103 replies to this topic

[Average Gamer]

'Raien', on 19 Dec 2009 - 5:50 PM, said:

Every Zelda game since Zelda II has made reference to Princess Zelda, if not the Royal Family in general, possessing magic powers. In ALttP, Zelda was one of the Sages whose Hylian magic had survived the decline of the race.

Technically, the maidens in ALttP didn't count as Sages, and the Hylians were still seen as a dead race.

I've seen some people here and on ZU saying that the Lokomo may have been the Picori. Why are they saying that? The Lokomo seem to consist of seven spirits, whereas the Picori, to my knowledge, are an actual race that can merely visit Hyrule every hundred years.

[Altum]

'ganonlord6000', on 19 Dec 2009 - 4:38 PM, said:

The Hylians are practically gone by ST (there were less than 10 in TWW). And ALL hylians have the ability you mentioned. I was refering to a sacred power that only Zelda possesses. That's what ST is refering to. It can't be the ToW. That's in the SR. It can only be the light force. It still implies that TMC has to occur early on in the timeline, however.

There were less than ten that we saw in TWW. But, if anything, the humans in the AT seem to be descendants of the Hylians. And you just said that Zelda referred to a power passed to her people long ago, correct? I don't have the game, so I can't comment with full knowledge, but you said Zelda comments on a power passed to her people long ago, and now you're referring to a power that only Zelda possesses. Which is it? Just so I can better understand the issue at hand.

We also don't know if the ToW is in the Sacred Realm or not, and the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm in TP while still affecting its bearers, so that's not entirely relevant.

I agree that the references to the Light/Life Force in the game imply that TMC is earlier in the timeline.

'ganonlord6000', on 19 Dec 2009 - 4:38 PM, said:

What do you think I was saying? ST implies that TMC happens some time before TWW trilogy (TWW, PH, and ST). Hence, it's before OOT. I think that some of us can now assume that Nintendo always wanted TMC to be first. There were only two places TMC could fit in the first place.

I thought you were supporting the notion that simply because ST references the FS series indirectly, the FS games are magically all in the CT, so that's my mistake. It seems to be what some people are thinking for whatever reason.

'Average Gamer', on 19 Dec 2009 - 11:12 PM, said:

'Raien', on 19 Dec 2009 - 5:50 PM, said:

Every Zelda game since Zelda II has made reference to Princess Zelda, if not the Royal Family in general, possessing magic powers. In ALttP, Zelda was one of the Sages whose Hylian magic had survived the decline of the race.

Technically, the maidens in ALttP didn't count as Sages, and the Hylians were still seen as a dead race.

I've seen some people here and on ZU saying that the Lokomo may have been the Picori. Why are they saying that? The Lokomo seem to consist of seven spirits, whereas the Picori, to my knowledge, are an actual race that can merely visit Hyrule every hundred years.

The Hylians being a dead race seems like such an abstract idea to me. If anything, it seems they evolved (devolved?) into humans over the course of the series, which kinda ties in with the idea that (at least in the AT) the mortals are moving away from reliance on their Goddesses. The Hylians may be a dead race, but it doesn't stop the maidens in ALttP from being their descendants. Whether or not Hylians are considered obsolete in a given game, their progeny and bloodline is still carried through for the most part.

As for the Lokomo being the Minish, just speculation that they may have just returned to help out in another form, I think. Actually, I don't think it's in regards to the Lokomo that I heard the possible Minish relations, but something else, I think.

Anyway, the Minish were a special case. Didn't it say they descended from the sky originally in the TMC backstory to give the Light Force and Picori Blade to the Hero of Men? I don't think they were just another Hyrulean race, but something a bit more divine in nature, unless I'm mistaken.

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 20 Dec 2009 - 01:39 AM, said:

We also don't know if the ToW is in the Sacred Realm or not,

Seeing as how the Triforce left after Daphnes was done with it, it was presumably returning to the Sacred Realm, which can be considered its home.

'Altum' said

and the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm in TP while still affecting its bearers

No offense, but TP makes it incredibly clear that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf do in fact possess the pieces of the Triforce, which is the "divine prank". TP features every sign of possessing one of the pieces.

'Altum' said

The Hylians being a dead race seems like such an abstract idea to me.

We are told numerous times in ALttP that the Hylians were an ancient race that has since died out due to the blood becoming too thin.

'Altum' said

The Hylians may be a dead race, but it doesn't stop the maidens in ALttP from being their descendants.

I never said that the maidens weren't descended from Hylians.

'Altum' said

Anyway, the Minish were a special case. Didn't it say they descended from the sky originally in the TMC backstory to give the Light Force and Picori Blade to the Hero of Men? I don't think they were just another Hyrulean race, but something a bit more divine in nature, unless I'm mistaken.

All I know about the Minish is that they're a tiny race of people who live in another realm that's only accessible every hundred years. I've never heard of anything stating that they're spirits.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

Seeing as how the Triforce left after Daphnes was done with it, it was presumably returning to the Sacred Realm, which can be considered its home.

Daphnes more or less wished for what was left of Hyrule to disappear, didn't he? We see the Triforce fly up to the sky and disappear, but that's it. It could have gone back to the Sacred Realm. Then again, his wish could have resulted in the removal of it and the Goddesses' influence in Hyrule. Considering Ganondorf, the Master Sword, and Hyrule itself were lost as a result of his wish, I wouldn't put it out of the question that the Triforce left as a result, too. I mean, it hasn't been back in any tangible form in the AT since TWW.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

No offense, but TP makes it incredibly clear that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf do in fact possess the pieces of the Triforce, which is the "divine prank". TP features every sign of possessing one of the pieces.

It depends. There are games where the Triforces are physical objects that are carried in addition to granting the bearers their "powers." Ganondorf made a wish on the Triforce in ALttP but kept it in a tangible, separate form. Link carried around pieces of the Triforce in at least three games, only two of which he was a bearer. I don't know if it's absolutely necessary for the Triforce to physically be with or within someone in order for it to be channeling its power to its respective bearer.

I agree that it's very obvious that they're bearers in TP.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

We are told numerous times in ALttP that the Hylians were an ancient race that has since died out due to the blood becoming too thin.

Yes. And at the same time, their blood continues, which is my point. I wasn't saying you were wrong, or even arguing anything. I just disagree with the phrasing in the series, because it seems to imply they wiped out due to competition or something. Their race evolved over time to become something different, it seems. The humans in TWW are obviously not Hylians in the traditional sense, but over a few hundred years its what the Hylians had become. But it's not really relevant to the discussion.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

I never said that the maidens weren't descended from Hylians.

Didn't say you didn't.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

All I know about the Minish is that they're a tiny race of people who live in another realm that's only accessible every hundred years. I've never heard of anything stating that they're spirits.

Yes, they're a tiny race of people who live in a realm connected to Hyrule with a doorway of sorts that opens once every hundred years. It's also said in TMC that they descended from the sky originally, rather than just coming through that doorway. Whatever they're compared to in ST by people, I read that those figures return to the sky at the end and mention coming back. And there are hints that they may have been there or will return in another form, or something. That's why some people are thinking they may be related, I think. Again, I haven't had a chance to play it yet.

[Average Gamer]

[quote name='Altum' date='19 December 2009 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1261282363' post='497831']Daphnes more or less wished for what was left of Hyrule to disappear, didn't he? We see the Triforce fly up to the sky and disappear, but that's it. It could have gone back to the Sacred Realm. Then again, his wish could have resulted in the removal of it and the Goddesses' influence in Hyrule. Considering Ganondorf, the Master Sword, and Hyrule itself were lost as a result of his wish, I wouldn't put it out of the question that the Triforce left as a result, too. I mean, it hasn't been back in any tangible form in the AT since TWW.[/quote]

Possibly, though whether or not the Triforce would remove or destroy itself because of Daphnes' wish is uncertain. While it may have left the world entirely for the sake of an unbound future, it may have just returned to the Sacred Realm, made inaccessible due to Daphnes' wish, so that it could balance the world's metaphysical Reasons forever without anyone ever relearning of or obtaining it.

