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#31 Doopliss

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 05:07 PM

Zelda knows about Ganon in FSA, if the ancient demon wasn't also Ganon, for what reason could she have concluded Ganon is an ancient demon reborn?

If Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power, why did he look for the Trident, and why isn't he said to be powerful before he got the Trident?

#32 mohammedali

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:15 PM

Anyway, it's unlikely that the Triforce will split if it has allowed someone to make a ish unless the wish had already been granted. And, how would you explain how the Triforce got back to the Sacred Realm, considering that this theory (yours) is true?

If OoT is aLttP BS, then granting a wish and the Triforce spliting can definately happen. There is no evidence to the contrary.

I don't remember exactly, but I think the Scrubs say Ganon has returned, anyway, someone correct me if not. If they said so, then, why is Ganon in OoT not refered too to have returned?

I couldn't find a quote where it said he returned, but in any case, they may know that he is returning from the SR. The reason there is little talk of Ganons return in adult OoT is because he returned a while ago so theres not much reason to talk about it so many years afterwards.

It is STATED in the game that the one who obtains the Trident is the King of Darkness. This fact means that the previous owner also was the King of Darkness. And as far as we know, the King of Darkness is Ganon.

Where is it stated that the one who obtains the Trident is the KoD? Check the quotes because I haven't seen that.

Why do you think Ganondorf changed his name? Ignoring facts in favour of opinion, like you do, defeats the purpose of a timeline.

The same reason OoT Ganondorf changes his name to Ganon, or are you going to tell me that he was a reincarnation or something random.

Furthermore, do I need to explain what reborn means? Quite simply, it means that he returned from death. Do not change what the game says.

He's an ancient demon reborn. That ancient demon does not have to be Ganon reborn. In OoT he wasn't changing into Ganon from Ganondorf because of reincarnation. The same can (and most likely does) apply here as well.
Also, IIRC, the term 'reborn' in Japanese can also mean sucessor, which is why I was asking about the correct translation. In any case, the arguement above still holds.

Also, we are not told that Ganon was not connected to evil before FSA. Who is making up fan fiction now?

What? Read the Quote FAQ. You obviously haven't researched this properally. The game constantly assumes that Ganon is innocent till it's obvious he's not. That was my point. No one could even assume Ganon is corrupt till late in the game (other than his Deku Scrub minions that is).

Why is it not logical? It's not like we don't know that people survive death in Zelda. Besides, reincarnation has been a fact since OoT. Whatever biased opinion you have does not change that.
And I proved your theory to be completely baseless.

The only hint towards possible reincarnation in OoT was from the gossip stones that said KG was said to be a sage reincarnated. Other than that rumour I can't think of any proof that it happens, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
The reason I say your idea is illogical is because Ganon is known in every game exept his apparent origin (OoT/FSA). Even when all of Hyrule is flooded people STILL remember him. Whilst you are suggesting no one even *considers* Ganon being bad in FSA because they forgot? It's rediculaous IMO.
You tell me where you put FSA and I'll give you more feedback.

Have you ever tried talking to people with the Gerudo Mask? You should... And this is before the townspeople know what Ganondorf is up too.
Again, this is before Ganondorf becomes anything but their King. The matter of fact is that all Gerudo except Nabooru follow Ganondorf blindly in OoT. There is no denying that.

As I said, they just signed a peace pact. It takes time for people to get used to them. Ganon messed it up for them to build any cred.

Nobody except Zelda knew who Ganon was. But she did know about him, because he had been around before FSA. There is nothing wrong in saying that the people forgot about Ganon, in fact, it is logical.

Zelda knew of him and she also saw Ganon in the window in Child Link time. And again, people forgeting about Ganon has not happened even in WW - I don't see it happening here.

WTF? Nobody, not even Link, knew who Ganondorf was in TWW. The King explains it to him when they first meet and says "He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of...", but there is no indication that this is common knowledge. After all, the King was surprised that Link and Zelda did not know about Hyrule. And not a single character in the game makes a connection between the "dark shadow" and Ganon. Also, if FSA is indeed after TWW as I believe, why would the people think anymore about Ganondorf? He was dead as far as they knew. Vaati was a much more immediate threat, but the people have almost forgotten about him as well in FS (And they had a shrine to remember him by).

The fact that the King says 'he is the same Ganon the legends speak of' implies that people remember him in legends. We see the legend in the start. Everyone and their dog knows that legend.

Nope.

Proof?

Saying that Ganon did not get his powers and title from the Trident is outright wrong. Also, he did not have any powers when he left for the pyramid as he was forced to flee from the Gerudo.
But that previous King of Darkness would still be Ganon, as Ganon is his rebirth.

I have proof that the title of "King of Darkness" was given to Ganon when he got the Triforce from 2 seperate games. Have you got any proof that the title was given to him from the Trident?

For the third time, you keep skipping this statement--I noticed, that level is just a bonus and nothing more. Its not accurate. We see the FS Palace in the light world in FSA--that part is at the beginning of the game and is not a bonus--so that stands.

The FS Dungeon is part of a Zelda game. It's canon. There is no reason to suggest otherwise. There is a FS dungeon in the Dark World and that's that. Regardless of what you think about it. It's still there.

What IW story were you reading? Don't say the Jap version because the Triforce is touched upon there as well.

The war doesn't mention the Triforce at all. It just happened after Ganon got powerful from touching the Triforce. No one is stated as knowing about him getting it, nor is it the reason for war.

First of all, I did not not say the MS was created in response to Ganon touching the Triforce. What I was getting at was that the sages began searching for someone to hold the MS once Ganon touched the Triforce--that's what I'm saying. Stop making up things I didn't say. You also, go on to make up some BS that the Japanese version states nothing about the people knowing about Ganon's wish---you are so wrong! Both versions mentions that point:

That's the narraitor speaking so it's different. It doesn't mean that all the people in Hyrule knew about it, and even if they did, it doesn't mean they have to talk about it in FSA. Fact is, the Triforce isn't mentioned so it doesn't matter.

