65 replies to this topic

[Sentient]

First and foremost, the swords only flow (design-wise) from game to game very nicely if you believe in the Wise Men's linear timeline theory (which is in my sig). The purpose of this thread is not to spark a split versus linear debate, but to show how that in the Wise Men's timeline, all the swords flow very nicely from game to game, with small changes in design each time.

The Legend of Zelda:


So here the sword is a basic design. It is straight and has a gold hilt and a white blade.

The Adventure of Link:


As you can see, the sword is exactly the same: it has a gold hilt and a white blade. Perhaps this is the White Sword?

A Link to the Past:


Very similar design here, except that the hilt is brown and is slightly curved, but the blade remains the same. Since we all know what the Master Sword looks like and the fact that it hasn't changed, I didn't feel the need to post a picture of it.

Link's Awakening:

Like the LA shield, the LA sword is exactly the same as that from ALttP.

Ocarina of Time:


The Kokiri Sword is much more like a knife, but I'll describe it. The blade is white and the hilt is brown and curved and there is a red jewel set into it. Since we all know what the Master Sword looks like and the fact that it hasn't changed, I didn't feel the need to post a picture of it.

Majora's Mask:


The Kokiri Sword has changed a lot here. The hilt is now blue and yellow and there is no jewel set into it, plus the hilt is now straight.

Oracles:


Sword is very similar to the ALttP and LA swords, but is the same as the LoZ sword. It has a white blade and brown, straight hilt.

Four Sword Series:


The Four Sword remains exactly the same throughout FS, FSA and TMC. It has a curved, gold hilt and a white blade. Plus a jewel set into the hilt, that changes colour depending on which Link is wielding it.

The Wind Waker and The Minish Cap:




Here you can see that bothe the Hero's Sword in TWW and Smith's Sword in TMC are the same. The hilt is rounded and a sort of light brown grey colour, and the blade is white. Since we all know what the Master Sword looks like and the fact that it hasn't changed, I didn't feel the need to post a picture of it. The sword in PH is the same as the Hero's Sword from TWW.

Twilight Princess:


Bears a lot of resemblance to the LoZ sword, with the straight hilt and white blade, although the blade is considerably longer and the hilt is a mix of brown and grey.

So we know what the swords look like. Now let's group them:

1) LoZ and AoL: straight, gold hilt with white blade.
2) ALttP and LA: Curved brown hilt with white blade.
3) OoT and MM: Swords made by the Kokiri.
4) Oracles: Very similar to both ALttP / LA and LoZ / AoL swords.
5) FS, FSA and TMC: Four Sword remains the same throughout, with a gold curved hilt with jewel and white blade.
6) TWW and TMC: Round, grey hilt and white blade.

If you believe in this timeline:

OoT-MM-TP-TWW-PH-TMC-FS-FSA-ALttP-LA-OoS/OoA-LoZ-AoL

You'll notice that the swords seem to follow this.

OoT and MM has the Kokiri Swords, so they aren't really Hylians Swords, but MM has the Kokiri sword with a straight hilt.

TP has the sword with a straight hilt, so this may have been inspired by either the Kokiri Sword, or by looking at the length, the Biggoron's Sword, which also had a straight hilt.

TWW, PH and TMC have the same sword design, which is basically the same as TP's design except that the hilt is still straight but is rounded.

TMC, FS and FSA have the Four Sword which is the same in each game, with a curved gold hilt and jewel and a white blade.

ALttP and LA follow the design of the Four Sword except that the hilts are now brown but still curved.

The Oracles have the same design swords from ALttP and LA but now the hilt is straight.

LoZ and AoL retain the straight hilt but have now coloured it gold.

So there you have it. The sword's don't just drastically change from game to game, their design changes are small and seem to flow from game to game quite nicely. Hmm. Perhaps Ninty weren't lying when they said that they were trying to tie the games together? Well, tell me what you think of this.

[MikePetersSucks]

Wow. That actually kind've.....works. The only thing I disagree with is TWW and PH's placement, but that isn't the thread for this.

[LionHarted]

-yep, invalidated-

Edited by LionHarted, 14 November 2006 - 09:11 AM.

[Ogmios22188]

It's also interesting to note that MM's Kokiri Sword is actually called the Hero's Sword in the original Japanese. So technically they aren't even the same sword.

That actually makes sense. So, I guess, canonically, it's not really the Kokiri Sword, but another sword.

[Chaltab]

I thought it was called the Hero's Sword in MM... It definitely didn't look like the Kokiri Sword.

[SOAP]

Pretty interesting. I'm with LionHarted on the Hero's Sword in MM not being the Kokiri Sword. I think that's exclusive to OoT.

Also, the hilt on the AoL sword looks more brown to me. I'd group it with the ALtTP Hero Sword. FYI, the white sword has a blue hilt, not gold and looks like a prototype Mastersword.

