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On the nature of Hylianness


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#1 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:28 AM

In one European text version of TWW, the Helmaroc King is said to abduct blonde girls instead of long-eared ones. It might therefore be that the Japanese text talks about something else than long ears - and we cannot check.


It's probably wrong, because Maggie is not blonde.

None of you got what I meant with AoL, right? AoL happens long after ALttP, but look at the ears of all the NPCs in the game: long pointed ears!


I think we can safely the say the concept of long ears was developed before the existence/decline of the Hylian race. This means that developers now will be more considerate of the long ears than the developers did with games prior to OoT.

And then, here's also what you requested earlier.


That's very interesting because it shows a stretch of mountains behind Mount Crenel, which at least disproves the idea that Hyrule was an island expanding after the Great Flood.

#2 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:48 AM

It's probably wrong, because Maggie is not blonde.


That may be true, but it's also true that she and a Moblin shared a romance, something that is not true for Millie.

If the line about the blonde hair is the actual line from the Japanese, it might have been edited by NoA because of this "inconsistency," however.

I think we can safely the say the concept of long ears was developed before the existence/decline of the Hylian race. This means that developers now will be more considerate of the long ears than the developers did with games prior to OoT.


The only game that extensively shows and/or references non-Hylian humans is TP.

That's very interesting because it shows a stretch of mountains behind Mount Crenel, which at least disproves the idea that Hyrule was an island expanding after the Great Flood.


No it doesn't, as most people who assert that Hyrule was an expansion of many of the islands of the Great Sea also say that there are more mountains in the Mt. Crenel/Death Mountain range. Myself in particular, as this is apparent from the LoZ/AoL map as well.

Yes, especially when they aren't visible on most NPCs. How is that as deliberate as having them stick through hair and making sure they can be seen on every person?


They aren't visible on many NPCs in AoL, either, so this is really a moot point.

You were already proven wrong about Shad's line (by someone who translated it in the Japanese version!), not even responding to that.


No, I really wasn't. They're still referenced exclusively in past tense.

I'm pretty sure Jumbie was the one who said that, somewhere in the translation topic. It's something about a family of knights, it's the same in FSA and ALttP's manual, but I think different in ALttP itself or something (not sure if that's always the case).


I think it's the other way around, actually: "family of knights" definitely appears in the Japanese translation guide for ALttP.

To CID: the Swiftblades look like the Hero of Men from TMC, and also pass down the hero's sword techniques. ;)

Edited by LionHarted, 28 March 2008 - 07:56 AM.


#3 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:58 AM

The only game that extensively shows and/or references non-Hylian humans is TP.


But the first game to actively differentiate between long and short-eared Hylian descendants was TWW.

No, I really wasn't. They're still referenced exclusively in past tense.


As has been said many times, your ancestors don't have to be of another race/nationality to be referred to in the third person or past tense. It is common practice amongst historians to do that.

#4 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:45 AM

But the first game to actively differentiate between long and short-eared Hylian descendants was TWW.


The first game to actively differentiate between long and short-eared HUMANS was actually ALttP, in the manual. I should say the first game to actively establish long ears as a trait of the Hylian race is ALttP.

As has been said many times, your ancestors don't have to be of another race/nationality to be referred to in the third person or past tense.


I never said Shad didn't have Hylian ancestors. I in fact said he is a descendant of Hylians, but also made the distinction that this doesn't necessarily mean he exists during the age of the Hylians.

#5 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 09:14 AM

The first game to actively differentiate between long and short-eared HUMANS was actually ALttP, in the manual. I should say the first game to actively establish long ears as a trait of the Hylian race is ALttP.


ALTTP's manual told us that the Hylians had long ears to hear the voices of the gods, and that the people in ALTTP are descended from those Hylians. At no point is it ever said that the decline of the Hylian race gave their descendants short ears. That distinction only came about in TWW, when Ganondorf knew that Zelda would have long ears due to the strength of the blood of the Hylian Royal Family.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 09:14 AM.


#6 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 09:25 AM

ALTTP's manual told us that the Hylians had long ears to hear the voices of the gods, and that the people in ALTTP are descended from those Hylians. At no point is it ever said that the decline of the Hylian race gave their descendants short ears. That distinction only came about in TWW, when Ganondorf knew that Zelda would have long ears due to the strength of the blood of the Hylian Royal Family.


Well, given the circumstances of the flood it's entirely possible that even the royal family blood was muddled considerably. That Tetra is far from fair-skinned seems to go along with this.

