218 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

http://www.channel4....s/doomsday.html

On Saturday, Channel 4, UK, a two-hour documentary was broadcast on the belief in the Rapture and all events relating to it. Now, I thought it was kinda overkill having two hours but the entire program was very interesting and done by Tony Robinson, a history buff and the guy that just happened to play Baldrick from the Black Adder series.

The programme went on to deal about what belief in the End Times was, how widespread it was, then on the damage it was doing to the Middle East, in Uganda and the environment, before going on about who wrote Revelations and its historical context.

It went on about how Bush's Administration is influenced by these End Timers, with one Evangelist Reverend claiming that the White House consistently asks it for opinions. To be fair, Mr. Robinson did point out that Bush's belief in the End Times is unknown and did portray the President as being in between a rock and a hard place (wanting to bring peace to Israel and Palestine, but also wanting to please the Fundamentalists that want Israel to get things the way it wants at the expense of the Palestinians).

To be fair, this didn't take up much of the program either.

The rest was on about how American Fundamentalists that believe in the literal End Times are/were financially supporting illegal Israeli settlements, financially supporting a guy that wants to tear down the mosques on the Temple Mount/Noble Sanctuary, buying up areas of Arab Jerusalem for Jews to live in and this one guy who wants to drain the oil away from Arab states by drilling in Israel because the Bible told him to.

It then went on about how popular End Time belief was in the US and about how it was even influencing people's views on the environment, with many End Time believers actively wanting to speed up the destruction of the environment to bring about Armageddon.

The last part talked about how End Time belief was undermining Uganda's AIDS efforts and education efforts, with one journalist, one everyday guy and one teacher all blaming a certain brand of Christianity (End Time belief Christianity) for the lack of motivation in the economic sector, for the deaths of a huge number of people in an End Time cult, and for pupils not being able to learn.

Both stated that belief in the End Times was somehow influencing Ugandans to pray for changes instead of acting for changes, with the teacher stating that parents were pulling children out to pray overnight so when they did attend school, they were too tired to pay attention.

Throughout the documentary, End Time believers were portrayed as genuinely nice people who genuinely believed in the End Times. They were allowed to say their part of the story, with a theologan from a Lutheran church talking about alternative meanings of the passages quoted.

In the end, the documentary dealt with who wrote the Book of Revelations and where, as well as attempting to put it in historical context. The documentary even suggests that the author of Revelations may have accidentally eaten some magic mushrooms prior to having the dream, although Mr. Robinson was keen to stress that it was only what some scholars thought.

The Book of Revelations is something of a black sheep, though, what with it not being accepted as a part of the New Testament for quite some time up until the Nicean Council, and even then not being fully accepted by people such as Martin Luther of the Reformation.

At the end of the documentary, Tony Robinson was convinced that End Time belief was dangerous and should not be ignored.

Certainly, I don't think the Book of Revelations should be thought of literally and no one should act on trying to speed things up. Thing is, the people portrayed as trying to speed things up, genuinely thought they were doing the work of God. It was scary, watching them go about their business with a smile on their faces, as they went around to bring about their almost paradoxical view.

[Fyxe]

I watched that. It was creepy. Robinson is right, many Doomsdayers desperately desire the Apocalypse and it's remarkable how much power they have without even realising it.

What worried me the most were the missionaries going to Africa and preaching belief in the Apocalypse. It strikes as horribly patronising and affects their attempts at improving their way of life.

The Book of Revelations does simply seem to be a simple allegory involving the Roman state and the emporer Nero (the Antichrist, 666 = Nero), so it's stunning how literal people take it.

I don't understand how people can take bits of the Bible literally while at the same time ignoring the rest of the bloody book.

[Oberon Storm]

Did it only focus on the U.S.?

I ask because Kevin Philips devoted about a third of his latest book on end times believers and their influence on American politics. He claimed that literal end time belief was larger in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world. I was wondering if that documentary was saying the same thing.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 18 September 2006 - 08:22 AM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Yep, mostly on the American Evangelists. It went on about Ugandan Evangelists later on, but talked about how Americans supported them.

[Fyxe]

It didn't just focus on that though. It focuses on how it had spread it's influence in Israel and in the African nations - mainly due to American influence, admittedly.

[SL the Pyro]

Huh. I guess that's why The Simpsons is lowering in quality... they've had one or two episode that at least have had a mention of the rapture in them.

