76 replies to this topic

[Alardonin]

Maybe I should've posted this in Zelda General rather, but due to the recent rush-hour over there and the dead-silence here I decided to put it here. Also, we debated about this in the TMC thread not long ago, so it does fit in here.

So, by coincidence I came upon a neat explanation of what the Light Force could be (in case it's really not the Triforce):

The "chosen ones" must be Link and Zelda who received the Light Force in TMC's backstory. Seeing as Zelda is able to create the Light Arrows also in FSA where she doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom, the best explanation why she can do it would be the Light Force that is passed on in the female bloodline of the Royal Family.
Of course, the Light Force is not only used to bestow the magic of light on arrows but Zelda can also build up a sphere of light around herself (as seen in TMC) which is however too feeble to repel evil powers.

Now what about you? Are you okay with the idea that Light Force and Light Arrows, both of which have to do with the chosen ones, have a connection to each other, or would you rather say that's just another rash conclusion of my raving mind?

Thats not such a bad theory at all Jumbie,but the so called light force could be referring to a power that only the hylia royal family has,a power that was once practiced and used by all the Hylia like your saying.But it could be even more than that,i mean psychic powers and every single clue of such time,like my fanfiction of the time of "The loss of the great magic",like ive told in other threads.I have forgotten,but the minish cap like you are saying also has references to such a time.

Or it could simply be the light force,wich i could see it not being the triforce,but at the same time i wouldnt see why not.There is a line in TMC in wich Vaati says "the golden light force" i dont know about you but golden sounds fishy.And like many of you said like you and fyxe and so many others have repeated,believe that the master sword is the four sword,and i dont see any reason why i shouldnt regard that rumor being possible,when it can actually work in [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of ways.

I think it actually works but there is a catch,like i stated i have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of timelines for the legends but there is one thing that i actually believe in the legends,and that is that the hylia were the forgers of the master sword.Now if that was the case how can i believe that the four sword is the master sword since it is told that the Picori were the creators of it.

The only explanation i could find,is that the hylia were the makers of the master sword and the only thing that the Picori had done,was fusing the master sword in the four elements does creating a totaly diferent sword in the same sword.

See it like this,the lore of the creation of the master sword got lost along with the lore of the creators of the triforce the godesses.We all know that the lore of the master sword is very close with the lore of the triforce, because the master sword was made with the purpose of reflecting its powers.The picori could have offered a sword not created by them,but offering them a sword infused with the four elements that the picori themselfs had done.This would make the hylia or the lore actually believe that the picori were the creators of the blade,when in fact they were not.They were only responsible for the infusion of the four elements.

Of course if this had any chance of being the truth,i would say that they would believe the picori to be the creators of the triforce as well in this case the light force,Because we all know that the master sword lore ties close to the lore of the triforce there might have happened a major mixed up in the overall lore.

[Jumbie]

Or it could simply be the light force,wich i could see it not being the triforce,but at the same time i wouldnt see why not.There is a line in TMC in wich Vaati says "the golden light force" i dont know about you but golden sounds fishy.

Exactly, and I didn't have any doubts about the Light Force being the Triforce for a long time. At the moment I'm just open for both possibilities. This thread was an attempt to explain in which ways the Light Force could reappear in other games, assuming it is not the Triforce.

And like many of you said like you and fyxe and so many others have repeated,believe that the master sword is the four sword,and i dont see any reason why i shouldnt regard that rumor being possible,when it can actually work in [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of ways.

Wait, I don't think it would be so good to equate the Master Sword and Four Sword as the same thing! It may be possible *somehow*, yes, but then you'd have to ignore the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA (which shows that the Four Sword is something different from the Master Sword), and all games with the Master Sword in them would have to happen before TMC. Quite complicated, don't you think.

The picori could have offered a sword not created by them,but infused with the four elements that the picori themselfs had done.

Well, nowhere in TMC does it say that the original Picori Blade had actually been infused with the Four Elements before. But as it can apparently only be repaired by infusing the Elements, it's likely that it has.
And I don't think that the Minish "made" the Elements. In many other RPGs and real world philosophy, the 4 Elements are like spirits of nature, so I don't see why it would be different in Zelda.