[quote name='ALtum']It depends. There are games where the Triforces are physical objects that are carried in addition to granting the bearers their "powers."[/quote]

Yet, if TWW is any indication, a Triforce piece dwelling within someone, most notably represented by a mark on their hand, is different and more significant.

[quote name='Altum']Ganondorf made a wish on the Triforce in ALttP but kept it in a tangible, separate form.[/quote]

Yet Ganon was the master of the entire Triforce in that specific instance, and we have no reason to believe that he had any sort of Triforce mark on his body in ALttP.

[quote name='Altum']I don't know if it's absolutely necessary for the Triforce to physically be with or within someone in order for it to be channeling its power to its respective bearer.[/quote]

TP features the traditional Triforce crests with one piece being brighter than the other two, heavily suggesting if not outright stating that the characters truly bear the pieces of the Triforce. Also, as I mentioned above, a Triforce piece being in someone seems to be of greater importance than someone simply carrying a piece of the Triforce.

[quote name='Altum]Yes. And at the same time, their blood continues, which is my point. I wasn't saying you were wrong, or even arguing anything. I just disagree with the phrasing in the series, because it seems to imply they wiped out due to competition or something.[/quote]

Regardless though, there are no more Hylians by the time of ALttP.

[quote name='Altum']Yes, they're a tiny race of people who live in a realm connected to Hyrule with a doorway of sorts that opens once every hundred years. It's also said in TMC that they descended from the sky originally, rather than just coming through that doorway.[/quote]

Yet if the game itself shows that the worlds can only be accessed through the portal, couldn't the "came from the sky" thing just be something stylized for the myth? What about the fact that the Minish are an entire race whereas the Lokomo appear to just be seven spirits? Are the Minish even spirits?

[quote name='Altum']Whatever they're compared to in ST by people, I read that those figures return to the sky at the end and mention coming back.[/quote]

From what I've heard, the Lokomo actually mention that they don't think they'll be needed in the mortal world anymore, which is why they all leave.

[Raien]

'Average Gamer', on 19 Dec 2009 - 11:12 PM, said:

Technically, the maidens in ALttP didn't count as Sages, and the Hylians were still seen as a dead race.

Fine, I'll restate my point.

Every Zelda game since Zelda II has made reference to Princess Zelda, if not the Royal Family in general, possessing magic powers. In ALttP, Zelda was one of the Maidens whose Hylian magic had survived the decline of the race.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

Possibly, though whether or not the Triforce would remove or destroy itself because of Daphnes' wish is uncertain. While it may have left the world entirely for the sake of an unbound future, it may have just returned to the Sacred Realm, made inaccessible due to Daphnes' wish, so that it could balance the world's metaphysical Reasons forever without anyone ever relearning of or obtaining it.

It's also uncertain what happened to the Triforce, which is my point: there are different possibilities. It may have went to the Sacred Realm. It may not have. The only thing we know for certain is that the games that are guaranteed to be in the AT have lacked the Triforce in any integral way.

Not that this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

Yet, if TWW is any indication, a Triforce piece dwelling within someone, most notably represented by a mark on their hand, is different and more significant.

In AoL, Link's hand was glowing without any Triforce pieces dwelling within him. The Triforce is inconsistent between games.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

TP features the traditional Triforce crests with one piece being brighter than the other two, heavily suggesting if not outright stating that the characters truly bear the pieces of the Triforce. Also, as I mentioned above, a Triforce piece being in someone seems to be of greater importance than someone simply carrying a piece of the Triforce.

In games where a bearer of the Triforce is killed, they have dropped the physical piece afterwards. LoZ is an example; when Ganon dies, he leaves behind the Triforce of Power he was in possession of. This doesn't happen in TP when he dies, which could mean they never physically had the Triforce in TP. Once again, the Triforce's characteristics are inconsistent.

The only other game where a Triforce bearer definitely died was in TWW. Ganon was killed, but he didn't have the Triforce within him at that point. However, it at least was present physically, as were the other pieces.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

Yet if the game itself shows that the worlds can only be accessed through the portal, couldn't the "came from the sky" thing just be something stylized for the myth? What about the fact that the Minish are an entire race whereas the Lokomo appear to just be seven spirits? Are the Minish even spirits?

Would be speculation that it was stylized, which I'm not keen on doing when theorizing. The Minish may have originally came from the sky and then opened a portal between their realm and Hyrule after the Hero of Men sealed away the evil.

And I'm not backing up the notion that they're different incarnations of the same beings. Just staying why people consider it plausible.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

From what I've heard, the Lokomo actually mention that they don't think they'll be needed in the mortal world anymore, which is why they all leave.

Can't comment, haven't played the game yet.

[Nerushi]

'Altum', on 20 Dec 2009 - 5:57 PM, said:

In games where a bearer of the Triforce is killed, they have dropped the physical piece afterwards. LoZ is an example; when Ganon dies, he leaves behind the Triforce of Power he was in possession of. This doesn't happen in TP when he dies, which could mean they never physically had the Triforce in TP. Once again, the Triforce's characteristics are inconsistent.

Wow. I am sort of suprised someone else actually had the exact same idea as I did a while ago. I remember I had quite a debate with Average Gamer about just whether or not the Triforce in TP is a physical possession or more of a spiritual possession. Of course, right now I am not sure what to think of it. But it certainly does explain a thing or two if ALTTP where to occur after TP... And with the way things went on the CT when Link returned from the future in OoT, and considering Ganondorf execution in TP, there is nothing absolute on this matter.

Edited by Nerushi, 20 December 2009 - 02:23 PM.

[Altum]

'Nerushi', on 20 Dec 2009 - 7:22 PM, said:

Wow. I am sort of suprised someone else actually had the exact same idea as I did a while ago. I remember I had quite a debate with Average Gamer about just whether or not the Triforce in TP is a physical possession or more of a spiritual possession. Of course, right now I am not sure what to think of it. But it certainly does explain a thing or two if ALTTP where to occur after TP... And with the way things went on the CT when Link returned from the future in OoT, and considering Ganondorf execution in TP, there is nothing absolute on this matter.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the official stance is, or even if there is one at the moment, but my thoughts are that the events in the AT had a sort of ripple effect across timelines. The "divine prank" could be that since Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power in the AT, the Triforce in the CT chose him as the bearer of power without it ever being touched or split, and the same would go for Zelda and Link's pieces. The Triforce is never even referenced by name in TP, which is odd, especially if everyone is literally containing it within them. Instead, we just see hints of its influence. I agree that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are very obviously the bearers of the Triforce and its powers. I don't know if they actually had the pieces or not. Could go either way, really, because we don't know the nature of the Triforce or its "rules."

As a side note, I would believe that the Sages would have recognized if the Triforce of Power was residing within Ganondorf during his execution. They make it seem like he randomly was bestowed its power in the execution scene itself.

But I can't say one way or another. It just seems odd that in every game where Ganondorf has actually died when he was in possession of the Triforce (or at least a piece of it), we see it physically afterwards. This happens in LoZ, ALttP, and TWW, the exception being TP.

[Wolflink001]

I don't think that Spirit Tracks connects to the Four Swords series at all. Spirit Tracks is just a Zelda game 100 years after Phantom Hourglass involving a train instead of a boat. Case closed. (For me...)

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 20 Dec 2009 - 5:57 PM, said:

It's also uncertain what happened to the Triforce, which is my point: there are different possibilities.

