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IW Ganon =/= ALttP Ganon?


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#121 NM87

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 11:22 PM

OOT being the IW leaves us with time between the IW and ALTTP. ALTTP implies that the seal Ganon is currently under is the seal of the wise men. Not a seal of the FS. On second thought, according to you, Ganon isn't even in a seal in ALTTP he is just stuck in the SR because he escaped from the FS there (how the FS got there in the first place I don't know).

You claim there are two Ganons, even though ALTTP only refrences one Ganon entering the SR long ago who is under the same seal he was trapped at the time of ALTTP, and not any other seal.

#122 Ize

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 07:51 PM

This just means that Ganon has to be revived.

Which has debateably happened in FSA.


I don't think FSA is the IW, maybe IW ganon will be born and sealed in a new game. Maybe not and we must assume that he was born before the IW.

I believe FSA is a link beteen ALttP and LoZ, because it's supposed to be the same ganon, yet he dies in ALttP.

You claim there are two Ganons, even though ALTTP only refrences one Ganon entering the SR long ago who is under the same seal he was trapped at the time of ALTTP, and not any other seal.


so what? ALttP is the oldest refference to the sacred realm and the sages seal, so I say retcon.
Because we are told of one seal doesn't mean there can't be others later.

#123 LionHarted

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 09:06 PM

I don't think FSA is the IW, maybe IW ganon will be born and sealed in a new game. Maybe not and we must assume that he was born before the IW.

I believe FSA is a link beteen ALttP and LoZ, because it's supposed to be the same ganon, yet he dies in ALttP.


I don't think FSA is the IW, nor that FSA/ALttP Ganon is the IW Ganon.

I think LoZ Ganon appears before ALttP Ganon (in a fledgling New Hyrule), and is revived in Oracles and later FSA, sealed at the end of FSA, and meets his final defeat in ALttP.

So I'd agree that FSA is a link between LoZ and ALttP, just in the opposite order.

ALTTP implies that the seal Ganon is currently under is the seal of the wise men. Not a seal of the FS. On second thought, according to you, Ganon isn't even in a seal in ALTTP he is just stuck in the SR because he escaped from the FS there (how the FS got there in the first place I don't know).


Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm which the wise men sealed.

He was sealed by the FS first, and the FS was sealed by the maidens at the end of FSA. Of course it's speculation that the maidens' seal causes it to appear in the Dark World, but that's the only significance I can think of for that detail being placed in the ending - that the sword itself is being sealed. And since the only time we see it that is not absolutely before FSA is ALttP GBA, and it is within a sealed world, shattered, with Ganon on the loose, it seems to me that they're trying to tie it in that way.

Link: FSA ending (hopefully the link works)

At about 2:00-2:04 you see it being cast.

Firstly, the seal is pyramid-shaped, and it appears in the Pyramid in ALttP. While this isn't evidence per se, I just thought I'd point out that it's an interesting coincidence.
Secondly, the seal itself resembles one from a piece of official art depicting Ganon being sealed in the Dark World.

Posted Image

Edited by LionHarted, 11 May 2008 - 09:18 PM.


#124 NM87

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:09 PM

so what? ALttP is the oldest refference to the sacred realm and the sages seal, so I say retcon.
Because we are told of one seal doesn't mean there can't be others later.


I directed the post at LionHarted, but anyway...

There can be as many seals as you want, but the time between ALTTP and is backstory can not be interrupted.

Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm which the wise men sealed.


Ganon isn't sealed there because of it in your theory. If Ganon is up and about between he ALTTP BS and ALTTP, then wouldn't the entrance to the SR be open, thus breaking the wise men's seal, which was to close off the SR itself? Ganon had to leave the SR and then go back in time for ALTTP accoring to you.

Think of the seal as a door. The wise men lock the door, but you claim Ganon leaves, so now the door is unlocked. By the time of ALTTP, Ganon returns somehow and locks himself in?

The picture you provided is probably not unknown to anyone here. Its relevance to anything is slim, and it may not be considered completely canon anyway.

Edited by NM87, 11 May 2008 - 10:16 PM.


#125 LionHarted

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:45 PM

There can be as many seals as you want, but the time between ALTTP and is backstory can not be interrupted.


Why not?

Ganon isn't sealed there because of it in your theory. If Ganon is up and about between he ALTTP BS and ALTTP, then wouldn't the entrance to the SR be open, thus breaking the wise men's seal, which was to close off the SR itself? Ganon had to leave the SR and then go back in time for ALTTP accoring to you.

Think of the seal as a door. The wise men lock the door, but you claim Ganon leaves, so now the door is unlocked. By the time of ALTTP, Ganon returns somehow and locks himself in?


Yes, he is.

He can't break the seal without the maidens' power.
He doesn't use the maidens' power before TWW.
Ergo, unless the first fact is incorrect, he didn't break the seal in before TWW.

So the seal was never broken. He escaped it somehow. He escapes it in the context of ALttP anyway in the form of Agahnim, and he gets around the Gods' seal in TWW without breaking it, so it's not as though this is something that's unheard of.

#126 Ize

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 03:53 AM

NM87, I believe there has been a major communication funk-up, since I believe the IW Ganon is ALttP Ganon, OoT is no longer the IW and Ganon does not break the seal between the ALttP BS and the game itself, somehow returning to the sacred realm before ALttP.
I just meant to say that Ganon has been sealed in the SR twice: OoT's adult ending and the IW

OoT(child)---TP---IW---ALttP---FSA---LoZ

That's how I see it. One Ganon dies in TP, a new one is born, gets sealed in the IW and dies in ALttP. New Ganon touches the triforce, and is eventually sealed inside the four sword, he then escapes, de-powering it (making it the white sword you use in LoZ) and dies in said game.

In TWW, he probably used the ALttP tactic to escape, he used some Aganhim-like alter ego or whatever and killed the sages, weakening the seal.
And what's with the "protector of the seal" subtitles the latter two WW bosses have anyway?

