76 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

Jumbies original assertion wasn't that the Light Arrows were the Light Force itself, transposed out of the Princesses body, but that the Light Force was what the Princesses used to create the Light Arrows - that was the connection between them.

Nope. He suggests that the Light Arrows themselves were given to the chosen ones:

The "chosen ones" must be Link and Zelda who received the Light Force in TMC's backstory.

Umm. No. Not must. There is no connection between TMC and OoT other than the inclusion of the Light Arrows, which are obviously an optional item to begin with. If the Arrow of Light is the power given to the chosen ones, that is how it is. It is stated as being given directly to them, not indirectly through the Light Force.

Edited by LionHarted, 15 August 2006 - 12:26 AM.

[coinilius]

Nope. He suggests that the Light Arrows themselves were given to the chosen ones:
Umm. No. Not must. There is no connection between TMC and OoT other than the inclusion of the Light Arrows, which are obviously an optional item to begin with. If the Arrow of Light is the power given to the chosen ones, that is how it is. It is stated as being given directly to them, not indirectly through the Light Force.

But he also refers to the 'chosen ones' as being the 'Link and Zelda who recieved the Light Force in TMC's bacstory.'

The "chosen ones" must be Link and Zelda who received the Light Force in TMC's backstory.

And goes on with:

Seeing as Zelda is able to create the Light Arrows also in FSA where she doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom, the best explanation why she can do it would be the Light Force that is passed on in the female bloodline of the Royal Family.

So he suggests that creating Light Arrows is an on-going process of the Royal Family in multiple games, FSA, OoT, TWW etc. He also says himself later on to explain the Light Arrows in TMC:

I knew that question was still open It's easy: when the Wind Tribe still lived on the ground, they were close friends with the Hylian Royal Family. So probably the Light Arrows went to the Wind Tribe as a gift from an earlier Princess Zelda (who is certain to have existed as she is depicted on stained glass).

He knows that the Light Force and the Light Arrows exist at the same time in TMC. He also never says that they ARE each other, just that they are possibly 'connected' to each other.

Now what about you? Are you okay with the idea that Light Force and Light Arrows, both of which have to do with the chosen ones, have a connection to each other, or would you rather say that's just another rash conclusion of my raving mind?

[LionHarted]

So he suggests that creating Light Arrows is an on-going process of the Royal Family in multiple games, FSA, OoT, TWW etc. He also says himself later on to explain the Light Arrows in TMC:
He knows that the Light Force and the Light Arrows exist at the same time in TMC. He also never says that they ARE each other, just that they are possibly 'connected' to each other.

The problem is: the Light Arrows were "given" to the chosen ones. Not made by them.

[Fyxe]

I suggest you act as mature as possible around him. He takes timeline discussion very seriously.

Oh, great, bringing more of your friends to consume our board in over-obsessiveness? Tell you what, can you tell them to stop reviving old threads at the same time? I don't mean this one.

[Jumbie]

I suggest you act as mature as possible around him. He takes timeline discussion very seriously.

Ah, you know LionHarted - so he comes from your department too? That explains why his style of arguing has looked eerily familiar to me from the start... Nothing against you two, but your priorities for the different kinds of evidence are dangerous, at times.

Personally, I always prefered the Silver Arrows to the Light Arrows anyway

Lol, exactly my words! (I was only too cowardly to write it out loud here...)

Based on the evidence presented, the Light Force has to be the Light Arrows for there to be a connection based on the "chosen one" quote.

If the Light Arrows represent the Light Force, they are not "embodied in Hyrule's princess" if they are in the possession of the Wind Tribe, and therefore, we have a consistency error.

That's not true. Coinilius explained this for me, and all his words were correctly giving my intention. In fact, it's a nice unknown feeling to be supported, for a change, or at least respected for what one is saying. Would you like to be my lawyer, coinilius?

He suggests that the Light Arrows themselves were given to the chosen ones
It is stated as being given directly to them, not indirectly through the Light Force.

The problem is: the Light Arrows were "given" to the chosen ones. Not made by them.

Not the Arrows themselves were given to them, but only the power to create them. This is what I interpret from OoT Zelda's quote, as I see no reason why Zelda should receive some Light Arrows out of the blue. She did obviously use the power of the chosen ones, the Light Force, to create them.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 August 2006 - 07:21 PM.

[LionHarted]

Not the Arrows themselves were given to them, but only the power to create them. This is what I interpret from OoT Zelda's quote, as I see no reason why Zelda should receive some Light Arrows out of the blue. She did obviously use the power of the chosen ones, the Light Force, to create them.

