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Why does everybody seem to assume that ST will connect to either the Four Swords series or the NES games?


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#31 SOAP

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:29 AM

ST-TMC seems doubtful because the only tenuous link between this game and the Four Swords series is the presence of Force Gems. That's like arguing timeline placement based on the currency value of rupees.


I don't think that an accurate comparison. Force Gems play much bigger role than simple currency.

#32 Person

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:05 PM


ST-TMC seems doubtful because the only tenuous link between this game and the Four Swords series is the presence of Force Gems. That's like arguing timeline placement based on the currency value of rupees.


I don't think that an accurate comparison. Force Gems play much bigger role than simple currency.

Their role is never consistent, however. In FSA, they power the Four Sword. In PH, they act as magic keys. In ST, they power the Spirit Tracks. They appear to be a catch-all magical macguffin now, not something that Nintendo would actually base a timeline off of. If we put the FS games after ST, we also have to wonder where the Spirit Tracks and Tower of Spirits went.

#33 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:09 PM

Same place every other goddamned feature of every map goes. Fuck-all.

The Force Gems, however, do have a storyline role, however minor.

#34 Sign of Justice

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 08:11 AM

Geography is lol

Aren't Force Gem's just concentrated Life Force (I haven't actually finished ST yet, but I've heard quite a few people say this, so I doubt it's completely wrong); so they could be anywhere in the timeline, right?

#35 Person

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 12:40 PM

Geography is lol

Aren't Force Gem's just concentrated Life Force (I haven't actually finished ST yet, but I've heard quite a few people say this, so I doubt it's completely wrong); so they could be anywhere in the timeline, right?

Exactly. However, the word for "Light Force" and "Life Force" is the same in Japanese, so it would imply that this game happens after the Picori gave the Light Force to the humans in TMC's backstory.

#36 Wolflink001

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 01:11 PM

My head hurts...

#37 CID Farwin

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:52 PM

My head hurts...

You'd better get used to that.

#38 Person

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:06 PM


My head hurts...

You'd better get used to that.

We need a sign over the Storyline forums:
ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE.

#39 Average Gamer

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:10 PM

Exactly. However, the word for "Light Force" and "Life Force" is the same in Japanese, so it would imply that this game happens after the Picori gave the Light Force to the humans in TMC's backstory.


How so? Wasn't the Light Force just a large mass of Life Force given to Hyrule's Royal Family as a gift? I've heard nothing about the Picori enabling the existence of Force Gems.

#40 Person

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 10:57 PM

Exactly. However, the word for "Light Force" and "Life Force" is the same in Japanese, so it would imply that this game happens after the Picori gave the Light Force to the humans in TMC's backstory.


How so? Wasn't the Light Force just a large mass of Life Force given to Hyrule's Royal Family as a gift? I've heard nothing about the Picori enabling the existence of Force Gems.

Force gems are concentrated Life Force. The Light Force was given to the humans by the Picori.

#41 Average Gamer

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 02:42 AM

I'd first like to say that I misread your initial post; I thought that you were claiming that TMC would come after ST instead of before it.

Force gems are concentrated Life Force. The Light Force was given to the humans by the Picori.


Yes, but, to my knowledge, nothing suggests that all Force Gems came from the Light Force. Life Force was always around, and the Picori simply gathered a lot of it and gave it to Hyrule's Royal Family as a gift.

I'm incredibly tired, so I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you again.

#42 wisp

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 03:07 AM

So should it be assumed that "This is a tale from long ago. It's the tale of the first settlers of this land" refers only to the backstory in the beginning of ST and not to ST itself?

(Holy shit, wisp posted in Storyline... I hope I remembered my hard hat...)

#43 Arturo

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 04:04 AM

Actually, Zythe, that isn't what you said. You did, however, get defensive and make snide remarks towards people.

Actually it's the second time you post here, wifey...

Spoiler


#44 wisp

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 04:09 AM

o.O;

Wooowwwwww, that was four years ago... how did you even remember that? XD

#45 Arturo

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:08 AM

Advanced Search, baby :whistle:

#46 Altum

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:32 AM

Well, if the Japanese terms for Life Force and Light Force are identical, then shouldn't we not distinguish between the terms ourselves? Couldn't it just be that NoA screwed up again with translations?