Edited by Ize, 12 May 2008 - 03:56 AM.


#127 NM87

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:39 AM

He can't break the seal without the maidens' power.
He doesn't use the maidens' power before TWW.
Ergo, unless the first fact is incorrect, he didn't break the seal in before TWW.
So the seal was never broken. He escaped it somehow. He escapes it in the context of ALttP anyway in the form of Agahnim, and he gets around the Gods' seal in TWW without breaking it, so it's not as though this is something that's unheard of.

If the flow of events were to be interrupted then the IW wouldn't be relevant to ALTTP. The picture you provided shows Ganon in a triangle seal with soldiers around him. That would imply the seal is from the IW as ALTTP holds.
Ganondorf was sealed in the SR by the sages in OOT with a piece of the Tirforce. ALTTP makes it clear he obtained the entire Triforce. If in the theoretical statement "OOT-WW-LOZ-FSA-ALTTP" it is understood that Ganon entered the SR at least twice, and ALTTP doesn't make the distinction that the SR had already been discovered before. The backstory to ALTTP conveys that the SR was first discovered by Ganondorf, in which he never left after he entered. He never knew how to get out and therefore was sealed.

If he had escaped in WW then wouldn't everyone know that the original seal is ineffective? Yet they act like this is the first time Ganon is leaving the SR in ALTTP. I ask you again, why should Ganon escape the seal in WW and then later on go back under locks in time for ALTTP? Where is the reason the FS is in the Dark World (other than it being apart of a semi-non-canonical remake)?

Besides, the people who made the seal were the wise men, not sages, and I don't care what capcom changed. They were wise men because no one had ever awakened the sages from OOT because the IW should be in the child timeline.

#128 NM87

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:47 AM

NM87, I believe there has been a major communication funk-up, since I believe the IW Ganon is ALttP Ganon, OoT is no longer the IW and Ganon does not break the seal between the ALttP BS and the game itself, somehow returning to the sacred realm before ALttP.
I just meant to say that Ganon has been sealed in the SR twice: OoT's adult ending and the IW

OoT(child)---TP---IW---ALttP---FSA---LoZ

That's how I see it. One Ganon dies in TP, a new one is born, gets sealed in the IW and dies in ALttP. New Ganon touches the triforce, and is eventually sealed inside the four sword, he then escapes, de-powering it (making it the white sword you use in LoZ) and dies in said game.

In TWW, he probably used the ALttP tactic to escape, he used some Aganhim-like alter ego or whatever and killed the sages, weakening the seal.
And what's with the "protector of the seal" subtitles the latter two WW bosses have anyway?


This is more or less exactly what I believe as well. What happens after OOT-TP-ALTTP/LA is up in the air but I usually place FSA at the end, but your explanation is attractive also.

I like how Ganon has to kill sages to break the seal in WW while in ALTTP he is capturing maidens. In WW he actually has to kill the ones who made the seal to break it but in ALTTP he needs their power. Seems like a different criteria of a seal to me. The sages in OOT seal Ganondorf in the SR, but the wise men in ALTTP seal off the entrance to the SR.

Edited by NM87, 12 May 2008 - 10:48 AM.


#129 LionHarted

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 11:06 AM

I like how Ganon has to kill sages to break the seal in WW while in ALTTP he is capturing maidens. In WW he actually has to kill the ones who made the seal to break it but in ALTTP he needs their power. Seems like a different criteria of a seal to me. The sages in OOT seal Ganondorf in the SR, but the wise men in ALTTP seal off the entrance to the SR.


1) Ganon does not kill the sages in TWW to break any seal. He kills them to remove the power to repel evil from the Master Sword after already having escaped the seal.
2) The sages in OoT send Ganon into the Sacred Realm, and then seal the entrance to the Sacred Realm. Not that sealing Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm wouldn't imply the Sacred Realm being sealed anyway.
3) "Wise Men" is an earlier translation of "sage."

Edited by LionHarted, 12 May 2008 - 11:08 AM.


#130 Showsni

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:13 PM

IW Ganondorf enters the SR. The main Hyrule-SR portal at the time is on top of Death Mountain, as seen in ALttP. The wise men (aka sages) seal the SR by making all the portals one way - it's still possible to enter the SR, but impossible to leave again.
In ALttP, Agahnim creates a new portal near Hyrule castle. He is beaten by Link before overcoming the sages seal, leaving it as a one way portal.
After ALttP, presumably the sages seal is dismantled, allowing the people trapped in the SR to return.
The triforce remains in Hyrule until before OoT, when it is returned to the SR, via the Hyrule Castle portal. The ToT is built around this portal to seal it except in emergencies, leaving a key system behind.
At the end of OoT, Ganon is forced into the SR by Zelda, and the sages seal the Hyrule Castle portal permanently.
Prior to TWW, Ganon escapes the SR via the Death Mountain portal, which was overlooked by the OoT sages.


#131 NM87

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 05:29 PM

1) Ganon does not kill the sages in TWW to break any seal. He kills them to remove the power to repel evil from the Master Sword after already having escaped the seal.
2) The sages in OoT send Ganon into the Sacred Realm, and then seal the entrance to the Sacred Realm. Not that sealing Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm wouldn't imply the Sacred Realm being sealed anyway.
3) "Wise Men" is an earlier translation of "sage."


I wasn't stating facts, I was merely agreeing with what Ize was talking about. How Ganon escaped the SR in WW is unknown, but what we were both saying is how killing the sages seems to weaken the seal, although in ALTTP he can not kill the maidens because he needs their power to weaken the seal. Understand that if he kills the maidens he cannot break the seal, but he has no problem killing sages in WW since he doesn't need their power to break the seal. Do you see the comparison we were making? That is why it appears to be a different seal with different "rules".

ALTTP states that Ganon is trapped in the SR because the king commanded the seven wise men to seal off the entrance to the SR, in which no mention of Ganon being sealed. In OOT, they aren't merely sealing of the SR, but they are sealing Ganondorf as well.

