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Why does everybody seem to assume that ST will connect to either the Four Swords series or the NES games?


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#1 Person

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 02:36 PM

From all the previews and gameplay I've seen of ST, I can see little to no evidence that ST is supposed to be any sort of timeline "Missing Link" as it were between the 3D and 2D games. But that's what everybody seems to be assuming. What evidence is there that ST is supposed to connect to any games besides TWW and PH anyway?

I can only see it based on:
1. Geography (which developers play fast and loose with anyway, so it's hardly conclusive)
2. The assumption that the Tears of Light are somehow connected to the Light Force, which is just an assumption.

If I've learned anything from timeline theorizing, I've learned to stop expecting new games to "fill gaps" in any sort of theory. The last time the NES games got any sort of continuity nod besides the odd "It's a secret to everybody" easter egg was in OoT. I think the developers stopped caring about trying to make new games match up with them.

I think it's going to be very funny to see how ST does none of what people expect it to do. I remember people saying that PH was the definitive link to the FS series just because it had Force Gems in it. Right...

#2 Raien

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 02:47 PM

As I said in another post, the expectation for new games to connect to older games is simply wishful thinking on the part of the theorists, like PH connecting to TMC or TP connecting to TWW or ALttP. There's nothing wrong with wishful thinking, but it becomes annoying to see people trying to reinterpret the evidence to accommodate it.

Quite frankly, I'd think a full reboot of the franchise would be more likely than a connection to old titles, but I wouldn't hold out even for that. Nintendo just doesn't have an interest in meeting people's expectations with this timeline.

#3 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 02:52 PM

People do this with every game.

#4 Person

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 03:21 PM

I notice that there's a tendency for theorists to be wrong around 80% of the time. I think the general prevailing attitude is that "We were right about New Hyrule, so this game must confirm all of our other theories." It doesn't help when Eiji Aonuma goes on record as saying that some of the theorizers are right (I know he was talking about Zelda Wii, but the principle is the same).

I have noticed that nobody tries to connect OoT to ALttP anymore, though. Maybe ST was the final monkey wrench in the works for that theory.

#5 Raien

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:12 PM

I have noticed that nobody tries to connect OoT to ALttP anymore, though. Maybe ST was the final monkey wrench in the works for that theory.


Is Lex still theorising it? It's not over until Lex stops theorising it.

#6 Jarsh

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:50 PM

He's also still saying that "ancient demon reborn" was not a mistranslation and that NoA meant to change it from the Japanese, despite both Jumbie and jacensolo06 saying that the kanji don't match with NoA's translation. I just don't get it.

#7 Raien

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:52 PM

He's also still saying that "ancient demon reborn" was not a mistranslation and that NoA meant to change it from the Japanese, despite both Jumbie and jacensolo06 saying that the kanji don't match with NoA's translation. I just don't get it.


oh lol. Some things never change.

#8 ganonlord6000

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 05:54 PM

I have noticed that nobody tries to connect OoT to ALttP anymore, though. Maybe ST was the final monkey wrench in the works for that theory.


Is Lex still theorising it? It's not over until Lex stops theorising it.

ST already has by showing a new land. And practically all of ZI think that OOT is still the IW. And look at a common progression from OOT to ALTTP there:

OOT-TWW/PH-ST-FSA-ALTTP

Notice how that timeline still shows that the connection isn't possible. And I am saying that either ST will just foreshadow older games (like TP foreshadowed ALTTP) or it will not and force all older games on the CT by default.

He's also still saying that "ancient demon reborn" was not a mistranslation and that NoA meant to change it from the Japanese, despite both Jumbie and jacensolo06 saying that the kanji don't match with NoA's translation. I just don't get it.

Not just the "Ancient demon reborn" line, but everything in US FSA about there being a spirit in the trident. Wasn't that a mistranslation as well?

Edited by ganonlord6000, 04 December 2009 - 05:57 PM.


#9 Jarsh

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:08 PM

Not just the "Ancient demon reborn" line, but everything in US FSA about there being a spirit in the trident. Wasn't that a mistranslation as well?


According to Lex, no. According to Jumbie and jacensolo06, yes. It should be obvious who is right. Nothing in FSA's Japanese text implies there is a spirit in the trident or that Ganon is an "ancient demon reborn".

Also, for the record, I guess I'm technically a "ZI poster" and I don't think OoT is the SW anymore. I did in 1998 and until TWW's release, though.

Edited by Jarsh, 04 December 2009 - 06:09 PM.


#10 ganonlord6000

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 06:17 PM

Not just the "Ancient demon reborn" line, but everything in US FSA about there being a spirit in the trident. Wasn't that a mistranslation as well?


