130 replies to this topic

[Reflectionist]

Oh no no. I wasn't saying that he was against marriage, just the family, which is a structure of unequal power (Father/Son, Mother-in-law/Daughter-in-law, there's a pattern there). Polygamy (but not polygyny) would help get rid of it.

Oh, I see. Well, I interpereted your post as: Jesus wants to destroy the family as in the verse mentioned, polygamy also tears up faimlies, so.... Jesus endorses polygamy?

Sorry for the misinterp, Alak.

[Alakhriveion]

And Jesus isn't necessarily saying that He wants to bring discord to families in the passage Alak mentions - just that He will. And, indeed, has done. Look at all the wars over 'Christianity' for example.

Neccesary evils aren't Jesusy, if I may use the technical term. If he's breaking down the familys, he means to. I understand why he would: the family is the most basic unit of hierarchy and dominance. He intends to bring the younger generation (and the oppressed in general) to victory over their superiors. Point is, he doesn't need or want us to maintain the family, and the idea that family values are Christian ones... Ok, I'm digressing again.

[Nevermind]

Sounds a bit Jesusy, yeah.









So basically....take many wives. Just don't treat any one better than any others.

[Chikara Nadir]

I didn't say that. Catholics have faith. Tons of it. But they lose the point of Christianity every once in a while. It's supposed to be a relationsihp, not really so much a religion as in "do this, don't do this, do this, don't do this or you're going to Hell."

I dunno, that sounds like more than a couple of Baptist churches I've seen (most noticeably one that I used to be a member of, before my family found someplace less...scary, and the church ended up breaking off into a Non-Denominational for perhaps changing their philosophies to some that actual Baptist churches might not have favoured). Every Christian denomination has their own way of doing things, and not a single one of them leads their life in the same way that Jesus led his, so...I just find it hard for one group to criticize another as to which is "closer to the point of Christianity".

[Korhend]

I didn't say that. Catholics have faith. Tons of it. But they lose the point of Christianity every once in a while.

What did we say about overstepping boundaries before with delphi?

Edited by Korhend, 16 May 2006 - 02:15 PM.

[Goose]

I didn't say that. Catholics have faith. Tons of it. But they lose the point of Christianity every once in a while. It's supposed to be a relationsihp, not really so much a religion as in "do this, don't do this, do this, don't do this or you're going to Hell."

That kind of stuff shouldn't even be thought about. Sure, it's okay to do that stuff. But don't put too much faith in that, and lose sight of God's Love. Don't lose sight of love. If you do something just because you've always done it, that's how your religion does it, and it's not out of love.... well...

QUOTE

First Corinthians 13:1-3 [b]The Message Translation[/i]:
1If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
2If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing.

3If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

Ok. A big ol Catholic here. Here to defend my faith.

Firstly. Are you:

a) Claming that the catholic church only does things out of tradition, not love?

B) Can lose sight of the big picture... that is worshipping Jesus?

c) We (Catholics) speak but dont act?

I dont really expect you to answer those claims, but I'll refute each one in turn anyway.

a) Sure, we do things out of tradition. The Eucharist has been done htat way for thousands of years. Have we lost the meaning of the tradition? No, no we havn't. Whenever we have the eucharist, it is christ there and then, not about symbolsim. Its a way of worshipping God, just like singing Worship and praise music, its just another, different, way of expriencing Christ.

B) It may seem like Catholics can lose sight of the bigger picture. They go to mass on a Saturday / Sunday and spend an hour listening to the priest, and then go about their week again, like nothing happened. It can look that way, from the outside.

However, if you think of it from the inside, life can be a bit different. Catholisicm is about worshipping Jesus, not the Pope. We respect the popes leadership decisions as inspired by God, and thats why we follow them.

Being a Catholic is about going through life, developing a deep and purposeful relationship with God. Its about worshipping him, even if not in the most charismatic of ways. Its about Loving people, even if we screw it up sometimes, as everybody in whatever faith does.

Its about learning things from other Christians, and walking in a fellowship with them. Its about learning from other Religions, and developing a fellowship with them.

Its about worshipping God. It is about Love.

c) We can talk the talk and not walk the walk, sometimes. But just as there may be a few people like that, there are millions of Catholics throughout the world walking the walk. Some have passed away - Mother Teresa. - Pope JP2. But hrere are teenagers, adults, mothers, fathers, children, tones of people that you dont here about, worshipping and doing gods work.