The wise men may very well be sages, but that doesn't mean they are the OOT sages. ALTTP depicts the wise men/sages as human men, while OOT sages are a diverse group of lifeforms.

Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man

=/=

Man-Woman-Woman-Kokiri-Goron-Zora-Gerudo

#132 NM87

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 05:36 PM

IW Ganondorf enters the SR. The main Hyrule-SR portal at the time is on top of Death Mountain, as seen in ALttP. The wise men (aka sages) seal the SR by making all the portals one way - it's still possible to enter the SR, but impossible to leave again.
In ALttP, Agahnim creates a new portal near Hyrule castle. He is beaten by Link before overcoming the sages seal, leaving it as a one way portal.
After ALttP, presumably the sages seal is dismantled, allowing the people trapped in the SR to return.
The triforce remains in Hyrule until before OoT, when it is returned to the SR, via the Hyrule Castle portal. The ToT is built around this portal to seal it except in emergencies, leaving a key system behind.
At the end of OoT, Ganon is forced into the SR by Zelda, and the sages seal the Hyrule Castle portal permanently.
Prior to TWW, Ganon escapes the SR via the Death Mountain portal, which was overlooked by the OoT sages.


That is an interesing take on things. FSA is after ALTTP, good. The only objection I can find is in the basic premise of the theory which places OOT at the end, in which it seems to be a starting point. Its my theory ith OOT at the end instead of the games taking place in the child timeline.

OOT-MM-TP-IW-ALTTP/LA- (LOZ/AOL-OOX-FS/FSA) or (FS/FSA-LOZ/AOL-OOX)
OOT-WW/PH

All in all, I think you're theory is good.

#133 LionHarted

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 08:09 PM

That is why it appears to be a different seal with different "rules".


That's a fine interpretation, but speculating instead that he finds a way around the seal anyway works just as well (since he does this for every other seal).

ALTTP states that Ganon is trapped in the SR because the king commanded the seven wise men to seal off the entrance to the SR, in which no mention of Ganon being sealed.


Quite so.

You interpret this as the Sacred Realm being sealed with Ganon inside it, while I interpret it as the Sacred Realm being sealed, Ganon "rediscovering" it, and then subsequently being "unable to figure out how to return to the world of light" until he splits his soul and creates Agahnim.

While the "rediscovery" was obviously originally meant to be the Imprisoning War, if we take the modern timeline in light of the fact that OoT=IW, rather than assuming that this fact has changed, we can then deduce that ALttP Ganon had to have rediscovered the realm at another time and that his inability to return to the light world, apparently from the time he entered, was due to an already-existing seal.

Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man

=/=

Man-Woman-Woman-Kokiri-Goron-Zora-Gerudo


This is all very true, but the "men" have seemingly been represented as mere ghostly avatars since TP, similar to how FSA used fairies as avatars for the maidens.

Although, interestingly enough, ALttP never specifies that the sages are linked to a bloodline. That only appears in the NoA translation. So the association between the sages and their original races may have eroded, especially after a certain flood.

#134 NM87

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 09:02 PM

While the "rediscovery" was obviously originally meant to be the Imprisoning War, if we take the modern timeline in light of the fact that OoT=IW, rather than assuming that this fact has changed, we can then deduce that ALttP Ganon had to have rediscovered the realm at another time and that his inability to return to the light world, apparently from the time he entered, was due to an already-existing seal.


That cannot be possible because Ganon can't rediscover something he knows exists and knows the location of already. Ganon never left the seal he was placed under between the IW and ALTTP because if he did this means that he already figured out a way to escape and then wouldn't need to split his soul in ALTTP to escape when he knows perfectly well how to escapes already, since you claim this is the same seal. ALTTP is a sory of origins, so developer intention has always destine this game to be at the beginning of a timeline, where it has stated that this is the time that Ganon was born, and this same Ganon is trapped in the SR, no subsequent Ganons and no incidents where he has escaped and returned there.

This is all very true, but the "men" have seemingly been represented as mere ghostly avatars since TP, similar to how FSA used fairies as avatars for the maidens.

Although, interestingly enough, ALttP never specifies that the sages are linked to a bloodline. That only appears in the NoA translation. So the association between the sages and their original races may have eroded, especially after a certain flood


The sages in TP are ghosts because a new generation of sages was not awakened yet. This sets the stage for the wise men to take over. Besides, you have to claim the wise men are the OOT sages, don't you?

I must say, you theory is well thought out and viable to say the least. Since you don't place the IW between ALTTP and FSA, here is an argument for those who do. If they claim the maidens in FSA are the same as ALTTP, their argument is shot already. The maidens in ALTTP are descended from the wise men/sages in the IW. How can the maidens exist if the wise men haven't already died and left descendents in the first place? Something I never understood.

#135 LionHarted

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:09 PM

That cannot be possible because Ganon can't rediscover something he knows exists and knows the location of already.


Unless the Hyrule of ALttP is not the Hyrule of OoT. Or that he's a different Ganondorf with the same demonic nature/spirit (but without the memories of his previous incarnation). I happen to believe both.

ALTTP is a sory of origins, so developer intention has always destine this game to be at the beginning of a timeline, where it has stated that this is the time that Ganon was born, and this same Ganon is trapped in the SR, no subsequent Ganons and no incidents where he has escaped and returned there.


Returns to the Light World and subsequent Ganons have been established; it's where they are placed relative to ALttP that is in question.

Some say that the original intentions of OoT were violated by TWW. I choose to retain as many of the original intentions of OoT as possible and instead say that Ganon's backstory prior to ALttP that has been violated. It never fit perfectly with OoT anyway.

The sages in TP are ghosts because a new generation of sages was not awakened yet. This sets the stage for the wise men to take over. Besides, you have to claim the wise men are the OOT sages, don't you?