There you have it...even in the Japanese version...people knew Ganon touched the Triforce and why he was around. Once again, this is not the case in FSA

No. It's not proven and it doesn't matter.

Mohammed Ali

#33 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 05:55 PM

Owned by Mohammad.

#34 Hero of Legend

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 06:20 PM

EDIT:

Damn. What's with these faulty quotes? They work fine if you write short posts...

Where is it stated that the one who obtains the Trident is the KoD? Check the quotes because I haven't seen that.


Did you not see the quote I posted before? It states that the one who obtains the Trident receives the power of darkness (Thereby becoming the King of Darkness, as said in the quote). What more do you ask for?

The same reason OoT Ganondorf changes his name to Ganon, or are you going to tell me that he was a reincarnation or something random.

But OoT Ganondorf never changed his name. Even in TWW he says "My name is Ganondorf..." Rather, it was the people of Hyrule that named him "Ganon". This is even stated in the ALttP manual:

The man's name was Ganondorf, commonly known as the evil thief Ganon.


In fact, the only games where Ganon actually says that his name is "Ganon" is FSA and the Oracles. So what caused Ganondorf to change his name in FSA? Well, he certainly changes when he obtains the Trident. Hm... The Trident did contain an "evil spirit". Maybe that was the demonic part of the old Ganon's soul? It certainly is possible. Japanese stories often feature such things.

He's an ancient demon reborn. That ancient demon does not have to be Ganon reborn.

Doopliss said it better than me: "Zelda knows about Ganon in FSA, if the ancient demon wasn't also Ganon, for what reason could she have concluded Ganon is an ancient demon reborn?"

Did you not see his post?

Also, IIRC, the term 'reborn' in Japanese can also mean sucessor, which is why I was asking about the correct translation. In any case, the arguement above still holds.


I believe you are confusing things.

I once confirmed that some of the European versions said that TWW Link was the HoT's "successor", but it latter turned out that they were translated from the English version. Heh. At least it proved how inaccurate "official" translations can be.

What? Read the Quote FAQ. You obviously haven't researched this properally. The game constantly assumes that Ganon is innocent till it's obvious he's not. That was my point. No one could even assume Ganon is corrupt till late in the game (other than his Deku Scrub minions that is).

Do not speak about things you don’t know anything about. I have played trough FSA more times than any normal gamer when I was studying the storyline. I am most qualified on this matter. Qualified enough to prove you wrong. So without further adieu...

The game does not "assume that Ganon is innocent till it's obvious he's not", Ganondorf is not even known by anyone (As opposed to OoT when he is well known) except the Red Maiden:

*White Maiden*

When those...things...first entered my woods, they spoke of their dark lord.

"Ganon, Ganon," they chanted. It was as though they were...worshipping.

*Red Maiden*

Ganon... I've heard that name before. No, wait... It was Ganondorf...

But, no... that man was of the Gerudo tribe.

I can't imagine these creatures worshipping some desert nomad.


Ganondorf is nothing but "some desert nomad", he is certainly not the Gerudo King (He is their guardian in FSA. This is a problem to your theory, but I guess you just ignore that).

Furthermore, Ganondorf is not believed to be innocent by anybody. The Gerudo even state that he is evil.

Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people.

That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert.

But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year.

The child became a man who hungered for power at any price.


The only hint towards possible reincarnation in OoT was from the gossip stones that said KG was said to be a sage reincarnated. Other than that rumour I can't think of any proof that it happens, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Alright then.

1. You are wrong, it is not a rumor. The "they say" part is only Navi telling Link that she repeats what the Gossip Stones say. Furthermore, the Gossip Stones are always correct. We know this because you need the Mask of Truth, which can read peoples minds, in order to use them. Also, you do know that every advise/fact the Stones give is true, right? Hell, the game even states that the Gossip Stones are wise! Now, what could possibly give you any right say that such a credible source of information is wrong?

2. No matter what any of us say, it is still in the game. It was placed there by the creators. NOTHING can argue with them.

The reason I say your idea is illogical is because Ganon is known in every game exept his apparent origin (OoT/FSA). Even when all of Hyrule is flooded people STILL remember him. Whilst you are suggesting no one even *considers* Ganon being bad in FSA because they forgot? It's rediculaous IMO.


Your opinion is worth nothing. What matters are the facts, and fact is that there is nothing even indicating that Ganon can never be forgotten. You are only making a fool out of yourself by using that argument.

You tell me where you put FSA and I'll give you more feedback.

I place the entire FS series after TWW. Therefore they take place in New Hyrule (Which makes sense with TMC Hyrule being connected to the ocean and FSA Hyrule being an island). The FS is created because the MS is at the bottom of the ocean. My theory, like yours, says that FSA is the prequel to the IW, which takes place right before ALttP (Although it started in OoT).

The IW basically is that Ganon escapes from the FS (With the aid of Vaati?) and obtains the entire Triforce. He somehow removes the FS (By sending it to the DW?) and then wages war on Hyrule. The Sages realise that they need the MS, so they search for it (As said in ALttP). They find the sword and Link use it to defeat Ganon so that he can be sealed in the Dark World by Zelda and the other Sages. The end.

That's not TOO bad, eh?

As I said, they just signed a peace pact. It takes time for people to get used to them. Ganon messed it up for them to build any cred.


Um... You completely ignored the fact that the Gerudo worship Ganondorf in OoT, but loath him in FSA.

And where do you get this idea that the Gerudo ever wanted peace? It is not a fact...

Zelda knew of him and she also saw Ganon in the window in Child Link time. And again, people forgeting about Ganon has not happened even in WW - I don't see it happening here.

So you are saying that because she saw him in a window a couple of years ago it makes her think that he is an ancient demon reborn?