Considering the possibility that they're both the same exact concept, I think ST connects to the FS series in a certain way, but not in any "direct" manner. If anything, it might suggest that TMC's placement at the beginning of the timelines may be correct, especially if FS/FSA take place in the CT (which is what I'm leaning towards personally). It would allow for the force gems to exist in both timelines due to this Light/Life Force given by the Minish in TMC's backstory. This also goes hand-in-hand with the thought that TMC serves as an origin tale of sorts.

I still haven't got around to getting ST or even playing it in the slightest, though, so I can't really say too much regarding the new game (yet). However, I heard there are a lot of similarities between Niko's story and the backstory of TMC involving the Hero of Men, which could actually make the FS series, including TMC, occur in the AT, with at least TMC between PH and ST, as much as that would muck up a timeline that was actually starting to straighten itself out.

Personally, since we see PH with force gems, I believe TMC would still have to come earlier in the timeline, at least if we're to postulate that Life Force/Light Force are the same thing and just a translation inconsistency.

Edited by Altum, 15 December 2009 - 03:27 PM.


#47 Showsni

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 03:00 PM

So should it be assumed that "This is a tale from long ago. It's the tale of the first settlers of this land" refers only to the backstory in the beginning of ST and not to ST itself?

(Holy shit, wisp posted in Storyline... I hope I remembered my hard hat...)


Pretty sure it's referring to the backstory; you get
"This is a tale from long ago. The tale of the first people of this land."
(Backstory)
"But now the shackles are disappearing and darkness once again threatens the land..."

So, the game is the "now" and the backstory is the "long ago."

Aw, poor Zythe. :P


#48 CID Farwin

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 05:52 PM

o.O;

Wooowwwwww, that was four years ago... how did you even remember that? XD

This is Zelda Storyline.

WE REMEMBER ALL!


#49 SOAP

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 02:20 AM

I hate it when Storyline debates boil down to semantics.... <_<
Light Force. Life Force. Force. It doesn't matter to me. It's energy that apparently can manifest as triangular crystals thingies and seems to be concentrated in Hyrulean royal women. That's enough consistency for me to say that there's a connection between PH>ST and the FS games. If I was half crazy I'd even go as far as to say that the Triforce itself is three super Force Gems craeted from the essenses of the Goddesses. But I'm not that crazy... yet. Keep splitting hairs and you guys might tip me over that edge.

And I miss Zythe. :(

#50 Sign of Justice

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 02:34 AM

Light Force. Life Force. Force. It doesn't matter to me. It's energy that apparently can manifest as triangular crystals thingies and seems to be concentrated in Hyrulean royal women. That's enough consistency for me to say that there's a connection between PH>ST and the FS games

It's energy that manifests FROM life force.

As long as there is life force, there can be force gems (well force).

#51 Altum

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:23 AM

I hate it when Storyline debates boil down to semantics.... <_<
Light Force. Life Force. Force. It doesn't matter to me. It's energy that apparently can manifest as triangular crystals thingies and seems to be concentrated in Hyrulean royal women. That's enough consistency for me to say that there's a connection between PH>ST and the FS games. If I was half crazy I'd even go as far as to say that the Triforce itself is three super Force Gems created from the essences of the Goddesses. But I'm not that crazy... yet. Keep splitting hairs and you guys might tip me over that edge.

And I miss Zythe. :(


While I agree it's semantics, and I agree it's establishing a sort of connection, it's not saying that either of those games lead into them. The connection is that there are Force Gems. If this "force" was given to Hylians by the Minish (as was suggested in TMC), then that would place TMC before PH. If it's before PH, and in a Hyrule, it's likely before the split or sometime after the adult ending of OoT but before the flood. I would wager it's before OoT, considering the general absence of Ganon and little reference to the Triforce beyond aesthetics. If TMC is before OoT and before the split, then FS/FSA could be in the CT and PH>ST in the AT without anything really changing.

