76 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

Maybe I should've posted this in Zelda General rather, but due to the recent rush-hour over there and the dead-silence here I decided to put it here. Also, we debated about this in the TMC thread not long ago, so it does fit in here.

So, by coincidence I came upon a neat explanation of what the Light Force could be (in case it's really not the Triforce):

Zelda in OoT: And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses... The power given to the chosen ones... The sacred Arrow of Light!!!

The "chosen ones" must be Link and Zelda who received the Light Force in TMC's backstory. Seeing as Zelda is able to create the Light Arrows also in FSA where she doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom, the best explanation why she can do it would be the Light Force that is passed on in the female bloodline of the Royal Family.
Of course, the Light Force is not only used to bestow the magic of light on arrows but Zelda can also build up a sphere of light around herself (as seen in TMC) which is however too feeble to repel evil powers.

Now what about you? Are you okay with the idea that Light Force and Light Arrows, both of which have to do with the chosen ones, have a connection to each other, or would you rather say that's just another rash conclusion of my raving mind?

[Showsni]

Actually, I quite like this theory...

[coinilius]

But what about the Light Arrows that you recieve in the Minish Cap - arrows that are given to you by a member of the Wind Tribe and not by Zelda? How do they fit in?

[Jumbie]

But what about the Light Arrows that you recieve in the Minish Cap - arrows that are given to you by a member of the Wind Tribe and not by Zelda? How do they fit in?

I knew that question was still open It's easy: when the Wind Tribe still lived on the ground, they were close friends with the Hylian Royal Family. So probably the Light Arrows went to the Wind Tribe as a gift from an earlier Princess Zelda (who is certain to have existed as she is depicted on stained glass).

There is also another question, what about the Light Arrows in TWW. In this game, they are hidden deep inside Ganon's Tower, much like the Silver Arrows were in LoZ. They are near Ganondorf, although he has no reason to keep his bane around. But also Zelda, the supposed creator of them, is held in the tower by the time Link finds the Light Arrows, so it's totally possible that Zelda left that helpful item behind along the way, and soon Phantom Ganon provisionally sealed them away in a treasure chest..

[Fyxe]

I knew that question was still open It's easy: when the Wind Tribe still lived on the ground, they were close friends with the Hylian Royal Family. So probably the Light Arrows went to the Wind Tribe as a gift from an earlier Princess Zelda (who is certain to have existed as she is depicted on stained glass).

While I agree that Zelda appears to have some innate light-based magic powers, whazzaspuhzawha? Methinks you just made aaaaaaaall that up.

[Jumbie]

While I agree that Zelda appears to have some innate light-based magic powers, whazzaspuhzawha? Methinks you just made aaaaaaaall that up.

You're not serious now, right? You just can't be..

Canon Fact 1: An ancient Zelda received the Light Force.
Canon Fact 2: TMC's Zelda bears the Light Force in her body.
Canon Fact 3: The Wind Tribe was friends of ancient King Gustaf.
Canon Fact 4: A member of the Wind Tribe was in possession of the Light Arrows.
Canon Fact 5: OoT's Zelda says the chosen ones are able to create the Light Arrows.
Canon Fact 6: Not only OoT's Zelda, but also FSA's Zelda is able to create them, so if they're seen to be created by two Zeldas but never by someone else, it must be that only members of the female Royal Bloodline can create them.
Canon Fact 7: The Hylian King and the Wind Tribe did exchange gifts for a fact, the Kinstone is only one example.

So what exactly am I making up here? Probably it's just your constant need to counter my theories, like always.

[Fyxe]

No... It's the fact that you DID make it up. Whether there's circumstancial evidence or not (which, I should note, you dug around for and I wasn't privy to the exactly knowledge that the Wind Tribe were such amazingly close friends with the king, care to provide quotes, for I do not remember that), you did, technically, make up the connection.

And I WAS actually asking a QUESTION, you bizarre paranoid person.

...BOO.

Scared you. Yeah, it's true, I actually DO want to slaughter you and eat your bones. You got me.

[coinilius]

No... It's the fact that you DID make it up. Whether there's circumstancial evidence or not (which, I should note, you dug around for and I wasn't privy to the exactly knowledge that the Wind Tribe were such amazingly close friends with the king, care to provide quotes, for I do not remember that), you did, technically, make up the connection.

And I WAS actually asking a QUESTION, you bizarre paranoid person.

...BOO.

Scared you. Yeah, it's true, I actually DO want to slaughter you and eat your bones. You got me.

From King Gustaf's figurine information:

The spirit of an ancient king of Hyrule who wishes to secure peace in his land from beyond the grave. He was very fond of the people of the Wind Tribe.

[Fyxe]

Ah, well there we go, fairly obscure bit of information there. I wouldn't take it too much to heart.

Where is it ever said that the Wind Tribe made Kinstones anyway? I checked the text dump and didn't see anything of the sort. In fact, it seems that the Minish made the Armos for them, so I don't see why the Minish didn't make the Kinstones too.

Canon Fact 5: OoT's Zelda says the chosen ones are able to create the Light Arrows.