As for TWW: Your opinion =/= fact.

The fact that the King says 'he is the same Ganon the legends speak of' implies that people remember him in legends.


The King also says "Have neither of you heard the tales? Tales of the kingdom spoken of in the legend of the great hero... The place where the power of the gods lies hidden..."

He apparently does not know much about what the people remember.

We see the legend in the start. Everyone and their dog knows that legend.

Once again, WTF? We do not see any sign of the legend on any Island except Outset. The legend in the intro does not mention Ganon's name either.

Proof?


The quote I provided.

I have proof that the title of "King of Darkness" was given to Ganon when he got the Triforce from 2 seperate games. Have you got any proof that the title was given to him from the Trident?


"We give you the power to rule the world. The power of darkness. Evil spirit of magic trident. You are the King of Darkness."

By using common sense you must realise what is said here, even if it is not spelled out that there is more than one origin for Ganon's powers.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 09 December 2005 - 07:30 PM.


#35 Fyxe

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 07:16 PM

The concept of FSA occuring within the same timescale as OoT baffles me entirely. There are so many things wrong with the idea that it makes my brain hurt why anyone would *want* to argue such a thing.

Hero of Legend has pointed out the most important arguements against it already.

I think it's very clear from the text that nobody knows who Ganon is, except Zelda, and Ganondorf is thought of as just a nomad and is not even vaguely worshipped by the Gerudo.

Then of course there's the whole thing about the layout of Hyrule being *entirely* different. If it was intended to be in the same timespan as OoT, then they would of at least made *some* concessions to the overworld design.

Is Death Mountain even a volcano?

Also, there would of been more references to OoT. Other than Link, Zelda, Ganon and the owl, only minor characters show up, which is nothing new, that's been happening for ages in many games. None of the sages, no Ocean Zoras at all make an appearance, etc.

Oh, and everyone, STOP THINKING GANONDORF WAS THERE TO SIGN SOME TREATY. Nothing of the sort was said. I know some of you just love to think that there was a whole war between races, but there is never anything said about the Gerudos or Gorons or Zoras being involved in any such war. This is Zelda, not Lord of the Rings.

And all that is said about Ganondorf visiting is that he is swearing allegiance with the king.

Can you see the man with the
evil eyes?
That is Ganondorf, the leader of
the Gerudos. They hail from the
desert far to the west.
Though he swears allegiance to my
father, I am sure he is not
sincere.


Edited by Fyxe, 09 December 2005 - 07:32 PM.


#36 Fyxe

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 07:39 PM

I just wanted to point this out, too.

The FS Dungeon is part of a Zelda game. It's canon. There is no reason to suggest otherwise. There is a FS dungeon in the Dark World and that's that. Regardless of what you think about it. It's still there.


So you say the Palace of the Four Sword is canon because it's in the game, yet you think the Master Sword in the Oracle games is not canon because it's possible to avoid it completely?

Hey, crazy idea. How about... They're both canon, because they're both in the games. Voila.

#37 Guest_TripleEspresso9_*

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:24 AM

Or, how bout they're both not canon, since it's never explained how each one gets where it is, they're both very easy to avoid, and they're optional easter eggs that aren't required by any stretch of the imagination to advance the plot?

And just to clarify, what I mean by not explained where it is, I mean that, it's never explained how either King Zora came across the Master Sword, or how Patch could actually MAKE it. Also, what's some random palace doing in the Pyramid of Power. How did the FS shards get there? Why isn't it in the Normal world of ALttP? I think if you consider it canon, then you have to consider all of FS part of ALttP as well, because you can't get that optional dungeon w/o playing through FS.

And just saying, like was discussed earlier today, I'm just throwing this out there. This isn't going to convince anyone that strongly believes the opposite of what I do, so I don't really want to start another flame war.

#38 SOAP

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 07:07 AM

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for just a second since this used to be my theory too:

The concept of FSA occuring within the same timescale as OoT baffles me entirely. There are so many things wrong with the idea that it makes my brain hurt why anyone would *want* to argue such a thing.

Hero of Legend has pointed out the most important arguements against it already.

I think it's very clear from the text that nobody knows who Ganon is, except Zelda, and Ganondorf is thought of as just a nomad and is not even vaguely worshipped by the Gerudo.


The way my theory worked was that FSA takes place in the alternate child timeline with the assumption that Link is sent back before Ganondorf could claim the Triforce and congure Hyrule and such. So therefore no one would remember Ganondorf as being the great demon that took over Hyrule, not even Ganon himself. Because in that timeline, none of that ever happened. For all that everyone, including Ganon, knew that his plans were foiled before he could snatch the Triforce. As for the whole ""Ancient Evil Reborn" thing, I believed then that it was reference to a Ganon much older than the one that predated OoT. So even then it's not OoT Ganon she recognizes. It's the premordial Ganon from ancient myths. Switching gears again, even if no one remembered what Ganon did, Link would have known Ganondorf is Ganon, or at least he would have connected the dots when the he first heard the name Ganon mentioned without having one of the Maiden's spell it out for him later on in the game. He should've been the one explaining it to her.

Then of course there's the whole thing about the layout of Hyrule being *entirely* different. If it was intended to be in the same timespan as OoT, then they would of at least made *some* concessions to the overworld design.

Is Death Mountain even a volcano?


Actually I find FSA map very simmilar to the OoT Map. In fact, it seems to bridge the gap between the OoT and ALttP maps together but still leaves room for innovation. I do take beef with the Waterfall of Wishes/Zora's Fountian being called Lake Hylia. It's not even a lake. It's a Waterfall. And the fact that the real Lake Hylia is virtual gone, reduced to a small river delta that flows directly into the sea. But that can be chalked up to a sudden rise of sea level, or the barrier between Lake Hylia and the ocean suddenly giving way. Kakriko moving to another aera of the map is one thing (towns can be rebuilt) but the Village of the Blue Maiden being in Eastern Hyrule (Lost Woods) does not sit well with me at all. At the time of OoT, it was a sacred place not fit for mortals to trespass, let alone settle in and found a thriving village.