ST establishes a connection, but its not a "sequel connection" forcing the FS games into the CT. It's more or less saying the origins of this Life Force, which *could* be the same as the Light Force considering the Japanese term for both is the same, would have to occur earlier than PH>ST. And TMC can't be severed from its backstory really.

I think, if anything, ST is establishing that TMC is still one of the older tales, judging by the Japanese, and that Ganon does seem to be absent from the AT for now, but everything else is more or less untouched.

#52 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 02:08 PM

If I was half crazy I'd even go as far as to say that the Triforce itself is three super Force Gems craeted from the essenses of the Goddesses. But I'm not that crazy... yet. Keep splitting hairs and you guys might tip me over that edge.


I tried to push this idea too; the only problem is that they're not shaped properly. Baww.

#53 CID Farwin

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 05:47 PM

I hate it when Storyline debates boil down to semantics.... <_<
Light Force. Life Force. Force. It doesn't matter to me. It's energy that apparently can manifest as triangular crystals thingies and seems to be concentrated in Hyrulean royal women. That's enough consistency for me to say that there's a connection between PH>ST and the FS games. If I was half crazy I'd even go as far as to say that the Triforce itself is three super Force Gems craeted from the essenses of the Goddesses. But I'm not that crazy... yet. Keep splitting hairs and you guys might tip me over that edge.

And I miss Zythe. :(

The semantics are completely irrelevant, since Light Force, Life Force, and Force Gems are all just "Force" in Japanese. Or, rather, フォース.

They're all midichlorians, so what's the difference. ;d

#54 SOAP

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:37 PM

If I was half crazy I'd even go as far as to say that the Triforce itself is three super Force Gems craeted from the essenses of the Goddesses. But I'm not that crazy... yet. Keep splitting hairs and you guys might tip me over that edge.


I tried to push this idea too; the only problem is that they're not shaped properly. Baww.


They're a fundementally different kind of Cylon..err, I mean Force Gems! Bah, same diff.

*goes outside to water the Epileptic Trees.*

#55 Altum

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 03:06 PM

I think it's a good possibility. I mean, in games where the force seems to manifest within Zelda, it seems in line with the Triforce of Wisdom. Not to mention the Hero of Men wielded it when the Minish gave it to them. Even though there's no reason to think he was a Triforce bearer, it is some sort of power associated with the Hero to overcome evil in that instance. I think the Light/Life Force isn't that different in nature than the Goddesses' powers. If anything, it seems correlated with the Goddesses, what with Zelda wielding light against Ganon in several games, at least in TP seemingly linked to the Light Spirits. It fills the same niches. The Triforce possibly being some sort of super-Force Gem isn't that big of a stretch.

#56 ganonlord6000

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:55 PM

Actually the end of ST actually references TMC in a way. (spoilers begin here) It mentions that Zelda has a sacred power granted to her people long ago. I think ST's spirits just might be the minish. I shouldn't have to say what this "sacred power" is, but I'll mention it anyways: the light force. considering the triforce isn't even mentioned in ST, as well as the only places TMC can fit due to landmarks (more reliable that geography), after ST is out of the question. Why is it that we keep uncovering more reasons for TMC to be first? So ST supports what Impossible calls the COST.

#57 Raien

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:36 PM

Actually the end of ST actually references TMC in a way. (spoilers begin here) It mentions that Zelda has a sacred power granted to her people long ago. I think ST's spirits just might be the minish. I shouldn't have to say what this "sacred power" is, but I'll mention it anyways: the light force.


Why couldn't it be the Hylians' magic, which was granted to them by the gods? The ability to hear the voices of the gods played a part in TWW's narrative after all, as it allowed the Hylians to escape the flood. The connection there is surely stronger than to TMC.

Edited by Raien, 18 December 2009 - 07:38 PM.


#58 Altum

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 10:21 PM

Actually the end of ST actually references TMC in a way. (spoilers begin here) It mentions that Zelda has a sacred power granted to her people long ago. I think ST's spirits just might be the minish. I shouldn't have to say what this "sacred power" is, but I'll mention it anyways: the light force. considering the triforce isn't even mentioned in ST, as well as the only places TMC can fit due to landmarks (more reliable that geography), after ST is out of the question. Why is it that we keep uncovering more reasons for TMC to be first? So ST supports what Impossible calls the COST.