TP's sages are the ancient sages.
Rauru is one of the six ancient sages.
Rauru is one of the six sages of OoT.
The ancient sages share insignias with the six sages of OoT.

I think the evidence that they're related in some way is pretty clear.

It looks like they've established a priesthood of sorts devoted to maintaining the Hyrulean temples and sealing evil. Only in TWW is this connected to any kind of literal bloodline (all other mentions of a sage bloodline do not appear in the Japanese), and even then it's questionable, since Medli inherits the sagehood from Komali's grandmother, which makes no sense if the bloodline is literal. And I have to admit that the argument that Kokiri may not even reproduce is starting to look pretty reasonable.

Edited by LionHarted, 12 May 2008 - 10:09 PM.


#136 NM87

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 12:41 AM

Therein lies the problem. You are relying on your own placement of the games to support your claims. I have told you this before, but you refuse to listen. In Zelda, you can make any theory make perfect sense, so long as you piece together the gaps. Claming that the back-story of ALTTP has to do with a different Ganon and different Hyrule than the Ganon and Hyrule in ALTTP itself is rather ridiculous.

Lets say is a different Ganon. In OOT Ganon is sealed but breaks free, then dies. A new Ganon comes along and locates the SR and obtains the Triforce but is trapped inside. Both Ganon's somehow obtain the Triforce in part or in its entirety. The new Ganon in ALTTP would have to enter the SR by going to the original Hyrule, which has been washed away, meaning the entrance to the SR has been washed away, since it was somewhere in the original Hyrule. We are also assuming that this is a new Hyrule where everyone still remembers what happened in old Hyrule, even though no one ever knows anything anyway. Since the people have no idea what is going on, as they never do, it only matters if the maidens can remember that they are descended from rock people, desert people, fish and fairy children all of which helped seal a totally different Ganon away. ALTTP is telling the story of this OOT Ganon even though he died along time ago, and there is a new Ganon that everyone thinks is the old Ganon I presume? The new Ganon was trapped in the FS, which found its way into the Dark World somehow and was split to release Ganon.

That's you're theory kk.

Lets look at this. OOT-MM-TP-ALTTP. OOT Child and MM, whatever. TP occurs, OOT Ganondorf on child timeline dies, never enters the SR, never becomes the king of anything, or even the "real" Ganon. So it is as if nothing has even happened yet. The IW takes place, and right after is ALTTP, no explanation needed. Later on LOZ/AOL and OOX, while you can place FSA before or after that series of events. Now did I explain anything, no. I just placed them in an order that doesn't need explaining. The only objection is placing FSA before ALTTP, which isn't even a real objecton anymore anywho.

Edit: Rauru being and ancient sage and having relation to TP sages matters little to none, which I emphasize none. If it were possible hat the sages in OOT & WW can relate to the maidens in anyway, wouldn't matter. The people who seal Ganon in the IW were all Hylian men. Replying that the origins of the sages were eroded by a flood is you relying on your own placements again.

Edited by NM87, 13 May 2008 - 12:45 AM.


#137 LionHarted

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 07:32 AM

Therein lies the problem. You are relying on your own placement of the games to support your claims. I have told you this before, but you refuse to listen.


I am relying on creator placements of the game to establish a context in which assumptions can then be made to accommodate it.
Whereas the other side relies on their own placements, and then establishes a context in which assumptions are made to accommodate it.

This was more or less the problem people had with single timeline theorists after TWW came out. Single timeline theorists clung to the idea of a linear timeline; late ALttP-theorists cling to the idea of a perfect IW-ALttP progression. They claim that OoT=IW theorists cling to that theory, but at least it is supported with creator quotes that postdate ALttP (and therefore are the most recent form of canon on the subject).

Claming that the back-story of ALTTP has to do with a different Ganon and different Hyrule than the Ganon and Hyrule in ALTTP itself is rather ridiculous.


Not really.

We see too many Dark World portals in ALttP for none of them to have been recent creations. The IW story mentions only one, which we never see in ALttP. Even after breaking the seal, Ganon needs to create portals to move between worlds. Ergo, we can presume that most of the Dark World portals are created portals.

The new Ganon in ALTTP would have to enter the SR by going to the original Hyrule


Why would he if he is sealed there by the Four Sword, which is my theory?

It doesn't say he reentered the Sacred Realm, or rediscovered the entrance; it says he "rediscovered" the realm after the location was lost. I simply view it as something more akin to Columbus rediscovering America, with the location being lost during the flood.

As for a "new Hyrule," I'm actually quite undecided as to what such a thing would actually entail. It could entail the Deku Tree creating a new land mass from the old mountains of Hyrule. It could entail the Deku Tree simply raising the old landmass of Hyrule, or removing the water. It's unlikely that it's a new land that is found for reasons already stated by others about the similarities between the two.

We are also assuming that this is a new Hyrule where everyone still remembers what happened in old Hyrule


The only people who have any clue what happened in Old Hyrule are descendants of the sages, and we've seen in OoT and TWW that people with the power of the sages possess knowledge they shouldn't necessarily logically have anyway. They make their stories out to be oral tradition, and, since the sagehood is essentially like a priesthood, these traditions are more likely to be preserved than those held by the common people.

ALTTP is telling the story of this OOT Ganon even though he died along time ago


I argue that no one in ALttP ever mentions the OoT Ganon.

and there is a new Ganon that everyone thinks is the old Ganon I presume?


The new Ganon is the threat, and the old Ganon isn't even remembered (see FSA).

OOT Ganondorf on child timeline dies, never enters the SR, never becomes the king of anything, or even the "real" Ganon.


I'd ask you to prove the two bolded points, as neither of them have been established.

The fact that he has the Triforce suffices to say that he did enter the Sacred Realm and did touch the Triforce, in the absence of any alternate creator/game-posed explanation, which, there is none.

Either that or someone else did, or he got it by a deus ex machina, neither of which is properly established or adequately explained. "Divine prank" does not suffice to establish a deus ex machina, since the common usage of the phrase is to refer to some unfortunate happening.

