78 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Din. Nayru. Farore. Zephos. Cyclos. Valoo. The Deku Tree. Jabun. Whoever instigated the flood. The Great Fairies. Ciela. Neri. Leaf. The Ocean King.

The three goddesses are the creators of the world, and their laws are applicable to the world, but they still chose Hyrule as the centre of the world.
Cyclos, Valoo, the Deku Tree and Jabun simply retreated to the Great Sea above Hyrule while they waited for a Hero to appear (they all speak of a prophecised hero).
The Great Fairies possess general magic but it they don't generally embody the elements of nature. Their role in the Zelda series is as healers or bringers of power.
The three spirits and the Ocean King protect a certain stretch of water but that doesn't make them embody the elements for the world.

Regrettable, but should I not allow my son to prosper just because it's possible that prosperity could be envied and taken from him?

You would consider the death of your son "regrettable"? That sounds totally blasee and not in line with the responsibility a king would have over the safety of his people, let alone a father to son. The only time when a good parent can accept their child putting themselves into danger is as self-sacrifice for the good of others, like the police or the army. The Hyrulian people are not expected to make sacrifices, so the King can't be expected to put them in a dangerous situation.

He wanted the floodwaters to recede so that he could conquer the world he had coveted. Which includes the Old Hyrule.

And why does he covet Hyrule?

Edited by jhurvid, 20 April 2008 - 02:20 PM.

[LionHarted]

The three goddesses are the creators of the world, and their laws are applicable to the world, but they still chose Hyrule as the centre of the world.
Cyclos, Valoo, the Deku Tree and Jabun simply retreated to the Great Sea above Hyrule while they waited for a Hero to appear (they all speak of a prophecised hero).
The Great Fairies possess general magic but it they don't generally embody the elements of nature. Their role in the Zelda series is as healers or bringers of power.
The three spirits and the Ocean King protect a certain stretch of water but that doesn't make them embody the elements for the world.

They can choose a new center of the world.
They are spirits of nature; you are claiming these are limited to Hyrule.
Power, Wisdom, Courage, Happiness, Magic. They give you magical Fire, Wind, and Love. In Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Link can't even use magic without them.
This is also true of any of the deities related to Hyrule.

You would consider the death of your son "regrettable"? That sounds totally blasee and not in line with the responsibility a king would have over the safety of his people, let alone a father to son. The only time when a good parent can accept their child putting themselves into danger is as self-sacrifice for the good of others, like the police or the army. The Hyrulian people are not expected to make sacrifices, so the King can't be expected to put them in a dangerous situation.

I would consider giving my son freedom to pursue his own happiness essential, no matter what it leads to.

And why does he covet Hyrule?

Because it's better than the Great Sea? And, prior to TWW, better than the desert?

[Raien]

They can choose a new center of the world.

Possible, but fanfiction as far as the story is concerned.

They are spirits of nature; you are claiming these are limited to Hyrule.

They affect the world, but they only appear in the vicinity of Hyrule.

Power, Wisdom, Courage, Happiness, Magic. They give you magical Fire, Wind, and Love. In Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Link can't even use magic without them.

Specific fairies might wield specific elements, but that possession doesn't mean if affects the outside world. The power of the Deku Tree is connected to the power of all forest magic, but we can't say the same thing for a fairy that wields forest magic.

I would consider giving my son freedom to pursue his own happiness essential, no matter what it leads to.

You know what? This parallel isn't working. Of course we want individuals to follow their own ambitions, but as a collective, it's more important to the rulers that everyone is safe from harm. Crime or terrorism will always be a higher government agenda than good education. The King will decide which course of action makes the people safer, and then allow them to follow their individual ambitions from that point. That is where Link and Zelda come into the picture.

Because it's better than the Great Sea? And, prior to TWW, better than the desert?

But Ganondorf was going to destroy the prosperity that made Hyrule better. Why would he covet a "better" land if he's just going to destroy it?

Edited by jhurvid, 20 April 2008 - 03:55 PM.

[LionHarted]

Possible, but fanfiction as far as the story is concerned.

The level of significance you're placing on it is just as fanficticious.

They affect the world, but they only appear in the vicinity of Hyrule.

As I recall, your argument was "only Hyrule possesses magic connected directly to the gods." This is not true; see the titular item in Wind Waker and the actions of the Goddess of Time in Majora's Mask, etc. etc. etc.

Your argument is therefore utterly false.

Specific fairies might wield specific elements, but that possession doesn't mean if affects the outside world. The power of the Deku Tree is connected to the power of all forest magic, but we can't say the same thing for a fairy that wields forest magic.

The Deku Tree is connected to...

Now you're just making stuff up.

And if you could give your son and equal amount of happiness, while at the same time minimising the danger he finds himself in, would you not do so?

I don't see how this is related to the topic.

You're arguing that Hyrule can't come back because it was blessed by the gods, and would therefore be coveted, and that is why it is gone.

Yet, it was blessed by the gods in that it was prosperous, so should no other country be so prosperous? This is what you are arguing, this is what I am arguing against.

The existence of evil does not negate the existence of good.

But Ganondorf was going to destroy the prosperity that made Hyrule better. Why would he covet a "better" land if he's just going to destroy it?

We don't know what Ganondorf was going to do with Hyrule after TWW.

[Raien]

The level of significance you're placing on it is just as fanficticious.

Not really. If I may respond to one of your other arguments, to explain this one:

We don't know what Ganondorf was going to do with Hyrule after TWW.

What does Ganon do in every Zelda game, and what is said to have done in TWW's back story? He wants to cover Hyrule in Darkness; turn Hyrule into a Dark World, a world of monsters. What this proves is that Ganon doesn't care about the gods' blessings, the prosperity, the people or anything that we can determine as general wealth. He's on a mission of destruction, and has been specifically said to be motivated to destroy Hyrule.

There is but one thing that would remain intact if Ganondorf covered Hyrule in Darkness; the fact that this land is Hyrule, the chosen kingdom of the gods. It's like the Christians going into the Holy Land with the intention of destroying the old religious symbols and resurrecting new ones. All that would remain intact from the transformation is that the land is a representation of holy power. That's the only possible thing that Ganondorf could want from the destruction of Hyrule, and that's why I place so much emphasis on it.

As I recall, your argument was "only Hyrule possesses magic connected directly to the gods." This is not true; see the titular item in Wind Waker and the actions of the Goddess of Time in Majora's Mask, etc. etc. etc.

Your argument is therefore utterly false.

The Wind Waker was an item made for the Hylians, so that example doesn't work.
The gods can govern other lands, but the essences of magic cannot be found in those lands. You're not going to see an item like the Triforce anywhere outside of Hyrule.