Yet the idea of the Triforce leaving the world entirely is more of a stretch than it merely returning to what could be considered its home.

'Altum' said

In AoL, Link's hand was glowing without any Triforce pieces dwelling within him.

Yet in that instance the mark was constantly on his hand and no crest was brighter than another. In fact, in AoL Link's mark wasn't even really due to the Triforce; it was there because of the scroll writer's spell.

'Altum' said

In games where a bearer of the Triforce is killed, they have dropped the physical piece afterwards. LoZ is an example; when Ganon dies, he leaves behind the Triforce of Power he was in possession of.

Yet Ganon was literally carrying the Triforce of Power around in LoZ, similar to how Link literally carried the Triforce of Courage around for a time in TWW.

'Altum' said

Once again, the Triforce's characteristics are inconsistent.

Personally, I think that TP was very consistent with the Triforce's characteristics. Nintendo just didn't have any characters say "Triforce" because they gave the fans the benefit of the doubt.

'Altum' said

The only other game where a Triforce bearer definitely died was in TWW. Ganon was killed, but he didn't have the Triforce within him at that point. However, it at least was present physically, as were the other pieces.

Yet Ganondorf had to literally call upon the Triforce pieces to make them appear, whereas Link and Zelda just stood still in TP while Ganondorf died.

'Altum' said

Would be speculation that it was stylized, which I'm not keen on doing when theorizing. The Minish may have originally came from the sky and then opened a portal between their realm and Hyrule after the Hero of Men sealed away the evil.

Isn't that technically speculation?

Why would the Minish open a very circumstantial portal between their realm and Hyrule if they could apparently go between the two already via the heavens?

'Altum' said

And I'm not backing up the notion that they're different incarnations of the same beings. Just staying why people consider it plausible.

Alright.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yet the idea of the Triforce leaving the world entirely is more of a stretch than it merely returning to what could be considered its home.

I'm not saying it did leave the world for a fact. I'm saying it could have. I never said it didn't go back to the Sacred Realm. I said you have to be open to other possibilities, considering there are others that are just as probable.

Also, why do you think it went to the Sacred Realm? A hunch? It's possible, but the Triforce as a whole didn't just up and disappear intact. It actually split at the end, going in three different directions. If anything, if it didn't just disappear from Hyrule, I'd say it actually was scattered across it instead.

The Triforce really doesn't matter in this discussion though. This is supposed to be about ST.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yet in that instance the mark was constantly on his hand and no crest was brighter than another. In fact, in AoL Link's mark wasn't even really due to the Triforce; it was there because of the scroll writer's spell.

I don't remember that. I thought it just appeared when he turned 16.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yet Ganon was literally carrying the Triforce of Power around in LoZ, similar to how Link literally carried the Triforce of Courage around for a time in TWW.

I get what you're saying, and again I'm not saying that it's not within them. I'm just saying that since we know the Triforce must be touched to be split (which didn't happen in the CT prior to TP as far as we know), and that it's probably still residing intact in the Sacred Realm in the CT after TP (if you're of the belief that the next appearance of the Triforce in that timeline is ALttP), then it's very possible that it wasn't physically present, especially considering how TP already has the Triforce misbehaving anyhow (bestowing power on Ganondorf as the divine prank). I'm not saying you're wrong, just throwing up another possibility. There's nothing definitive one way or another.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Personally, I think that TP was very consistent with the Triforce's characteristics. Nintendo just didn't have any characters say "Triforce" because they gave the fans the benefit of the doubt.

The Triforce is not consistent in TP in regards to other games, especially ALttP.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yet Ganondorf had to literally call upon the Triforce pieces to make them appear, whereas Link and Zelda just stood still in TP while Ganondorf died.

Which doesn't change the fact we don't see it. You're saying the presence of the crests makes it mandatory that the Triforce physically split. I'm saying that it's possible that the Triforce didn't physically split, since that would contradict its established canon/lore. It would also require that it physically split in TP, then went back to the Sacred Realm once Ganon was dead and reunited. I think it's possible that it never split in the first place and bestowed its powers to its bearers as the "divine prank," perhaps a result of the split in the AT.

Again, not saying you're wrong, just saying there is also support to the contrary.

'Average Gamer', on 20 Dec 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

Isn't that technically speculation?

Why would the Minish open a very circumstantial portal between their realm and Hyrule if they could apparently go between the two already via the heavens?

It's not speculation. It's in the game. It's speculation to assume the already barebones backstory shouldn't be taken at face value. The game specifically says the Minish originally descended from the heavens and gave the Hero of Men the Light Force and the Picori Blade. Afterwards, it is revealed they have another doorway/link that opens every hundred years.

[Raien]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 12:05 AM, said:

It's not speculation. It's in the game. It's speculation to assume the already barebones backstory shouldn't be taken at face value. The game specifically says the Minish originally descended from the heavens and gave the Hero of Men the Light Force and the Picori Blade. Afterwards, it is revealed they have another doorway/link that opens every hundred years.

Two reasons why I'm skeptical of this argument:

1) Important plot points like this normally have some degree of explanation in the story, yet there is absolutely no reference by the Minish or anyone else to a sky gateway. The Minish only refer to the castle gateway.

2) The fact that Vaati (and Ezlo) only entered Hyrule on the day that the castle gateway opens implies that they were only able to enter Hyrule through the castle gateway. We could call it a coincidence, but one day every one hundred years is a fucking big coincidence.

I don't normally go for the "It's just a myth" explanation, but in this context, the "sky" reference sounds very much like an expression of what the Hylians believed happened during the fight against the demons, not what actually happened.

Edited by Raien, 20 December 2009 - 09:32 PM.

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 12:05 AM, said:

I'm not saying it did leave the world for a fact. I'm saying it could have. I never said it didn't go back to the Sacred Realm. I said you have to be open to other possibilities, considering there are others that are just as probable.

Yes, but it's more likely that it didn't leave the world entirely. That's just what I'm trying to point out.

'Altum' said

Also, why do you think it went to the Sacred Realm? A hunch?

It's arguably the natural resting place, or home, of the Triforce.

'Altum' said

It's possible, but the Triforce as a whole didn't just up and disappear intact. It actually split at the end, going in three different directions.

The Triforce floated around as three separate pieces in ALttP, yet it still spoke as though it were one entity. The fact that it split up when it departed from Ganon's Tower doesn't mean much. The Triforce also floated around as three separate pieces in OoX.

'Altum' said

I don't remember that. I thought it just appeared when he turned 16.

It did appear when he was sixteen, but it only appeared due to the scroll writer's spell, and the mark had an even glow.

'Altum' said

I'm just saying that since we know the Triforce must be touched to be split (which didn't happen in the CT prior to TP as far as we know),

Yet that's where the "divine prank" comes in. With what we see and hear in OoT's ending and TP, it appears that the Triforce has split on the CT without being touched.

'Altum' said

I'm not saying you're wrong, just throwing up another possibility.

I know, but I find it far more likely that the Triforce just split on the CT due to timeline-hopping shenanigans than the Triforce suddenly having a new power that completely replicates the effects of bearing a Triforce piece without someone actually bearing a Triforce piece.

'Altum' said

The Triforce is not consistent in TP in regards to other games, especially ALttP.

The Triforce in TP is consistent with OoT and TWW.

'Altum' said

Which doesn't change the fact we don't see it. You're saying the presence of the crests makes it mandatory that the Triforce physically split. I'm saying that it's possible that the Triforce didn't physically split, since that would contradict its established canon/lore.

I find it more contradictory and problematic for the Triforce to suddenly replicate the effects of bearing a piece than it is for timeline-hopping shenanigans to merely split the Triforce on the CT.

As for the stuff regarding the Minish, I agree with Raien.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

Yes, but it's more likely that it didn't leave the world entirely. That's just what I'm trying to point out.