There's also a theory that the Picori Blade started off as the Kokiri Sword, or better put, the Gilded Sword which it became during MM. The Gilded Sword would've only needed a few more strokes of the Minish people to become a sacred blade. But of course, all of this requires the placement of TMC after OoT/MM.

Edited by Jumbie, 05 September 2006 - 04:22 PM.

[Alardonin]

Exactly, and I didn't have any doubts about the Light Force being the Triforce for a long time. At the moment I'm just open for both possibilities. This thread was an attempt to explain in which ways the Light Force could reappear in other games, assuming it is not the Triforce.

Wait, I don't think it would be so good to equate the Master Sword and Four Sword as the same thing! It may be possible *somehow*, yes, but then you'd have to ignore the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA (which shows that the Four Sword is something different from the Master Sword), and all games with the Master Sword in them would have to happen before TMC. Quite complicated, don't you think.
Well, nowhere in TMC does it say that the original Picori Blade had actually been infused with the Four Elements before. But as it can apparently only be repaired by infusing the Elements, it's likely that it has.
And I don't think that the Minish "made" the Elements. In many other RPGs and real world philosophy, the 4 Elements are like spirits of nature, so I don't see why it would be different in Zelda.

There's also a theory that the Picori Blade started off as the Kokiri Sword, or better put, the Gilded Sword which it became during MM. The Gilded Sword would've only needed a few more strokes of the Minish people to become a sacred blade. But of course, all of this requires the placement of TMC after OoT/MM.

Im sorry Jumbie i´ve never complited the secret dungean located in the pyramid of power,if its not to much of a hassle could you perhaps elaborate on it,i didnt think it would show something that important to the timeline.And its not really important if the picori were the makers of the elements but perhaps they were the only ones to be able to fuse the sword with the four elements.If there is anything in that dungean that could desprove of this i woulndt mind if you told me that would at least put to rest my ignorence on regarding the possible theory of the master sword being the four sword.Also your not talking about them having possible diferent pedestals as proff of their diference?if you dont mind could you or anyone talk to me about this.

[coinilius]

Wait, I don't think it would be so good to equate the Master Sword and Four Sword as the same thing! It may be possible *somehow*, yes, but then you'd have to ignore the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA (which shows that the Four Sword is something different from the Master Sword), and all games with the Master Sword in them would have to happen before TMC. Quite complicated, don't you think.

Well, the Picori Blade as depicted in the opening of TMC is very similar in appearance to the Master Sword design Capcom used on the title screen for the ALttP remake.





Also, the Picori Blade is remastered into the White Sword - in the Oracle games in Japan, the Noble Sword was known as Huwaito Soodo, which translates as White Sword. Depending on how you play through the Oracles, the Noble Sword can be upgraded into the Master Sword...

One could almost be convinced

[Alardonin]

Well, the Picori Blade as depicted in the opening of TMC is very similar in appearance to the Master Sword design Capcom used on the title screen for the ALttP remake

Also, the Picori Blade is remastered into the White Sword - in the Oracle games in Japan, the Noble Sword was known as Huwaito Soodo, which translates as White Sword. Depending on how you play through the Oracles, the Noble Sword can be upgraded into the Master Sword...

One could almost be convinced

Yes that is very true coinilius i also forgot to mention that.Altought i didnt know about the misinterpretation in the translation,i guess im quite the ignorant guy when it falls to that,I´ve realized that since i arrived into this forums.I guess ill have to do some reserch more outside of the view that i have of the legends from solely playing the games,but still i dont know what is shown in the dungeon that could definitely desprove the master sword being the four sword.

[Fyxe]

Also, the Picori Blade is remastered into the White Sword - in the Oracle games in Japan, the Noble Sword was known as Huwaito Soodo, which translates as White Sword.

Is this true? That's a fairly big deal. Obviously, with so many references to the original TLoZ in the Oracle games, it makes sense that along with the Wooden Sword we get the White Sword.

I do think the White Sword is just a name and not much more than that, but it's interesting that the Noble Sword is more important that we once knew.

Also, if anything it kinda messes up Jumbie's theory that the White Sword in TMC is the same White Sword in TLoZ. It seems likely that it's just a reused name and item more than anything. Still, it's interesting.