The Deku Tree is connected to...

Now you're just making stuff up.

Just as the Light Spirits are the essence of all Light magic, clearly the other elemental spirits are the essence of their respective magics. It's the mythology.

Yet, it was blessed by the gods in that it was prosperous, so should no other country be so prosperous? This is what you are arguing, this is what I am arguing against.

Other lands can obviously be prosperous to an extent; if they weren't, there would be no point in the King searching for another land. But the significance of Hyrule is that it is holy; prosperity is not so much natural as it is divine intervention.

[LionHarted]

Ganon is described as greedy. In fact, he longs to conquer the entire world! Why start with Hyrule? Because Hyrule is the most covetous of all lands, thanks to its prosperity. Because it is such a prosperous land, it can be transformed into a suitable Dark World.

But this doesn't mean that evil wouldn't turn any other world into the Dark World; it merely means that, as long as it survives, it will be the land most coveted by evil. We clearly see attempts to turn other lands into the Dark World in the Oracles games.

That's the only possible thing that Ganondorf could want from the destruction of Hyrule

He couldn't want to:

-- Eliminate all possible threats
-- Take command of the kingdom that poses the greatest threat
-- Obtain a large and bountiful territory
-- Seek to enslave the people of Hyrule
-- Steal the power of the temples?

In LoZ he attacks Hyrule to steal the Triforce.
In ALttP he attacks Hyrule in order to break free of the Sacred Realm.
In OoT he attacks Hyrule in order to steal the Triforce, and later makes himself king.
In TWW he attacks Hyrule AGAIN in order to find the missing parts of the Triforce, and transforms it into a world of darkness. He claims he does this because of the prosperity Hyrule is blessed with. Nothing he says remotely references magic. We can assume his intentions are the same as in OoT.
In FSA he attacks Hyrule in order to steal the power of the Hyruleans. (Force.)
In TP he attacks Hyrule in order to rule it. We can assume his intentions are the same as in TWW.

That's three cases in which he attacks Hyrule to steal the Triforce (counting the two OoT cases as one, and two of these are even by the same Ganon), one in which he attacks Hyrule to rule it, one in which he attacks Hyrule to break the seal on the Sacred Realm, and one in which he attacks Hyrule to presumably steal Force.

So, really, the resounding argument should be that the Triforce should be what is destroyed, rather than Hyrule.

The Wind Waker was an item made for the Hylians, so that example doesn't work.
The gods can govern other lands, but the essences of magic cannot be found in those lands. You're not going to see an item like the Triforce anywhere outside of Hyrule.

1) Proof?
2) Force Gems? Harp of Ages? Rod of Seasons?

Just as the Light Spirits are the essence of all Light magic, clearly the other elemental spirits are the essence of their respective magics. It's the mythology.

EDIT: The Light Spirits only serve Hyrule.

Other lands can obviously be prosperous to an extent; if they weren't, there would be no point in the King searching for another land. But the significance of Hyrule is that it is holy; prosperity is not so much natural as it is divine intervention.

Okay.

I'm arguing that Hyrule in other games (TMC, FS/A, ALttP, LoZ/AoL) is not the chosen land of the gods.

Refute me.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 April 2008 - 04:47 PM.

[Raien]

Ganon is described as greedy. In fact, he longs to conquer the entire world! Why start with Hyrule? Because Hyrule is the most covetous of all lands, thanks to its prosperity. Because it is such a prosperous land, it can be transformed into a suitable Dark World.

But this doesn't mean that evil wouldn't turn any other world into the Dark World; it merely means that, as long as it survives, it will be the land most coveted by evil. We clearly see attempts to turn other lands into the Dark World in the Oracles games.

You've dodged the point. Why does Ganondorf covet Hyrule if he wants to transform it into a world of Darkness? What specific part of Hyrule does Ganondorf want ownership of, at the cost of everything else in Hyrule? If spreading Darkness is means to an end, what is the end to Ganondorf's means?

So, really, the resounding argument should be that the Triforce should be what is destroyed, rather than Hyrule.

The power of the gods made the world and the power of the gods governs the world. So if the Triforce is the essence of the world, would destroying the Triforce destroy the world? I know I'm speculating, but this would be a good reason why the Triforce never gets destroyed.

1) Proof?

This is the Wind Waker! It is a baton of
sorts that was used long ago when the
people played music in prayer to the gods.

In those days, simply using it allowed one
to borrow the power of the gods, but
I do not know if it still works.

2) Force Gems? Harp of Ages? Rod of Seasons?

Life force is irrespective to the land in which it can be found.
The Harp of Ages and Rod of Seasons are said to specifically involve the lands in which they are found. The Rod of Seasons only affected nature on Holodrum. Thus, they are not fundamental to time and seasons in the world.

THERE ARE LIGHT SPIRITS OUTSIDE OF HYRULE.

Where? The four Light Spirits in TP are all within Hyrule's boundaries, so you can't be referring to them.

Link's Awakening? No.
Oracle of Seasons/Ages (thinks hard)? No.
Majora's Mask? No.
Phantom Hourglass. No.

I give up. Where are they?

I'm arguing that Hyrule in other games (TMC, FS/A, ALttP, LoZ/AoL) is not the chosen land of the gods.

Refute me.

Your argument is based on a fanmade discrepancy; that one kingdom called Hyrule is actually two. The lack of meaningful change between Hyrule in OoT and ALTTP refutes this discrepancy.

Edited by jhurvid, 20 April 2008 - 05:36 PM.

[LionHarted]

Why does Ganondorf covet Hyrule if he wants to transform it into a world of Darkness? What specific part of Hyrule does Ganondorf want ownership of, at the cost of everything else in Hyrule? If spreading Darkness is means to an end, what is the end to Ganondorf's means?

I have answered the question.

He wants territory. He wants GOOD territory. He's not satisfied with the desert; he wants Hyrule, the chosen land, because it's better than his wasteland. He covets the prosperity of Hyrule.

Neither of us knows the answer to your last two questions.

Life force is irrespective to the land in which it can be found.
The Harp of Ages and Rod of Seasons are said to specifically involve the lands in which they are found. The Rod of Seasons only affected nature on Holodrum. Thus, they are not fundamental to time and seasons in the world.

Life force is the power of life; it is fundamental to life. Stop dodging your own point.
Your point about the Harp and Rod are false and baseless. The Harp and Rod are only used in Labrynna and Holodrum respectively because it is only these two where time and the seasons are under fire.

Where? The four Light Spirits in TP are all within Hyrule's boundaries, so you can't be referring to them.

Ordona is within Hyrule?

And as far as I know the curtain of Twilight never covers any territory outside Hyrule... so what is keeping the light in those areas?