As for Death Mountian. The area where you fight the Helmaroc King (???) looks suspicious like a very extinct Death Mountian Caldera.

Also, there would of been more references to OoT. Other than Link, Zelda, Ganon and the owl, only minor characters show up, which is nothing new, that's been happening for ages in many games. None of the sages, no Ocean Zoras at all make an appearance, etc.


Going with my timeline, the sages wouldn't appear in FSA, because they were never awakened. And the Zora... maybe they're chillin' in Zora's Domain...er, I mean Lake Hylia. :)

#39 mohammedali

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:03 PM

Did you not see the quote I posted before? It states that the one who obtains the Trident receives the power of darkness (Thereby becoming the King of Darkness, as said in the quote). What more do you ask for?

Receiving the power of darkness does not make you the king of darkness. We are never told that's the case. It is not canon. We ARE told that when touching the Triforce Ganon gains the title of King of Darkness though. That is canon.

But OoT Ganondorf never changed his name. Even in TWW he says "My name is Ganondorf..." Rather, it was the people of Hyrule that named him "Ganon". This is even stated in the ALttP manual:
In fact, the only games where Ganon actually says that his name is "Ganon" is FSA and the Oracles. So what caused Ganondorf to change his name in FSA? Well, he certainly changes when he obtains the Trident. Hm... The Trident did contain an "evil spirit". Maybe that was the demonic part of the old Ganon's soul? It certainly is possible. Japanese stories often feature such things.

If you play OoT you will see that when he changes into a pig he is called Ganon.

Doopliss said it better than me: "Zelda knows about Ganon in FSA, if the ancient demon wasn't also Ganon, for what reason could she have concluded Ganon is an ancient demon reborn?"

Zelda speaks about Ganon being the evil beast after people knew of his tretury.
When she says "Ganon... this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. " she is refering to the Ganondorf in FSA and not another Ganon that you believe existed before.

The game does not "assume that Ganon is innocent till it's obvious he's not", Ganondorf is not even known by anyone (As opposed to OoT when he is well known) except the Red Maiden:
Ganondorf is nothing but "some desert nomad", he is certainly not the Gerudo King (He is their guardian in FSA. This is a problem to your theory, but I guess you just ignore that).

That's my point. No one thinks of Ganondorf as a potential threat. If this were after someone called Ganon had caused wars and was written about in legends, you would think that a Gerudo named Ganondorf would be the first on the line up. As for linking to OoT, Ganondorf is the only male who is guardian of the Gerudos. This is essentially the same BS for OoT Ganondorf.

Furthermore, Ganondorf is not believed to be innocent by anybody. The Gerudo even state that he is evil.

Regardless, even the maiden doesn't see him as a threat. That's my main point. If he's not seen as a threat after someone as powerful as another Ganondorf from before had killed thousands then that's just plain stupid. He's remembered in every game including WW. Where could FSA be that everyone has forgotten about Ganon but the Dark world still exists?

1. You are wrong, it is not a rumor. The "they say" part is only Navi telling Link that she repeats what the Gossip Stones say. Furthermore, the Gossip Stones are always correct. We know this because you need the Mask of Truth, which can read peoples minds, in order to use them. Also, you do know that every advise/fact the Stones give is true, right? Hell, the game even states that the Gossip Stones are wise! Now, what could possibly give you any right say that such a credible source of information is wrong?

If you read my truthful mind and I said, "They say the moon is made of cheese" and I believed it, would it mean you mask didn't work? In anycase, it's not important. Regardless of whether reincarnation is possible, Ganon is one person who has always been the same person, and it wouldn't make sense for this to be before or after OoT.

2. No matter what any of us say, it is still in the game. It was placed there by the creators. NOTHING can argue with them.
Your opinion is worth nothing. What matters are the facts, and fact is that there is nothing even indicating that Ganon can never be forgotten. You are only making a fool out of yourself by using that argument.
I place the entire FS series after TWW. Therefore they take place in New Hyrule (Which makes sense with TMC Hyrule being connected to the ocean and FSA Hyrule being an island). The FS is created because the MS is at the bottom of the ocean. My theory, like yours, says that FSA is the prequel to the IW, which takes place right before ALttP (Although it started in OoT).

The IW basically is that Ganon escapes from the FS (With the aid of Vaati?) and obtains the entire Triforce. He somehow removes the FS (By sending it to the DW?) and then wages war on Hyrule. The Sages realise that they need the MS, so they search for it (As said in ALttP). They find the sword and Link use it to defeat Ganon so that he can be sealed in the Dark World by Zelda and the other Sages. The end.

OoT Ganon was confirmed as being the same character from aLttP. This goes against the creators quote and the obvious intention of the creators. We have been told that OoT was aLttP BS so at least part of it still should be.

Um... You completely ignored the fact that the Gerudo worship Ganondorf in OoT, but loath him in FSA.

It's a seperate timeline. Things happened differently in both. In one Ganon was in a position to do much damage and was feared and hence worshiped. In the other he didn't have the same oppertunities.

And where do you get this idea that the Gerudo ever wanted peace? It is not a fact...
So you are saying that because she saw him in a window a couple of years ago it makes her think that he is an ancient demon reborn?

She says that way afterwards if I understand correctly.

As for TWW: Your opinion =/= fact.
The King also says "Have neither of you heard the tales? Tales of the kingdom spoken of in the legend of the great hero... The place where the power of the gods lies hidden..."

What? We SEE the legend with Ganon in it. There are people TALKING about Ganondorfs return.

He apparently does not know much about what the people remember.
Once again, WTF? We do not see any sign of the legend on any Island except Outset. The legend in the intro does not mention Ganon's name either.
The quote I provided.
"We give you the power to rule the world. The power of darkness. Evil spirit of magic trident. You are the King of Darkness."