The distinction in TWW doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with the decline of a trait, either, since we know that many humans exist on the Great Sea who are definitely not Hylian, otherwise the decline of the trait could never have taken place anyway. So, really, in order for the decline of long ears to have taken place, we must assume that non-Hylian humans exist on the Great Sea, in which case we can't necessarily determine short-eared Hylian descendants from short-eared non-Hylian humans.

This was my mistake in making that argument in the first place. Enough TWW characters have long ears that we can't be certain that there even is a considerable decline.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 March 2008 - 09:27 AM.


#7 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 09:56 AM

Well, given the circumstances of the flood it's entirely possible that even the royal family blood was muddled considerably. That Tetra is far from fair-skinned seems to go along with this.


That doesn't work because Zelda did have long ears, which proves that Ganondorf was right about the strength of the Hylian bloodline.

The distinction in TWW doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with the decline of a trait, either, since we know that many humans exist on the Great Sea who are definitely not Hylian, otherwise the decline of the trait could never have taken place anyway. So, really, in order for the decline of long ears to have taken place, we must assume that non-Hylian humans exist on the Great Sea, in which case we can't necessarily determine short-eared Hylian descendants from short-eared non-Hylian humans.


It's a complete assumption that anyone on the Great Sea in TWW is not a Hylian descendant.
It's a complete assumption that the long ears declined because the Hylians were mixing with non-Hylians.
In fact, it's a complete assumption that the Ordonians in TP are not Hylian descendants themselves.

This was my mistake in making that argument in the first place. Enough TWW characters have long ears that we can't be certain that there even is a considerable decline.


In which case the long ears would not be a good process of elimination to find Princess Zelda. The fact is that the decline of the long ears is a plot point by which Ganondorf finding Zelda relied upon. To say it didn't happen defeats that plot point.

Furthermore, the TWW art style does not pronounce the ears as much as the OoT/TP art style. Take this piece of TMC artwork as an example:

Posted Image

As one can see, Link's ears are pointed but nowhere near as long as depicted in OoT/TP. So how can we determine whether other characters in TWW have long ears or short ears? With difficulty, which is why we have the "Ganondorf-finding-Zelda" plot point to make that distinction for us.

#8 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 10:05 AM

That doesn't work because Zelda did have long ears, which proves that Ganondorf was right about the strength of the Hylian bloodline.


It proves that Ganondorf knows that Zelda is a descendant of Hylians and nothing more.

It's a complete assumption that anyone on the Great Sea in TWW is not a Hylian descendant.
It's a complete assumption that the long ears declined because the Hylians were mixing with non-Hylians.
In fact, it's a complete assumption that the Ordonians in TP are not Hylian descendants themselves.


The Hylian traits can't decline if there aren't non-Hylians mixing the blood. There are Gorons, Ritos, Koroks/Kokiri, a number of monsters, etc., so we know non-Hylians survived the flood. This defeats your first and second points. Even if Ordonians are Hylian descendants, they must also be descendants of non-Hylians.

In which case the long ears would not be a good process of elimination to find Princess Zelda.


He knows Zelda is a descendant of Hylians. That's reason enough.

Furthermore, the TWW art style does not pronounce the ears as much as the OoT/TP art style.


Moot, since I'm not arguing anything about the pronouncement of ears; just that the majority of known Hylian descendants have long ears.

Your point about Ganondorf capturing only girls with long ears is moot also given the fact that all human girls in the game who are remotely close to Tetra's age are captured.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 March 2008 - 10:06 AM.


#9 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 01:18 PM

The Hylian traits can't decline if there aren't non-Hylians mixing the blood. There are Gorons, Ritos, Koroks/Kokiri, a number of monsters, etc., so we know non-Hylians survived the flood. This defeats your first and second points. Even if Ordonians are Hylian descendants, they must also be descendants of non-Hylians.


It's an assumption that the Hylian bloodline declined because of the gene pool, just like it's an assumption that any sort of scientific evolution has taken place within the Zelda series (referring to other examples). The ability to hear the voices of the gods is a magical property, and thus any transformation/decline will also be magical. What causes the decline? I think it's tied to the land of Hyrule; those who live in Hyrule proper share the gods' blessings whereas those who live outside of it (or above it, in the case of the Great Flood) lose their blessing.

He knows Zelda is a descendant of Hylians. That's reason enough.


But you said that there's lots of long-eared people on the Great Sea, so how would targeting the long ears lead Ganondorf to Zelda? It's like getting the Helmaroc King to kidnap anyone with a nose; it's not going to be something that would distinguish Zelda from anyone else.