Your argument is based on a fanmade discrepancy; that one kingdom called Hyrule is actually two. The lack of meaningful change between Hyrule in OoT and ALTTP refutes this discrepancy.

You still haven't told me what a meaningful change would be.

As far as I know, there is no such thing.

[Raien]

He wants territory. He wants GOOD territory. He's not satisfied with the desert; he wants Hyrule, the chosen land, because it's better than his wasteland. He covets the prosperity of Hyrule.

And yet he destroys Hyrule's prosperity as soon as he as the power to do it. Clearly he doesn't want the prosperity of Hyrule if he wants to destroy it, so what does he want?

Neither of us knows the answer to your last two questions.

It can be deduced if there is only one possible answer.

Life force is the power of life; it is fundamental to life. Stop dodging your own point.
Your point about the Harp and Rod are false and baseless. The Harp and Rod are only used in Labrynna and Holodrum respectively because it is only these two where time and the seasons are under fire.

This part of the debate is off-topic anyway. I'm not arguing the existence of magic in other parts of the world; just Hyrule's existence as a holy land.

Ordona is within Hyrule?

And as far as I know the curtain of Twilight never covers any territory outside Hyrule... so what is keeping the light in those areas?

Ordon is within Hyrule, although the people in Ordon are not fully integrated into the kingdom (hence the ceremony of presenting the sword to the Hyrulian Royal Family).

If you can remember, Wolf Link intercepted a shadow beast that was about to seal Ordona's light. If that light had been stolen, then the curtain of twilight would have blanketed Ordon.

You still haven't told me what a meaningful change would be.

I did on the first page of this topic, so I can only presume you missed it.

A meaningful change is a reason for destroying Hyrule that benefits the people. An example of meaningless change would be geography, because the King is not going to say "That mountain range is in a place I don't like. DESTROY HYRULE!".

[DarkZero24]

GEE, IT SURE IS OFF-TOPIC AROUND HERE

MAH BOI, THIS IS THE BICKERING THAT ALL THEORISTS STRIVE FOR

[LionHarted]

And yet he destroys Hyrule's prosperity as soon as he as the power to do it. Clearly he doesn't want the prosperity of Hyrule if he wants to destroy it, so what does he want?

*sigh*

You seem to be confusing the fact that he wants a "prosperous land" with him wanting "prosperity."

It can be deduced if there is only one possible answer.

Now you're just being arrogant.

I'm not arguing the existence of magic in other parts of the world; just Hyrule's existence as a holy land.

Bull.

Your argument was that Ganondorf coveted Hyrule because it was a magical land.

Ordon is within Hyrule

I seem to recall several interviews saying it is not.

And, again, what protects territory outside Hyrule?

A meaningful change is a reason for destroying Hyrule that benefits the people. An example of meaningless change would be geography, because the King is not going to say "That mountain range is in a place I don't like. DESTROY HYRULE!".

You clearly misunderstand my point.

What.
Would.
A.
Meaningful.
Change.
In.
The.
New.
Hyrule.
From.
The.
Old.
One.
Be?

[Raien]

You seem to be confusing the fact that he wants a "prosperous land" with him wanting "prosperity."

No, I'm not. If Ganondorf wanted a prosperous land, he would not change Hyrule after taking control of it. Instead, he covers it in Darkness and thus destroys what makes it prosperous.

The best comparison with Ganondorf would be Sauron. He does not care for what is in the land or that which makes it "prosperous", but he merely wants to possess it. Why? Because ownership is symbolic of power. Hyrule is a power symbol in the world because it is the chosen land of the gods; that is why Ganondorf covets it.

Your argument was that Ganondorf coveted Hyrule because it was a magical land.

My argument was that the nature of Hyrule's magic supported its existence as a holy land. It's the area in which the essences of all nature in the world can be found.

And, again, what protects territory outside Hyrule?

Indeed. If the Light Spirits cover the regions of Hyrule, what does stop the outside world from becoming Darkness? This is probably one of those examples where it is best to assume the perspective of a myth storyteller rather than as a literal historian, since the Light Spirits plot solely exists to tell TP's story.

You clearly misunderstand my point.

So you want an example. Well, the King wishes for the people to have hope, and he then tells Link and Zelda to find a new land for the people to live in. Link and Zelda follow his words in TWW's ending. Let's believe for a moment that the King's hope prevails. Link and Zelda find a new land, and the people on the Great Sea are encouraged to form a new kingdom there. The kingdom would prosper in that new land, but without the magic that drives the struggle between the forces of Light and Darkness, the people would be left in peace.

Removing the fight between Light and Darkness would be meaningful change because it beneficially affects the lives of the people who live in that new kingdom.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 07:43 AM.

[NM87]

Well, that was very impressive Impossible. I agree with everything completely - almost.

I’m sorry to hear that you believe that FSA must indefinitely come before ALTTP, but that is just not true. Many of the reasons you give are easily debunked to work in favor of FSA being the last game in the timeline.

"We’re told that the Lost Woods were once called the Forest of Light, until Ganon changed it with his powers shortly before Link gets there in FSA. This means that FSA is actually establishing the origin of the Lost Woods, as we know them in ALttP."

This really doesn’t prove anything. There was a Lost Woods in OOT, and no one had ever claimed that Ganon turned those woods from good woods to bad woods. The forest in ALTTP in which the MS is resting was called Sacred Grove in TP, and supposedly it is the same place. So how does Sacred Grove change to Forest of Light where a Dark Mirror was placed? I understand the explanation you give for this transformation, but it isn’t a 100% conclusive fact that the Lost Woods in FSA is that same as ALTTP. For all you know that wooded area in LOZ could become the new Forest of Light where Kakariko village is rebuilt within it, as shown in FSA.

Also, the Dark Mirror and the Magic Mirror are two different things. They serve two different functions, one allows you to travel to a Dark World, and the other allows you to travel back and forth from the Light World and the Dark World. To say they allow you to do the same thing is illogical. The Dark World created by Ganon in ALTTP hadn’t been created yet until the IW, which you presume to be between FSA and ALTTP. So how is Link traveling to that world if it hadn’t been created? The two “Dark Worlds” referred to in both games imply different meanings, because Ganon had created clouds of Darkness in FSA where two worlds were able to exist together at the same time, whereas in ALTP the Light and Dark Worlds were parallel to each other because they reflected each other. Plus, the Dark World in ALTTP is the Sacred Realm transformed into a world of monsters, while I’m certain the “Dark World” in FSA is not.