You also didn't mention the white swords in TMC. They resemble the LoZ white sword only there's four and they come in four colors. That's worth noting.

[Hero of Slime]

The sword from Aol is the Magical Sword, the same one Link found in LoZ.

I still think the sword in MM is the kokiri sword. The translators of the american version probably changed the hero's sword to the kokiri sword to make the storyline clearer. In LA link has the same sword he had from ALttP and in AoL he had the magical sword he found in LoZ. It makes more sense for Link in MM to have the same sword he had in OoT.

[Tekky]

That doesnt explain the radical change in design of the sword though!

[Sentient]

You also didn't mention the white swords in TMC. They resemble the LoZ white sword only there's four and they come in four colors. That's worth noting.

That's because the TMC White Swords are the reforged shards of the Picori Blade, infused with the elements, and eventually becoming the Four Sword, which I did mention.

Also, the hilt on the AoL sword looks more brown to me. I'd group it with the ALtTP Hero Sword. FYI, the white sword has a blue hilt, not gold and looks like a prototype Mastersword.

Its brown and gold. The hilt is a browny gold, whilst the handle is definately gold. I wouldn't say the LoZ magical sword is a prototype Master Sword, since (at least according to the Wise Men's timeline), the Master Sword was put to rest permanantly at the end of ALttP, and since I believe LoZ is after ALttP, I'd say the Magical Sword was just a magic sword.

[jman]

It's also interesting to note that MM's Kokiri Sword is actually called the Hero's Sword in the original Japanese. So technically they aren't even the same sword.

Not to stir anything about the storyline, but does this mean that the Hylians of the 'child timeline' remember the events of the SW even though Link was sent back to their time?

[LionHarted]

Not to stir anything about the storyline, but does this mean that the Hylians of the 'child timeline' remember the events of the SW even though Link was sent back to their time?

What child timeline?

Just because he has the "Hero's Sword" doesn't mean he's already become a hero in the eyes of the people--just that he's a hero, and he has this sword.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 November 2006 - 09:08 AM.

[Fyxe]

It's also interesting to note that MM's Kokiri Sword is actually called the Hero's Sword in the original Japanese. So technically they aren't even the same sword.

Actually, that's just plain FALSE. I don't know who told you that, but I just translated it from the text dump and it's the Kokiri Sword.

[LionHarted]

Actually, that's just plain FALSE. I don't know who told you that, but I just translated it from the text dump and it's the Kokiri Sword.

That's interesting, because it's a German site that presented it that way. A-ha, silly Germans. I stand corrected, then.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 November 2006 - 09:10 AM.

[Fyxe]

They probably just made a mistake. There's a Hero's Bow and a Hero's Shield after all.

You sure they didn't mean to say it's called a Hero's Sword in Germany? I suppose that might be possible.

[Arturo]

No, I have just checked and they call it Kokiri Schwert (sword).

And your comparison is interesting, indeed. But I think it's normal that the swords, enemies and all that stuff flow nicely in your timeline because one of its main pillars is art style, so it's understandable to find that continuity.

But since I don't think art style can be used to place a game (and I have my reasons), I can't consider this a great discovery. But very well, indeed.

And i think OoT KS and MM KS are the sam ebecause the same is the name. I think the creators just judged necessary to look it more sword-ish

[LionHarted]

And your comparison is interesting, indeed. But I think it's normal that the swords, enemies and all that stuff flow nicely in your timeline because one of its main pillars is art style, so it's understandable to find that continuity.

But since I don't think art style can be used to place a game (and I have my reasons), I can't consider this a great discovery. But very well, indeed.

You misunderstand. Art style isn't a pillar. It's icing on the cake.

[Sentient]

And your comparison is interesting, indeed. But I think it's normal that the swords, enemies and all that stuff flow nicely in your timeline because one of its main pillars is art style, so it's understandable to find that continuity.

But since I don't think art style can be used to place a game (and I have my reasons), I can't consider this a great discovery. But very well, indeed.

I don't think art style is big evidence of our timeline, its just a bit of evidence to help strengthen the arguement for the Wise Men's timeline. Like LionHarted said, it's icing. Mmm... icing.

[Arturo]

That's why I said A pillar, not the most important one. But an important one certainly, you use it to place TMC after TWW

[LionHarted]

That's why I said A pillar, not the most important one. But an important one certainly, you use it to place TMC after TWW

Actually, we just have no reason to remove TMC from the FS saga cluster, which we place after TWW and before ALttP, which is done for storyline purposes, not art purposes. I personally can't see why TMC should or even can come prior to OoT.

[Arturo]

But why is the whole FS series after TWW instead of after ALttP, for example? You haven't given me a solid reason. And I am not going to ellaborate now on TMC>OoT because that's one of the things I'll speak about in my article.