By using common sense you must realise what is said here, even if it is not spelled out that there is more than one origin for Ganon's powers.

If I had more time, I would have argued this fuller, but unfortunately, I have to apply for jobs etc. For now, let me just say that you are making a conjecture on how Ganon became the KoD whereas I am using canon facts. There is no contest in which has more weighting. Good debate though BTW.

I just wanted to point this out, too.
So you say the Palace of the Four Sword is canon because it's in the game, yet you think the Master Sword in the Oracle games is not canon because it's possible to avoid it completely?

Hey, crazy idea. How about... They're both canon, because they're both in the games. Voila.

Perhaps. So where do you put OoX then Fyxe? In any case, the Palace of Four Swords just helps the theory - it's not a necessary extra. I thought I'd put it in there anyway.

snip

Nice theory. I like it. Sorry to not give more feedback, but I end up spending an hour each time I have to reply to this thread and I can't afford that much time during milkrounds. But please, continue amongst yourselves. I'll pop in now and then to answer a few questions.

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#40 Hero of Slime

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:09 PM

Or, how bout they're both not canon, since it's never explained how each one gets where it is, they're both very easy to avoid, and they're optional easter eggs that aren't required by any stretch of the imagination to advance the plot?


I agree with TripleEspresso9. The extra dungeon and the Riddle quest in ALttP both refer to actions done in FS. So they are not valid unless the Links from ALttP and FS are the same.

In the case of the master sword in oracles there are many reasons why it should not be counted as part of the Master Sword's continuity. For one thing there are many ways for Link to get the Master Sword, some of which say that the Master Sword only an upgraded version of the Noble Sword. Also, through the course of the two games Link gets the Master Sword twice.

#41 Fyxe

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:13 PM

Actually, the extra stuff in the GBA ALttP does NOT refer to Four Swords, they are merely unlocked by completing more of Four Swords. If you complete Four Swords, then start playing ALttP, then everything will be already unlocked when you get to the right stage of the game.

And what IF the Noble Sword is the Master Sword? It's possible to find it in the Lost Woods, after all.

And Link does not get the Master Sword twice. He gets it, then takes it from one land to the other.

Or, how bout they're both not canon, since it's never explained how each one gets where it is, they're both very easy to avoid, and they're optional easter eggs that aren't required by any stretch of the imagination to advance the plot?


What, rather like the Fierce Diety's Mask?

#42 Hero of Slime

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:21 PM

And Link does not get the Master Sword twice. He gets it, then takes it from one land to the other.


When Link gives a secret to Farore, she upgrades his old sword to the next level of sword. If Link gets the Master Sword in the first game, but only has the wooden sword in the second game, Farore's secret only turns the wooden sword into the noble sword. And then Link must complete the Trading Sequence io the second game to get the Master Sword.

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:25 PM

Think of it this way. In the other 3 games the MS is featured in, ALttP, OoT, and TWW, you CANNOT advance the plot unless you pull out the MS. You can explore and do whatever you want, but unless you pull out the Master Sword, you can't finish the game. That's different in the Oracles. You can completely avoid the MS. Next, as for what you said about the Lost Woods, I'm sure you know that the Oracles don't take place in Hyrule. Holdrum's Lost Woods =/= Hyrule's Lost Woods.

And finally, show me the storyline or timeline significance that the FDM has. I really can't think of anything. Sure, it's probably the best item in Zelda game history, but it's not important to the timeline, unless I'm forgetting something.

#44 Fyxe

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:44 PM

Really, not important to the storyline? Despite the fact that if you haven't done the sequence to get the mask, half of the ending doesn't exist since you haven't fixed anyone's problems, and the whole sequence with the children inside the Moon has no relevance, and considering the FD's Mask is essentially the counterpart to Majora's Mask and sheds some more light on what Majora actually is?

I'd say that's rather important.

Just because you can avoid an item doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You can avoid the Magic Sword and Magic Shield in TLoZ, I believe, yet Link has both as his equipment in the sequel.

Sidequests are part of the game. If something CAN happen, then who are you to say it's not canon?

#45 Hero of Slime

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 06:57 PM

What about sidequests where there are multiple possibilites but only one event can happen?

#46 Doopliss

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 10:18 PM

If OoT is aLttP BS, then granting a wish and the Triforce spliting can definately happen. There is no evidence to the contrary.


Yes, there’s nothing contrary to it, but is there anything that implies it? On the other hand, there’s plenty of evidence that implies the Triforce didn’t split. And, as I said before, you’d still have to use fanfic to explain how the other pieces got back to the Sacred Realm.

What? Read the Quote FAQ. You obviously haven't researched this properally. The game constantly assumes that Ganon is innocent till it's obvious he's not. That was my point. No one could even assume Ganon is corrupt till late in the game (other than his Deku Scrub minions that is).


Zelda immediately identifies Ganon as an evil being, while the Gerudos say Ganon is a greedy man, how is he a good person to others’ eyes?

The only hint towards possible reincarnation in OoT was from the gossip stones that said KG was said to be a sage reincarnated. Other than that rumour I can't think of any proof that it happens, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
The reason I say your idea is illogical is because Ganon is known in every game exept his apparent origin (OoT/FSA). Even when all of Hyrule is flooded people STILL remember him. Whilst you are suggesting no one even *considers* Ganon being bad in FSA because they forgot? It's rediculaous IMO.


But, you just took as a fact that Gerudos go look for boyfriends to support your theory. Not everyone remembers about Ganon, though, just the King of Red Lions does know his real identity, ordinary people (and even Zelda) just know about an ancient demon.

I have proof that the title of "King of Darkness" was given to Ganon when he got the Triforce from 2 seperate games. Have you got any proof that the title was given to him from the Trident?