The quote says that she was given the Light Arrows. The Arrow of Light IS the "power given to the chosen ones." There is no room for interpretation in that quote.

[Jumbie]

The quote says that she was given the Light Arrows. The Arrow of Light IS the "power given to the chosen ones." There is no room for interpretation in that quote.

There is room, like always. And what does "given" mean? Open up a dictionary and look how many different connotations the word "to give" can have. Sorry, but it's just an illusion that there is always only one straight reading to the game texts!

[LionHarted]

There is room, like always. And what does "given" mean? Open up a dictionary and look how many different connotations the word "to give" can have. Sorry, but it's just an illusion that there is always only one straight reading to the game texts!

Primary definitions (summarized): To bestow or confer (all definitions--physically bestow, as in a giving of gifts or any other changing of hands, or metaphorically, as in a giving of rights), to attribute or assign (as in a giving of blame or thanks), to submit, to perform (as in a recital), to yield or produce.

None of these definitions supports that interpretation.

[Jumbie]

None of these definitions supports that interpretation.

It's totally simple. Let's say, I give you a car key. Now, this key gives you the ability to travel from Town A to Town B much faster than on foot, since through the key you are able to use a car. Just apply that to the Zelda's quote, and you'll see that my interpretation of Light Force and Light Arrows may work.
Wait, maybe it's better if I clarify even more: The car key is the Light Force which gives Zelda the ability to create the Light Arrows. So in turn, the Light Arrows are part of the power given to the chosen ones, but there may be this greater power, the Light Force, behind it.

Edited by Jumbie, 16 August 2006 - 05:55 PM.

[LionHarted]

It's totally simple. Let's say, I give you a car key. Now, this key gives you the ability to travel from Town A to Town B much faster than on foot, since through the key you are able to use a car. Just apply that to the Zelda's quote, and you'll see that my interpretation of Light Force and Light Arrows may work.

I still don't have the car.

[Fyxe]

I still don't have the car.

See? See how he just misses the point *on purpose*?

[LionHarted]

See? See how he just misses the point *on purpose*?

There was no point.

Without a car, I cannot get from Point A to Point B.

I have no car.

Even with a car key, I cannot get from Point A to Point B.

Pointing out flaws in your logic is not missing your point. It's destroying your point.

Which, you're right, I am doing *on purpose*.

[Fyxe]

Somebody, please, please get Pinglesworth to stop taking everything so freakin' literally.

Actually, no, wait, I have an idea.

*Slap* Stop it. Please. You must have better things to do than be a twonk for no good reason.

[LionHarted]

"And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses... The power given to the chosen ones... The sacred Arrow of Light!!!"

"Here is a weapon. The weapon can penetrate the Evil King's defenses. The weapon is the power given to the chosen ones. The weapon is the sacred Arrow of Light." The style of description used here is called "parallelism of phrases", or, more specifically, "anticlimactic parallelism of phrases", where the parallels are listed in reverse order of importance.

As for "chosen ones" as they relate to OoT:

Link... Wake up... Link, the chosen one...

Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the Triforce mark on the backs of their hands.

The "chosen ones" are Link and Zelda, who received the other two Triforce pieces.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 06:35 PM.

[Jumbie]

I have no car.
Even with a car key, I cannot get from Point A to Point B.

But if there *was* a car that could be started with your key, then you *could* drive.
Just like Zelda *can* create the Light Arrows, but only *if* there is a Link who needs them! (Not implying she can't create them whenever she likes, though)

Edited by Jumbie, 16 August 2006 - 07:10 PM.

[LionHarted]

But if there *was* a car that could be started with your key, then you *could* drive.

There isn't.

Just like Zelda *can* create the Light Arrows, but only *if* there is a Link who needs them! (Not implying she can't create them whenever she likes, though)

Now you're making stuff up.

[Fyxe]

There isn't.

*SLAP*

IT'S A METAPHOR FOR THE SAKE OF ARSE.

Edited by Fyxe, 17 August 2006 - 03:54 PM.

[LionHarted]

*SLAP*

IT'S A METAPHOR FOR THE SAKE OF ARSE.

It's a flawed metaphor.

If he's trying to use the metaphor to support the original purpose of the topic, he's doing a horrible job.

Because of the poor job he's doing in his attempts to support his theory, I am going to continue to be equally skeptical until he improves.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 August 2006 - 08:50 PM.

[Jumbie]

Because of the poor job he's doing in his attempts to support his theory, I am going to continue to be equally skeptical until he improves.

Shut up now. You should be glad I'm providing metaphors at all to help your brain get what I want to say!