It's arguably the natural resting place, or home, of the Triforce.

I wouldn't say it's more likely, but just a possibility. There are at least three instances where we see the Triforce without a bearer and contained within in Hyrule. I agree that the Sacred Realm is sort of its "home", but I don't know why it would just take off and fly off towards the Sacred Realm this one time, because it never did it before.

It's possible it went to the Sacred Realm. It's possible it scattered across Hyrule. It's possible it vanished. Either of these are possible

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

The Triforce floated around as three separate pieces in ALttP, yet it still spoke as though it were one entity. The fact that it split up when it departed from Ganon's Tower doesn't mean much.

It floated as three pieces right next to each other, which is consistent with the Triforce in other games for the most part. I wouldn't write off it splitting in different directions like that as nothing. If you want to, that's fine.

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

It did appear when he was sixteen, but it only appeared due to the scroll writer's spell, and the mark had an even glow.

I know it had an even glow. I thought it appeared on its own though and then he went to Impa to ask about it. I don't remember a scroll writer. I read the manual online again and it didn't mention one. Granted, I haven't played that game in a very long time, so it might have been a detail in the game I'm forgetting.

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

Yet that's where the "divine prank" comes in. With what we see and hear in OoT's ending and TP, it appears that the Triforce has split on the CT without being touched.

I know, but I find it far more likely that the Triforce just split on the CT due to timeline-hopping shenanigans than the Triforce suddenly having a new power that completely replicates the effects of bearing a Triforce piece without someone actually bearing a Triforce piece.

I understand the reasoning, and it's largely what I think. I just am not cementing my view one way or another because there are other possibilities that could be defended equally.

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

The Triforce in TP is consistent with OoT and TWW.

Consistent in the fact that it has bearers, maybe, but OoT followed the Triforce's rules in ALttP. There's no explanation as to the why or what of the divine prank in TP, because it contradicts earlier games. We both seem to agree it was triggered by events in the AT.

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

I find it more contradictory and problematic for the Triforce to suddenly replicate the effects of bearing a piece than it is for timeline-hopping shenanigans to merely split the Triforce on the CT.

Both theories are contradictory and problematic. On one hand, we have the Triforce developing the ability to split of its own volition when it is stated very obviously that it only splits when touched. On the other hand, we have it channeling it's power to those same bearers without having to split. They both break canon, roughly to the same degree.

'Average Gamer', on 21 Dec 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

Two reasons why I'm skeptical of this argument:

1) Important plot points like this normally have some degree of explanation in the story, yet there is absolutely no reference by the Minish or anyone else to a sky gateway. The Minish only refer to the castle gateway.

2) The fact that Vaati (and Ezlo) only entered Hyrule on the day that the castle gateway opens implies that they were only able to enter Hyrule through the castle gateway. We could call it a coincidence, but one day every one hundred years is a fucking big coincidence.

I don't normally go for the "It's just a myth" explanation, but in this context, the "sky" reference sounds very much like an expression of what the Hylians believed happened during the fight against the demons, not what actually happened.

Believe it or don't, it's in the game.

Also, is it said why the door opens every hundred years? I was under the impression that the Minish as a whole could decide to open it more frequently if they wanted to, but don't for whatever reason. Like, I don't think the door/portal/whatever is circumstantial as much as the limits the Minish placed on it.

[Raien]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 2:55 PM, said:

Believe it or don't, it's in the game.

No, it isn't. A reference to sky is in the game, but an actual sky gateway is not.

Quote

Also, is it said why the door opens every hundred years? I was under the impression that the Minish as a whole could decide to open it more frequently if they wanted to, but don't for whatever reason. Like, I don't think the door/portal/whatever is circumstantial as much as the limits the Minish placed on it.

The game's ending establishes that the Minish don't have control over the opening or closing of the castle gateway, as Ezlo is forced to rush through before it closes. As for the 100 year rule, it's a typical cliche of fantasy games (not just Zelda) that Nintendo simply didn't bother to explain.

[Altum]

'Raien', on 21 Dec 2009 - 4:05 PM, said:

No, it isn't. A reference to sky is in the game, but an actual sky gateway is not.

Hence, it's in the game. The backstory states it directly. If we're to believe that a backstory isn't precise or canon at face value, then ALttP's backstory can no longer discredit OoT as the IW, the relevance of the missing hat in the TMC backstory is irrelevant, the sleeping Zelda's legend in AoL isn't canon, the TWW backstory doesn't back a split timeline, etc., etc. The fact is that every backstory has been taken at face value and considered canonical. If we're going to pick and choose which backstories (or parts of them) are canonical and which aren't, we're going to make these discussions moot anyway. I'm not going to negate text written by Nintendo on a whim.

'Raien', on 21 Dec 2009 - 4:05 PM, said:

The game's ending establishes that the Minish don't have control over the opening or closing of the castle gateway, as Ezlo is forced to rush through before it closes.

True, but that's a single Minish as opposed to all of them, which is what I asked about (read: "Minish as a whole"). The doorway seemed to me to be the only way to access the Minish realm from Hyrule though, not necessarily the other way around. The Minish seemed to be involved in Hyrule on a daily basis in the game. I might have to replay it.

Edited by Altum, 21 December 2009 - 12:30 PM.

[Raien]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 5:29 PM, said:

Hence, it's in the game. The backstory states it directly. If we're to believe that a backstory isn't precise or canon at face value, then ALttP's backstory can no longer discredit OoT as the IW, the relevance of the missing hat in the TMC backstory is irrelevant, the sleeping Zelda's legend in AoL isn't canon, the TWW backstory doesn't back a split timeline, etc., etc. The fact is that every backstory has been taken at face value and considered canonical. If we're going to pick and choose which backstories (or parts of them) are canonical and which aren't, we're going to make these discussions moot anyway. I'm not going to negate text written by Nintendo on a whim.

Is context really that difficult to grasp? When legends and origin stories are corroborated by later events in the game, it becomes apparent that the legends were true. But when the legends are contradicted by later events, such as the Minish establishing the castle gateway as the one and only portal, it becomes apparent that the legends weren't entirely true.

We have every reason to believe ALttP's backstory is true because the Sages corroborate the events and explain how it leads into the events of the game itself. We have no reason to believe the Minish came from the sky because they make no reference to a sky gateway and show no ability to pass between realms at will.

'Raien', on 21 Dec 2009 - 4:05 PM, said:

True, but that's a single Minish as opposed to all of them, which is what I asked about (read: "Minish as a whole"). The doorway seemed to me to be the only way to access the Minish realm from Hyrule though, not necessarily the other way around. The Minish seemed to be involved in Hyrule on a daily basis in the game. I might have to replay it.

One of the Forest Minish says that they are descended from Minish who came through the castle gateway during one of the previous openings. It stands to reason that the Town Minish have the same origin.

Edited by Raien, 21 December 2009 - 02:20 PM.

[Altum]

'Raien', on 21 Dec 2009 - 7:17 PM, said:

Is context really that difficult to grasp? When legends and origin stories are corroborated by later events in the game, it becomes apparent that the legends were true. But when the legends are contradicted by later events, such as the Minish establishing the castle gateway as the one and only portal, it becomes apparent that the legends weren't entirely true.

We have every reason to believe ALttP's backstory is true because the Sages corroborate the events and explain how it leads into the events of the game itself. We have no reason to believe the Minish came from the sky because they make no reference to a sky gateway and show no ability to pass between realms at will.

It's not a matter of context. It's a matter of picking and choosing canon, because it doesn't contradict anything about the Minish. The realm they dwell in now only has one known connection to Hyrule, which isn't in the sky. The fact they first appeared from the sky doesn't really contradict that. Perhaps the Minish's current home is not where they came from originally, or if it is, perhaps the way was lost or closed. I still don't think there's a reason to say it couldn't have happened or isn't true.