What are those two proves? The tablet next to the Trident says “You are the King of Darkness...”.

And where do you get this idea that the Gerudo ever wanted peace? It is not a fact...


I agree completely, actually, what Ganon wants is the Ocarina of Time. Who knows, maybe the Gerudos didn’t even know about the agreement between the king and Ganondorf.

Zelda speaks about Ganon being the evil beast after people knew of his tretury.
When she says "Ganon... this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. " she is refering to the Ganondorf in FSA and not another Ganon that you believe existed before.


But then, where did she get the ancient evil reborn thing from?

As for linking to OoT, Ganondorf is the only male who is guardian of the Gerudos. This is essentially the same BS for OoT Ganondorf.


Hmm, isn’t guardian different to king?

Where could FSA be that everyone has forgotten about Ganon but the Dark world still exists?


The Dark World apparently last for an indefinite time. We discover that Ganon is behind everything until late in the game in ALttP, people didn’t know the Dark World was because of Ganon, both in FSA and in ALttP.

OoT Ganon was confirmed as being the same character from aLttP. This goes against the creators quote and the obvious intention of the creators. We have been told that OoT was aLttP BS so at least part of it still should be.


How can you prove Ganon is the same in OoT and in ALttP’s backstory?

What? We SEE the legend with Ganon in it. There are people TALKING about Ganondorfs return.


Please reed above. No one but the King of Red Lions know that the demon from the legend is Ganondorf.

What about sidequests where there are multiple possibilites but only one event can happen?


Which ones?

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 12:45 AM

But seriously, Fyxe, I know that the FDL has great importance to the storyline of MM, but as of now, it has no significance whatsoever to the whole entire timeline. If I'm forgettting something, please, tell me.

#48 Fatgoron

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 09:50 AM

Or, how bout they're both not canon, since it's never explained how each one gets where it is, they're both very easy to avoid, and they're optional easter eggs that aren't required by any stretch of the imagination to advance the plot?

Also, what's some random palace doing in the Pyramid of Power. How did the FS shards get there? Why isn't it in the Normal world of ALttP? I think if you consider it canon, then you have to consider all of FS part of ALttP as well, because you can't get that optional dungeon w/o playing through FS.

The way I look at the MS in Oracles, is that it exists within the scope of the game's story. It's been written in as a possibility, and I have the MS in both games. Wether or not this is avoidable, to me, doesn't matter, since the MS is availible.
If the MS is availible for me in the games, then it must exist in some form for the entire duration of the game, and there is some explanation as to why or how it is there.

An analogy might be Frodo not taking sting in LoTR. Regardless wether chooses to accept the weapon or not, it exists within the world he inhabits, and has some effect, so far as a sword can, within that world. For instance being a mutually exclusive [so far as we know] item, that there is only one of.

The second part I have a rather different interperetation of aswell.
FSA ties quite well into aLttP[remake], as Ganon was sealed in the FS at the end of FSA, then has it guarded in a dungeon in aLttP. Obviously something has to happen in between, but he has a good reason to keep it from any hero who might pop up.
Another link between the games is shadow link, who in FSA ws created by Ganon using the Dark Mirror, and in aLttP guarded the FS for him.

The positioning of the PotFS makes perfect sense aswell. Housing it in the same building as the Triforce keeps it within arms reach of the type of power capable of destroying it forever, should worse come to worse, and it makes it a lot harder to use it against him.

I consider FS to have a causal relation to aLttP, whilst not being a rsult of anything form aLttP. That being that if FS never happened, then the PotFS would never exist. Hence the player has to journey back through time to experience a part of Hyrule's history so that those events take place within their version of history.(that version being limited to their game)
We as the player have to see to it that Vaati is sealed in the FS so that FSA can happen, which in turn gives Ganon reason to create the PotFS, otherwise we wouldn't be able to experience it.

#49 andy24

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 11:09 AM

I'm gonna throw a new idea into all this, after finishin oracles zelda explained the ganon that twinrova resurected was a mindless killing ganon (sorry i dont have the exact quote) and not the real ganon we had seen in previous games. he had a trident in the oracle games too. what im gettin at is at the end of alttp link wished ganon out of existence which is why a mindless ganon could only be brought back. all ganon seems to say in FSA is "kil" and "destroy" etc. could this be the same mindless ganon from the oracle games. therefore placeing the FSgames after the oracles.

just to say i dont believe in multiple ganons, and that the mindless ganon was the spell gone wrong from oracles because the true ganon was wished from existence

#50 Hero of Slime

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 01:13 PM

Which ones?

Such as the Master Sword quest in Oracles, Link can get the Master Sword the first time by: upgrading his Noble Sword, finding the Master sword in the Lost woods, or Repairing the broken sword. All options are possible but only one can actually happen.

Edited by The Zol, 11 December 2005 - 01:15 PM.


#51 FDL

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 03:22 PM

The way I look at the MS in Oracles, is that it exists within the scope of the game's story. It's been written in as a possibility, and I have the MS in both games. Wether or not this is avoidable, to me, doesn't matter, since the MS is availible.
If the MS is availible for me in the games, then it must exist in some form for the entire duration of the game, and there is some explanation as to why or how it is there.

An analogy might be Frodo not taking sting in LoTR. Regardless wether chooses to accept the weapon or not, it exists within the world he inhabits, and has some effect, so far as a sword can, within that world. For instance being a mutually exclusive [so far as we know] item, that there is only one of.

The second part I have a rather different interperetation of aswell.
FSA ties quite well into aLttP[remake], as Ganon was sealed in the FS at the end of FSA, then has it guarded in a dungeon in aLttP. Obviously something has to happen in between, but he has a good reason to keep it from any hero who might pop up.
Another link between the games is shadow link, who in FSA ws created by Ganon using the Dark Mirror, and in aLttP guarded the FS for him.