[LionHarted]

Shut up now. You should be glad I'm providing metaphors at all to help your brain get what I want to say!

Yes. You're definitely helping me understand how I can get from point A to point B with this "key" of mine. o.O

Edited by LionHarted, 17 August 2006 - 08:56 PM.

[Fyxe]

It's a flawed metaphor.

I don't even agree with him but you clearly have no freakin' idea what a metaphor is, let alone a flawed one. The fact that you don't have a sodding car doesn't change anything. It's a METAPHOR. The car is there as part of the metaphor. The existence of the car has no relevance to the metaphor. It's all about the keys.

Use your bloody brain, Pinglesworth, because you're just coming across as a complete twonk.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 August 2006 - 06:45 AM.

[LionHarted]

I don't even agree with him but you clearly have no freakin' idea what a metaphor is, let alone a flawed one.

You're talking to an English major.

The fact that you don't have a sodding car doesn't change anything. It's a METAPHOR. The car is there as part of the metaphor.

No, it's not, since I'm not told that it is.

The existence of the car has no relevance to the metaphor. It's all about the keys.

Correct. The metaphor is being used to describe how the Light Force allows them to create Light Arrows, yes?

They have the keys (Light Force), so they can drive the car (use Light Arrows). Unforunately, this metaphor doesn't work, because it requires that the keys be able to create a car. Since I have to have the car (Light Arrows) to begin with, the metaphor is dashed.

If that's not the metaphor, then the metaphor has nothing to do with the topic.

[Fyxe]

You're talking to an English major.

So? I study English primarily in university. English student. Not just a major. But I don't flaunt it around. Just because you're an English major doesn't mean you actually know anything special.

No, it's not, since I'm not told that it is.

Use your sodding brain, you don't need to be told everything like you're four years old.

Correct. The metaphor is being used to describe how the Light Force allows them to create Light Arrows, yes?

They have the keys (Light Force), so they can drive the car (use Light Arrows). Unforunately, this metaphor doesn't work, because it requires that the keys be able to create a car. Since I have to have the car (Light Arrows) to begin with, the metaphor is dashed.

THEN THEY'RE MAGIC KEYS. Who CARES. It's an imaginary, hypothetical situation. For gods sake, it's a metaphor, just because a metaphor doesn't make sense when you pick it apart that doesn't mean it's not making a point.

[LionHarted]

So? I study English primarily in university. English student. Not just a major. But I don't flaunt it around. Just because you're an English major doesn't mean you actually know anything special.

Why would I want to study English at the college level if I didn't know everything there was to know from high school?

Use your sodding brain, you don't need to be told everything like you're four years old.

In matters of fact, yes, I do.

Unless something is stated fact, I cannot assume as much.

THEN THEY'RE MAGIC KEYS. Who CARES. It's an imaginary, hypothetical situation. For gods sake, it's a metaphor, just because a metaphor doesn't make sense when you pick it apart that doesn't mean it's not making a point.

If it doesn't make sense, then it's not effectively making the point.

I'd like Jumbie to try to come up with one that does make sense, or else his argument means about as much to me as his metaphor.

[Jumbie]

I'd like Jumbie to try to come up with one that does make sense, or else his argument means about as much to me as his metaphor.

Alright, at the moment you got me on a wave of inspiration. So behold here: the ketchup metaphor!

Zelda holds out a bottle of ketchup to Link, and says "This is the power given to the chosen ones.. the ketchup of magical taste." The unexpected truth behind that: this power originally started off as the magical tomato!
Just like ketchup is a product of tomatoes, the Light Arrows are a product of the Light Force. A part of the force is worked into an item, so it's still correct for Zelda to refer to the Light Arrows as the "power given to the chosen ones" because the arrows were made of said power.
I hope you got it now, it can't be made any clearer.

Edited by Jumbie, 18 August 2006 - 04:56 PM.

[LionHarted]

Zelda holds out a bottle of ketchup to Link, and says "This is the power given to the chosen ones.. the ketchup of magical taste." The unexpected truth behind that: this power originally started off as the magical tomato!

My question to you would then be--were the chosen ones given the magical tomato, or just the ketchup of magical taste? From the information presented, of course all ketchup comes from tomatoes, but from the information presented, it's the ketchup, not the tomato, that's given to the chosen ones. In light of the circumstance at hand--why do you think that the power given to the chosen ones is not the Light Arrow, but the Light Force, given the parallel structure of the quote you presented? Also in light of the actual circumstances, I would ask you why you think the quote refers to different chosen ones than the ones at hand (Link and Zelda in pre-TMC vs. Link and Zelda in OoT).