The IW takes place, and right after is ALTTP, no explanation needed.


The IW self-places itself while the Triforce "is still hidden" in the Sacred Realm, with the hiding of the Triforce taking place at creation.

So, essentially, you're more or less guilty yourself of what you're accusing me of.

Was the Sacred Realm not absent from the Sacred Realm in TP? If so, can you prove it? Otherwise, how can the Triforce have never left the Sacred Realm until the IW after being hidden there by the gods at creation? Aren't you blatantly disregarding stated progressions of events?

Rauru being and ancient sage and having relation to TP sages matters little to none


It certainly does.

The sage insignias from OoT appear on the "ancient sages," who are said to have created the Temple of Time and the Master Sword.
These same insignias are attached to the OoT sages, and represent each of their temples. Ergo, we can presume some kind of relationship between these two sets of sages.
Rauru identifies himself as one of the ancient sages who guards the Sacred Realm in the Chamber of Sages. No other "ancient sages" are seen, but instead we see the OoT sages in their place.

Clearly the OoT sages inherited their power from the ancient sages, and did so regardless of race.

The people who seal Ganon in the IW were all Hylian men. Replying that the origins of the sages were eroded by a flood is you relying on your own placements again.


1) They were originally depicted as Hylian, but OoT's sages are not, and OoT was undeniably written as the IW, so that fact is negligible.
2) It's never, ever, ever established that sage lineages have to be literal bloodlines, specifically those of the sages in ALttP.

Neither of these facts rely on my placement; rather, they rely on OoT being written as the IW, which is stated fact. My placement relies on that fact; my theory regarding my placement accommodates for it.

Basically, the assumption I'm making is reasoned in this way.

The IW tells the birth of Ganon, the first time the Triforce was disturbed in the Sacred Realm, and the events that lead to the sages' seal that is broken in ALttP by Ganon, who is trapped inside. It describes the tales of the sages' seal and the story of how Ganon came to enter the Sacred Realm as a way of settling the stage for the events of ALttP.

OoT is written as a more detailed telling of the IW. It features all these elements: the birth of Ganon, the first time the Triforce is disturbed, and the casting of the sages' seal to trap Ganon inside. It also features tales of a hero who helped the sages subdue Ganon.

TWW is written as a sequel to OoT, and tells of Ganon escaping from the OoT seal to wreck havoc over Hyrule. Hyrule is inevitably evacuated and later the old kingdom is destroyed so that a new world can be built. It describes the tales of the hero sealing Ganon and of Ganon's inevitable revival as a way of setting the stage for the events of TWW.

I'm lining it out in this way to establish how I see two things:

1) When the original game came out, the IW was the only event known to predate ALttP. Therefore any fact posed in the IW story could be presumed to directly relate to ALttP. This would mean that, among known events, the progression was, directly: Creation - Hylia people - Struggles over the Sacred Realm - Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm and seizes the Triforce - Imprisoning War - ALttP. Since Ganondorf entering the Sacred Realm and seizing the Triforce was told to players in the Imprisoning War narrative from the instruction manual, the description of Ganon's history in ALttP could be directly related, without inference on the player's part, to that story.

OoT was then released as a telling of the IW story. It upheld, whether loosely or specifically, the precise progression already established by ALttP, with itself featuring specifically Ganon's seizure of the Triforce and the Imprisoning War. Therefore, we can squelch this known progression to: Creation - Hylia people - Struggles over the Sacred Realm - OoT - ALttP. Everything about Ganon's history in the IW story was carried over directly to OoT. In a sense, OoT replaced the need for the instruction manual story of ALttP. (The fact that the majority of facts established in the original manual are not only slimmed down, but completely left out, should attest to the obsoleteness of that version of the story.) ALttP still had a few major discrepancies, however, with OoT.

Now Eiji Aonuma basically takes the reins. Mr. Aonuma has established that he is trying to "bring things together" and "make some things more clear." Points between OoT and ALttP that could have used clarity were, in order: (1) the decline of the Hylian race/civilization/language, (2) how Ganon could possibly have the entire Triforce in ALttP, given the ending of OoT, (3) where Ganon got his signature weapon, if he did not possess it when he was sealed in OoT, (4) how the multi-racial sages could have passed their powers to the decidedly-human maidens.

TWW is released as a sequel to OoT. Given OoT's immense popularity, another OoT sequel is simply logical product marketing. However, if we take into account Aonuma's goals as a major Zelda developer, we would have to believe that he speaks the truth, and that he is, in fact, trying to bring the series together. TWW, however, while it actually provides a loose canonical background for points 1, 2, and 4, established in the last paragraph, decidedly removes one of the prime elements of ALttP - Ganon is no longer stuck in the Sacred Realm. Now, if Ganon gets sent back to the Sacred Realm in the ending, this is really no bother, but that's clearly not what happened; instead, Ganon was killed at the end of the game. This still can be remedied if Ganon is revived from death and sealed again then, but TWW offered another solution to the problem. The split timeline was formed when Link went back to the past. Technically the IW could follow Child Link's exploits in the past, and still be considered as part of OoT. It could even happen in such a way as to set up perfectly for the conditions of ALttP's Ganon, thus removing any inconsistencies. This seems to be the path most people who followed the split timeline took. As of this point, it was unclear what TWW was supposed to indicate as far as timeline progression. Was it supplying some of the missing ingredients for ALttP? Or was it instead on a different branch from OoT than ALttP was?