“In FSA, the Knights of Hyrule still exist, as we meet four of them during the story. When ALttP comes around, the Knights of Hyrule are all but gone, with Link being the last in their line. Although the Japanese version of ALttP only calls them a family of knights, not the Knights of Hyrule, there’s still the implication of the same basic role in both games. Nintendo have stuck with the “Knights of Hyrule” name in the GBA retranslation of ALttP (which is mostly true to the Japanese version), and in FSA. The Japanese version of FSA calls the knights by the same term used in ALttP’s Japanese manual for the knights who died out in the IW (ALttP Link is their last descendant). So FSA should be before the IW, and there’s another major bit of evidence for this later.”

They don’t need to be the same Knights. It could work perfectly well if a new group of Knights emerged after LOZ. You keep basing your assumptions and conclusions around the idea FSA comes before ALTTP. You can’t use your say so of FSA coming before ALTTP as evidence supporting FSA coming before ALTTP.

“In FSA, there’s a group of thieves amidst the chaos in Kakariko Village. At the end of the game, we see some of those thieves in the Lost Woods, where they’ve evidently moved their base of operations... taking us to ALttP, where there are thieves in the Lost Woods, and the former base of a group of thieves is in Kakariko.”

The thieves were in Kakariko Village because of the chaos. Not because they were based there initially. There are thieves everywhere; they don’t need to be the same thieves. Again, see my explanation in the previous statement.

"In FSA, we’re told that the Desert Temple was built to protect the path to the pyramid. In ALttP, it no longer serves its original purpose, now being the resting place of one of the pendants. This obviously doesn’t work the other way around."

Actually, this is a negative aspect of your theory. A Desert Temple existed in OOT and TP, both prior to FSA and ALTTP, which served no purpose of “guarding pyramids.” Obviously, you have to “speculate” that Desert Colossus/Desert Temple from OOT/TP disappeared in time for a new temple to be built as well as a pyramid.

"According to one maiden in ALttP, the descendants of the sages no longer have strong powers, but in FSA, the maidens still have quite a bit of power."

They aren’t the same Maidens. The Maidens in ALTTP don’t have as much power because of Ganon. Just like with the Knights and the Thieves, they could be totally new maidens.

"As far as geography goes, FSA’s Hyrule is nearly identical to ALttP’s, obviously fitting the prequel idea. The only difference is that Lake Hylia and Eastern Hyrule are switched from ALttP, something the developers were no doubt aware of. They wanted Hyrule Castle to be the first boss stage, and they decided Lake Hylia should be the start of the game. If Eastern Hyrule had been kept where it was, then there wouldn’t really have been any “final stage” that made sense to go with Lake Hylia, and you couldn’t really start in the Eastern Hyrule area anyway. With that in mind, the rest of the map is virtually identical to that of ALttP. I also think it’s quite likely that Lake Hylia in FSA is actually Zora’s Fountain/Domain, NOT Lake Hylia, if we’re going to compare it to OoT’s map. That’s because it’s clearly portrayed as the source of Hyrule’s water, and it’s also just south of Death Mountain, exactly where Zora’s Domain used to be. In both OoT and TP, Zora’s Domain has a waterfall with what could be a lake at the bottom, just like in FSA. The differences do show that we can only put so much stock into the importance of geography, though. On a certain level, it is very important to make links between games, but we cannot be completely precise and exact, because Zelda games are designed first and foremost with the gameplay and the world of that game in mind."

Actually, FSA fits better with LOZ than it does with ALTTP. Lake Hylia starts much closer to Death Mountain, just like it does in LOZ. There is a place in LOZ right below the graveyard resembling a barren wasteland much like the desert. The village of the Blue Maiden and surrounding greenery can been seen in LOZ where Dungeon two is located in LOZ. Just above the graveyard in LOZ there are many scenes of trees, perhaps the now retreating Lost Woods. Either way, FSA can connect to LOZ and ALTTP, but I am not here to argue over the placement of some shrub.

“The Kokiri and the original Lost Woods are gone, and Zoras are evil now, but Gorons and Gerudo remain. There’s no current explanation as to what happened to them, and there may not ever be one. This also suggests FSA coming in the MM timeline, after TP, as in TWW the Gerudo are gone and the Gorons are extremely rare. The Gerudo are unaccounted for in TP, but there’s a Gerudo Desert, so it’s quite logical to assume that they’re still around even if we don’t see them. There’s nothing that would have gotten rid of them, they just aren’t in the areas we go to. The existence of some races and not others also necessitates FSA’s place in the timeline to some extent. I rarely put much significance in the absence of a race if they could just be unseen, but the appearance of some OoT races is significant when you consider that they are completely gone from Hyrule (or what we see of it) in ALttP. FSA is kind of halfway between the progression of Hyrule being full of many races in OoT, to almost all human (with some Zoras) in ALttP.”

The Kokiri and the original Lost Woods are gone in LOZ and the Zoras are evil. We know Gorons exist after ALTTP because they exist in Oracles, as well as (surprise) good Zoras. Like you said, just because you can’t see them in ALTTP doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Nintendo had not developed Gorons until OOT so how could they have known to include them in ALTTP. This all could also be true after LOZ, where you consider the Oracle series after LOZ anyway.

There is no one determining factor that places FSA before ALTTP indefinitely. Everything you presented is insufficient as well as easily debunked. Now, the final blow to this theory is Ganon. No matter how you look at it, when this FSA Ganondorf touches the Trident, an ancient demon is reborn/revived/resurrected. Ill even quote that translation topic floating around.

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

So in conclusion, placing FS/FSA at the end of the timeline clears everything up, and there are no inconsistencies with placing it there either. Look here:

………………OOT Future - WW/PH
MC-OOT Past
………………MM – TP – ALTTP/LA – LOZ/AOL/OOX – FS/FSA

Everything flows perfectly and everything explains itself. Placing FSA at the end requires little to no explanation. I’ll make a topic which explains more.

Edited by NM87, 20 April 2008 - 11:10 PM.

[DarkZero24]

hay NintendoMan

[NM87]

hay NintendoMan

No Wai...is it the genius who convinced me to follow suit with the split timeline?

[DarkZero24]

You're like the 5th person that's said that to me.

[NM87]

So it is you. Well I said I would drop by and here I am. So what do you think about placing FS/FSA at the end of the timeline, or would you like to wait to see the reasoning. Or you could just give preliminary thoughts.

[MikePetersSucks]

Isn't that a bit drastic, though? They could’ve just sealed him back in the Sacred Realm or something.

The goddesses seem to be a "Mixed Blessing" modus, to me. Since the Hero didn't appear, they decided to cover the whole land.

Well, the objection I get from most people regarding Ganon getting the Triforce of Power as normal is that he would be impossible to capture. This remedies that problem.

They captured him in the adult timeline just fine.

*snip*

Um...