According to Lex, no. According to Jumbie and jacensolo06, yes. It should be obvious who is right. Nothing in FSA's Japanese text implies there is a spirit in the trident or that Ganon is an "ancient demon reborn".

Also, for the record, I guess I'm technically a "ZI poster" and I don't think OoT is the SW anymore. I did in 1998 and until TWW's release, though.

I have been posting a lot on ZI recently (LA is blocked from my High School computers) and I was refering to the member Triforce of the Gods in particular. That guy is convinced that OOT is still the IW and keeps saying to me that the OOT seal wasn't broken in TWW. Despite the fact that Ganon said so himself. I have thrown litrally everything at him and he still isn't convinced. And that guy also says that FSA actually helps to maintain the connection showing how Ganon returns after he died in TWW. Never mind the fact that FSA Ganon is a new one in the first place.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 04 December 2009 - 06:48 PM.


#11 Jarsh

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:23 PM

Eh, I don't really have anything against anyone in the "theorizing community". It's just Lex's pick-and-choosing for when NoA is right and when they're not. OoT still being the SW and other such topics don't really bother me as much as that... for some reason.

#12 Average Gamer

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:16 PM

He's also still saying that "ancient demon reborn" was not a mistranslation and that NoA meant to change it from the Japanese, despite both Jumbie and jacensolo06 saying that the kanji don't match with NoA's translation.


In a recent discussion I had with Lex on this, near the end he tried to weasel his way out by saying that the Trident's spirit was merely the raw power of Ganon, at which point I called him out on it by stating that Ganon's raw power alone wouldn't count as a spirit. That guy will try to twist anything for his theories.

Anyway, people are just obsessed with timelines and, as MPS said, they do this kind of stuff for every game. There were plenty of "Zelda is evil" and Great Flood theories back when TP was coming out, and all of them were soundly proven false.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 December 2009 - 09:19 PM.


#13 Raien

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Posted 04 December 2009 - 09:42 PM

In a recent discussion I had with Lex on this, near the end he tried to weasel his way out by saying that the Trident's spirit was merely the raw power of Ganon, at which point I called him out on it by stating that Ganon's raw power alone wouldn't count as a spirit. That guy will try to twist anything for his theories.


Reminds me of when Lex said that only Ganon's evil magic got sucked into the Four Sword at the end of FSA, whereas his soul went to the Sacred Realm. Try making any logical sense out of that.

#14 Person

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 01:58 AM

In a recent discussion I had with Lex on this, near the end he tried to weasel his way out by saying that the Trident's spirit was merely the raw power of Ganon, at which point I called him out on it by stating that Ganon's raw power alone wouldn't count as a spirit. That guy will try to twist anything for his theories.


Reminds me of when Lex said that only Ganon's evil magic got sucked into the Four Sword at the end of FSA, whereas his soul went to the Sacred Realm. Try making any logical sense out of that.

Makes about as much sense as "Only Ganon's body died in TP, he was really sealed in the Sacred Realm."

#15 Nerushi

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 05:11 AM

"All Ganons are the same."

"I think NoA's interpretation about Ganon being an "ancient demon reborn" in FSA is accurate; ergo, there is still just one Ganon in my timeline."

:mellow:

#16 ganonlord6000

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 07:23 PM

"All Ganons are the same."

"I think NoA's interpretation about Ganon being an "ancient demon reborn" in FSA is accurate; ergo, there is still just one Ganon in my timeline."

:mellow:

It doesn't match the Japanese text, though. The Japanese version said that the trident was just an ancient demonic device. And there seems to be no connections between OOT's and FSA's Ganon though.

Reminds me of when Lex said that only Ganon's evil magic got sucked into the Four Sword at the end of FSA, whereas his soul went to the Sacred Realm. Try making any logical sense out of that.

There is some sense in that. If you count the Palace of the Four Sword as canon, then Ganon got to the DW through the FS and both were sealed. Don't forget that the FS was sealed at the end of FSA.

Makes about as much sense as "Only Ganon's body died in TP, he was really sealed in the Sacred Realm."

OMG!!! Even worse is this: Ganondorf and Ganon are not the same.
A theory like that is obviously from someone who never played ALTTP.

Edit: I know this has nothing to do with this topic, but I just saw a translation of TMC's ending using an online translator (LOL, I know) and it actually said that it was the adventure of the first Link so there can be a variety of Zelda and Link adventures or something. Is this an accurate translation? if so, TMC is most definitely first. And if someone can translate a few words the translator didn't pick up correctly, that will be helpful. They made it to a rominized version, but not an english version.