FSA was released, and featured Ganon for the first time since TWW. This Ganondorf had an entirely different backstory than the one from OoT, coming from a similar but also different environment. Therefore, we can deduce that he was obviously not the incarnation of Ganondorf from OoT on the Child Timeline, but instead a new Ganon. As of the release of FSA, the only points in the timeline where a new Ganon could possibly be introduced were after TWW, or after ALttP and/or LoZ and/or OoS/OoA. This Ganon also was said to have taken the Trident to become the King of Darkness, which meant that his backstory and role in FSA could potentially be the backstory of Ganon from either ALttP or LoZ. Of course, neither game establishes a backstory for its character beyond what directly applies to that game, so it was up in the air. He could also be an independent incarnation. Going by Aonuma's philosophy of bringing games together, however (which he specifically says in an interview regarding this very game), it seems most likely that Ganon is related to another of the 2D Ganons.

Now, since the Trident originally was shown in ALttP, most were content to place it near that game. The various placements are as follows:

Before ALttP, telling the origins of the Trident and how Ganon came to acquire it for ALttP.
Before ALttP, telling the origins of the Trident but not featuring the same Ganon as ALttP.
After ALttP, telling the origins of the Trident, but having it be reclaimed by a never-before-seen Ganon.
After ALttP, telling the origins of the Trident, but having it be reclaimed by the Ganon who will become LoZ Ganon after his escape from the Four Sword.

Personally, given Aonuma's philosophy, I prefer the first and last placement, and the first over the last. Specifically, I prefer using the advantages and evidence for both placements to resolve the following: LoZ-FSA-ALttP, with the White Sword from TMC being used earlier, in LoZ, with the Trident in FSA being used to reawaken Ganon from LoZ, and ALttP featuring FSA's Ganon after escaping from the Four Sword, which is sealed in the Dark World by the maidens. But this is neither here nor there.

I mention this mostly because of the first interpretation, which, if true, would create a scenario in which the origins of Ganon from ALttP are decidedly different than the origins of Ganon from the IW. It is already true that the origins of Ganon from FSA are different from the origins of Ganon from OoT. If one holds to the intent of OoT as the IW story, this new Ganon origin, if connected to ALttP, would suffice to establish the revival of Ganon needed for Adult OoT to still be the IW. While this is, of course, debatable, I've already made my point on the seal the maidens cast on the Four Sword itself in the end of the game, which would establish a context for Ganon's return to the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP. I feel it is about as justified to say that the seal cast on the Four Sword seals Ganon in the Sacred Realm as it is to say that Ganon's appearance in LoZ is a result of the depowering of the Four Sword to become the White Sword again, and I agree that both, not only mine, are very good theories for the placement of FSA and its relationship to other games.

However, since FSA evokes so much more of ALttP and essentially nothing of LoZ, I prefer the pre-ALttP placement. I also cite certain details in FSA which make sense if it's before ALttP but make less sense if it's after.

So, since OoT is the IW, since TWW prevents Adult OoT from directly flowing into ALttP, and since FSA gives us all the ingredients needed for ALttP that were destroyed in TWW, I would say that it's quite possible for OoT to be the IW without directly relating to ALttP. Since the main problem - Ganon's escape in TWW - relies on ALttP's establishment of Ganon's backstory as including the IW, and the most recent version of the game completely leaves him out, I would say that ALttP Ganon is free to have a backstory that is completely unrelated to the IW. Some would argue that the manual is trimmed down, but I would respond saying that the manual actually supplies details that necessitate OoT as the IW when it could easily have left those details out in favour of a mention of Ganon.

Edited by LionHarted, 13 May 2008 - 08:33 AM.


#138 Raien

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 12:45 PM

I am relying on creator placements of the game to establish a context in which assumptions can then be made to accommodate it.


Correction: you are relying on two 10-year-old creator placements that do not account for the development of subsequent Zelda games and thus do not account for the absence of evidence supporting those creator placements in subsequent Zelda games.

If a politician calls reform, and we then see no evidence of reform, it would be silly to assume the reform has taken place.

#139 Jumbie

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 01:36 PM

TP occurs, OOT Ganondorf on child timeline dies, never enters the SR, never becomes the king of anything, or even the "real" Ganon. So it is as if nothing has even happened yet.

Heh, how wrong you are! Did you ever notice he's called Great Demon King in TP as usual, and that he does transform into pig form Ganon?
Moreover, it should be noted that with his fiery spirit form, TP's Ganon is the most demonic Ganon we ever have seen. The fiery spirit is a reference to his depiction in LoZ artwork and his fiery bat form in ALttP. ...But I'm sure you'll find some way to deny that, too.

The people who seal Ganon in the IW were all Hylian men.

Ridiculous. Nowhere is that stated, nowhere is that depicted. A developer has stated the town names of AoL are the names of the Seal War sages. It's been that way when OoT came out, and there's still no reason for this to have changed silently.

I think that throughout this entire debate, Lex's theories are more or less justified. The only thing that bothers me is defeating TWW's entire purpose by assuming there'll be a new Hyrule. But we've been over that enough, only new evidence in TWW could settle that. And if not in-game, then in the TWW Zelda Box (a Japanese guide book full to bursting with developer statements).

#140 NM87

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 02:24 PM

Why would he if he is sealed there by the Four Sword, which is my theory?


Your theory is that the seal of the FS actually sends people to the SR? Which means Vaati was also sealed in the SR in MC and FS. This theory isn’t a bad theory, and we certainly cannot criticize it since you openly admit it as a theory, much like I admit the idea of Ganon being revived from the Trident is a theory. Although, the difference here is that there is substantial evidence for the latter, unlike your theory where the only piece of evidence for the FS sealing Ganon in the SR is in a remake of ALTTP. There is no precedent of the FS going to the SR and no supporting evidence of the FS seal trapping its captives in the SR, that is a total assumption.

It doesn't say he reentered the Sacred Realm, or rediscovered the entrance; it says he "rediscovered" the realm after the location was lost. I simply view it as something more akin to Columbus rediscovering America, with the location being lost during the flood.


No, that isn’t true, Ganondorf and his thieves opened the way to the SR in the passage “That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by a certain group of thieves.” This of course references events in the original Hyrule where the Goddesses left the land and left behind a symbol of their power. If that land was “washed away”, how does this new Ganon find his way into the SR, who’s entrance has been washed away with the land of old?

