Yeah, but instead of saying that the games have nothing in common, doesn't it make more sense that they just changed their mind about what they wanted the Sages to look like for OoT? They hadn't pinned themselves down with anything over-committal: they never said the Sages were Hylian, they just made an image in an intro. If you'll notice, in TWW's intro Ganon looks nothing like he did in OoT. A drawing in an intro that is very careful not to even show what the Sages look like is not a reason to say that OoT != IW.
Their descendants are Hylian, and LTTP makes this big deal about how the Hylians, the ancient, powerful, wise race chosen by the gods defeated Ganon. And besides, the existence of TWW and TP makes OOT as the IW impossible either way, since they both involve OOT's seal either never existing, or being broken, and Ganon dies in both. A different event has to be LTTP's Imprisoning War.
Also, that TWW drawing is nowhere near comparable. He still looks like piggy Ganon, complete with cape. It's just the art style. This is different than, say, changing someone's race.
If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.
Ever wonder why they make the distinction? It definitely sounds like it treats good wishers better. They way it says it indicates a certain element of disdain for an evil wish. Like 'they get their wish but the Triforce doesn't worry too much about whether it's to the wisher's satisfaction'. And then OoT was released and explained why wishing was different for balanced(good) and imbalanced(evil) people. The developers are laying it out on a silver platter for you.
That quote says no such thing, quit lying and changing the facts. It simply says that it grants the person's wishes, while it's good, like "save everyone", or evil, like "destroy the kingdom." The Triforce splits depending on whether or not someone's heart is balanced, but this has nothing to do with Good or Evil, as the Triforce cannot judge that. The Triforce judges the heart's balance, but it cannot judge good and evil. Therefore, while good people tend to be balanced, and evil people tend to be unbalanced, it is not the same thing.
If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.
How can it grant the wish if an evil person will make the Triforce split? And even in ALttP, Ganon is talking about making his wish come true himself.
It doesn't. See above, only an imbalanced person splits the Triforce.
No no, I asked WHY not. WHY is there a difference between the way LoZ Zelda owns her Triforce and TP Zelda owns her Triforce. Is there an in-universe reason?
None that's outright stated, but their possessions are treated differently. Perhaps a result of the Great King's wish involves keeping anyone from absorbing a Triforce so that the Chosen One can claim it, or perhaps the Triforce of Wisdom was the property of the "Royal Family" as a collective instead of "Zelda."
First off, and I'm glad you included the word 'nigh' so I know you realise this, the TWW Sages demonstrate the changing appearance of OoT races, whether or not you want to believe they're related to the OoT Sages. Second, just so we can be sure of what exact relationship they have, can you dig up the translation for these:
You must find the one who carries on
my bloodline... The one who holds this
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the
passing of generations...but the fate carried
within my bloodline endures the ravages of
all the years. It survives.
It is my fate to return the power to repel
evil to your Master Sword.
...And to ease the regrets of my ancestors.
Oh, [player_name], please! You must take
me with you to the Wind Temple.
[player_name], I have fully restored the
power to repel evil to your Master Sword.
...And my ancestors are most satisfied.
Because I know you guys have done some translations and you'd probably find them quicker than me.
I'm not really the guy to come to for the translations, but I do know the context. Lemme try.
I've gotten the passages about the sages done.
Oh, hero chosen by the Master Sword.
O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!
My name is Laruto.
My name is Laruto.
その昔から、この大地の神殿で マスターソードに退魔の力を宿すため 神への祈りを捧げて来た ゾーラ族の賢者
Since ancient times, I have been lifting up prayers to the gods in this Earth Temple in order to keep the anti-demon power in the Master Sword. I am a sage of the Zora race.
I am a Zora sage. For an age, I offered my prayers here in the Earth Temple, praying that the power to repel evil would ever remain within the Master Sword.
残念ながら、アナタの持つマスターソードは ガノンドロフの策謀によって すでに その力を失っています
Unfortunately, the Master Sword you possess has already lost that power due to Ganondorf’s strategy.
And yet...unfortunately, due to Ganondorf's evil designs, the Master Sword you hold has lost this power.
時の勇者により滅ぼされたガノンドロフが 再びハイラルに蘇った時 ガノンドロフは、その剣の力を消し去るべく この神殿を襲い、私の命を奪い去りました その剣に再び 退魔の力を蘇らせるには 私に代わり この神殿で 神に祈りを捧げる者が 必要なのです
When Ganondorf, who had been destroyed by the Hero of Time, was revived to Hyrule, he attacked this temple and took my life in order to erase that sword’s power. In order to restore the anti-demon power to the blade, someone to pray in this temple in my stead is needed.
After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Time, Ganondorf was sealed away...but not for all time. He was revived, and he returned to Hyrule in a red wrath. He attacked this temple and stole my soul, knowing that he had to remove the power contained in that enchanted blade. In order to return the power to repel evil to your sword, you must find another to take my stead in this temple and ask the gods for their assistance.