Thus the adventures of the first link for each story so you can have a variety of Hailar Otozureru Zelda link to the future but as long as there is Owarimashita Michibiki Subsequently we are trying to force ...

It still says that TMC is the first adventure of Link. Come to think of it, this could belong here becasue this thread is questioning why some of us think ST will foreshadow the FS games. I think it will force TMC first, however. *sigh* only 2 days left till ST.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 05 December 2009 - 07:38 PM.


#17 Average Gamer

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 08:11 PM

"All Ganons are the same."

"I think NoA's interpretation about Ganon being an "ancient demon reborn" in FSA is accurate; ergo, there is still just one Ganon in my timeline."

:mellow:

It doesn't match the Japanese text, though.


Nerushi knows that. He was more or less facepalming at Lex.

There is some sense in that. If you count the Palace of the Four Sword as canon, then Ganon got to the DW through the FS and both were sealed.


That still doesn't back up Lex's old idea. Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword power and all. If one considers the PotFS as canon, the Four Sword simply wound up in the Sacred Realm before Ganon broke free.

OMG!!! Even worse is this: Ganondorf and Ganon are not the same.
A theory like that is obviously from someone who never played ALTTP.


Or OoT. Or TP. Or any game for that matter. Seriously, it's blatantly obvious that Ganondorf and Ganon are the same guy. We're even told that Ganon is a nickname in ALttP's SNES manual and it's implied in OoT.

Makes about as much sense as "Only Ganon's body died in TP, he was really sealed in the Sacred Realm."


I particularly don't see why people believe in "but his soul didn't die" and "his soul went somewhere else" theories. Ganon's body died? No shit. That was your goal. You never try to erase his soul (if that's even possible) or imprison it, and he can't shatter mountains or command demons after death anyway.

Edited by Average Gamer, 05 December 2009 - 08:18 PM.


#18 Person

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 08:58 PM

Edit: I know this has nothing to do with this topic, but I just saw a translation of TMC's ending using an online translator (LOL, I know) and it actually said that it was the adventure of the first Link so there can be a variety of Zelda and Link adventures or something. Is this an accurate translation? if so, TMC is most definitely first. And if someone can translate a few words the translator didn't pick up correctly, that will be helpful. They made it to a rominized version, but not an english version.

Thus the adventures of the first link for each story so you can have a variety of Hailar Otozureru Zelda link to the future but as long as there is Owarimashita Michibiki Subsequently we are trying to force ...

It still says that TMC is the first adventure of Link. Come to think of it, this could belong here becasue this thread is questioning why some of us think ST will foreshadow the FS games. I think it will force TMC first, however. *sigh* only 2 days left till ST.


This is precisely why so many people think TMC is first.

こうして リンク のはじめての 冒険は おわりました
しかし これからも リンク に ゼルダにハイラルに さまざまなできごとが おとずれるでしょう
そう ものがたりは つづいていくのです
フォースの みちびきが あるかぎり

Thus Link's first adventure ended.
But hereafter, many kinds of occurences will perhaps come to Link and Zelda in Hyrule.
So, the story goes on.
As long as there is the Force's guidance...



#19 SOAP

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:14 AM

*I* assume these things because it's fun to speculate. Simple as that. I'm sure my "wild" assumptions will turn up unfounded once the game comes out. Actually I hope they do. Surely Nintendo can make something far more creative than anything us fans can think of.

Why do people feel the need to rain on other people's parades? If we're right, we're right. If we're wrong, we're wrong. No one can be correct all the time and sometimes getting is wrong is for the better. People guess because it's fun and part of the anticipation. What's wrong with that?

Edited by SOAP, 07 December 2009 - 05:15 AM.


#20 Sign of Justice

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:41 PM

I'm sure my "wild" assumptions will turn up unfounded once the game comes out.

The game IS out... just sayin' :P

Why do people feel the need to rain on other people's parades? If we're right, we're right. If we're wrong, we're wrong. No one can be correct all the time and sometimes getting is wrong is for the better. People guess because it's fun and part of the anticipation. What's wrong with that?

This.

Also I figure since this relates to FS and LttP I might as well post it.

TMC makes it fairly clear that Hylians were in the BS (Vaati mentions Hylian lore about the sword in the chest. Which happened in the current Hyrule). And LttP specifically states that Hylians prospered in the current Hyrule.

In ST Byrne TWICE calls the sword guy (can't remember his name lol) "just a human".

Unless you're willing to believe that Hylians reappear AND die out between ST and TMC/LttP (which I'm not), then TMC/LttP cannot follow ST.