Moot, since I'm not arguing anything about the pronouncement of ears; just that the majority of known Hylian descendants have long ears.


My argument is that you are wrong about the majority of people in TWW having long ears; the ear size of characters is inconsistent with that of other games because of the change in art style and therefore it's unreliable to determine who has long ears and who doesn't.

Your point about Ganondorf capturing only girls with long ears is moot also given the fact that all human girls in the game who are remotely close to Tetra's age are captured.


You're trying to substitute a stated plot point with your own. The Helmaroc King was not targeting all girls within a certain age, he was targeting all girls with long ears. And anyway, Aryll was much younger than the other girls, so clearly there isn't a specific age bracket that the Helmaroc King is targeting.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 03:01 PM.


#10 Mourngriever

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 01:54 PM

Hylian Knights are in OOS. But isn't that after ALTTP?

#11 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 03:28 PM

It's an assumption that the Hylian bloodline declined because of the gene pool


No, it's not.

Think about what you're saying for a second. How does a bloodline decline besides through blood-mixing, my friend?

The ability to hear the voices of the gods is a magical property


Prove it. It's tied to a physical trait.

I think it's tied to the land of Hyrule; those who live in Hyrule proper share the gods' blessings whereas those who live outside of it (or above it, in the case of the Great Flood) lose their blessing.


There's no precedent for this.

But you said that there's lots of long-eared people on the Great Sea, so how would targeting the long ears lead Ganondorf to Zelda?


I think you're putting too much on the "long ears" and not understanding that Quill (yes, a secondary source) is more than likely speaking poetically about a certain group of people (i.e., descendants of Hylians/Hylians/whichever)

#12 Arturo

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 04:10 PM

No, it's not.

Think about what you're saying for a second. How does a bloodline decline besides through blood-mixing, my friend?

Magic?

The ability to hear the voices of the gods is a magical property


Prove it. It's tied to a physical trait.

ALttP might say so, but OoT actually contradicts that. Hylians don't hear the voices of the gods during OoT, but in the TWW backstory, when they supposedly aren't Hylians, they are somehow told by the gods to flee.

I think it's tied to the land of Hyrule; those who live in Hyrule proper share the gods' blessings whereas those who live outside of it (or above it, in the case of the Great Flood) lose their blessing.


There's no precedent for this.

There is:

When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.

Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he abandoned Hyrule. Now go and find a precedence for "genetic pool" in Hyrule.

But you said that there's lots of long-eared people on the Great Sea, so how would targeting the long ears lead Ganondorf to Zelda?


I think you're putting too much on the "long ears" and not understanding that Quill (yes, a secondary source) is more than likely speaking poetically about a certain group of people (i.e., descendants of Hylians/Hylians/whichever)

There's nothing more poetic than big ears, it seems...

I can't imagine any other common caracteristic of the girls. It's not hair colour (Maggy has brwon hair), age (Aryll is much younger), skin (Tetra looks like the anti-Zelda)... the only similarities is that they are girls and they have pointy ears. If you choose not to see, you'll never see...

#13 CID Farwin

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 04:51 PM

I'm pretty sure Jumbie was the one who said that, somewhere in the translation topic. It's something about a family of knights, it's the same in FSA and ALttP's manual, but I think different in ALttP itself or something (not sure if that's always the case).

Maybe, but I'm arguing from here.

Looking through it again, I think a few people here could do with a look.

the Swiftblades look like the Hero of Men from TMC, and also pass down the hero's sword techniques.

:o I never noticed that!

#14 Fyxe

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 05:34 PM

Did someone pick out the Outset Island pot woman as an example of non-pointy ears? Well, just to refute/confuse the issue.

Posted Image

#15 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 05:38 PM

Think about what you're saying for a second. How does a bloodline decline besides through blood-mixing, my friend?


You need to take into account that the Hylian race did not evolve from the amoeba over millions of years like real humans did, and neither was their ability to hear the voices of the gods a product of genetic development. Both the Hylians and their ability were created by the gods; by magic. As a result, the nature of the Hylian race needs to be put into a religious/mythological context, not a scientific context.

The long ears are the gods' gift to the Hylians, as is the prosperity that the gods bring to the land of Hyrule. The kingdom and people are blessed by the magic of the gods, and that sources their magical ability.

Prove it. It's tied to a physical trait.


Magic makes the physical ability possible, not vice versa.

There's no precedent for this.