[Delphi]

I believe in The End of Times and I also believe it is very near. The church I belong to believes it's very near also.

BUT my church also says this about The End of Times: Live like it could be tomorrow but work like the world will go on forever.

Basically: When it happens it happens and it will be unexpected. The whole phrase about the theif in the night reflects that I believe. Which is why we need to be ready for it, but also not run around like chickens with our heads cut off thinking the world is going to end tomorrow. The world is going to keep turning so as long as we're here, let's work like the end isn't even close. Meaning trying to find a cure for HIV and AIDS, helping other nations (not just Israel or Palestine, I mean like the third world countries.) But if it is tomorrow then be ready and make peace with yourself and your neighbors as best you can every day. It certainly would make things nicer even if the end of the world isn't tomorrow.

I also believe in the Signs of the Times and while there have been many that have come to pass there are still MANY more that have not. I'm not going to go actively seeking them or forcing them to come to pass either. I'm just not gonna screw with stuff like that. I think the wars in the Middle East is part of all this but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and let people slaughter each other either. Sitting back and just letting things happen isn't what we're supposed to be doing, in my opinion.

The environment issue? Well we don't know how far away the End of Times is (if you believe in it) so squandering the environment in the way of "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die," kind of way seems pretty stupid. Miscalculated when you thought it was going to happen and you killed all the trees? Whoops. You just killed oh...well what didn't you kill? I'm by no means an environmentalist. I'm more of a concervationalist which is why I live by the idea that the environment is here to be used (like lumber and water), but not abused (like clear cutting and not replanting trees or not preventing soil erosion after such an act).

I also think that things are going to turn sour for Israel very soon...I heard of a sign that said the world would turn against Israel (the chosen children of God, but now days it could also be taken literally).

The world is a very strange place to be right now, ne?

Okay, enough rambling from me for now.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Well, yes, but the environment issue isn't about destroying it. When it comes to the environment, they're strangely passive about it, in the same way you are passive about the End Times.

If it is going to happen, then let it happen.

Wouldn't it be a better idea, however, to stop the degradation of the environment from happening, which from your general rant, I presume is one of your desires?

[Alakhriveion]

Basically: When it happens it happens and it will be unexpected. The whole phrase about the theif in the night reflects that I believe. Which is why we need to be ready for it, but also not run around like chickens with our heads cut off thinking the world is going to end tomorrow. The world is going to keep turning so as long as we're here, let's work like the end isn't even close. Meaning trying to find a cure for HIV and AIDS, helping other nations (not just Israel or Palestine, I mean like the third world countries.) But if it is tomorrow then be ready and make peace with yourself and your neighbors as best you can every day. It certainly would make things nicer even if the end of the world isn't tomorrow.

Well, it isn't something that can happen just like THAT, bam, nobody saw nothing, unless you believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is about as not in the Bible as you can get.

I also believe in the Signs of the Times and while there have been many that have come to pass there are still MANY more that have not. I'm not going to go actively seeking them or forcing them to come to pass either. I'm just not gonna screw with stuff like that. I think the wars in the Middle East is part of all this but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and let people slaughter each other either. Sitting back and just letting things happen isn't what we're supposed to be doing, in my opinion.

Like what signs?

I also think that things are going to turn sour for Israel very soon...I heard of a sign that said the world would turn against Israel (the chosen children of God, but now days it could also be taken literally).

Nothing special. No matter how many times you drop a stone to the floor, you can never be sure that the next time, it will not instead rise to the ceiling, but you can be sure someone, somewhere, is planning a genocide, and the odds that Jews or Gypsys are involved are pretty fucking good.

The world is a very strange place to be right now, ne?

Well that's just late capitalism. We'll get over it.

[Fyxe]

The thing is, the world has been in worse distress than this. Need I mention the Second World War? Or even the first one? How about Genghis Khan plundering over half of the world and burning Beijing? The signs were all about the desired destruction of the Romans, anyway...

[TheAvengerLever]

The thing is, the world has been in worse distress than this. Need I mention the Second World War?

In WW2, Jews were killed. In the End Times, every race will have very large losses.

Well, it isn't something that can happen just like THAT, bam, nobody saw nothing, unless you believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is about as not in the Bible as you can get.

Does Luke 21:36 not speak to you at all?

Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

[Korhend]

In WW2, Jews were killed. In the End Times, every race will have very large losses.

