Conclusion 1) TMC shows the origins of the cap.
Conclusion 2) TMC is the first game in the timeline.
Because it's not like I had any other evidence, nor are you ignoring the fact that the TMC section was huge and comprehensive, covering all arguments. And that there is no convincing evidence for any other placement. Nope, none of that came up.
1a) Ocarina of Time gives us a literal origin of the hero’s garb—they are the clothes of forest fairies.
1b) Majora’s Mask upholds this origin—Tingle says that the “green clothes and green hat” show that Link is of the fairy folk.
1c) The Wind Waker references the hero’s garb as originating in Ocarina of Time.
1d) Oracle of Ages, Four Swords Adventures, and The Minish Cap all also reference the clothes and cap as being fairy garb.
Conclusion) Ocarina of Time’s story of the origins of the garb is referenced even in The Minish Cap. Therefore, Ezlo’s gift of the hat is superseded by the overarching references to Ocarina of Time.
This of course is totally irrelevant, because you took my first point out of context. I fully explained the fact that TMC is symbolic. All fucking four of those points have NOTHING to do with my argument, and you still obviously don't get it at all if you think that they somehow disprove anything. You just made the same damn point four times, that doesn't make it more relevant. How many times are you going to repeat the same damn drivel? This is the last time I'm going to even acknowledge it at all. It's not worth pointing out your misunderstanding over and over.
Also, is this reference to fairy clothes in TMC referring to Tingle? Because I seriously fucking hope you know better than to try and use Tingle as evidence. For God's sake, you must have learnt SOMETHING. Tingle is crazy. They were keeping his dialogue and behaviour consistent with MM and TWW. In MM he's a resident of Termina, it doesn't have anything to do with Kokiri. He just associates green clothes with fairies.
2) The hero in the backstory having no cap gives significance to Link receiving a hat from Ezlo. That is, if the hero in the backstory had a hat, then Link not inheriting the hat would be utterly meaningless.
Good, you're halfway there. You understand that the hat has symbolic meaning and significance to the story. Now look at the WHOLE game.
3) Bill Trinen also supervised the team that removed the indications that The Minish Cap was Link’s first adventure from his region’s version of the game. Was this move credible as well?
Is this some kind of joke? You have no idea who translated that line. You can't try and discredit him based on something that we have absolutely no reason to believe is his fault. Keep in mind that TMC was translated for Europe first, with several mistakes, and many of them were probably overlooked when the US version was being touched up. I can't imagine Trinent was even aware of it, because he oversees many Nintendo localisations, and he's generally not going to be directly translating them. But anyway, how is a simple missed word, an error anyone could have made, somehow comparable to an actual statement about the game's plot, which he knows more about than us?
I don't see how NM's post at all proves that FSA doesn't come before ALttP. He responded to some minor points, but the big thing was always Ganon. He shows the intent for FSA to be a prequel to ALttP. I'll respond to a few things, though.
This really doesn’t prove anything. There was a Lost Woods in OOT, and no one had ever claimed that Ganon turned those woods from good woods to bad woods. The forest in ALTTP in which the MS is resting was called Sacred Grove in TP, and supposedly it is the same place. So how does Sacred Grove change to Forest of Light where a Dark Mirror was placed? I understand the explanation you give for this transformation, but it isn’t a 100% conclusive fact that the Lost Woods in FSA is that same as ALTTP. For all you know that wooded area in LOZ could become the new Forest of Light where Kakariko village is rebuilt within it, as shown in FSA.
I discussed why the Lost Woods in OoT is a different forest to the one in ALttP, so OoT doesn't change anything. The Sacred Grove and ALttP's Lost Woods are both at the Master Sword's location, or the Temple of Time's former location. That cannot physically be the Lost Woods in OoT, so any names are irrelevant. And the Sacred Grove changing its name to the Forest of Light is also pretty meaningless - the names of things change over time, we see that constantly. The mirror is irrelevant; you can't say that something isn't there because we don't see it and it's not part of the plot. And really, how the hell can you say that FSA and ALttP have different Lost Woods? The two games have IDENTICAL geography. They're clearly intended to be the same.
I don't even claim that the Dark Mirror and Magic Mirror are the same, so I can't comprehend why you're attacking that argument. It's entirely separate to the discussion of FSA's placement.
They don’t need to be the same Knights. It could work perfectly well if a new group of Knights emerged after LOZ. You keep basing your assumptions and conclusions around the idea FSA comes before ALTTP. You can’t use your say so of FSA coming before ALTTP as evidence supporting FSA coming before ALTTP.
No, them being the same knights is a very logical inference. They aren't just normal Hylian Knights, they're a special group. In English, that's the Knights of Hyrule, and is deliberately the same as in ALttP. In Japanese, it's a specific family of knights, which is what they're called in FSA and in the Imprisoning War story. There's no problem in saying that they're intended to be the same knights.
The thieves were in Kakariko Village because of the chaos. Not because they were based there initially. There are thieves everywhere; they don’t need to be the same thieves. Again, see my explanation in the previous statement.
As with all of these points, I never SAID it was proof. I listed the minor things to start with. But circumstantial evidence is still evidence. There's no alternative evidence to support a post-LoZ placement. ALL the circumstantial evidence fits with pre-ALttP.
Actually, this is a negative aspect of your theory. A Desert Temple existed in OOT and TP, both prior to FSA and ALTTP, which served no purpose of “guarding pyramids.” Obviously, you have to “speculate” that Desert Colossus/Desert Temple from OOT/TP disappeared in time for a new temple to be built as well as a pyramid.
Um, I fail to see how this is negative. I can see that you're trying to show that it's irrelevant, but in no way does this detract from my theory. Anyway, who on earth thinks that the Spirit Temple is the same as Arbiter's Grounds? I wouldn't see the Spirit Temple as being the Desert Temple, anyway, and that's certainly not the same as Arbiter's Grounds. The only place where you can make a logical connection is between FSA, and ALttP, since basically all the places in those games are the same.
They aren’t the same Maidens. The Maidens in ALTTP don’t have as much power because of Ganon. Just like with the Knights and the Thieves, they could be totally new maidens.
Er, sure... And all of this pure speculation proves that FSA should be anywhere but before ALttP? They don't have to be the same maidens, but it's still IMPLIED that they are. And ALttP doesn't say that Ganon has anything to do with the maidens lacking power, rather, it's suggested that they never had much power in the first place.
Actually, FSA fits better with LOZ than it does with ALTTP.
Please, look at the maps and say that again.
We know Gorons exist after ALTTP because they exist in Oracles, as well as (surprise) good Zoras.
Not in Hyrule.
Everything you presented is insufficient as well as easily debunked.
I don't think you understand the meaning of evidence. Every single one of those points is evidence. I never claimed that any one thing was sufficient to prove a placement, but it's clear what the intent running all throughout FSA is. You haven't really "debunked" those points, either, you've just raised the possibility that they could all be wrong. Well, no shit, anything could magically and speculatively be different, that doesn't make it true. There's no evidence. None of this favours another placement of FSA.
Now, the final blow to this theory is Ganon. No matter how you look at it, when this FSA Ganondorf touches the Trident, an ancient demon is reborn/revived/resurrected.
1. Read Jumbie's comments in the translation topic about this line.
2. Ganondorf died in TP.
Edited by Impossible, 21 April 2008 - 02:56 AM.