'Raien', on 21 Dec 2009 - 4:05 PM, said:

One of the Forest Minish says that they are descended from Minish who came through the castle gateway during one of the previous openings. It stands to reason that the Town Minish have the same origin.

Didn't remember that. Makes sense.

[Pinecove]

Quote

I've seen some people here and on ZU saying that the Lokomo may have been the Picori. Why are they saying that?

At the end of ST the Lokomo say they'll re-incarnate in a different form some day and fly into the sky.
In the beginning of TMC the Piccori descend from the sky and give theHoM a gift.

I'm really unsure of the placement of the FSS right now.

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 2:55 PM, said:

I wouldn't say it's more likely, but just a possibility. There are at least three instances where we see the Triforce without a bearer and contained within in Hyrule. I agree that the Sacred Realm is sort of its "home", but I don't know why it would just take off and fly off towards the Sacred Realm this one time, because it never did it before.

When the pieces stayed in Hyrule without a master, they were either specifically placed there by their former master or they were shattered by a strange occurrence (timeline-hopping). As for why the Triforce wouldn't stay in Hyrule in TWW's ending, Daphnes had claimed the entire thing and was done with it. It had no reason to stick around and Daphnes was going to die soon, meaning that the Triforce would be without an owner shortly.

'Altum' said

It's possible it went to the Sacred Realm. It's possible it scattered across Hyrule. It's possible it vanished. Either of these are possible

Technically there wouldn't have been a Hyrule left at that point. Also, while they might be possible, it's most likely that the Triforce returned to its origin point rather than leaving the world entirely. Unless the Sacred Realm was also destroyed by Daphnes' wish, I don't see why the Triforce would leave the world if it can just return to its now-inaccessible home.

'Altum' said

It floated as three pieces right next to each other, which is consistent with the Triforce in other games for the most part. I wouldn't write off it splitting in different directions like that as nothing.

It split up in the credits of ALttP too, but nobody's claiming that it actually separated there. It would appear that the Triforce pieces only come together on certain occasions, such as when someone tries to make a wish. Heck, in AoL the Triforce pieces even awakened the sleeping Zelda by splitting up. They do not have to be together to function as one entity.

'Altum' said

I know it had an even glow. I thought it appeared on its own though and then he went to Impa to ask about it. I don't remember a scroll writer. I read the manual online again and it didn't mention one. Granted, I haven't played that game in a very long time, so it might have been a detail in the game I'm forgetting.

In the scroll, the writer mentions that he has placed a spell over the land that will identify the person who is worthy of obtaining the entire Triforce.

'Scroll Writer (Zelda Legends Japanese Translation)' said

Thus, I cast a magical spell on all of Hyrule.

A crest will appear on a person with those qualities who has been raised correctly, picked up various experiences, and is of a certain age.

'Altum' said

I understand the reasoning, and it's largely what I think. I just am not cementing my view one way or another because there are other possibilities that could be defended equally.

Alright, but I really don't see how Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf couldn't have had the Triforce pieces in TP.

'Altum' said

Consistent in the fact that it has bearers, maybe,

More than that. The characters in TP have Triforce marks on their hands that feature one crest glowing brighter than the others, said marks can seemingly be called upon at will instead of constantly showing, the marks resonate in the presence of each other, and the characters are gifted with incredible powers, most notably Ganondorf's seeming immortality.

'Altum' said

but OoT followed the Triforce's rules in ALttP.

The only ALttP-exclusive rule that OoT followed was "touch the Triforce for a wish".

'Altum' said

There's no explanation as to the why or what of the divine prank in TP, because it contradicts earlier games.

Yes, but seeing as how OoT's ending and TP show us all of the signs of possessing a piece of the Triforce, it's most reasonable for the "divine prank" to just be a splitting of the Triforce.

'Altum' said

Both theories are contradictory and problematic. On one hand, we have the Triforce developing the ability to split of its own volition when it is stated very obviously that it only splits when touched. On the other hand, we have it channeling it's power to those same bearers without having to split. They both break canon, roughly to the same degree.

Actually, the main idea for the "divine prank" split is that when Link was sent across the timelines, the ToC was stripped from him so that there wouldn't be a second presence (CT) and total absence (AT) of the ToC. However, because Link was the rightful, chosen bearer of the ToC when he was sent across the timelines, the CT ToC "filled the gap" left by the AT ToC at the moment he lost the AT ToC. This resulted in an accidental Triforce split that nobody was aware of. The Triforce didn't spontaneously choose to split itself.

Regarding the Minish stuff, I again agree with Raien. The game itself places importance on the castle gateway and doesn't mention a gateway in the heavens at all. It's also a stretch to say that the Minish chose to move into a neighboring dimension instead of returning to the heavens.

'Destiny', on 21 Dec 2009 - 11:48 PM, said:

At the end of ST the Lokomo say they'll re-incarnate in a different form some day and fly into the sky.
In the beginning of TMC the Piccori descend from the sky and give theHoM a gift.

The Lokomo actually say that they don't think they'll be needed anymore, meaning that they presumably won't return to the world.

Edited by Average Gamer, 21 December 2009 - 07:21 PM.

[Raien]

'Altum', on 21 Dec 2009 - 11:13 PM, said:

It's not a matter of context. It's a matter of picking and choosing canon, because it doesn't contradict anything about the Minish. The realm they dwell in now only has one known connection to Hyrule, which isn't in the sky. The fact they first appeared from the sky doesn't really contradict that. Perhaps the Minish's current home is not where they came from originally, or if it is, perhaps the way was lost or closed. I still don't think there's a reason to say it couldn't have happened or isn't true.

It's not a matter of picking and choosing canon, because I accept the quote exists in the canon. What I don't accept is that the statement is true, so much as an expression of a Hylian's (wrong) belief, and that's a matter of context.

As for the contradiction, it's not so much an explicit contradiction of the events, but a contradiction of the general mythology. Given that the Minish provide a detailed explanation of their relationship with the Hylians, from the nature of the castle gateway to their immigration to Hyrule, the sky reference appears to come the fuck out of nowhere, making no sense with regard to what else is established, and it's never mentioned again by the characters. If you've ever seen Nostalgia Critic, you may recognise this as a "big lipped alligator moment". It just makes no sense.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

When the pieces stayed in Hyrule without a master, they were either specifically placed there by their former master or they were shattered by a strange occurrence (timeline-hopping). As for why the Triforce wouldn't stay in Hyrule in TWW's ending, Daphnes had claimed the entire thing and was done with it. It had no reason to stick around and Daphnes was going to die soon, meaning that the Triforce would be without an owner shortly.

The Triforce has never just went back to the Sacred Realm because it didn't have an owner. In LoZ and AoL, it's held in various places. The ToC is broken and hidden in TWW. If anything, the physical movement of Triforce has largely been by mortal hands, the exception being when the Triforce is split by someone of unbalanced quantities touching it.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

Technically there wouldn't have been a Hyrule left at that point. Also, while they might be possible, it's most likely that the Triforce returned to its origin point rather than leaving the world entirely. Unless the Sacred Realm was also destroyed by Daphnes' wish, I don't see why the Triforce would leave the world if it can just return to its now-inaccessible home.

Hyrule the land and Hyrule the realm are two different things.

And personally I think it would be fine if the Triforce went back to the Sacred Realm. We don't know for sure if it did that. We see it shoot to the sky and shatter in completely different directions. Either way, it doesn't matter because the AT makes no use of it anymore. I'm just saying no one knows what happened to it.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

It split up in the credits of ALttP too, but nobody's claiming that it actually separated there. It would appear that the Triforce pieces only come together on certain occasions, such as when someone tries to make a wish. Heck, in AoL the Triforce pieces even awakened the sleeping Zelda by splitting up. They do not have to be together to function as one entity.