Uh, no, she says nothing to do with 'creating' them. Just that they're given to the chosen ones, in this case, Link and Zelda.

Canon Fact 6: Not only OoT's Zelda, but also FSA's Zelda is able to create them, so if they're seen to be created by two Zeldas but never by someone else, it must be that only members of the female Royal Bloodline can create them.

Assumption, and they don't 'create' them, they just use them. Big difference. And we have no idea who created them in the first place anyway, just like we have no idea who forged the Master Sword.

Canon Fact 7: The Hylian King and the Wind Tribe did exchange gifts for a fact, the Kinstone is only one example.

Quotes please?

Edited by Fyxe, 10 August 2006 - 09:26 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yeah, it's true, I actually DO want to slaughter you and eat your bones. You got me.

This is getting sigged.

[Jumbie]

From King Gustaf's figurine information:

Thanks Coinilius, for helping me out on that one

I'll do a bit of research into this, perhaps, and I'll get back with you on it later.

Well, I'm looking forward to what more you might find.

[Arturo]

Well, It's a good idea, though I think the Light Force is the Triforce. Just remembered something (I think Tri-Enforcer said something similar before):

One of the Composer Brothers:

We brothers also served the Royal Family, and we were assigned to study the hereditary mystic powers of the family.

Sounds kinda like the Light Force

[Paviel]

Wasn't the Light Force represented as a golden triangle in the stained glass in MC?

Of course, the Triforce is usually represented as three...

[Jumbie]

Well, It's a good idea, though I think the Light Force is the Triforce. Just remembered something (I think Tri-Enforcer said something similar before):
Sounds kinda like the Light Force

Yes, extremely so!
The thing is, once you've actually reached the point where you begin to question that Light Force and Triforce have to be the same, countless new possibilities open up and evidence springs forth...

Wasn't the Light Force represented as a golden triangle in the stained glass in MC?

Of course, the Triforce is usually represented as three...

For a long time, I assumed that the Light Force is obviously meant to be the Triforce, but something that the others said (I actually forgot what exactly it was) had me consider the possibility that the Light Force is something different.
TMC with all its odd new twists is certainly one of the most complicated timeline issues, and not necessarily one that might be solved with evidence from future games (that's at least my feeling about it).

[Hero of Slime]

How did the light arrows come to the Stone Tower?

[Jumbie]

How did the light arrows come to the Stone Tower?

The same way that the Fire Arrows came to Snowhead Temple! ...Just kidding, I know that explanation isn't enough for you
Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule, so it could be possible that the Minish (and with them, the Light Force) existed there as well. Ikana is described as a kingdom of former glory, and the skeletons imply that they were once human, so the Ikana tribe could have been the equivalent to Hyrule's magic-skilled Hylians (while the normal Terminans would be like ALttP's Hyrulians). So, a similar story of the royal family receiving the Light Force is theoretically possible to have happened there.

But please, don't take this little story too serious. What if the Ikana have just discovered another way to produce Light Arrows? I mean, many puzzles in the Stone Tower Temple involve the use of light, so one can assume they were skilled with that.

[Hero of Slime]

You say Zelda gave Link Light arrows in FSA, that is not so. She gives Link a level-two bow, but that is no different from the level-two bows Link recives through out FSA. She does create a Ball of Light which Link shoots an arrow through to seal ganon, but this is way different from the light arrows which only stun ganon.

[Jumbie]

You say Zelda gave Link Light arrows in FSA, that is not so. She gives Link a level-two bow, but that is no different from the level-two bows Link recives through out FSA. She does create a Ball of Light which Link shoots an arrow through to seal ganon, but this is way different from the light arrows which only stun ganon.

Oh, you're right of course! Stupid mistake of me. So it has to read, Zelda is able to create a Ball of Light in FSA and Link shoots an arrow through it.
But nevertheless I don't think that the "light" arrow resulting from that is different from the usual Light Arrows. It doesn't do much more than stun Ganon, the actual sealing seems to be done by the Shrine Maidens, right?
While your correction calls into mind that the Light Arrows are present in one game less, it doesn't disprove my theory. On the contrary, it even supports it by showing Zelda creating another object from light: a ball, besides the arrows and energy shield. Sure it might be possible for any magic users to pull some tricks with light, but if TMC states that the Light Force is inherent to the Royal Family anyway, I don't see why we can't blame the Light Force for things like the Light Arrows.

[LionHarted]

As for the Light Arrows in TMC: while TMC is the last game to feature them, they are much like the Master Sword in OoX--not relevant to the main storyline, and not a required item. Secondly, to place relevance on such items is asinine, since we should then place much emphasis on the invisible Hero's Clothes in TWW's second quest. Because, by god, invisible clothes are evidence that TWW is first, because, by god, none of the Heroes before TWW wore invisible clothes.

[coinilius]

As for the Light Arrows in TMC: while TMC is the last game to feature them, they are much like the Master Sword in OoX--not relevant to the main storyline, and not a required item. Secondly, to place relevance on such items is asinine, since we should then place much emphasis on the invisible Hero's Clothes in TWW's second quest. Because, by god, invisible clothes are evidence that TWW is first, because, by god, none of the Heroes before TWW wore invisible clothes.