There are a lot of "sacred powers" granted to the Hylians, it seems. And her people are Hylians, traditional ones. This power could've been passed to them really early in the timelines, and judging by the "long ago" thing, I'd consider that the case.

I haven't played the game yet, but I agree, from what I've read/heard, that ST references TMC and the other FS games. But it doesn't imply that they have to all happen afterwards or even be in the same timeline. If it's the Life/Light Force that Zelda is referencing, TMC doesn't magically have to be right next to it. I could still have happened early in the timeline and be just as true. All this game implies, to me, is that TMC happened before the adult split, considering that these forces are likely the same thing. The gems are at least in PH, and there isn't a gap between TWW and PH where Hyrule could have had some problems with Vaati. So, I'd say that TMC is before the split.

But I still need to play it. I think I'll be picking it up next week.

Why couldn't it be the Hylians' magic, which was granted to them by the gods? The ability to hear the voices of the gods played a part in TWW's narrative after all, as it allowed the Hylians to escape the flood. The connection there is surely stronger than to TMC.


Right. This power could be different things. The "Light Force" from the Minish. The magic/protection from the Goddesses. Some random other thing. Who knows?

Edited by Altum, 18 December 2009 - 10:22 PM.


#59 ganonlord6000

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:38 AM


Actually the end of ST actually references TMC in a way. (spoilers begin here) It mentions that Zelda has a sacred power granted to her people long ago. I think ST's spirits just might be the minish. I shouldn't have to say what this "sacred power" is, but I'll mention it anyways: the light force.


Why couldn't it be the Hylians' magic, which was granted to them by the gods? The ability to hear the voices of the gods played a part in TWW's narrative after all, as it allowed the Hylians to escape the flood. The connection there is surely stronger than to TMC.

The Hylians are practically gone by ST (there were less than 10 in TWW). And ALL hylians have the ability you mentioned. I was refering to a sacred power that only Zelda possesses. That's what ST is refering to. It can't be the ToW. That's in the SR. It can only be the light force. It still implies that TMC has to occur early on in the timeline, however.


I haven't played the game yet, but I agree, from what I've read/heard, that ST references TMC and the other FS games. But it doesn't imply that they have to all happen afterwards or even be in the same timeline. If it's the Life/Light Force that Zelda is referencing, TMC doesn't magically have to be right next to it. I could still have happened early in the timeline and be just as true. All this game implies, to me, is that TMC happened before the adult split, considering that these forces are likely the same thing. The gems are at least in PH, and there isn't a gap between TWW and PH where Hyrule could have had some problems with Vaati. So, I'd say that TMC is before the split.

What do you think I was saying? ST implies that TMC happens some time before TWW trilogy (TWW, PH, and ST). Hence, it's before OOT. I think that some of us can now assume that Nintendo always wanted TMC to be first. There were only two places TMC could fit in the first place.

So should it be assumed that "This is a tale from long ago. It's the tale of the first settlers of this land" refers only to the backstory in the beginning of ST and not to ST itself?

(Holy shit, wisp posted in Storyline... I hope I remembered my hard hat...)


You think the thoerizing boards HERE are bad?!!!!!! LA's storyline boards are EXTREMLY tame next to ZU, ZI, and all of the other ones. I could tell you stories about those. Go there, and you'll miss this board.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 19 December 2009 - 11:44 AM.


#60 Raien

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 12:50 PM

The Hylians are practically gone by ST (there were less than 10 in TWW). And ALL hylians have the ability you mentioned. I was refering to a sacred power that only Zelda possesses. That's what ST is refering to. It can't be the ToW. That's in the SR. It can only be the light force. It still implies that TMC has to occur early on in the timeline, however.


Every Zelda game since Zelda II has made reference to Princess Zelda, if not the Royal Family in general, possessing magic powers. In ALttP, Zelda was one of the Sages whose Hylian magic had survived the decline of the race. There is absolutely no reason to eliminate this narrative constant just so you can force through your loose ST-TMC connection.




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