So how does ANY of that put FSA at the end of the timeline?

[NM87]

Mike-

It doesn't. It only reveals that Impossible is incorrect by stating that FSA comes before ALTTP indefinitely. If you were listening (reading) I had stated that I would be making a topic concerning that notion.

Besides, you don't have to place it at the end, I merely said FSA could be the last game.

Plus, our theories aren't so different. You just place the FS saga in the adult timeline. That’s how you deal with explaining away the FS saga.

Edited by NM87, 20 April 2008 - 11:27 PM.

[DarkZero24]

It's a weird idea. Weird like YOUR FACE.

*flies away*

[NM87]

It's a weird idea. Weird like YOUR FACE.

*flies away*

You've never seen my face.

[Impossible]

Of course there aren't. Those would go against your idea!

I'm not the only one who sees them; in fact, to a lot of others, they're quite obvious. He wishes to give them hope. They place that hope in finding a new land, a new Hyrule. That land will not be Hyrule; the Hyrule Daphnes knows is at the bottom of the ocean. It will be their Hyrule. And thus he turns down Tetra's offer to join them in the search. Prior to this, it is stated that the islands will be connected, that people were intended to build a new country by the gods, and that this would constitute awakening Hyrule. Which, of course, makes sense, because isn't Hyrule the country of the people chosen by the gods? Isn't that what it symbolizes?

You're taking things out of context, AGAIN. I even talked about this in the document. It's emphasised that hope is NOT in Hyrule.

"Flows of time" is too bloody vague to mean anything unless you attach its meaning to something else.
"Leaving the land of Hyrule," on the other hand, is much more specific.

Flows of time is not fucking vague. Link was the Hero of Time. He travelled back and forward seven years several times in order to save Hyrule. At the end of his quest, after saving Hyrule, he travelled back in time. He left into the flows of time. No other meaning is even LOGICAL. He left Hyrule from the perspective of the people in it on that timeline, of course. It's actually less specific, because there's more than one way to leave Hyrule. What we now know for certain is that he left the timeline, so I don't know how you can even be arguing over what "flows of time" means.

Link DISAPPEARS in the scene in the sky, and the Master Sword is on his back, in its scabbard.

So what? He was taken back to the past, when he did NOT have the Master Sword. He doesn't have it when he returns. And it's left behind in the Adult Timeline, because it's around in TWW. When Link is taken back, he's returned to his child body, which never possessed the Master Sword. And he isn't holding it when he appears in the past, because time has already been reversed to before he drew it.

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen you use a detail that would do any damage to your theory unless it could be twisted to your side.

I addressed everything that needed to be to some reasonable extent in the document.

Link closing the entrance to the Sacred Realm, trapping Ganon inside? o:

Except we're in the magical land of 2008 right now, and in this present place the rest of us are living, we know that Ganondorf wasn't sealed in the Sacred Realm on the Child Timeline.

Either way, the King admits to being wrong in not letting go of Hyrule in the end, so what difference does it make?

Exactly. We need to look at this IN CONTEXT. The King accepts that his desire for Hyrule's return was selfish, because he only wanted his kingdom to prosper again without seeing the harm that would cause. Nothing before that is stated matters. And even then, in another line, the king says that Hyrule was "never" to be restored. Lex is isolating scattered details and ignoring the actual context in which they occur. That's why he doesn't understand which facts I choose to see as significant.

I'm fairly sure Hyrule is only important because it holds the entrance to the Sacred Realm (among other things). Of course, the holy-land and power-of-the-gods things are related.

So does the Hyrule in ALttP. That's more a point towards Lex, though, not you. He's pretending their only similarities are in place names, never mind the identical history, identical major objects, and the Sacred Realm. Labrynna and Holodrum are attacked in order to revive Ganon, not because Ganon wants them. Ganon wants Hyrule, and that's all he'll ever want.

I'm arguing that Hyrule in other games (TMC, FS/A, ALttP, LoZ/AoL) is not the chosen land of the gods.

Refute me.

I'm pretty sure ALttP's manual disagrees.

I can't remember where this was mentioned and I'm not going to go look for it, but the suggestion that Ganondorf could be captured in the Adult Timeline, and hence in the Child Timeline as well, is a pretty idiotic omission of facts. In the Adult Timeline, there was a hero with the Master Sword. Not so on the Child Timeline. Ganondorf successfully ruled Hyrule for seven years, and it was impossible to oppose him, because the ToP made him unstoppable. Do you really, seriously believe they could have captured him, AND restrained him for any extended period of time? It's ridiculous. He had the power to break his chains and kill the sages. He didn't do it until the ToP saved him.

And for God's sake, could the three of you find some other battleground outside of my topic? This discussion has no reason to be here. I'm going to post everything else separately, and a mod can split the posts relating to Hyrule returning.

Edited by Impossible, 21 April 2008 - 03:03 AM.

[Ize]

WOW, thanks a lot Impossible, that was an amazing read. I just wanted to say that.
And COME ON, it's obvious TWW is about letting go, so LET GO OF THE ARGUMENT that Hyrule will return in that timeline.

[Impossible]

Conclusion 1) TMC shows the origins of the cap.
Conclusion 2) TMC is the first game in the timeline.

Because it's not like I had any other evidence, nor are you ignoring the fact that the TMC section was huge and comprehensive, covering all arguments. And that there is no convincing evidence for any other placement. Nope, none of that came up.

1a) Ocarina of Time gives us a literal origin of the hero’s garb—they are the clothes of forest fairies.
1b) Majora’s Mask upholds this origin—Tingle says that the “green clothes and green hat” show that Link is of the fairy folk.
1c) The Wind Waker references the hero’s garb as originating in Ocarina of Time.
1d) Oracle of Ages, Four Swords Adventures, and The Minish Cap all also reference the clothes and cap as being fairy garb.
Conclusion) Ocarina of Time’s story of the origins of the garb is referenced even in The Minish Cap. Therefore, Ezlo’s gift of the hat is superseded by the overarching references to Ocarina of Time.

This of course is totally irrelevant, because you took my first point out of context. I fully explained the fact that TMC is symbolic. All fucking four of those points have NOTHING to do with my argument, and you still obviously don't get it at all if you think that they somehow disprove anything. You just made the same damn point four times, that doesn't make it more relevant. How many times are you going to repeat the same damn drivel? This is the last time I'm going to even acknowledge it at all. It's not worth pointing out your misunderstanding over and over.

Also, is this reference to fairy clothes in TMC referring to Tingle? Because I seriously fucking hope you know better than to try and use Tingle as evidence. For God's sake, you must have learnt SOMETHING. Tingle is crazy. They were keeping his dialogue and behaviour consistent with MM and TWW. In MM he's a resident of Termina, it doesn't have anything to do with Kokiri. He just associates green clothes with fairies.