I figure it was worth mentioning.

#21 Raien

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:00 PM

Hylians are humans. kthnxbai

#22 Sign of Justice

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:06 PM

However the LttP manual says this:

The Hylians (also the root word for the word Hyrule) were the people closest to the gods. In their writings left for their descendants, the Hylians talk of creation by the three gods, the "god of power," the "god of wisdom," and the "god of courage."

For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic.

If Hyrule were named so because of the Hylians, then why are there no Hylians? Hylians are supposed to have the ability to use magic. Alfonzo is unable to use magic and is assumed by Byrne to be unable to use magic, which is why Byrne called it an "unfair fight".

#23 Raien

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:16 PM

However the LttP manual says this:

The Hylians (also the root word for the word Hyrule) were the people closest to the gods. In their writings left for their descendants, the Hylians talk of creation by the three gods, the "god of power," the "god of wisdom," and the "god of courage."

For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic.

If Hyrule were named so because of the Hylians, then why are there no Hylians? Hylians are supposed to have the ability to use magic. Alfonzo is unable to use magic and is assumed by Byrne to be unable to use magic, which is why Byrne called it an "unfair fight".


That point's fine. I'm just saying that the Hylians aren't defined as "non-human". They could be called "more than human", but they're not a totally different species or anything.

#24 Sign of Justice

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 06:22 PM

If Hylians = humans then Hylians wouldn't be practically extinct in LttP.

Sure not completely different, but if NO ONE who found the land and the people who live early in the land's history aren't called Hylians, why would the land be named after the Hylians?

Edited by Sign of Justice, 07 December 2009 - 06:24 PM.


#25 Raien

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 07:05 PM

If Hylians = humans then Hylians wouldn't be practically extinct in LttP.


The only two things that distinguish Hylians from humans are:
-The magic.
-The long ears that can hear the voices of the gods.

At the point where they lose both those things, they are "only human".

Sure not completely different, but if NO ONE who found the land and the people who live early in the land's history aren't called Hylians, why would the land be named after the Hylians?


Because Nintendo wanted to keep the tradition?

#26 Person

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 07:43 PM


If Hylians = humans then Hylians wouldn't be practically extinct in LttP.


The only two things that distinguish Hylians from humans are:
-The magic.
-The long ears that can hear the voices of the gods.

At the point where they lose both those things, they are "only human".

Sure not completely different, but if NO ONE who found the land and the people who live early in the land's history aren't called Hylians, why would the land be named after the Hylians?


Because Nintendo wanted to keep the tradition?

Either that or the Hylians muscled in on the Lokomo's territory and renamed the country after themselves. Wow. I'm getting all post-colonial on a Zelda game...

#27 SOAP

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:43 AM

Either that or the Hylians muscled in on the Lokomo's territory and renamed the country after themselves. Wow. I'm getting all post-colonial on a Zelda game...




I have two theories on this. One is that the Lokomo are an offshoot race from the Hylians dating back to flood in TWW's backstory. We know from TWW that the people of Hyrule fled to the mountaintops during the flood and from then on struggled to maintain a way of life, clinging on the island remnants of what was once Hyrule. What if some of them left to find new lands? One such group could have been the Lokomo. In which case the people of the Great Sea would be welcomed as long lost brothers or something like that. It could explain the simmilar heraldry, the upside down triangle could be a result of the two societies evolving separately over hundreds of years. The Lokomo look basically like Hylians in steam-powered wheelchairs anyways.

I doubt that's the case though. I think what really happened is that the Lokomo were nearly wiped out during the battle with Mallard and the Sages you meet are the last of their kind. There's like four or five of them or something. Not enough to still be a striving nation that just gives over their land to the Hylians but enough to continue a Sage bloodline to keep the tower in tact.

Edited by SOAP, 10 December 2009 - 04:59 AM.


#28 Pinecove

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:27 PM

While we're on the topic of ST...does anyone think ST-TMC is possible?

#29 SOAP

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:08 PM

While we're on the topic of ST...does anyone think ST-TMC is possible?


That's pretty much the debate here. Or at least that's how it started out. I think it easily can personally.

Also, it seems I wasn't too far off by my second theory.

#30 Person

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:18 PM

ST-TMC seems doubtful because the only tenuous link between this game and the Four Swords series is the presence of Force Gems. That's like arguing timeline placement based on the currency value of rupees. We're told that in TMC, the Picori gave the Light Force to the people, and that the Force Gems are an embodiment of that force. Ergo, the order would be TMC-ST.




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