As for a "new Hyrule," I'm actually quite undecided as to what such a thing would actually entail. It could entail the Deku Tree creating a new land mass from the old mountains of Hyrule. It could entail the Deku Tree simply raising the old landmass of Hyrule, or removing the water. It's unlikely that it's a new land that is found for reasons already stated by others about the similarities between the two.


No, I abandoned the Deku Tree argument long ago. Not because it isn’t possible but because Hyrule wasn’t just simply drowned, it was washed away, or destroyed, which was the King’s wish.

I argue that no one in ALttP ever mentions the OoT Ganon. The new Ganon is the threat, and the old Ganon isn't even remembered (see FSA).


Even though the entire story in ALTTP revolves around him(in your theory)? The description given by each maiden is that of the IW Ganon, not anyone else no matter which way you look at this. Of course the old Ganon is remembered because this is his story, not the “new” Ganon’s.

OOT Ganondorf on child timeline dies, never enters the SR, never becomes the king of anything, or even the "real" Ganon.


I'd ask you to prove the two bolded points, as neither of them have been established.

The fact that he has the Triforce suffices to say that he did enter the Sacred Realm and did touch the Triforce, in the absence of any alternate creator/game-posed explanation, which, there is none.

Either that or someone else did, or he got it by a deus ex machina, neither of which is properly established or adequately explained. "Divine prank" does not suffice to establish a deus ex machina, since the common usage of the phrase is to refer to some unfortunate happening.


Hopes to, but never enters the SR:

“He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm. He was known as a demon thief, an evil-magic wielder renowned for his ruthlessness... But he was blind... In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.”

Find me the mention of the word “Triforce” in TP.

The IW self-places itself while the Triforce "is still hidden" in the Sacred Realm, with the hiding of the Triforce taking place at creation.

So, essentially, you're more or less guilty yourself of what you're accusing me of.

Was the Sacred Realm not absent from the Sacred Realm in TP? If so, can you prove it? Otherwise, how can the Triforce have never left the Sacred Realm until the IW after being hidden there by the gods at creation? Aren't you blatantly disregarding stated progressions of events?


Do Ganondorf, Link and Zelda obtain the Triforces of Power, Courage, and Wisdom respectively, or do they merely receive the power of their respective Goddesses? Twilight Princess never states that they obtain the Triforces, so the latter is correct. You see, the Triforce and the entrance to the SR is still unknown.

So, since OoT is the IW, since TWW prevents Adult OoT from directly flowing into ALttP, and since FSA gives us all the ingredients needed for ALttP that were destroyed in TWW, I would say that it's quite possible for OoT to be the IW without directly relating to ALttP.


If this is supposedly the intentions of the developers to ret-con the back-story to ALTTP into a telling of complete origins, while the events in-between all coincidently leave everything as it was originally meant to be in time of ALTTP, it is, I repeat ridiculous. The developers create three or four games to ret-con the back-story to ALTTP (just to make clear the decline of the Hylian people, Ganon acquiring the whole Triforce, nature of the Trident, and relation of the sages to wise men) while a ret-con of OOT not being the IW produces the same effect with less molding of the evidence? Separating the IW from OOT and having it as its own event in another reality as I have placed it is a hell of a lot easier and sensible then doing everything you claim they are trying to achieve.

Edited by NM87, 14 May 2008 - 01:13 AM.


#141 Showsni

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:49 PM

Ridiculous. Nowhere is that stated, nowhere is that depicted.


Posted Image


#142 Jumbie

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 07:52 PM

Where's the problem with this picture? I can clearly see two Hylians, a Sheikah, a Gerudo, a Goron, a Zora, and a Kokiri. Check again!

#143 Ize

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 04:27 AM

Lionharted, you accept retcons like the changing of the sage's races, the separation of ALttP's backstory from the actual game (pretty far-feched) and the inclusion of the palace of the four sword in a remake. Yet, it would be simpler to only retcon the idea that before the IW the triforce hadn't been touched. If we accept only this change, ten we can place the IW anytime, and not deal with a lot of other retcons (like the sage's races for example).

Where's the problem with this picture? I can clearly see two Hylians, a Sheikah, a Gerudo, a Goron, a Zora, and a Kokiri. Check again!


Really? They all have the same (or very similar) height (if you claim some are kneeling or something, their arms have the same leingth, so they have similar builds) hich means that there is no kokiri there, no gorons for that matter (and their heads are wider, we see no such thing there).
And yeah, maybe you are being sarcastic, but perhaps someone else believes that, so there, I went and did it.

#144 Raien

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 06:24 AM

Gorons have much bigger arms/hands than Hylians, yet the Sages all have the same size arms/hands. Likewise, I believe Ruto has fins on her arms? Point made.

But quite frankly, how much can we trust that artwork as a literal depiction of the IW? After all, the pyramid seal that held Ganon was quite clearly symbolic because he couldn't leave the Sacred Realm even before the seal was cast (according to the original plot).

#145 Hero of Legend

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:46 AM

But also according to the original plot, 'Ganon's evil power was closing in on the castle' and the knights obviously fought an army of his servants. Given this, it is likely that when the maiden says Ganon couldn't find his way back, she meant up until the point of the IW, after which he couldn't escape because of the seal.

As for the artwork, well, whatever the case may have been, it has obviously been made obsolete by now. OoT was made as the IW, yet not all Sages were men, and so it qualifies as evidence no longer. Even if Nintendo decides to make a new IW, more consistent with the original story, it's still a retcon of a retcon and we won't know anything about it until it is done.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 May 2008 - 09:54 AM.


#146 Jumbie

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:04 AM

All I'm saying is if one doesn't interpret the picture with inappropriate strictness, it is very well possible to see the OoT sages depicted in it, without having to scream "Inconsistency!".
No one must care whether the arms are all muscly and white - the only thing that matters is the illustration shows seven humanoid figures cloaked out of recognition.
Btw, Ruto's fins are on the outward side of her arm, so they would be covered from sight by her actual arm.