23 Million Soviets
10 Million Chinese
5.9 Million Germans
4 Million Indonesians
2.6 Million Non-Jewish Poles
2.6 Million Japanese
1.6 Million Indians
1 Million Yugoslavs
1 Million Indochinese
451 Thousand Non-Jewish Italians
450 Thousand English
418 Thousand Americans
380 Thousand Non-Jewish Hungarians
229 Thousand Non-Jewish Greeks
212 Thousand Non-Jewish Lithuanians
205 Thousand Ethiopians
147 Thousand Non-Jewish Latvians
147 Thousand Philipinos
100 Thousand Malays
99 Thousand Non-Jewish Dutch
55 Thousand East Timorians
50 Thousand Singaporians

Total 62,537,400 casualties or 3.17% of the Entire worlds population.

[Goose]

Yay, we aussies live on.

[TheAvengerLever]

I don't understand your arguement.

[Selena]

In WW2, Jews were killed. In the End Times, every race will have very large losses.

Yeah, in the end. The very end. But she means at this exact moment. My qualms with the current world aside, I'd prefer to have this than hordes of barbarians running into my village and pillaging the goods and raping the women. Well, okay, that still technically happens in the third world, but the "Barbarian Horde Attacks" percentage worldwide has dropped quite a bit since the days of olde. Rather like pirate attacks.

Which puzzles me. Most of us live in a state of comfort and protection like no other generation has before us. Which means that surely the end is nigh. I really don't buy into the whole 'the end times cometh!' thing, regardless of my spiritual beliefs. My stepfather watched some really long video series on it recently, and it always just struck me as illogical, the way the evangelists rant about it. "Well, we've put several humanitarian laws into effect, increased literacy and knowledge, and gotten out of those accursed dark ages and left barbarian pillaging behind us, it's time for the world to blow up now." Unless it's all because of the amount of unbelievers in the world. But Christianity's spread so much since its creation. There's more Christians now than ever before, depsite how badly people seem to rant about the corruption of society.

The world's always going to have faults, but it seems entirely premature to end it now. Humanity hasn't even been around that long. And living in a state of paranoia about a coming apocalypse detracts from living a happy life. So at least wait until humanity really screws up before thinking we're all doomed. Otherwise, what's the point of siring a new generation if they're just going to die in the next few years, according to a great deal of evangelists? There's little to no motivation to continue living with that mindset.

It's just so utterly depressing that I wonder why people bother ranting about it. It's unvoidable, it's not like you can postpone it for when the big man really decides to do it. So I'd pretty much go with Delphi's viewpoint on the thing. She summed it up pretty well.

[Korhend]

I don't understand your arguement.

Every race had Tremendous losses during WWII the Jewish Holocaust making up out 11% of the casualties of WWII.

Yay, we aussies live on.

Oh right, 40,500 Aussies too.

[TheAvengerLever]

In the End Times, the 2.1 Billion people that are Christians will be gone. That leaves a lot of people still right? Well, not only will people die, but plants and animals will be destroyed as well all at once. A Third of the water will be turned to blood. Water will become bitter, and people will die from that. People will be tortured by locusts for five months. A third of mankind will be killed by the Horsemen who are sent out. There would probably be numerous accidents or suicides, and the torture of all of the people who have the Mark of the Beast by the plagues from the Seven Bowls of Wrath.

People, you think you live in bad times, but it gets worse.

[Alakhriveion]

Does Luke 21:36 not speak to you at all?

Does Luke 21:36 have anything to do with this at all? "Hope you don't get too badly fucked up" and "God uses teleporters" are not equivalent.

[Wanchimaera]

I think he meant Luke 21:35. "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

[Nevermind]

Nah, it would not be a wham-bam done kind of thing. I wouldn't be able to explain it, but I've had the Time Prophecy explained to me and it's not too bad actually. Something about Futurists....and two other types of people, each one pertaining as to when they believe the end times will come. The most believable, I think, being that of the Time Prophecy and its reference to the End Times being in process at the moment, with the "marking of head or hand" as oppose to the "marking of head AND hand", the true Sabbath, and the diabolical plans of the Catholic Church, and its Antichrist Pope.

Radical yeah, but it's the best (read: best-matching) one I've heard so far.

[Chikara Nadir]

Way I figure it- if the Rapture happens, and all who are believers and people who have lived a life devoted to goodness end up being taken away to Heaven, that's a good thing.