Yes, there is. Hyrule is the land blessed by the gods, so says Ganondorf in TWW. The Hylians are blessed with the ability to hear the gods, so say other sources. The people's ties to Hyrule and the gods is the magic that sources their ability. To be disconnected from that magic would cause their ability to decline. I reckon Zelda becomes Tetra after the destruction of Hyrule because her ties to the kingdom have been disconnected.

I think you're putting too much on the "long ears" and not understanding that Quill (yes, a secondary source) is more than likely speaking poetically about a certain group of people (i.e., descendants of Hylians/Hylians/whichever)


That doesn't matter. Let's go with your view for a moment. Ganon was looking for Hylian descendants, knowing that Zelda would be one of them. In order to distinguish the Hylian descendants, he targeted the long ears. But in order for this process to be effective, Ganondorf would have to know that the number of long-eared people were vastly outnumbered by the number of short-eared people. Otherwise, he might as well just kidnap everyone on the Great Sea for all the good it would do him.

The evidence is clear, the number of people with long ears is limited to a select few, which Ganon was able to target to find Zelda. Since we can deduce that the majority of people on the Great Sea are the descendants of Hylians who the gods led to the mountains, this tells us that most Hylian descendants have short ears. Simple as that.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 05:42 PM.


#16 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 06:37 PM

The long ears are the gods' gift to the Hylians, as is the prosperity that the gods bring to the land of Hyrule. The kingdom and people are blessed by the magic of the gods, and that sources their magical ability.


Okay.

In the real world, blessings of God need not be anything of a mystical nature at all. They can be ordinary blessings like good health, physical prowess, courage, fortitude, or wisdom. Clearly in Zelda's universe they CAN be, but that doesn't mean that every time blessings of the gods are referenced magic is involved.

Yes, there is. Hyrule is the land blessed by the gods, so says Ganondorf in TWW.


I thought he was talking about the fact that it wasn't a desert.

But in order for this process to be effective, Ganondorf would have to know that the number of long-eared people were vastly outnumbered by the number of short-eared people.


No, not really. If all he has to go by is that she's a female descended from Hylians, that's still better than "go kidnap all the girls throughout the Great Sea."

#17 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 06:55 PM

In the real world, blessings of God need not be anything of a mystical nature at all. They can be ordinary blessings like good health, physical prowess, courage, fortitude, or wisdom. Clearly in Zelda's universe they CAN be, but that doesn't mean that every time blessings of the gods are referenced magic is involved.


But we're not referring to good health, physical prowess, courage, fortitude or wisdom. We're referring to long ears, which give people the ability to hear the voices of the gods. Under any context, this is magical.

I thought he was talking about the fact that it wasn't a desert.


He differentiates the land of Hyrule from the Gerudo Desert.

No, not really. If all he has to go by is that she's a female descended from Hylians, that's still better than "go kidnap all the girls throughout the Great Sea."


What the hell are you arguing? In order to apply the process of elimination, Ganondorf must have chosen a physical trait that only a select few people possess. If that physical trait is the long ears, then that by all logic and common sense would tell us that only a select few people possess long ears. The method Ganondorf used would be useless otherwise.

#18 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:21 PM

But we're not referring to good health, physical prowess, courage, fortitude or wisdom. We're referring to long ears, which give people the ability to hear the voices of the gods. Under any context, this is magical.


The ability to hear the voices of the gods is a magical ability present in those who are of Hylian blood.

Now then, explain to me why this magical ability should increase or diminish for any reason other than the racial blood mixture of the individual.

He differentiates the land of Hyrule from the Gerudo Desert.


Right. One's a dry desert full of death and the other is a prosperous land.

In order to apply the process of elimination, Ganondorf must have chosen a physical trait that only a select few people possess. If that physical trait is the long ears, then that by all logic and common sense would tell us that only a select few people possess long ears.


My point is that he could have gone for all girls, he could have gone for all human girls, or he could have gone for all human girls with long ears. Which of these is the most limited category?

#19 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:43 PM

The ability to hear the voices of the gods is a magical ability present in those who are of Hylian blood.


Correct, which makes this blessing from the gods (the creators of the Hylians) magical.

Now then, explain to me why this magical ability should increase or diminish for any reason other than the racial blood mixture of the individual.


As I said, magic controls the physical trait, which means that in order for the physical trait to decline, the magic must also be declining. What causes that magic to decline? Well, I raised one possibility with the borders of Hyrule earlier, although with consideration, I think it's more likely that the decline is naturally occurring over time. I don't think it has ever been suggested that the kingdom of Hyrule has ever been as prosperous as the "golden age" of the Hylians. The Hylians didn't just have the ears, but many other magical skills, or so says the ALTTP manual.