[LionHarted]

But why is the whole FS series after TWW instead of after ALttP, for example? You haven't given me a solid reason. And I am not going to ellaborate now on TMC>OoT because that's one of the things I'll speak about in my article.

Because FSA sets up nicely for ALttP by giving Ganon the Trident, showing the Kakariko thieves flee to the village, and showing magic portals to the Dark World that are sealed, and by killing off the Knights of Hyrule [again!].

[Arturo]

1 Phantom Ganon already had the Trident inOoT
2 Those thieves don't seem to have anything to do with the Blind
3 There were in OoT too, in every temple of Hyrule
4 They had already died in OoT

And what I mean by saying you base teh timeline in style, I am refering to Hylian writing style, mainly

Edited by Arturo, 14 November 2006 - 01:34 PM.

[Sentient]

1 Phantom Ganon already had the Trident in OoT

Would Ganondorf really let his servant, a mere ghost, wield the Trident of Power, when it could give Ganondorf so much power? Even though Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power in OoT, I highly doubt that he'd let his phantom have the Trident, since Ganondorf would keep it for himself, since the one thing Ganondorf desires is more power, and the Trident would give him that. Also, the Trident Phantom Ganon wields in OoT is far inferior in power to the Trident of Power in FSA.

3 There were in OoT too, in every temple of Hyrule

Those portals required you to defeat a temple guardian, and all of those portals led to the Chamber of Sages within the Temple of Light (in the Sacred Realm). The portals in ALttP were out in the open and led to the same location that they were placed in in the Dark World, not just to one place.

But why is the whole FS series after TWW instead of after ALttP, for example? You haven't given me a solid reason.

FSA flows too well into ALttP for them not to be together in the timeline. The incredibly similar geography between the two, and all the reasons LionHarted said. I also have a couple of more reasons to believe FSA - ALttP. For one, in FSA, the desert is inhabited by both Gerudo and Zuna, yet in ALttP it is deserted. And in FSA, the Gorons live on Death Mountain. In ALttP, the Gorons have disappeared.

[Tekky]

another piece of evidence that would support FSA --> ALttP is the presence of the Four Sword in the Pyramid of Power...

You'll have to excuse my ignorance as I havent played any of the Four Sword games, but isnt Ganon sealed in the Four Sword at the end of FSA?

[Paviel]

And in FSA, the Gorons live on Death Mountain. In ALttP, the Gorons have disappeared.

I don't know... those little brown guys who turn to stone when you hit them look an awful lot like miniature Gorons.

Edited by Paviel, 14 November 2006 - 04:01 PM.

[Chaltab]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance as I havent played any of the Four Sword games, but isnt Ganon sealed in the Four Sword at the end of FSA?

Yeah, Ganon is. Ganondorf existed via reincarnation, and became Ganon upon attaining the Trident of Power.

My theory is that reincarnation was his way of circumventing the seal from the Imprisoning War, and that in ALTTP he finally broke the seal from that War.

[Sentient]

another piece of evidence that would support FSA --> ALttP is the presence of the Four Sword in the Pyramid of Power...

The Palace of the Four Sword on the GBA version of ALttP was added as a bonus gameplay feature, and isn't (at least at ZU) considered canon or as evidence in theories.

[LionHarted]

I don't know... those little brown guys who turn to stone when you hit them look an awful lot like miniature Gorons.

Yet they're called "Squirrels".

[Jumbie]

That's interesting, because it's a German site that presented it that way. A-ha, silly Germans. I stand corrected, then.

A-hum..! Well, our translators did take some freedom in games like OoT and older (for example making the Temple of Time a "Citadel of Time" and making the Hero of Time a "Lord of Times"), but they really made up for those mistakes with the German translations of TWW and TMC, which are actually much more consistent with the Japanese originals than the English ones are.

And i think OoT KS and MM KS are the sam ebecause the same is the name. I think the creators just judged necessary to look it more sword-ish

Yes, all of MM's artwork is actually drawn in a slightly different, darker style than OoT's.

Would Ganondorf really let his servant, a mere ghost, wield the Trident of Power, when it could give Ganondorf so much power? Even though Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power in OoT, I highly doubt that he'd let his phantom have the Trident, since Ganondorf would keep it for himself, since the one thing Ganondorf desires is more power, and the Trident would give him that. Also, the Trident Phantom Ganon wields in OoT is far inferior in power to the Trident of Power in FSA.

Ganondorf could lend the Trident to his Phantom and take it back later, in time for the final fight. There he wields two swords which look like a transfiguration of the Trident. My theory includes that a rest of Ganon's spirit from Oracles remained in the Trident, for the first time giving it the great power that it has by the time of FSA. This explains why it wasn't that powerful in OoT.