2) The hero in the backstory having no cap gives significance to Link receiving a hat from Ezlo. That is, if the hero in the backstory had a hat, then Link not inheriting the hat would be utterly meaningless.

Good, you're halfway there. You understand that the hat has symbolic meaning and significance to the story. Now look at the WHOLE game.

3) Bill Trinen also supervised the team that removed the indications that The Minish Cap was Link’s first adventure from his region’s version of the game. Was this move credible as well?

Is this some kind of joke? You have no idea who translated that line. You can't try and discredit him based on something that we have absolutely no reason to believe is his fault. Keep in mind that TMC was translated for Europe first, with several mistakes, and many of them were probably overlooked when the US version was being touched up. I can't imagine Trinent was even aware of it, because he oversees many Nintendo localisations, and he's generally not going to be directly translating them. But anyway, how is a simple missed word, an error anyone could have made, somehow comparable to an actual statement about the game's plot, which he knows more about than us?

I don't see how NM's post at all proves that FSA doesn't come before ALttP. He responded to some minor points, but the big thing was always Ganon. He shows the intent for FSA to be a prequel to ALttP. I'll respond to a few things, though.

This really doesn’t prove anything. There was a Lost Woods in OOT, and no one had ever claimed that Ganon turned those woods from good woods to bad woods. The forest in ALTTP in which the MS is resting was called Sacred Grove in TP, and supposedly it is the same place. So how does Sacred Grove change to Forest of Light where a Dark Mirror was placed? I understand the explanation you give for this transformation, but it isn’t a 100% conclusive fact that the Lost Woods in FSA is that same as ALTTP. For all you know that wooded area in LOZ could become the new Forest of Light where Kakariko village is rebuilt within it, as shown in FSA.

I discussed why the Lost Woods in OoT is a different forest to the one in ALttP, so OoT doesn't change anything. The Sacred Grove and ALttP's Lost Woods are both at the Master Sword's location, or the Temple of Time's former location. That cannot physically be the Lost Woods in OoT, so any names are irrelevant. And the Sacred Grove changing its name to the Forest of Light is also pretty meaningless - the names of things change over time, we see that constantly. The mirror is irrelevant; you can't say that something isn't there because we don't see it and it's not part of the plot. And really, how the hell can you say that FSA and ALttP have different Lost Woods? The two games have IDENTICAL geography. They're clearly intended to be the same.

I don't even claim that the Dark Mirror and Magic Mirror are the same, so I can't comprehend why you're attacking that argument. It's entirely separate to the discussion of FSA's placement.

They don’t need to be the same Knights. It could work perfectly well if a new group of Knights emerged after LOZ. You keep basing your assumptions and conclusions around the idea FSA comes before ALTTP. You can’t use your say so of FSA coming before ALTTP as evidence supporting FSA coming before ALTTP.

No, them being the same knights is a very logical inference. They aren't just normal Hylian Knights, they're a special group. In English, that's the Knights of Hyrule, and is deliberately the same as in ALttP. In Japanese, it's a specific family of knights, which is what they're called in FSA and in the Imprisoning War story. There's no problem in saying that they're intended to be the same knights.

The thieves were in Kakariko Village because of the chaos. Not because they were based there initially. There are thieves everywhere; they don’t need to be the same thieves. Again, see my explanation in the previous statement.

As with all of these points, I never SAID it was proof. I listed the minor things to start with. But circumstantial evidence is still evidence. There's no alternative evidence to support a post-LoZ placement. ALL the circumstantial evidence fits with pre-ALttP.

Actually, this is a negative aspect of your theory. A Desert Temple existed in OOT and TP, both prior to FSA and ALTTP, which served no purpose of “guarding pyramids.” Obviously, you have to “speculate” that Desert Colossus/Desert Temple from OOT/TP disappeared in time for a new temple to be built as well as a pyramid.

Um, I fail to see how this is negative. I can see that you're trying to show that it's irrelevant, but in no way does this detract from my theory. Anyway, who on earth thinks that the Spirit Temple is the same as Arbiter's Grounds? I wouldn't see the Spirit Temple as being the Desert Temple, anyway, and that's certainly not the same as Arbiter's Grounds. The only place where you can make a logical connection is between FSA, and ALttP, since basically all the places in those games are the same.

They aren’t the same Maidens. The Maidens in ALTTP don’t have as much power because of Ganon. Just like with the Knights and the Thieves, they could be totally new maidens.

Er, sure... And all of this pure speculation proves that FSA should be anywhere but before ALttP? They don't have to be the same maidens, but it's still IMPLIED that they are. And ALttP doesn't say that Ganon has anything to do with the maidens lacking power, rather, it's suggested that they never had much power in the first place.

Actually, FSA fits better with LOZ than it does with ALTTP.

...

Please, look at the maps and say that again.

We know Gorons exist after ALTTP because they exist in Oracles, as well as (surprise) good Zoras.

Not in Hyrule.

Everything you presented is insufficient as well as easily debunked.

I don't think you understand the meaning of evidence. Every single one of those points is evidence. I never claimed that any one thing was sufficient to prove a placement, but it's clear what the intent running all throughout FSA is. You haven't really "debunked" those points, either, you've just raised the possibility that they could all be wrong. Well, no shit, anything could magically and speculatively be different, that doesn't make it true. There's no evidence. None of this favours another placement of FSA.

Now, the final blow to this theory is Ganon. No matter how you look at it, when this FSA Ganondorf touches the Trident, an ancient demon is reborn/revived/resurrected.

1. Read Jumbie's comments in the translation topic about this line.
2. Ganondorf died in TP.

Edited by Impossible, 21 April 2008 - 02:56 AM.

[Impossible]

Fixed a couple of retarded things in the document. I don't want old versions going too far, so try to replace the one you've got when I do update it. From now on, I'll upload minor updates to the document as a separate file, so you don't need to download the zip again. I'm always looking for ways to improve, so if you have anything to add (and not argue over), please do.