Don't know what you're getting at there. None of that has anything to do with what I said.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

In the scroll, the writer mentions that he has placed a spell over the land that will identify the person who is worthy of obtaining the entire Triforce.

Gotcha.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

More than that. The characters in TP have Triforce marks on their hands that feature one crest glowing brighter than the others, said marks can seemingly be called upon at will instead of constantly showing, the marks resonate in the presence of each other, and the characters are gifted with incredible powers, most notably Ganondorf's seeming immortality.

I don't think the pieces are ever called upon at will.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

The only ALttP-exclusive rule that OoT followed was "touch the Triforce for a wish".

I was thinking ALttP dictated that someone with an unbalanced heart that touched the Triforce would make it split. Perhaps that was just OoT and AoL's backstory (didn't the prince touch it and force it to split?).

What we're discussing I believe is the nature of the divine prank. Are you of the belief that the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm entirely after TP?

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

Yes, but seeing as how OoT's ending and TP show us all of the signs of possessing a piece of the Triforce, it's most reasonable for the "divine prank" to just be a splitting of the Triforce.

It is definitely reasonable. I support the idea. I also think it would be odd for the Triforce to randomly end up back in the Sacred Realm post-TP. I'm curious to what extent the rules were broken with the prank.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

Actually, the main idea for the "divine prank" split is that when Link was sent across the timelines, the ToC was stripped from him so that there wouldn't be a second presence (CT) and total absence (AT) of the ToC. However, because Link was the rightful, chosen bearer of the ToC when he was sent across the timelines, the CT ToC "filled the gap" left by the AT ToC at the moment he lost the AT ToC. This resulted in an accidental Triforce split that nobody was aware of. The Triforce didn't spontaneously choose to split itself.

Actually, the Hero of Time doesn't have a crest at all when he is in the CT post-OoT. It's gone in MM, I believe. The split seems to have happened when Ganon was being executed, which is entirely random. He was dying, then the crest appeared, and it was very much new information to everyone at that point.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

Regarding the Minish stuff, I again agree with Raien. The game itself places importance on the castle gateway and doesn't mention a gateway in the heavens at all. It's also a stretch to say that the Minish chose to move into a neighboring dimension instead of returning to the heavens.

That's fine. I've never seen an instance where what was said in a backstory within this series ended up being an embellishment. I don't think they'd write it at all if it wasn't to be believed. As I said, it doesn't contradict anything. I look at it as an origin for the Minish.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 12:17 AM, said:

The Lokomo actually say that they don't think they'll be needed anymore, meaning that they presumably won't return to the world.

But do they say they could reincarnate in a different form? I've read this in multiple places but haven't played the game yet, so... yeah. I think that's the main reasoning some people have to think the Minish may be a past incarnation.

'Raien', on 22 Dec 2009 - 01:10 AM, said:

It's not a matter of picking and choosing canon, because I accept the quote exists in the canon. What I don't accept is that the statement is true, so much as an expression of a Hylian's (wrong) belief, and that's a matter of context.

Except that it doesn't contradict anything. And that I don't remember anything in the series that was said and not generally true canonically, even in a backstory.

'Raien', on 22 Dec 2009 - 01:10 AM, said:

As for the contradiction, it's not so much an explicit contradiction of the events, but a contradiction of the general mythology. Given that the Minish provide a detailed explanation of their relationship with the Hylians, from the nature of the castle gateway to their immigration to Hyrule, the sky reference appears to come the fuck out of nowhere, making no sense with regard to what else is established, and it's never mentioned again by the characters. If you've ever seen Nostalgia Critic, you may recognise this as a "big lipped alligator moment". It just makes no sense.

It's not a contradiction of the general mythology. The Minish's mythology starts in the narration at the beginning of the game, which says they first came from the sky, and that was ages before. Then, in the game's present-day, there's only one known doorway to their realm. Shit of significant nature is lost in Hyrule all the time, and this doesn't damage anything and leaves nothing contradicted at all.

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 22 Dec 2009 - 03:12 AM, said:

The Triforce has never just went back to the Sacred Realm because it didn't have an owner. In LoZ and AoL, it's held in various places.

Yet the pieces were put in those places by their former owners, as I said.

'Altum' said

The ToC is broken and hidden in TWW.

Yet, judging from the quotes in the Japanese version of TWW, the ToC was shattered as a direct result of Link hopping timelines, and it wasn't hidden so much as it flew off randomly.

'Altum' said

Hyrule the land and Hyrule the realm are two different things.

Hyrule the realm (as in region) apparently didn't survive either, and if by realm you mean the world, there's no reason for the pieces to scatter to different parts of the world either.

'Altum' said

Don't know what you're getting at there. None of that has anything to do with what I said.

What I'm saying is that the Triforce flying away as separate pieces doesn't appear to mean anything.

'Altum' said

I don't think the pieces are ever called upon at will.

Ganondorf blatantly calls upon the ToP for the sole sake of showing it off when he's speaking to Link and Midna atop Hyrule Castle in TP.

'Altum' said

I was thinking ALttP dictated that someone with an unbalanced heart that touched the Triforce would make it split. Perhaps that was just OoT and AoL's backstory (didn't the prince touch it and force it to split?).

No, in AoL's backstory the Great King (at least, it was most likely him) split the Triforce and hid the ToC in the Great Palace. The Prince only inherited the ToP and ToW.

As for the "unbalanced heart" thing, that was invented in OoT. In ALttP the Triforce could be claimed by anyone.

'Altum' said

What we're discussing I believe is the nature of the divine prank. Are you of the belief that the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm entirely after TP?

Not immediately after TP, but eventually. I believe that, seeing as how nobody tried to claim the ToP when it left Ganondorf in TP, the ToP returned to the Sacred Realm. As for the ToW, it may have been lost as a result of Zelda giving her life force to Midna/the life force going back to Zelda/etc., and as for the ToC, all that's required is Link (who already seems to be a bit of a loner) or one of his descendants simply not having kids.

'Altum' said

Actually, the Hero of Time doesn't have a crest at all when he is in the CT post-OoT.

He does in the ending of OoT when he's in the proximity of Zelda. It had no reason to shine in MM, and Link presumably didn't know that he had it.

'Altum' said

He was dying, then the crest appeared, and it was very much new information to everyone at that point.

However, keep in mind that Link didn't know that he held the ToC in OoT until Sheik told him. WIth the odd nature of the "divine prank", Ganondorf may not have been aware of the ToP either. Like with Link and the ToC, the ToP only revealed itself when it had to save Ganondorf.

'Altum' said

But do they say they could reincarnate in a different form?

Yes, but Anjean says that they appear to be unneeded after ST, meaning that they won't return.

Regarding the Minish, I again agree with Raien. Nothing in the actual game remotely points toward a gateway in the heavens. The Minish appear to be entirely dependent on the castle gateway, and they don't imply that they came from the heavens either.

Edited by Average Gamer, 21 December 2009 - 11:53 PM.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yet the pieces were put in those places by their former owners, as I said.

Yeah, I'm just saying I don't know how that is explicitly relevant. I'm thinking the Triforce left due to Daphnes wish. Where it went, who cares. Sacred Realm or not, its irrelevant to the AT now.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yet, judging from the quotes in the Japanese version of TWW, the ToC was shattered as a direct result of Link hopping timelines, and it wasn't hidden so much as it flew off randomly.

Which is also very obvious from the American version. Never said anything against that.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Hyrule the realm (as in region) apparently didn't survive either, and if by realm you mean the world, there's no reason for the pieces to scatter to different parts of the world either.