[coinilius]

Is this true? That's a fairly big deal. Obviously, with so many references to the original TLoZ in the Oracle games, it makes sense that along with the Wooden Sword we get the White Sword.

I do think the White Sword is just a name and not much more than that, but it's interesting that the Noble Sword is more important that we once knew.

Also, if anything it kinda messes up Jumbie's theory that the White Sword in TMC is the same White Sword in TLoZ. It seems likely that it's just a reused name and item more than anything. Still, it's interesting.

Yes, that name is true.

[Jumbie]

Im sorry Jumbie i´ve never complited the secret dungean located in the pyramid of power,if its not to much of a hassle could you perhaps elaborate on it,i didnt think it would show something that important to the timeline.

Well, I haven't had the chance to play this dungeon either, but from what Fyxe told, the Four Sword appears in it split into four and left with four Dark Links who you have to defeat. I think in the end the swords reunite to one again. Other than that, there's nothing of importance, it just shows that the Four Sword is something different from the Master Sword since Link holds the latter in has hands while collecting parts of the first.

Also your not talking about them having possible diferent pedestals as proff of their diference?if you dont mind could you or anyone talk to me about this.

I'm not sure what you mean.. In the Palace of the Four Sword, there are no real pedestals, I think.

Also, the Picori Blade is remastered into the White Sword - in the Oracle games in Japan, the Noble Sword was known as Huwaito Soodo, which translates as White Sword. Depending on how you play through the Oracles, the Noble Sword can be upgraded into the Master Sword...

I'm very amazed coinilius, as always when you reveal something to us!

Also, if anything it kinda messes up Jumbie's theory that the White Sword in TMC is the same White Sword in TLoZ. It seems likely that it's just a reused name and item more than anything.

That's true, sadly. As you say, Oracles was full of references to LoZ which were not storyline-related, but TMC.. I don't know, after all it's also made by Capcom.. Have to think about that

[coinilius]

I'm not sure what you mean.. In the Palace of the Four Sword, there are no real pedestals, I think.

Man, it's been such a long time since I played through the Palace of the Four Sword...

Anyway, the PotFS is divided up into two different levels, with two swords to collect on each level. The swords are gaurded by pimped-out versions of various bosses from ALttP. The four swords (green handle, red handle, blue handle, purple handle) are in pedestals that you pick them up out of. When you have all four, you can the proceed to the final room where the four swords fly out of you to the four corners of the room. Then, one by one you will have to face four Shadow Links (one for each colour, sword). Defeat them and the four swords will fly around you, then into you, ending with Link in the 'holding sword up' position. Cue alternate credits sequence.

I'm very amazed coinilius, as always when you reveal something to us!

Just glad to add to be adding to the great theorizing that goes on here

[Jumbie]

Defeat them and the four swords will fly around you, then into you, ending with Link in the 'holding sword up' position. Cue alternate credits sequence.

Hm, so he has the Four Sword in the end, and then it's actually The End which shows the Dark World intact as a world where Ganon lives and rules.. Sounds really like an 'alternate ending' in the literal sense. I mean, in the sense that it's canon to have happened, but since it seems to prevent the 'good ending' of ALttP to happen, I'd say it just branches off another split timeline, wouldn't you think?
..Haha, just kidding, I'm being very silly right now, I really belong into bed..

Just glad to add to be adding to the great theorizing that goes on here

Thanks, and please keep those small Japanese translations coming

[coinilius]

Hm, so he has the Four Sword in the end, and then it's actually The End which shows the Dark World intact as a world where Ganon lives and rules.. Sounds really like an 'alternate ending' in the literal sense. I mean, in the sense that it's canon to have happened, but since it seems to prevent the 'good ending' of ALttP to happen, I'd say it just branches off another split timeline, wouldn't you think?

I know you're being silly, but... the 'alternate ending' isn't much of an ending anyway, as it just runs through the credits and shows all the Dark World levels with a bunch of enemies in front of them, then runs through all the Dark World bosses. You can look at screenshots of it at the Video Game Musuem if you're interested (link goes straight to ending). It's more of an alternate credits sequence than an alternate ending. Link can always then go and mop the floor with Ganon after finishing the PotFS (well, in theory, as you the player can never do that in one 'session' as it were).