Ahh, but they're invisible clothes based on the ones worn by the Hero of Time, so TWW can't be first

BTW, welcome to the boards LionHarted

[LionHarted]

Ahh, but they're invisible clothes based on the ones worn by the Hero of Time, so TWW can't be first

Except the ones worn by the Hero of Time weren't light as a feather.

[coinilius]

Except the ones worn by the Hero of Time weren't light as a feather.

But Link's grandmother didn't have actual access to the Hero of Time's clothes, just that the people on the island dressed in clothes inspired by the Hero of Times when they reached a certain age. The clothes were never going to be exact in material and design, even in the first playthrough. The opening scrolls are still a part of the opening of TWW's second quest, the Hero of Time is still refered to in the Second Quest - the second quest of the Wind Waker still refers back to OoT, so the arguement that 'TWW must be first because no one wore invisible clothes before' isn't applicable because there is other evidence in the game that suggests that other games came before it.

You're argueing that you can't look into the re-use of items to seriously, but Jumbie was never suggesting that the use of items between games means you should ignore all other evidence presented. You yourself have made comments about the way enemies are presented in the various games and the implications that has for the timeline... is that really going to be percieved by all fans as being all that different from discussing items or geographical features?

And Master of ALttP, maturity does not mean everything has to be poe faced and serious all the time.

Edited by coinilius, 14 August 2006 - 10:31 PM.

[LionHarted]

You're argueing that you can't look into the re-use of items to seriously, but Jumbie was never suggesting that the use of items between games means you should ignore all other evidence presented. You yourself have made comments about the way enemies are presented in the various games and the implications that has for the timeline... is that really going to be percieved by all fans as being all that different from discussing items or geographical features?

In the manner in which they are being discussed currently, the inclusion of the Light Arrows in both OoT and TMC does not in any way establish any sort of implication that TMC comes even in the remote vicinity of OoT--just that it is part of the cluster of games that includes Light Arrows. Judging by the fact that the Mirror Shields in TWW and TMC are identical, I'd prefer to say that it comes closer to TWW. The Light Arrows and the Royal Family are hardly connected in TWW, and without any expressed connection in TMC, I have no compelling reason to believe they are connected to the Royal Family there, either.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 August 2006 - 10:37 PM.

[coinilius]

In the manner in which they are being discussed currently, the inclusion of the Light Arrows in both OoT and TMC does not in any way establish any sort of implication that TMC comes even in the remote vicinity of OoT--just that it is part of the cluster of games that includes Light Arrows. Judging by the fact that the Mirror Shields in TWW and TMC are identical, I'd prefer to say that it comes closer to TWW. The Light Arrows and the Royal Family are hardly connected in TWW, and without any expressed connection in TMC, I have no compelling reason to believe they are connected to the Royal Family there, either.

But the thread wasn't really about the Light Arrows in TMC so much as it was about the Light Arrows in OoT and TWW possibly be connected with the Light Force, based on the description given the Light Arrows in OoT and some other inferences based on things from TMC. It's the Light Force connection that created any kind of timeline possibilities for TMC/OoT.

I agree with you about there being little connection between the Light Arrows and the Royal Family given in any games beyond perhaps OoT, though. Personally, I always prefered the Silver Arrows to the Light Arrows anyway

[LionHarted]

But the thread wasn't really about the Light Arrows in TMC so much as it was about the Light Arrows in OoT and TWW possibly be connected with the Light Force, based on the description given the Light Arrows in OoT and some other inferences based on things from TMC. It's the Light Force connection that created any kind of timeline possibilities for TMC/OoT.

Based on the evidence presented, the Light Force has to be the Light Arrows for there to be a connection based on the "chosen one" quote.

[coinilius]

Based on the evidence presented, the Light Force has to be the Light Arrows for there to be a connection based on the "chosen one" quote.

Yes, that was what I was saying - the timeline connection came from the Light Force/Light Arrows connection. The Light Arrows in TMC where then brought up (by me) as they were not mentioned in Jumbies original post. Jumbie had a theory for that, based on various things using that quote and things mentioned in TMC.

[LionHarted]

Yes, that was what I was saying - the timeline connection came from the Light Force/Light Arrows connection. The Light Arrows in TMC where then brought up (by me) as they were not mentioned in Jumbies original post. Jumbie had a theory for that, based on various things using that quote and things mentioned in TMC.

If the Light Arrows represent the Light Force, they are not "embodied in Hyrule's princess" if they are in the possession of the Wind Tribe, and therefore, we have a consistency error.

[coinilius]

If the Light Arrows represent the Light Force, they are not "embodied in Hyrule's princess" if they are in the possession of the Wind Tribe, and therefore, we have a consistency error.

Jumbies original assertion wasn't that the Light Arrows were the Light Force itself, transposed out of the Princesses body, but that the Light Force was what the Princesses used to create the Light Arrows - that was the connection between them. It was the same power which Zelda used to create the sphere of light in FSA. That was why the Light Force could still be in Zelda in TMC but also why Light Arrows could be in the possession of Gregal.