Doesn't mean that they, or anyone else, should get away with making hell on Earth until then. *nod*

[Fyxe]

In the End Times, the 2.1 Billion people that are Christians will be gone. That leaves a lot of people still right? Well, not only will people die, but plants and animals will be destroyed as well all at once. A Third of the water will be turned to blood. Water will become bitter, and people will die from that. People will be tortured by locusts for five months. A third of mankind will be killed by the Horsemen who are sent out. There would probably be numerous accidents or suicides, and the torture of all of the people who have the Mark of the Beast by the plagues from the Seven Bowls of Wrath.

People, you think you live in bad times, but it gets worse.

PRAAAAYISE THE LOOOORD.

...

Revelations was all about the Romans. The Seven Heads of the Beast represents the seven councellors in Jerusalem. The Mark of the Beast that means you cannot trade without using the Mark represents the currency of the Romans and 666 means Nero, the mad Emporer Nero.

It's all about the destruction of the Roman empire. It's very simple, actually.

[Arturo]

PRAAAAYISE THE LOOOORD.

...

Revelations was all about the Romans. The Seven Heads of the Beast represents the seven councellors in Jerusalem. The Mark of the Beast that means you cannot trade without using the Mark represents the currency of the Romans and 666 means Nero, the mad Emporer Nero.

It's all about the destruction of the Roman empire. It's very simple, actually.

I am a catholic and don't believe in the End of Times, I just think that when we die we go through the judge, but nno divin world destruction (we don't need his help to do it ).

Scientifical studies prove the Revelations is full of critics to the Roman Empire. And the name of the Beast was 636 on the first copies we have of the book, the number of an emperor I think is Caligula, one of Christians favourites. And I think the seven heads are the seven hills of Rome (one of them is the Vatican one )

But no End of Times.

[Nevermind]

PRAAAAYISE THE LOOOORD.

...

Revelations was all about the Romans. The Seven Heads of the Beast represents the seven councellors in Jerusalem. The Mark of the Beast that means you cannot trade without using the Mark represents the currency of the Romans and 666 means Nero, the mad Emporer Nero.

It's all about the destruction of the Roman empire. It's very simple, actually.

Unless, of course, the seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills, basically representing the starting point of the beast itself; and the mark of the beast represents a misleading system. Also, I'd be curious to know how 666 = Nero.


Basically, if it was very simple, there would not be so much argument/controversy/interpretation of it.

[arunma]

The Book of Revelations is something of a black sheep, though, what with it not being accepted as a part of the New Testament for quite some time up until the Nicean Council, and even then not being fully accepted by people such as Martin Luther of the Reformation.

It's always unfortunate when an otherwise interesting post is marred by false information such as this (no offense to you Wolf, but the above statement is false. The Nicene Council did not canonize the Bible. In fact, the Nicene Council had nothing to do with the Biblical canon. The Council met primarily to discuss the Arian and Passover controversies.

[SL the Pyro]

If this keeps up, I'm gonna start playing war music.

[Nevermind]

It's always unfortunate when an otherwise interesting post is marred by false information such as this (no offense to you Wolf, but the above statement is false. The Nicene Council did not canonize the Bible. In fact, the Nicene Council had nothing to do with the Biblical canon. The Council met primarily to discuss the Arian and Passover controversies.

But Da Vinci Code told me it was true!

[TheAvengerLever]

PRAAAAYISE THE LOOOORD.

...

Revelations was all about the Romans. The Seven Heads of the Beast represents the seven councellors in Jerusalem. The Mark of the Beast that means you cannot trade without using the Mark represents the currency of the Romans and 666 means Nero, the mad Emporer Nero.

It's all about the destruction of the Roman empire. It's very simple, actually.

Since the Book of Revelations is filled with things that we can't decide are symbolism or are future predictions then you can believe what you want to believe. But I'm going to believe it is something that is going to happen and that's the way I'm going to preach it.

Also, I'd be curious to know how 666 = Nero

The belief that Revelations was reffering to Nero came about when some guy decided to mathematically connect the numbers to Nero's name and made more people speculate as to whether John was talking about him or some future event (which...sounds way more interesting to begin with) Anyway, if someone knows how he did it, please post it here.

[Chikara Nadir]

But Da Vinci Code told me it was true!

Exactly what I was thinking. Yay for Hollywood, our new religious source!

[Fyxe]

But I'm going to believe it is something that is going to happen and that's the way I'm going to preach it.

Don't preach it.