I believe the realm to be the world, much like the Sacred Realm is its own dimension and Termina is its own. I don't see how there's "no reason" though. It scatters at the end of TWW, that's really all we know. It flew to the sky, then split.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

What I'm saying is that the Triforce flying away as separate pieces doesn't appear to mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything at all, mainly because the Triforce is irrelevant to the AT after TWW as far as we know.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Ganondorf blatantly calls upon the ToP for the sole sake of showing it off when he's speaking to Link and Midna atop Hyrule Castle in TP.

I vaguely remember it glowed when he was boasting, I suppose he could have controlled it there.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

No, in AoL's backstory the Great King (at least, it was most likely him) split the Triforce and hid the ToC in the Great Palace. The Prince only inherited the ToP and ToW.

As for the "unbalanced heart" thing, that was invented in OoT. In ALttP the Triforce could be claimed by anyone.

I remember the king hid the ToC, I thought the prince (or maybe the wizard) went after the Triforce and it split. Been way too long since I played that game.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Not immediately after TP, but eventually. I believe that, seeing as how nobody tried to claim the ToP when it left Ganondorf in TP, the ToP returned to the Sacred Realm. As for the ToW, it may have been lost as a result of Zelda giving her life force to Midna/the life force going back to Zelda/etc., and as for the ToC, all that's required is Link (who already seems to be a bit of a loner) or one of his descendants simply not having kids.

Why wouldn't the pieces just shatter like it did when Link left the AT? And since when is the Triforce passed down genetically?

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

However, keep in mind that Link didn't know that he held the ToC in OoT until Sheik told him. WIth the odd nature of the "divine prank", Ganondorf may not have been aware of the ToP either. Like with Link and the ToC, the ToP only revealed itself when it had to save Ganondorf.

The fact that Zelda knew Link had it, either due to her sensing it or the Sages sensing it, would imply that the Sages in TP's backstory would sense it in Ganondorf. It came to him randomly, it seems. Unless Sheik doesn't realize it until it glows at the end of OoT? Haven't beat that game in a while either.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yes, but Anjean says that they appear to be unneeded after ST, meaning that they won't return.

Them returning or not is irrelevant. A lot of people that support whatever they're supporting is that they both originated from the sky and watched over/helped the Hylians.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Regarding the Minish, I again agree with Raien. Nothing in the actual game remotely points toward a gateway in the heavens. The Minish appear to be entirely dependent on the castle gateway, and they don't imply that they came from the heavens either.

I never said that it was hinted in the game beyond the backstory. It's entirely possible that they originally came from the skies ages before TMC, and at the time of TMC the only doorway to their realm from Hyrule is at the castle. Odder things have happened in this series, for sure.

And I never said they came from the heavens (don't think there are heavens in Zelda). There are several races/beings residing in the skies throughout the series, or that go to them/come from them. The Oocca come to mind as another sky-bound race that helped watch over and develop Hyrule.

[Average Gamer]

Wrote in a rush. Will edit later.

'Altum', on 22 Dec 2009 - 05:15 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm just saying I don't know how that is explicitly relevant.

You were talking about the Triforce pieces staying in Hyrule, so I was just pointing out that the pieces never chose to stay in Hyrule. I agree that the Triforce is largely irrelevant on the AT now.

'Altum' said

I don't see how there's "no reason" though.

The Triforce has no reason for scattering its pieces across the world after TWW.

'Altum' said

Why wouldn't the pieces just shatter like it did when Link left the AT?

Because there wouldn't be anything strange like timeline-hopping going on.

'Altum' said

And since when is the Triforce passed down genetically?

What I meant was that a person could possibly give their Triforce piece to their descendants. The Great King left behind the ToP and the ToW for the Prince, and OoT Zelda's family kept the ToW long after OoT.

'Altum' said

The fact that Zelda knew Link had it, either due to her sensing it or the Sages sensing it, would imply that the Sages in TP's backstory would sense it in Ganondorf.

However, the ToC is noticed in Link long after Ganondorf's execution. The Sages may have sensed the ToC when it first activated in TP, and if I recall correctly, Zelda only learned of the ToC when the ToW reacted to it.

'Altum' said

Unless Sheik doesn't realize it until it glows at the end of OoT?

Sheik knew before the ToC ever revealed itself.

'Altum' said

I never said that it was hinted in the game beyond the backstory. It's entirely possible that they originally came from the skies ages before TMC, and at the time of TMC the only doorway to their realm from Hyrule is at the castle.

I don't see why though. If they came from the heavens, why didn't they just go back there?

Edited by Average Gamer, 22 December 2009 - 02:39 AM.

[Altum]

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

The Triforce has no reason for scattering its pieces across the world after TWW.

It also has no reason for randomly flying to the sky. The fact is it did, and then it shattered. Not that I believe it matters, and not that I'm opposed to it being in Sacred Realm, but at least visually it looks like it split within Hyrule itself. That's all we see, and all I'm willing to go on really.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

Because there wouldn't be anything strange like timeline-hopping going on.

Yeah I know why it split in the first place. It was more or less a question about what's so different if Link leaves the timeline or if Ganon, Link, or Zelda randomly dies. It still randomly loses its owner.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

What I meant was that a person could possibly give their Triforce piece to their descendants. The Great King left behind the ToP and the ToW for the Prince, and OoT Zelda's family kept the ToW long after OoT.

Okay, but then if it didn't get passed down, it would just go to the Sacred Realm? That's what you're thinking, right? See, I'm of the belief that it would just be left wherever it was, waiting to be reclaimed. And if someone not representing that pieces attribute touched it, then it would likely return to the Sacred Realm. Or maybe just not activate at least.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

However, the ToC is noticed in Link long after Ganondorf's execution. The Sages may have sensed the ToC when it first activated in TP, and if I recall correctly, Zelda only learned of the ToC when the ToW reacted to it.

Sheik knew before the ToC ever revealed itself.

Okay, I think you may have confused what I was saying. More or less what I'm getting at is if Sheik/Zelda and the Sages may have known that Link had the ToC without it revealing itself in OoT up to that point, couldn't it be assumed that the Sages in TP would also have sensed it within Ganondorf before it randomly activated? This is why I think the split may have happened there. If it's because Link timeline-hopped, that would make sense for the split, but to me it seems like the Triforce split some time afterward.

'Average Gamer', on 22 Dec 2009 - 07:35 AM, said:

I don't see why though. If they came from the heavens, why didn't they just go back there?

Who knows? The point is there is an unknown, large amount of time between when they came from the sky in the backstory and when they're residing in the Minish realm (which may or may not be the same location) with one known way in and out at Hyrule Castle.

We don't know anything about the origins of the Minish at all. You were the one asking if they were spirits, and while I don't believe that's the way to describe them, they may have some "heavenly" or "divine" origin in order to help protect the Hylians. This part being speculation right here, I think it could be possible that the Minish were created by the Goddesses, or their arrival was maybe orchestrated by them. I mean, they come from the sky and magically create a sword that repels evil, craft a force that is eerily similar to the Triforce and the light that is always used in other games against Ganon, they thrive on making Hyruleans happy, and they intervened when Hyrule was on the verge of destruction. They seem to be a guardian race of sorts, and it sounds in line with what the Goddesses normally have done or helped do throughout the series.

Likewise, I've heard comparisons between them and the Oocca, another sky race that has been helpful in developing Hyrule. Not that I support that.

Nevertheless, I view the "coming from the sky" thing to be an origin for the Minish in a game that is very much about origins and explanation.

Edited by Altum, 22 December 2009 - 09:42 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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It also has no reason for randomly flying to the sky. The fact is it did, and then it shattered. Not that I believe it matters, and not that I'm opposed to it being in Sacred Realm, but at least visually it looks like it split within Hyrule itself. That's all we see, and all I'm willing to go on really.