The positioning of the PotFS makes perfect sense aswell. Housing it in the same building as the Triforce keeps it within arms reach of the type of power capable of destroying it forever, should worse come to worse, and it makes it a lot harder to use it against him.

I consider FS to have a causal relation to aLttP, whilst not being a rsult of anything form aLttP. That being that if FS never happened, then the PotFS would never exist. Hence the player has to journey back through time to experience a part of Hyrule's history so that those events take place within their version of history.(that version being limited to their game)
We as the player have to see to it that Vaati is sealed in the FS so that FSA can happen, which in turn gives Ganon reason to create the PotFS, otherwise we wouldn't be able to experience it.


I agree with most of this. I think that FSA wasn't the IW(I realized I said that a while ago but I didn't mean it the way it sounded) but I think FSA was the events that happened leading up to the sealing of Ganon. I think after FSA the FS resonates evil energy and is sealed in the Dark World/Sacred Realm by the Maidens from FSA. Ganon breaks out of the sword, shattering it into four shards(which are the shards obtained by Link in the PoTFS in ALttP) and Ganon takes the Triforce but the Dark World/Sacred Realm is sealed before he can go back to Hyrule. I say this is the case because of TWW. If it wasn't proven that TWW is after OoT I'd say ALttP was OoT's sequel. But because of TWW the only way ALttP still works is either with a split timeline or placing it after FSA. But I don't know, I haven't said what I think the timeline/timelines has placement-wise because I want to wait till TP is released.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 11 December 2005 - 03:24 PM.


#52 Fyxe

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 08:34 PM

In quick reference to what Zol said, it doesn't actually matter which option occurs, merely that the option is possible in the first place. Arguing about what option occurs is about as useful as arguing about what Link should call the child in the Oracle games. But just because something is optional doesn't mean Link doesn't do it. Just dungeon hopping means you miss half of each game, in most cases.

But seriously, Fyxe, I know that the FDL has great importance to the storyline of MM, but as of now, it has no significance whatsoever to the whole entire timeline. If I'm forgettting something, please, tell me.


Call me nuts, but I think the plot of the game in the series is kind of what makes the whole timeline have any kind of point in the first place.

The plot of a single game has a huge relevence on the timeline. You can't make up rules for one game and then another rule for what you call 'the whole timeline'. The games ARE the timeline.

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 11:28 PM

You're either misunderstanding me or dodging what I'm asking. Say that end quote of ALttP about the MS sleeping forever is supposed to be taken exactly like it's said, then THAT has great influence and importance to the timeline. Does the FDM influence, say, where TWW goes in the timeline? No. It doesn't affect any game's placement, so it has little overall timeline importance.

#54 Fyxe

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 07:13 PM

You're missing the point I was trying to make. You can't make one rule for one part of the storyline, just because it has significance to placement, and another rule for another part of the storyline just because it is limited to the details of one particular game or event.

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 08:06 PM

^And why's that? I think that's perfectly fine. Why waste your time on trivial details?

#56 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 10:17 PM

(Mohammedali) The war doesn't mention the Triforce at all. It just happened after Ganon got powerful from touching the Triforce. No one is stated as knowing about him getting it, nor is it the reason for war.

What the hell have you been smoking? Is anyone else reading Mo's comments about the IW? Ganon seizing the Triforce is the very reason why the IW occurred. In the aLttP BS, the MS is mentioned as being created just in case an evil force were to take the Triforce, then later the story mentions that the sages looked for someone to hold the sword after Ganon began his campaign. Why would they look for someone to possesse the MS if they didn't know the Triforce was seized by evil or threatened by it? Why would they include those same parts in the same story? It because they're related and helps to show why the IW occurred and that people were aware. Heck...why didn't the

(Mohammedali) That's the narraitor speaking so it's different. It doesn't mean that all the people in Hyrule knew about it, and even if they did, it doesn't mean they have to talk about it in FSA. Fact is, the Triforce isn't mentioned so it doesn't matter.


The story of the IW is the account of a war that has been passed down for generations. The only way the narrator of this account can mention Ganon touching the Triforce is if someone, or many others, knew of this. Thus people knew, at the time of the IW, that Ganon had breached the Golden Land.

(Mohammedali) No. It's not proven and it doesn't matter.


Yes it does...go back and read the Jap version in consideration of what I've just mentioned.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 14 December 2005 - 10:17 PM.


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Posted 15 December 2005 - 12:47 AM

I've noticed this with pretty much everyone. There are more than likely some Japanese users on this board, and Jap can be considered racially offensive to Japanese people, so I'd suggest using JPN version instead of Jap version.

#58 mohammedali

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 07:08 AM

Yes, there’s nothing contrary to it, but is there anything that implies it? On the other hand, there’s plenty of evidence that implies the Triforce didn’t split. And, as I said before, you’d still have to use fanfic to explain how the other pieces got back to the Sacred Realm.

The fact that we are told the Triforce split in OoT, and told in aLttP and OoT that Ganon got the SR after touching the Triforce, as well as told in aLttP that Ganon got a wish all implies that Ganon gets his wish when he touches the Triforce. This is the obvious link we make by putting OoT as aLttP BS. It's not a problem created by this theory. Most people can see that obvious link between the games, not to mention the fact that the games have been confirmed to have this relationship.

Zelda immediately identifies Ganon as an evil being, while the Gerudos say Ganon is a greedy man, how is he a good person to others’ eyes?

What I meant to say was Ganon is not seen as a big threat in FSA. For someone who caused the IW, you would think people would be a little more suspicious of him.

But, you just took as a fact that Gerudos go look for boyfriends to support your theory. Not everyone remembers about Ganon, though, just the King of Red Lions does know his real identity, ordinary people (and even Zelda) just know about an ancient demon.

My point about WW is it is an extreme example. It's at a time when Hyrule doesn't even exist / is remembered anymore. Even in this situation, people know and fear Ganon. Some even know his past.