The person to do this is the one descended from me, the one who possesses this sacred instrument.
You must find the one who carries on my bloodline... The one who holds this sacred instrument...
時が流れ、代が変わっても 血に込められた使命は 伝承されているはずです
Time flows and the world changes, but the mission present in this blood has surely been handed down.
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the passing of generations...but the fate carried within my bloodline endures the ravages of all the years. It survives.
アナタが今、指揮した曲は その者に神への祈りの曲を思い出させ 賢者として目覚めさせるためのモノなのです
The song you just directed will cause that person to remember the song used to pray to the gods and awaken them as a sage.
The song you just conducted is one which will open the eyes of the new sage and awaken within that sage the melody that will carry our prayers to the gods.
This door will only open when that person plays that song.
The door that blocks your way will only open when the sage plays that song.
May you have fortune in your battles.
May the winds of fortune blow with you.
Are you the new hero?
Are you the new hero?
オイラは コキリ族のフォド こう見えても、と～っても偉い賢者なんだぜ
I’m Fodo of the Kokiri tribe. I don’t look like it, but I’m a most excellent sage.
I am Fado of the Kokiri tribe. I know I appear to you as a child, but the eyes can oft deceive. I am a most esteemed sage.
そのマスターソードに 退魔の力を入れるために ここで お祈りをしてたんだけど・・・
I used to pray here in order to put the anti-demon power in the Master Sword, but…
I had been praying here so that the power to repel evil would continue to be contained within the blade of the Master Sword...
Ganondorf attacked and I ended up like this.
But I was attacked by the evil Ganondorf... and this is what happened to me.
You want to return power to that blade, right?
You wish to return the power to your blade, don't you?
それだったら、オイラと同じ この楽器を持っているヤツを探して さっきの曲を教えてあげな
To do so you need to find the guy who has the same instrument as I do and teach him that song.
In that case, look for the one who has the same instrument that I hold, and teach him the song you just played.
そしたら、そいつも 自分が賢者の血を引いてるって きっとわかるはずさ
Then he will surely know that he has the blood of a sage.
Once you do, I'm certain the holder of the instrument will feel the blood of the sages awaken within his veins.
オマエの持ってるタクトは 昔、オイラたち賢者を指揮して 神様を呼ぶ曲を演奏する時に使われてたんだ
In ancient times, that baton you have was used to conduct us sages when we were playing the song to call the gods.
That Wind Waker you hold was used long ago to conduct us sages when we played our song to call upon the gods.
At that time, it was always the king who conducted us.
In those days, it was always the king who conducted for us...
オイラは天国でも、 ちゃんと演奏しているって 国王様に伝えてくれよな！
Please tell the king that I’ll be playing even in heaven!
Please... Tell the king that I will still play...even in the next world!
And when Medli mentions her instrument:
For me, this instrument is an instrument of fate.
This instrument is called one of fate's tools.
I was seen with it, was told to stop, and was advanced to my current position of attendant.
Prince Komali's grandmother saw me carrying it one day and called out to me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the curves of the instrument, you see.
Komali-sama’s grandmother was my master.
She eventually became my teacher, and that's how I became the attendant you see before you today.
だから、師匠のためにも 早く一人前になって みんなのお役に立たないと
That’s why, for my master’s sake, I need to quickly grow to adulthood and be of use to everyone.
So, now you understand why I need to hurry and improve my skills, so that I may help the aerie.
Note: When Medli calls it an "instrument of fate", the Japanese word can only mean a musical instrument, so NOA was incorrect in calling it "fate's tool". But NOA has obviously embellished on Medli's story anyways.
The Japanese words used that got translated into Jumbie's blue, middle lines required some context. The Sages and their powers are remniscent of Arahitogami, "living gods" who pass their powers to non-blood "descendants" through a spiritual lineage. The word that got translated as "descendant" can also appropriately mean "successor" or "heir", and in conventional Japanese often comes up when comparing one person's work to another's, such as "This painter is surely the successor/descendant of Da Vinci." A good parallel would be the relationship of Master and Apprentice, for simple understanding.
There you go, assuming the Maidens are Hylians again.
Because they are. Their blood is deluded, but they explicitly say that they're descended from the ancient Hylians like Zelda and Link are. None of the seven have any non-Hylian features.
Listen. Can we AT LEAST agree that at the time of OoT's release, OoT=IW? This is essential, because otherwise I don't know how to reason with you.
At the intent, yes, OOT was officially the Imprisoning War, but the reasoning was always stupid and riddled with plot holes, requiring too many stretches and assumptions to make it work. TWW and TP address and solve the issue perfectly fine.
Loses'? You have a very different idea of theorising than I do. In fact, I get the feeling you want me to leave?
We weren't "just" theorizing, we were also debating. When two ideas clash and are argued over, this is what we call a debate. In a proper debate, it is indeed possible, and infact normal, for someone to lose when their arguments and ideas don't hold up.
Edited by MikePetersSucks, 18 March 2009 - 02:16 PM.