Right. One's a dry desert full of death and the other is a prosperous land.


One has been blessed by the gods, and the other has been cursed by the gods.

My point is that he could have gone for all girls, he could have gone for all human girls, or he could have gone for all human girls with long ears. Which of these is the most limited category?


Obviously human girls with long ears, because the long ears is the sign that the Hylian blood is strong in them. The question is how limited that category is. I'm making the point that if Quill noticed the Helmaroc King was capturing girls with long ears from the minute sample of four that it had already attacked, then quite obviously the trait must be visible enough to distinguish from all other potential victims. Think about it, if long ears were as common on the Great Sea as you suggest, then why did Quill make a point of noticing them over other traits? To use an old example, if everyone has a nose, then how would Quill notice that particular characteristic? Otherwise Quill would have just said "young girls".

#20 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:50 PM

Your other argument can be defeated by saying that just because the gods bless something does not even imply magic, since gods have ties to nature.

Obviously human girls with long ears, because the long ears is the sign that the Hylian blood is strong in them.


Okay.

That doesn't mean human girls with long ears are the least plentiful group of humans; it's just a more specific group than all humans.

#21 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 07:57 PM

Your other argument can be defeated by saying that just because the gods bless something does not even imply magic, since gods have ties to nature.


Nature has a magic source too. See the Great Deku Tree, Jabu Jabu, etc.

That doesn't mean human girls with long ears are the least plentiful group of humans; it's just a more specific group than all humans.


Alright, so let's say that in Scenario A, there are 50 girls with long ears and 10 girls with short ears.
Now let's say that in Scenario B, there are 10 girls with long ears and 50 girls with short ears.

Ganondorf decided that the long ears were a suitable trait to apply the process of elimination, so in which scenario would it be easier for Ganondorf to eliminate Zelda?

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 07:58 PM.


#22 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:03 PM

Nature has a magic source too. See the Great Deku Tree, Jabu Jabu, etc.


Your point is? Hyrule may be a prosperous land because it's blessed by gods and magic, but the implications of that end as far as the games are concerned ends with the differences between it and the desert.

Alright, so let's say that in Scenario A, there are 50 girls with long ears and 10 girls with short ears.
Now let's say that in Scenario B, there are 10 girls with long ears and 50 girls with short ears.

Ganondorf decided that the long ears were a suitable trait to apply the process of elimination, so in which scenario would it be easier for Ganondorf to eliminate Zelda?


Doesn't matter. In both cases limiting your search to long ears will reduce the pool of possibilities and yield a higher success rate.

#23 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:15 PM

Your point is? Hyrule may be a prosperous land because it's blessed by gods and magic, but the implications of that end as far as the games are concerned ends with the differences between it and the desert.


My point is that what affects the land affects the people. The Hylians were the chosen people of the gods, and they were also chosen to live in Hyrule, the land that was blessed by the gods with prosperity. The Gerudo were not the chosen people of the gods, and they were not chosen to live in Hyrule. The Gerudo and their desert do not possess the magic of the gods.

And it's an interesting thing that no villain has ever been shown to come from within Hyrule; it's always presented in the context of an invasion. I get the impression that Ganondorf, like Dracula, feels that the gods don't love him and he thus turns to Darkness in order to take power from them.

Doesn't matter. In both cases limiting your search to long ears will reduce the pool of possibilities and yield a higher success rate.


And then how would Quill distinguish the long ears as the connection between the kidnapped girls? If the number of girls with long ears were as numerous as you suggest, then Quill would not have made that connection. Take this real world example; if four blonde girls were kidnapped, would you come to the conclusion that they were kidnapped because they were blonde?

In order for a trait to be particularly distinguishable from other traits, it has to be a rarity. Quill noticed that all four girls had long ears because he doesn't see long ears very often, and that was how he was able to discover the connection.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 08:16 PM.


#24 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:40 PM

The Hylians were the chosen people of the gods, and they were also chosen to live in Hyrule, the land that was blessed by the gods with prosperity. The Gerudo were not the chosen people of the gods, and they were not chosen to live in Hyrule. The Gerudo and their desert do not possess the magic of the gods.


Ever wonder whether it's the other way around, that Hyrule is blessed because Hylians live there?

And it's an interesting thing that no villain has ever been shown to come from within Hyrule; it's always presented in the context of an invasion.