This is how the Triforce ALWAYS dismisses itself when it's owner isn't using it, though. LTTP Link gets the Triforce, makes a wish, and we see it split. But his wish still comes true, and Link still has ownership of the Triforce. Apparently the thing just dismisses itself and either returns to the Sacred Realm or becomes entirely noncorporeal, so as not to muck up the day being dragged around making the entire world's sky golden. That'd be a huge pain in the ass.

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Yeah I know why it split in the first place. It was more or less a question about what's so different if Link leaves the timeline or if Ganon, Link, or Zelda randomly dies. It still randomly loses its owner.

Timeline Paradoxes. Link didn't lose ownership by the rules of the Triforce, because he gets the Triforce of Courage in his childhood time due to qualifying, causing the "divine prank", but he can't have both, so the adult timeline one stays behind and shatters from the weigh of the paradox.

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Okay, but then if it didn't get passed down, it would just go to the Sacred Realm? That's what you're thinking, right? See, I'm of the belief that it would just be left wherever it was, waiting to be reclaimed. And if someone not representing that pieces attribute touched it, then it would likely return to the Sacred Realm. Or maybe just not activate at least.

In every single case of a Triforce piece just sitting there after the death of the owner, it's either because the person was only physically holding the piece instead of having it within themselves, or it was deliberately willed that way. OOT, TP, and TWW give a subtle, but very strong, implication that killing the owner of a Triforce wouldn't let you take it; you have to draw it out, or else you'll lose your chance by killing them.

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Okay, I think you may have confused what I was saying. More or less what I'm getting at is if Sheik/Zelda and the Sages may have known that Link had the ToC without it revealing itself in OoT up to that point, couldn't it be assumed that the Sages in TP would also have sensed it within Ganondorf before it randomly activated? This is why I think the split may have happened there. If it's because Link timeline-hopped, that would make sense for the split, but to me it seems like the Triforce split some time afterward.

The Triforce could've split as soon as the moment Link got there, but it's not going to activate until Ganondorf uses it. There's no implication that Zelda and the Sages have any Triforce-seeing powers. More likely, the Sages knew because Rauru, uh...WATCHED LINK GET IT while he was asleep, and Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom, so lolclairvoyance? Or she might've just noticed that her piece vibrates when she's near him.

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Who knows? The point is there is an unknown, large amount of time between when they came from the sky in the backstory and when they're residing in the Minish realm (which may or may not be the same location) with one known way in and out at Hyrule Castle.

They never came from the sky, though, is the thing. You're treating an artist's rendering as if it's literal, which given the precedent in the Zelda series, is absolutely stupid. As stupid as using geography as an actual debate point.

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We don't know anything about the origins of the Minish at all. You were the one asking if they were spirits, and while I don't believe that's the way to describe them, they may have some "heavenly" or "divine" origin in order to help protect the Hylians. This part being speculation right here, I think it could be possible that the Minish were created by the Goddesses, or their arrival was maybe orchestrated by them. I mean, they come from the sky and magically create a sword that repels evil, craft a force that is eerily similar to the Triforce and the light that is always used in other games against Ganon, they thrive on making Hyruleans happy, and they intervened when Hyrule was on the verge of destruction. They seem to be a guardian race of sorts, and it sounds in line with what the Goddesses normally have done or helped do throughout the series.

Eh, I doubt it. The Minish not only lack a divine touch to them, but the goddesses aren't big on intervention, and when it does happen, it's always double-edged and neutral, so that you also sort of wish that you didn't ask for their help afterwards. Most likely, the Minish are simply beings that, like every other race, were born at the Creation, and simply decided to use their awesome magical talent to make the world around them as happy and nice as possible. Do they NEED to be anything super speshul divine and awesome and legendary? They're the equivalent of little elves, pixies, and fairies (except we already have fairies, but the Minish fit the mythos of what fairies are a lot better, while most fairies are pretty much living power-ups).

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Likewise, I've heard comparisons between them and the Oocca, another sky race that has been helpful in developing Hyrule. Not that I support that.

Nevertheless, I view the "coming from the sky" thing to be an origin for the Minish in a game that is very much about origins and explanation.

Hey, better idea. THE LOCOMO BECOME THE UNSEEN WIND TRIBE!!!!!

[Average Gamer]

'Altum', on 22 Dec 2009 - 2:38 PM, said:

It also has no reason for randomly flying to the sky.

As MPS pointed out, that's how the Triforce typically dismisses itself. It left because it had no reason to stick around.

'Altum' said

Yeah I know why it split in the first place. It was more or less a question about what's so different if Link leaves the timeline or if Ganon, Link, or Zelda randomly dies. It still randomly loses its owner.

Timeline-hopping resulted in a sort of paradox and a necessity for the universe to rip the AT ToC from Link, which isn't the same as a host merely dying.

'Altum' said

Okay, but then if it didn't get passed down, it would just go to the Sacred Realm? That's what you're thinking, right? See, I'm of the belief that it would just be left wherever it was, waiting to be reclaimed.

The only time a Triforce piece stayed in place after its owner died was when the owner was literally carrying it around instead of being one with the piece.

'Altum' said

Okay, I think you may have confused what I was saying. More or less what I'm getting at is if Sheik/Zelda and the Sages may have known that Link had the ToC without it revealing itself in OoT up to that point, couldn't it be assumed that the Sages in TP would also have sensed it within Ganondorf before it randomly activated?

No, because, in all likelihood, Rauru saw Link getting the piece, Impa knew about the split legend and may have had a hunch, and Zelda may have just felt the ToW reacting to the ToC ever so slightly.

'Altum' said

Who knows? The point is there is an unknown, large amount of time between when they came from the sky in the backstory and when they're residing in the Minish realm (which may or may not be the same location) with one known way in and out at Hyrule Castle.

But if something important happened to force the Minish to rely on the castle gateway, why wasn't it mentioned at all?

'Altum' said

We don't know anything about the origins of the Minish at all. You were the one asking if they were spirits, and while I don't believe that's the way to describe them, they may have some "heavenly" or "divine" origin in order to help protect the Hylians.

The Minish appear to be quite mortal and, if I'm not mistaken, we're even told that the Minish simply like to help people in TMC. They don't put rupees in grass for any divine purpose.

Basically, I agree with MPS.

[Altum]

Due to lack of interest and a long day I'm not going to type a response to everything. I agree with both of you on most counts, but I've said that earlier, too. I just tend not to cement views and be open to anything that has support. It helps me be malleable to incoming games.

'MikePetersSucks', on 22 Dec 2009 - 6:32 PM, said:

They never came from the sky, though, is the thing. You're treating an artist's rendering as if it's literal, which given the precedent in the Zelda series, is absolutely stupid. As stupid as using geography as an actual debate point.

Are you referring to the in-game text of the backstory as an "artist's rendering?" I'm not referring to the images in the backstory, but the literal backstory.

'MikePetersSucks', on 22 Dec 2009 - 6:32 PM, said:

Eh, I doubt it. The Minish not only lack a divine touch to them, but the goddesses aren't big on intervention, and when it does happen, it's always double-edged and neutral, so that you also sort of wish that you didn't ask for their help afterwards. Most likely, the Minish are simply beings that, like every other race, were born at the Creation, and simply decided to use their awesome magical talent to make the world around them as happy and nice as possible. Do they NEED to be anything super speshul divine and awesome and legendary? They're the equivalent of little elves, pixies, and fairies (except we already have fairies, but the Minish fit the mythos of what fairies are a lot better, while most fairies are pretty much living power-ups).

No, I don't personally think there's anything interesting about them beyond the fact it says in-game that they came from the sky ages before TMC. I actually thought the entire race was underwhelming.