What are those two proves? The tablet next to the Trident says “You are the King of Darkness...”.
I agree completely, actually, what Ganon wants is the Ocarina of Time. Who knows, maybe the Gerudos didn’t even know about the agreement between the king and Ganondorf.
But then, where did she get the ancient evil reborn thing from?

I'm not saying he can't be an ancient evil reborn. There is just no reason to believe that this ancient evil was also named Ganon.

Hmm, isn’t guardian different to king?

I'm guessing that Ganon just calls himself King and only after he gains the Triforce does he actually manage to force that title on the Gerudos. Either that, or there is a group of Gerudos that are more loyal to him and call him King.

The Dark World apparently last for an indefinite time. We discover that Ganon is behind everything until late in the game in ALttP, people didn’t know the Dark World was because of Ganon, both in FSA and in ALttP.

The DW stops existing after aLttP and started existing after OoT. Hence, if FSA features the DW, it is logical to put it after OoT and before aLttP somewhere.

How can you prove Ganon is the same in OoT and in ALttP’s backstory?

The character designer quotes that Ganon in OoT was not an original character, but taken from the older games. We have confirmation that the Ganons in all the games before OoT are definately the same from ingame quotes, manuals and boxes.


What the hell have you been smoking? Is anyone else reading Mo's comments about the IW? Ganon seizing the Triforce is the very reason why the IW occurred. In the aLttP BS, the MS is mentioned as being created just in case an evil force were to take the Triforce, then later the story mentions that the sages looked for someone to hold the sword after Ganon began his campaign. Why would they look for someone to possesse the MS if they didn't know the Triforce was seized by evil or threatened by it? Why would they include those same parts in the same story? It because they're related and helps to show why the IW occurred and that people were aware. Heck...why didn't the

It's not necessary that the IW was all due to the Triforce. There is a chance that they didn't realise what power Ganon had, just knew that he had power. The MS would be an obvious choice of weapon to arm someone with as it is powerful enough to take on the Triforce and that's the most powerful item in the land. However, they didn't use it.

The story of the IW is the account of a war that has been passed down for generations. The only way the narrator of this account can mention Ganon touching the Triforce is if someone, or many others, knew of this. Thus people knew, at the time of the IW, that Ganon had breached the Golden Land.

2 points. Firstly, I take the narraitor to have more knowledge of the situation than the people of Hyrule, and hence he can mention that it was the Triforce even if no one / very few people knew. Secondly, the fact that it's generations afterwards means that people may have later discovered about the Triforce etc. Hence, although in FSA they may not be aware of the Triforce's involvement, they may have discovered it by the time of aLttP.

Mohammed Ali

#59 Fyxe

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 11:31 AM

^And why's that? I think that's perfectly fine. Why waste your time on trivial details?


How is it fine to have one rule when it suits you and another when it doesn't? That's as bad as making stuff up.

#60 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 03:56 PM

According to your theory, Mohammedali, you place FSA between the adult and child timeline of OOT--with FSA happening sometime after child Link returns to the past. So, on the child timeline the order would be OOT (past)-FSA-IW-aLttP.

Question #1 earlier in OOT when Link and Zelda first met, Zelda gives you all sorts of info about Ganondorf and who he is (and also later in the future). She tells Link everything with the exception of him being an ancient demon reborn--which is what she says about Ganon in FSA, but not in OOT. I know things will happen differently and all, but both timelines still share the same past and that doesn't change who Ganondorf once was in that shared past.

Question #2) You still have not offered a solid canon source supporting that when Link returns to the past, he won't remember anything about the alternate future. Through out OOT, when Link is going between past and future, Link still remembers what he has to do. How could he complete certain dungeons that required for him to use ideas he learned in the future if he didn't remember? Also, if Link doesn't remember anything he's still going to make the same mistake, which will allow Ganon into the Sacred Realm-again. The reason I bring this issue up is due to your speculation of FSA occuring a little after child Link returns to the past. Link would've known about Ganon and what he was up to once he saw Dark Link at the beginning of FSA. Especially since Adult Link fought against Dark Link, who was the boss of the water temple level, in the alternate future. In FSA...Link knows nothing about Ganon. Once again, it is absolute fanfic to suggest that Link remembers nothing when he goes back into the past.

The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.


Question #3) The above quote was taken from the Japanese version of the IW. You know...the version many of you love so much. Like the American version, it says the sages had to search for a hero. However, the American version doesn't mention that the sages had to search for the Master Sword's existence--only the Jap version mentions this. I don't recall the sages needing to search for the MS in OOT. Zelda (who's also a sage) and Rauru (the sage of light) knew of the Master Sword's whereabouts.

(Mohammedali) It's not necessary that the IW was all due to the Triforce. There is a chance that they didn't realise what power Ganon had, just knew that he had power. The MS would be an obvious choice of weapon to arm someone with as it is powerful enough to take on the Triforce and that's the most powerful item in the land. However, they didn't use it....

2 points. Firstly, I take the narraitor to have more knowledge of the situation than the people of Hyrule, and hence he can mention that it was the Triforce even if no one / very few people knew. Secondly, the fact that it's generations afterwards means that people may have later discovered about the Triforce etc. Hence, although in FSA they may not be aware of the Triforce's involvement, they may have discovered it by the time of aLttP.


Question #4) If Ganon had the Triforce at the time of FSA, then Zelda would've known along with the maidens (who are traditionally sage descendants). In OOT, when the Triforce was breached, Zelda said that a voice from the Sacred Realm reaches out to the sages when evil threatens it. However this is not the case in FSA--why? This is because Ganon does not have the Triforce in FSA. Like I said before people, espcially the sages, knew the source of Ganon's power at the time of the IW.

The issues surrounding the above four questions, and others...is reason enough to show that FSA does not occur around the time of OOT.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 16 December 2005 - 03:57 PM.





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