Those portals required you to defeat a temple guardian, and all of those portals led to the Chamber of Sages within the Temple of Light (in the Sacred Realm). The portals in ALttP were out in the open and led to the same location that they were placed in in the Dark World, not just to one place.

Portals are portals.

FSA flows too well into ALttP for them not to be together in the timeline. The incredibly similar geography between the two

I don't find FSA's and ALttP's geography more similar than OoT's and ALttP's geography are similar. Of course, between both couples there are big resemblances, but judging by geography, FSA might provide a link between OoT and ALttP just as well as ALttP might provide a link between OoT and FSA.

[Arturo]

Would Ganondorf really let his servant, a mere ghost, wield the Trident of Power, when it could give Ganondorf so much power? Even though Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power in OoT, I highly doubt that he'd let his phantom have the Trident, since Ganondorf would keep it for himself, since the one thing Ganondorf desires is more power, and the Trident would give him that. Also, the Trident Phantom Ganon wields in OoT is far inferior in power to the Trident of Power in FSA.

Look, when Ganondorf obtained the Trident in FSA, he became Ganon, the King of Darkness. This is hardly a coincidence.

Ganon's essence was in the Trident, and that power is nothing more than Ganon's power. In OoT he created that weapon and gave it to his Phantom (also the horse, that might not be the "real" one) or maybe he just had it from before, as the horse.

If the essence of the King of Darkness was inside the Trident, and this is confirmed by this quote:

Red Maiden

Evil...spirit of
magic trident.

You are...the...
King of Darkness.

(emphasis mine)

The Trident must have been wielded by a previous Ganon: either the ALttP one or the OoX one. I would prefer the OoX one, because he shares the desire of destruction with the FSA one, something the ALttP one does not have. Also, the OoX Ganon had nothing to do with Ganondorf, unlike the ALttP one. This would explain why Ganondorf is reincarnated in FSA separated from his "pig" form.

Those portals required you to defeat a temple guardian, and all of those portals led to the Chamber of Sages within the Temple of Light (in the Sacred Realm). The portals in ALttP were out in the open and led to the same location that they were placed in in the Dark World, not just to one place.

Those portals don't go to the Chamber of sages. At least not ONLY to the CoS. I will show you why:

Rauru:

The Temple of Light, situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm, is the last stronghold against Ganondorf's evil forces. [...]His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule

The evil power radiates from the temples of Hyrule. But there was no evil in the Chamber of Sages. The portals must also be a portal to other parts of the Sacred Realm. And the bosses were there because Ganon put them, they were neither before him, nor after him.

FSA flows too well into ALttP for them not to be together in the timeline. The incredibly similar geography between the two, and all the reasons LionHarted said. I also have a couple of more reasons to believe FSA - ALttP. For one, in FSA, the desert is inhabited by both Gerudo and Zuna, yet in ALttP it is deserted. And in FSA, the Gorons live on Death Mountain. In ALttP, the Gorons have disappeared.

The incredibly similar geography shows you that FSA comes before ALttP? Does it not show you just that it hasn't changed much between them? And also, the maps of OoT and ALttP are even more similar, but you keep saying it's a New Hyrule. Geography is hardly a proof. There cannot be any games between ALttP and OoT (except for MM) because, as the manual said:

Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. Hyrule was in a time of peace, for its people had wise and devout hearts. The sealing became a distant legend. However, in a certain year, unexplained catastrophes began to occur. Plagues, drought, and no amount of magic could do anything. The King of Hyrule was greatly troubled, and had the seal studied, but found nothing. The people had nothing else to do but pray to the gods. Then, like a comet, a man named Agahnim appeared, and ended the catastrophes with a curious magic.

There was a long uninterrumpted time of peace between the Seal War and ALttP. That doesn't fit well with a flood, the return of the King of Darkness and all that stuff. And don't say OoT is not the SW, because it was stated, by Satory Takizawa, the character designer of OoT:

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages"
from the SNES edition Zelda.

And don't say they retconned about this when they released TWW, because it's shown that this is not the case in the new NOA translation of ALttP, released about the same time as TWW. There, apart from fixing mistranslations, they have changed some terms to fit OoT. Wise men is as good as translation as Sages. Ther is only one difference: Wise Men says theye were men, as it is shown in the images of the introduction, while Sages (that, from what I know is a term that is not commonly used in normal English) mean sthey could be female, like they are, in fact, in OoT.

And about the Gorons and Gerudos, those races had not been invented by then. Did you expect them to appear?

The Palace of the Four Sword on the GBA version of ALttP was added as a bonus gameplay feature, and isn't (at least at ZU) considered canon or as evidence in theories.

I don't see why it should be considered uncanincal. If you consider it a bonus gameplay feature, then FS is non-canonic and so is the "Legend of Fairy" from TWW (since you had to use another machine to get it). And also, it's pretty easy to use the PotFS to say FSA>ALttP. Though that's another story.