I'm going to make it easy for you and present an argument that you could use to get me to agree that it is a highly certifiable possibility:

Because we have evidence of a power being given to Link and Zelda in pre-TMC, but no evidence of such a power being given to them in OoT (outside of this quote)--and because OoT speaks of this power as though it was given to the chosen ones before the game begins. We can guess that this "power" existed long before OoT, and, from a TMC-is-first standpoint, "this power" could be the Light Force.

I definitely agree that it's possible--but I was really hoping you'd be able to do a better job of convincing me.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 August 2006 - 05:09 PM.

[Jumbie]

were the chosen ones given the magical tomato, or just the ketchup of magical taste? From the information presented, it's the ketchup, not the tomato, that's given to the chosen ones.
In light of the circumstance at hand--why do you think that the power given to the chosen ones is not the Light Arrow, but the Light Force, given the parallel structure of the quote you presented?

Yes it looks like it was the ketchup (Light Arrows), and Zelda puts it like it was so, but knowing that the Light Arrows are made of and by the Light Force, the "power" can refer to both objects freely interchangeable. The fact that when OoT was released there wasn't a thought about a Light Force yet, means that this old quote of Zelda can refer to both the Light Arrows and the Light Force at the same time.

I would ask you why you think the quote refers to different chosen ones than the ones at hand (Link and Zelda in pre-TMC vs. Link and Zelda in OoT).

When anyone (persons in the games, but also we players) talks about Link or Zelda, they can either refer to the entirety of their incarnations, or to one specific incarnation. This, for example, is another issue about which you cannot get much information from the mere wording alone. You have to compare with TMC to solve the riddle.

I'm going to make it easy for you and present an argument that you could use to get me to agree that it is a highly certifiable possibility:

Ummm, what is with that? Haven't I been trying to explain exactly that to you? Before you can say no, let me say I did.

I definitely agree that it's possible--but I was really hoping you'd be able to do a better job of convincing me.

This is not primarily a contest of who is able to violently convince others of their viewpoint, but is actually meant to work together (at least I think so). So why do you expect me to try everything to convince you, if you're just a single person countering me? The world doesn't go down if I won't manage it, you know.

Edited by Jumbie, 18 August 2006 - 08:00 PM.

[LionHarted]

knowing that the Light Arrows are made of and by the Light Force

I still want to know why this must be so. I could say that the Light Arrows were made by Rauru. Hell, they exist in Termina, which is not connected to the Light Force in the slightest.

Please, convince me.

The fact that when OoT was released there wasn't a thought about a Light Force yet, means that this old quote of Zelda can refer to both the Light Arrows and the Light Force at the same time.

"Can." I am aware of this. I understand that, from a "TMC is first" standpoint, it explains the evolution of the use of the Light Force quite nicely. I would like to know why it makes any more sense to attribute this "power" to the Light Force than simply to the Arrows themselves. If TMC is not first, then the connection is meaningless.

This is not primarily a contest of who is able to violently convince others of their viewpoint, but is actually meant to work together (at least I think so). So why do you expect me to try everything to convince you, if you're just a single person countering me? The world doesn't go down if I won't manage it, you know.

Because, if I can find a hole that you can't fill, then the world does go down.

[Jumbie]

Please, convince me.

Frankly, I cannot. You either come to believe it by yourself, or you don't.

If TMC is not first, then the connection is meaningless.

Right. But most of the time, I do assume TMC to be before OoT, anyway. This thread was meant only as a gimmick.

Because, if I can find a hole that you can't fill, then the world does go down.

Ah really? Not for me, though..

[HeroOfTime5]

Maybe I should've posted this in Zelda General rather, but due to the recent rush-hour over there and the dead-silence here I decided to put it here. Also, we debated about this in the TMC thread not long ago, so it does fit in here.

So, by coincidence I came upon a neat explanation of what the Light Force could be (in case it's really not the Triforce):

The "chosen ones" must be Link and Zelda who received the Light Force in TMC's backstory. Seeing as Zelda is able to create the Light Arrows also in FSA where she doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom, the best explanation why she can do it would be the Light Force that is passed on in the female bloodline of the Royal Family.
Of course, the Light Force is not only used to bestow the magic of light on arrows but Zelda can also build up a sphere of light around herself (as seen in TMC) which is however too feeble to repel evil powers.

Now what about you? Are you okay with the idea that Light Force and Light Arrows, both of which have to do with the chosen ones, have a connection to each other, or would you rather say that's just another rash conclusion of my raving mind?

This is the biggest assumption I have seen in a long time. Congrats.