See you tomorrow

[Alardonin]

Other than that, there's nothing of importance, it just shows that the Four Sword is something different from the Master Sword since Link holds the latter in has hands while collecting parts of the first.

I'm not sure what you mean.. In the Palace of the Four Sword, there are no real pedestals, I think.

Well if the above is correct,then there is no use arguing about the pedestals.I could go on about how that might have been an error,and be a cry baby about this for the rest of the day ,but if you did have the master sword while collecting the four sword then i guess thats proff enought.

O well one less layer in the legends to argue about,altought [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of things and clues like coiniilius was showing and what i was saying,still remain fishy.

Man, it's been such a long time since I played through the Palace of the Four Sword...

Anyway, the PotFS is divided up into two different levels, with two swords to collect on each level. The swords are gaurded by pimped-out versions of various bosses from ALttP. The four swords (green handle, red handle, blue handle, purple handle) are in pedestals that you pick them up out of. When you have all four, you can the proceed to the final room where the four swords fly out of you to the four corners of the room. Then, one by one you will have to face four Shadow Links (one for each colour, sword). Defeat them and the four swords will fly around you, then into you, ending with Link in the 'holding sword up' position. Cue alternate credits sequence.
Just glad to add to be adding to the great theorizing that goes on here

Thanks for claring that up coinilius .

I'd say it just branches off another split timeline, wouldn't you think?
..Haha, just kidding, I'm being very silly right now, I really belong into bed..
Thanks, and please keep those small Japanese translations coming

O noes!!!dont even kid about that Jumbie

[Jumbie]

It's more of an alternate credits sequence than an alternate ending. Link can always then go and mop the floor with Ganon after finishing the PotFS (well, in theory, as you the player can never do that in one 'session' as it were).

Hmm, I just remember, isn't it required to have beat both FS and ALttP before you can enter the PotFS? Or is it only FS? Because, if Link has to have defeated Ganon before entering the dungeon, it would really look like a purely theoretical part of the story..

O noes!!!dont even kid about that Jumbie

I have gone to where it really hurts, huh

[Fyxe]

Link does have to have beaten Ganon to enter the PotFS, as well as beating Four Swords. But since the game resets to the last save *before* you beat Ganon, it means that when it comes to the timeline, Link enters the PotFS before beating Ganon.

When you beat it, you get a little Four Sword icon in your inventory, I believe. Basically it means Link goes and gets the Four Sword before beating Ganon, but the player just can't do it the first time around. Why? Because the bosses in the PotFS are much harder than Ganon, so it'd be a bit harsh for newbies.

[Jumbie]

Thanks Fyxe. Yes, that makes sense about Link playing the PotFS before duelling Ganon!

When you beat it, you get a little Four Sword icon in your inventory, I believe.

Could this mean that Link carries the Four Sword with him, or is the sword seen to remain in the dungeon?

[Fyxe]

Actually, I'm not sure about that Four Sword icon... I think it appears on the file selection screen, not in his inventory. The four different parts of the Four Sword remain in Link's inventory. There is nothing remaining in the PotFS if you return to it, but with the four seperate blades you can re-fight the Dark Links, restore the sword and watch the extra ending again and again, like with Ganon. You can't actually get the FS and then go on to fight Ganon because you get the extra ending and the FS doesn't get saved.

But I think we're just meant to assume that Link gets it before fighting Ganon, but doesn't use it.

[coinilius]

Actually, I'm not sure about that Four Sword icon... I think it appears on the file selection screen, not in his inventory. The four different parts of the Four Sword remain in Link's inventory. There is nothing remaining in the PotFS if you return to it, but with the four seperate blades you can re-fight the Dark Links, restore the sword and watch the extra ending again and again, like with Ganon. You can't actually get the FS and then go on to fight Ganon because you get the extra ending and the FS doesn't get saved.

But I think we're just meant to assume that Link gets it before fighting Ganon, but doesn't use it.

I thought you got a strange looking pyramid-like icon on the file select screen, rather than a sword icon. In any case, beating the Palace of the Four Sword is like beating Ganon - you can't save after beating the four shadow Links, so you can always go back and replay them to rewatch the 'ending' scene. It works best to just think that Link gets it before beating Ganon, but doesn't use it. Maybe it's lost it's power after being broken and needs to be infused with the Four Elements again?