Oh, and for Lex, since you obviously missed it the first time:

TMC shows us the origins of Link wearing his green cap. Realistically, this is not necessary, since OoT’s Link already gave us the origin of the entire hero’s garb. So literally speaking, it would make no sense, but that’s not the point. Ezlo giving Link a hat at the end – and this was the VERY end, the final event of the game, which adds to its significance – hinted at TMC symbolically starting the tradition. Most Zelda games don’t explain why Link wears a green tunic, so OoT’s explanation of that really only applies to that Link (and the ones in TWW and TP as a result). It’s not necessary for other Zelda games to take place, as Link normally wears green clothes by some coincidence of fate. TMC is the only game that places this much emphasis on Link’s hat. The 3D game Links wear those clothes because of tradition, or from the legacy of a different hero. TMC Link EARNS his hat through his own heroic actions. That’s the real meaning of the story, especially considering what follows immediately after. I’m sick of people thinking this evidence can just be ignored because it isn’t literal. Narrative devices can be used to determine creator intent, too. And since no matter how many goddamn times I say it, people don’t listen, let me put it in all capital letters so you can’t possibly miss it: LINK’S TUNIC HAVING ITS ORIGINS SHOWN IN OOT IS ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS POINT, AND HAS NO CONNECTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING IS REPRESENTED BY TMC’S HAT. If you try and use that as a counterargument, you’re simply showing a complete failure to understand this point.

As a side note, why would associations between Link's clothes and fairies mean ANYTHING? The point here is Link's clothes and HEROES, not fairies. In TMC, the green tunic has no stated hero association.

You seem to have this bizarre perception of the hat idea that is nothing like what I'm actually saying. I do NOT claim that it is necessary for TMC to be first because it explains why future Links wear hats. In no way am I arguing that TMC Link is the reason why any other Link wears a green hat. That's not the point. At all.

Edited by Impossible, 21 April 2008 - 04:07 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Plus, our theories aren't so different. You just place the FS saga in the adult timeline. That’s how you deal with explaining away the FS saga.

I'm actually probably gonna be moving the FS Saga soon, I just don't know where. But it definitely doesn't fit where I currently place it, under deeper analysis.

[NM87]

Impossible-

I discussed why the Lost Woods in OoT is a different forest to the one in ALttP, so OoT doesn't change anything. The Sacred Grove and ALttP's Lost Woods are both at the Master Sword's location, or the Temple of Time's former location. That cannot physically be the Lost Woods in OoT, so any names are irrelevant. And the Sacred Grove changing its name to the Forest of Light is also pretty meaningless - the names of things change over time, we see that constantly. The mirror is irrelevant; you can't say that something isn't there because we don't see it and it's not part of the plot. And really, how the hell can you say that FSA and ALttP have different Lost Woods? The two games have IDENTICAL geography. They're clearly intended to be the same.

I don't even claim that the Dark Mirror and Magic Mirror are the same, so I can't comprehend why you're attacking that argument. It's entirely separate to the discussion of FSA's placement.

Ok, like I said, the Lost Woods in ALTTP doesn't need to be the same Lost Woods in FSA? You yourself just said names/places change over time, so I really don't see why you would state that the Lost Woods in FSA being the same as in ALTP is supporing evidence that FSA must go before ALTTP. You stated that, before you began listing "100% reasons why FSA-ALTTP".

No, them being the same knights is a very logical inference. They aren't just normal Hylian Knights, they're a special group. In English, that's the Knights of Hyrule, and is deliberately the same as in ALttP. In Japanese, it's a specific family of knights, which is what they're called in FSA and in the Imprisoning War story. There's no problem in saying that they're intended to be the same knights.

No problem with saying they aren't. They could be new.

As with all of these points, I never SAID it was proof. I listed the minor things to start with. But circumstantial evidence is still evidence. There's no alternative evidence to support a post-LoZ placement. ALL the circumstantial evidence fits with pre-ALttP.

~~~

The first thing I’m going to do is prove beyond any doubt that FSA is ALttP’s immediate prequel

-You

~~~

Just to let you know, that these small details do not prove beyond a doubt that FSA is ALTTP's prequel. After you understand that we can get onto the bigger points.

Um, I fail to see how this is negative. I can see that you're trying to show that it's irrelevant, but in no way does this detract from my theory. Anyway, who on earth thinks that the Spirit Temple is the same as Arbiter's Grounds? I wouldn't see the Spirit Temple as being the Desert Temple, anyway, and that's certainly not the same as Arbiter's Grounds. The only place where you can make a logical connection is between FSA, and ALttP, since basically all the places in those games are the same.

Whoa, so you are saying that these three temples can exist in the desert could exist in the desert at the same time? Or that maybe each one could be taken down and a new one replaced? Doesn't matter anyway, the temple in FSA doesn't need to be the one in ALTTP.

Er, sure... And all of this pure speculation proves that FSA should be anywhere but before ALttP? They don't have to be the same maidens, but it's still IMPLIED that they are. And ALttP doesn't say that Ganon has anything to do with the maidens lacking power, rather, it's suggested that they never had much power in the first place.

No, no. Me telling you that these details don't place FSA before ALTTP for sure, does not prove it should be anywhere but. It is only to show you that these details don't prove beyond a doubt that it should.

Not in Hyrule.

[b]They still exist.

I don't think you understand the meaning of evidence. Every single one of those points is evidence. I never claimed that any one thing was sufficient to prove a placement, but it's clear what the intent running all throughout FSA is. You haven't really "debunked" those points, either, you've just raised the possibility that they could all be wrong. Well, no shit, anything could magically and speculatively be different, that doesn't make it true. There's no evidence. None of this favours another placement of FSA.

You misunderstand what I meant by work in favor of placing FSA somewhere else. By showing that these details could be wrong, means that you were wron to say they prove this beyond a doubt. By making the work in favor of placing FSA somewhere else, means that they could also work to supports...FSA being somewhere else. For example, its perfectly fine to say the maidens are the same, and that supports your argument. Its also perfectly fine to say the maidens are different, which supports my argument.

Everyone 'round here should stop getting so hussy about crticisms.

1. Read Jumbie's comments in the translation topic about this line.
2. Ganondorf died in TP.

It can be read two different ways, but it still states those clues anyway.

[Raien]

I've just taken the time to look through the TMC, OoT and MM sections of Impossible's theory (I'll read more later).

There is just one thing that stands out for me (and I'm hoping for a discussion on this). Look for a moment at the placement of the Master Sword in OoT and the situation of the Door of Time in OoT's ending. These two things are supposed to be important to Link's time travel, and yet neither are addressed in any clarity in OoT, and they play no role in the events of TWW or TP (nor are they mentioned). So how relevant are they to the timeline? Can we realistically argue that they play an active role in the back story to TP when the developers have refused to give them any significance whatsoever to those events?

I feel that if anything supports the argument that the goddesses gave Ganondorf the ToP at his execution, it's the fact that such a scenario is directly referenced in TP (both by the Sages, and by Ganondorf later). Communications theory says that when you emphasise one meaning and ignore others, the emphasised meaning is the intended meaning. By that reasoning, Ganondorf would have received the ToP from the goddesses.


Also, I know that the previous discussion about TWW's ending feels convoluted because theories take time and discussion to develop. So I would just like to clarify my argument in a way better than I had done previously.