No major villain, maybe, but I could have sworn Hyrule's people were possessed by greed during the prolonged wars...

And then how would Quill distinguish the long ears as the connection between the kidnapped girls?


Rumors?

Quill noticed that all four girls had long ears because he doesn't see long ears very often, and that was how he was able to discover the connection.


Oh, but he sees long ears all the time, as Rito have them, too.

#25 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 09:45 PM

Ever wonder whether it's the other way around, that Hyrule is blessed because Hylians live there?


I'm not saying one is blessed because of the other. I'm saying that both land and people are blessed equally.

No major villain, maybe, but I could have sworn Hyrule's people were possessed by greed during the prolonged wars...


I'm not saying that evil did not exist in Hyrule; it's part of free will. My point is that there is a lot of darkness beyond Hyrule's borders, and it gives me the impression of a holy ground and an unholy wilderness surrounding it.

Rumors?


Actually, yes it was rumours. And that even further supports my point, because where Quill had four different girls to make the connection, other people only had at least the two girls from Windfall Island. It must be a rarity if they distinguish two girls by their long ears.

Oh, but he sees long ears all the time, as Rito have them, too.


But obviously we're talking about human girls with long ears; stop trying to dodge the point. And anyway, it's not only Quill but other people who noticed the long ears. You proved that point yourself.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 09:46 PM.


#26 Impossible

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 10:37 PM

No it doesn't, as most people who assert that Hyrule was an expansion of many of the islands of the Great Sea also say that there are more mountains in the Mt. Crenel/Death Mountain range. Myself in particular, as this is apparent from the LoZ/AoL map as well.


You at least have to discount FSA's map as evidence, then. If backgrounds are that damn important.

Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he abandoned Hyrule. Now go and find a precedence for "genetic pool" in Hyrule.


Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he went back to before receiving it, don't confuse the issue. He "abandoned" the timeline.

I can't even tell what the point of this argument is. Is LH trying to say that TWW's people are Hylian, or that they have long ears but are just Hylian descendants? And either way, what does it prove?

#27 Raien

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 10:52 PM

I can't even tell what the point of this argument is. Is LH trying to say that TWW's people are Hylian, or that they have long ears but are just Hylian descendants? And either way, what does it prove?


I'm confused myself, tbh. Let's see if I can sort it out.

-TMC's people have long ears, and we (Impossible and myself) assert that these people are Hylians, thus supporting a pre-OoT placement for TMC.
-Lex argues that the people of ALTTP have long ears too, thus disproving that these people must be Hylians.
-I asserted the possibility that the decline of the long ears with the Hylian bloodline did not exist until TWW, where it was made a plot point. It's entirely possible that what ALTTP shows is no longer accurate.
-Lex argues that all short-eared people in Hyrule are descended from non-Hylians, and therefore not evidence of a decline in TWW.
-My argument is that the majority of people must be Hylian descendants, because they were led to safety by the gods.
-Lex argues that there are lots of long-eared humans in TWW anyway, so there's still no evidence of a decline.
-My argument stands that in order for anyone, whether they be Ganondorf or the islanders, to distinguish girls with long ears, it has to be a rarity among the islanders.

And that's where it currently stands, I think.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 March 2008 - 10:57 PM.


#28 Impossible

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 11:52 PM

And now it can go on for another 20 posts with arguments over semantics and irrelevant points.

Since both TWW and ALttP have people without long ears or with less long/pointed ears, and TMC doesn't, I'd say there's nothing we can get from it. The point is that it doesn't prevent TMC from being before OoT.

#29 LionHarted

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 11:52 PM

Impossible: TMC has as many characters without decidedly long ears as ALttP does.

I'm not saying that evil did not exist in Hyrule; it's part of free will. My point is that there is a lot of darkness beyond Hyrule's borders, and it gives me the impression of a holy ground and an unholy wilderness surrounding it.


Perhaps. We also have Holodrum and Labrynna, and there is plenty of evidence of godly intervention in other regions like the Ocean King's domain, et cetera.

But obviously we're talking about human girls with long ears...


As opposed to just any human, yes.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 March 2008 - 11:53 PM.


#30 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:25 AM

As opposed to just any human, yes.


Then why bother to mention the Ritos' long ears? It's clear that we are discussing only human girls with long ears because that is who Ganondorf has been targeting. It makes me think you're going off-point to deliberately divert from the fact that distinguishing the kidnapped girls' long ears undoubtedly indicates that the long ears are rare on the Great Sea (if not just Windfall Island).




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