But of course, what Hero of Legend said outweighs all that: the picture has been inconsistent with OoT already when it was certainly intended to depict the OoT sages. So what? Those differences are no worse than geographic differences, for example.

Edited by Jumbie, 14 May 2008 - 11:05 AM.


#147 Raien

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:31 PM

But also according to the original plot, 'Ganon's evil power was closing in on the castle' and the knights obviously fought an army of his servants. Given this, it is likely that when the maiden says Ganon couldn't find his way back, she meant up until the point of the IW, after which he couldn't escape because of the seal.


That doesn't make sense. If Ganon couldn't escape the Dark World because of the seal, the maiden would say "Thank goodness the seal prevented him from returning to Hyrule." and not "Thank goodness he couldn't find his way out again." But the clearest piece of evidence that supports my point is that when Agahnim broke the Sages' seal, Ganon was still trapped inside the Dark World. He had to create his own portal to Hyrule in order to leave the Dark World, and it was in that window of time when the portal was under construction that Link had to rescue the maidens and defeat Ganon.

I can understand why you would disapprove of this plot, because it would mean Ganon's minions can leave the Dark World but Ganon himself cannot. Given that the minions were ultimately created by the Triforce's power, I believe it is contact with the fabric of the Dark World that allows evil to escape and manifest in Hyrule (the translation of ALTTP's manual refers to it as a mist, I believe).

#148 Hero of Legend

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:58 PM

Oh yeah; you're right. That could work.

However, in the translated manual, one of the lines and comments read:

"Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

Important: The Japanese manual says that the battle was waged with 悪しき者 ("ashikimono") = bad person. It might be said that this term refers to only Ganon."

We clearly see an army fighting the Knights in the artwork, but Ganon seemingly was there in some form.

Your idea definitelly makes sense, though. There are no portals in the Dark World, after all.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 May 2008 - 03:04 PM.


#149 Raien

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 03:12 PM

I think the reference to "battle with the evil one" might be symbolic, because rulers generally act as the figureheads for their armies. It could be said that Henry Tudor fought Richard of York, but it doesn't mean they actually met each other on the battlefield and fought with swords.

#150 CID Farwin

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:14 AM

I wasn't stating facts, I was merely agreeing with what Ize was talking about. How Ganon escaped the SR in WW is unknown, but what we were both saying is how killing the sages seems to weaken the seal, although in ALTTP he can not kill the maidens because he needs their power to weaken the seal. Understand that if he kills the maidens he cannot break the seal, but he has no problem killing sages in WW since he doesn't need their power to break the seal. Do you see the comparison we were making? That is why it appears to be a different seal with different "rules".

ALTTP states that Ganon is trapped in the SR because the king commanded the seven wise men to seal off the entrance to the SR, in which no mention of Ganon being sealed. In OOT, they aren't merely sealing of the SR, but they are sealing Ganondorf as well.

The wise men may very well be sages, but that doesn't mean they are the OOT sages. ALTTP depicts the wise men/sages as human men, while OOT sages are a diverse group of lifeforms.

Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man

=/=

Man-Woman-Woman-Kokiri-Goron-Zora-Gerudo


I'm sorry, I cannot let this stand. I wasn't going to enter this argument in the first place because it's so insanely stupid and incredibly wrong on so many points, but anyway...

killing the sages seems to weaken the seal, although in ALTTP he can not kill the maidens because he needs their power to weaken the seal. Understand that if he kills the maidens he cannot break the seal, but he has no problem killing sages in WW since he doesn't need their power to break the seal. Do you see the comparison we were making? That is why it appears to be a different seal with different "rules".

Wrong wrong WRONG! Aghanim very much so kills the maidens in ALttP. They are sacrificed, according to the Japanese.

ALTTP states that Ganon is trapped in the SR because the king commanded the seven wise men to seal off the entrance to the SR, in which no mention of Ganon being sealed. In OOT, they aren't merely sealing of the SR, but they are sealing Ganondorf as well.

As I recall, both instances have him sealed within the Sacred Realm. OoT especially doesn't just shove Ganon in the Sacred Realm and lock the door, they seal him within. The Sacred Realm was sealed centuries earlier by the builders of the ToT.

The wise men may very well be sages, but that doesn't mean they are the OOT sages. ALTTP depicts the wise men/sages as human men, while OOT sages are a diverse group of lifeforms.

Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man-Man

=/=

Man-Woman-Woman-Kokiri-Goron-Zora-Gerudo

So exactly which sages are they? there's only seven I know of during ALttP/OoT/ALttP remake. And I guess the ALttP remake's deliberate change of 'wise man' to 'sage' was meaningless too, huh?(hint: the Japanese word is the same)

Alright; here's my one biggest pet peeve in Zelda Theorizing: If you have EVER discounted arguments against OoT and IW to favor the connection, then you cannot use them now. If they were irrelevant 10 years ago, then they're irrelevant now. they don't somehow get more credence by TP and TWW; the only reasons why OoT should not be the IW now as opposed to 10 years ago are TP and TWW (assuming it was in the first place.) And anyway, all that those prove is that (at the current time) ALttP can't go after either, not that OoT isn't the IW. Nintendo has to actually do something with ALttP in order for that to be retconned.

Oh yeah; you're right. That could work.

However, in the translated manual, one of the lines and comments read:

"Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

Important: The Japanese manual says that the battle was waged with 悪しき者 ("ashikimono") = bad person. It might be said that this term refers to only Ganon."

We clearly see an army fighting the Knights in the artwork, but Ganon seemingly was there in some form.

See, some people (not saying you HoL, but some people) use that as "ZOMG A DIFFERENCE," (the whole knights thing) but with OoT, one knight against a bad person, works. There is no plural in Japanese. ;)

Edited by CID Farwin, 15 May 2008 - 12:24 AM.





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