1) Hyrule is a holy land. It is a holy land because it is the chosen land of the gods, it is where the Triforce lies (the power which governs the world), and it houses the magical essences of nature. It is where the chosen people of the gods were chosen to live.

2) Ganondorf is like every other evil king from fairytales, in that he seeks to conquer Hyrule and the rest of the world because ownership is a representation of his power. The darkness and destruction is but a reflection of his evil heart. What attracts Ganondorf and other evil forces primarily to Hyrule is the kingdom's status as a holy land and its magical properties, which represents the kingdom's power in the world.

3) The King of Hyrule's wish is completely dedicated to giving the people hope for the future, with one line to say "Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule". He then turns to Link and Zelda and tells them to live for the future. Thus, the clear connotation is that the destruction of Hyrule was for the benefit of the people, and thus it must be that living in Hyrule would be worse for the people than beginning a new kingdom elsewhere. If the new kingdom is identical to the old kingdom, then that wouldn't be beneficial to the people, which thus defeats the meaning of TWW's ending.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 01:14 PM.

[LionHarted]

1) Hyrule is a holy land. It is a holy land because it is the chosen land of the gods, it is where the Triforce lies (the power which governs the world), and it houses the magical essences of nature. It is where the chosen people of the gods were chosen to live.

2) Ganondorf is like every other evil king from fairytales, in that he seeks to conquer Hyrule and the rest of the world because ownership is a representation of his power. The darkness and destruction is but a reflection of his evil heart. What attracts Ganondorf and other evil forces primarily to Hyrule is the kingdom's status as a holy land and its magical properties, which represents the kingdom's power in the world.

3) The King of Hyrule's wish is completely dedicated to giving the people hope for the future, with one line to say "Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule". He then turns to Link and Zelda and tells them to live for the future. Thus, the clear connotation is that the destruction of Hyrule was for the benefit of the people, and thus it must be that living in Hyrule would be worse for the people than beginning a new kingdom elsewhere. If the new kingdom is identical to the old kingdom, then that wouldn't be beneficial to the people, which thus defeats the meaning of TWW's ending.

1) Agreed, except I would say that its nature spirits are simply especially powerful, not that it is the source of all magic related to nature.

2) Ganondorf is drawn to Hyrule because the Triforce is there, in OoT. TWW expands on this and adds that he coveted a land less dangerous to him than his desert. Personally I see the latter as contributing to the casting of the Misery Mire area, which is a desert in the light world, as a swamp. in the broader context of the series, Ganondorf is after power, and Hyrule is simply overflowing with it, be it the Triforce or other artifacts like the Dark Mirror, or Force.

3) Destroying the ancient land of Hyrule accomplishes only that--the ancient land that was blessed by the gods is no more. The implication can be that it is destroyed forever, that it will be emulated, but never truly matched, or that it will be inevitably revived. You reject the last conclusion in favour of the first. I choose the middle road.

The thieves were in Kakariko Village because of the chaos. Not because they were based there initially. There are thieves everywhere; they don’t need to be the same thieves.

1) Kaepora Gaebora says that Kakariko's people were once kind, but have since lost their humanity. This can only be referring to the thieves.
2) In FSA, the only thieves we see are in Kakariko, with the exception of Ganondorf.

A Desert Temple existed in OOT and TP, both prior to FSA and ALTTP, which served no purpose of “guarding pyramids.”

The desert temple in FSA/ALttP has absolutely no visual similarities to the Desert Colossus or Arbiter's Grounds. Those two games, however, share the very same structure.

As for the other problem you mentioned, with the disappearing... no, he doesn't. It just has to not be shown in-game. Like, I don't know... Lon Lon Ranch not being in TP, but being in FSA?

I don't run into this problem, since I say FSA/ALttP is set in a second incarnation of the society of Hyrule established post-flood and post-LoZ...

Just like with the Knights and the Thieves, they could be totally new maidens.

Why would they be?

Actually, FSA fits better with LOZ than it does with ALTTP. Lake Hylia starts much closer to Death Mountain, just like it does in LOZ. There is a place in LOZ right below the graveyard resembling a barren wasteland much like the desert. The village of the Blue Maiden and surrounding greenery can been seen in LOZ where Dungeon two is located in LOZ. Just above the graveyard in LOZ there are many scenes of trees, perhaps the now retreating Lost Woods. Either way, FSA can connect to LOZ and ALTTP, but I am not here to argue over the placement of some shrub.

1) Lake Hylia starts close to the mountains in TMC, too.
2) There isn't a Lake Hylia in LoZ, anyway.
3) I thought the area south of LoZ's graveyard was wooded... (kind of like TMC's...)
4) There are villages in LoZ?
5) FSA's locales are ALWAYS based on ALttP's, and NEVER on LoZ's...

No matter how you look at it, when this FSA Ganondorf touches the Trident, an ancient demon is reborn/revived/resurrected. Ill even quote that translation topic floating around.

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

This could be saying that the "evil device of the demon" is being resurrected, not the demon.

Although the reference to a demon sort of means there probably was one...

So in conclusion, placing FS/FSA at the end of the timeline clears everything up

What does it clear up?

Edited by LionHarted, 21 April 2008 - 05:19 PM.

[Raien]

1) Agreed, except I would say that its nature spirits are simply especially powerful, not that it is the source of all magic related to nature.

Yeah. Perhaps "essence" would be a more accurate word than "source". It still signifies the magical power of Hyrule without having too much impact on the world outside.

2) Ganondorf is drawn to Hyrule because the Triforce is there, in OoT. TWW expands on this and adds that he coveted a land less dangerous to him than his desert. Personally I see the latter as contributing to the casting of the Misery Mire area, which is a desert in the light world, as a swamp. in the broader context of the series, Ganondorf is after power, and Hyrule is simply overflowing with it, be it the Triforce or other artifacts like the Dark Mirror, or Force.

Agreed on this.

3) Destroying the ancient land of Hyrule accomplishes only that--the ancient land that was blessed by the gods is no more. The implication can be that it is destroyed forever, that it will be emulated, but never truly matched, or that it will be inevitably revived. You reject the last conclusion in favour of the first. I choose the middle road.

It's true that the magical power of Hyrule declined over time, but it wasn't enough to stop the forces of Light and Darkness from fighting over the land. It was the loss of Hyrule that the King regretted when he made his wish (well, he said he regretted the past, so we can presume he is referring to the loss of Hyrule) and so he obviously wanted to set things in motion so that wouldn't be repeated. Yet in ALTTP, it was repeated, which is quite clearly what the King was trying to prevent with the destruction of Hyrule.

The repetition of events defeats the purpose of the wish.