether or not we've evolved from monkeys.

[Arturo]

...it's a theory, as we can't prove whether or not we've evolved from monkeys.

Do you have any idea about how the Scientifical method works? If unproven, it's called hypothesis, if proved, it's called theory. And we didn't evlove from monkeys, they are just like our "cousins". And we DO have proofs, it's something called fossils.

[Selena]

Do you have any idea about how the Scientifical method works? If unproven, it's called hypothesis, if proved, it's called theory. And we didn't evlove from monkeys, they are just like our "cousins". And we DO have proofs, it's something called fossils.

I believe in evolution to, but I'm afraid this isn't correct. A hypothesis and a theory are, at the core, similar. Both are unproven. Theory's just a level up from hypothosis, at best. That's why you say 'this is theoretical' if you're unsure about something. If it's proven, it would be called a law. A law is the final, proven form.

And evolution is still just a theory, I'm afraid. Creationism and Evolution - neither of them can be proven at this current point in time. So you have to make your own choice in the matter from what evidence is out there. Or by faith.

[31-Year-Old-From-Georgia]

It's not groundreaking, it's just the fact that science doesn't disprove the Bible at all. In fact, a speaker came to my school the other day and disproved the theory of evolution using science itself.

That sounds interesting. What did he say?

Not that I'm anti-evolution and believe Darwin is an evil, evil man who got kicks out of watching Bibles burn, I just want to know what the guy said.

Edited by 14-Year-Old, 23 September 2006 - 05:31 PM.