Now, I've made some claims. But how can i possibly back them up? I'll tell you. I'm 19 year-old University student who helps out at his old higschool at their youth ministry. I see teenagers going through troubles understanding their relationships with God. I see them worshipping, I see them acting on their faith. I see them loving peopel through their actions. I see them making mistakes. I see them trying to work it all out, and sometimes getting it completely wrong. I see them obbsessing about Michel w Smith. I see them trying to find a way to make Mass more relevant to their lives. I see them walking in step with God, even they dont see it.

Yeah. I see them loving God with all their hearts. So I beg of you, before you say such statements, (Which Korhend rightfully pointed out as out of line ) Dont judge the whole church on what you see in a fragmented section of the church. Because trust me, Catholics love God.

[Reflectionist]

Ok. A big ol Catholic here. Here to defend my faith.

Firstly. Are you:

a) Claming that the catholic church only does things out of tradition, not love?

B) Can lose sight of the big picture... that is worshipping Jesus?

c) We (Catholics) speak but dont act?

I dont really expect you to answer those claims, but I'll refute each one in turn anyway.

a) Sure, we do things out of tradition. The Eucharist has been done htat way for thousands of years. Have we lost the meaning of the tradition? No, no we havn't. Whenever we have the eucharist, it is christ there and then, not about symbolsim. Its a way of worshipping God, just like singing Worship and praise music, its just another, different, way of expriencing Christ.

B) It may seem like Catholics can lose sight of the bigger picture. They go to mass on a Saturday / Sunday and spend an hour listening to the priest, and then go about their week again, like nothing happened. It can look that way, from the outside.

However, if you think of it from the inside, life can be a bit different. Catholisicm is about worshipping Jesus, not the Pope. We respect the popes leadership decisions as inspired by God, and thats why we follow them.

Being a Catholic is about going through life, developing a deep and purposeful relationship with God. Its about worshipping him, even if not in the most charismatic of ways. Its about Loving people, even if we screw it up sometimes, as everybody in whatever faith does.

Its about learning things from other Christians, and walking in a fellowship with them. Its about learning from other Religions, and developing a fellowship with them.

Its about worshipping God. It is about Love.

c) We can talk the talk and not walk the walk, sometimes. But just as there may be a few people like that, there are millions of Catholics throughout the world walking the walk. Some have passed away - Mother Teresa. - Pope JP2. But hrere are teenagers, adults, mothers, fathers, children, tones of people that you dont here about, worshipping and doing gods work.
Now, I've made some claims. But how can i possibly back them up? I'll tell you. I'm 19 year-old University student who helps out at his old higschool at their youth ministry. I see teenagers going through troubles understanding their relationships with God. I see them worshipping, I see them acting on their faith. I see them loving peopel through their actions. I see them making mistakes. I see them trying to work it all out, and sometimes getting it completely wrong. I see them obbsessing about Michel w Smith. I see them trying to find a way to make Mass more relevant to their lives. I see them walking in step with God, even they dont see it.

Yeah. I see them loving God with all their hearts. So I beg of you, before you say such statements, (Which Korhend rightfully pointed out as out of line ) Dont judge the whole church on what you see in a fragmented section of the church. Because trust me, Catholics love God.

What's the point of the Pope? Is he not a Sinner just like everyone else? What makes him special?


Sure, some Catholics are gonna get lost in religion. I'm just saying it's really really easy to get lost in your religion. I've been to Catholic church a few times. They did some things that I'd never read about in the Bible, and have no clue on Earth how they came to be in existance. What's with their whole attitude of 'you're goin to hell if you don't stand when we stand, sit when we sit, eat this, eat that.... etc. etc.'

Even when the Bible mentions that taking communion withouth being Clean and upfront with and before God is just wrong?

[Korhend]

Is he not a Sinner just like everyone else? What makes him special?

Apostolic Succession.

[Goose]

What's the point of the Pope? Is he not a Sinner just like everyone else? What makes him special?


Sure, some Catholics are gonna get lost in religion. I'm just saying it's really really easy to get lost in your religion. I've been to Catholic church a few times. They did some things that I'd never read about in the Bible, and have no clue on Earth how they came to be in existance. What's with their whole attitude of 'you're goin to hell if you don't stand when we stand, sit when we sit, eat this, eat that.... etc. etc.'

Even when the Bible mentions that taking communion withouth being Clean and upfront with and before God is just wrong?

Why dont you do some research on that stuff. I'll help you.

http://www.vatican.va - The vatican website.

On the Pope

http://www.lifeteen....DocumentId=3833

http://www.lifeteen...._DocumentId=777

http://www.lifeteen....DocumentId=3862

http://www.lifeteen....DocumentId=3867

On Traditions in the Church

http://www.lifeteen....&__CategoryID=4

On the Eucharist

http://www.lifeteen....&__CategoryID=9

Yeah. Those are just some of the places to look. They should answer your questions.

[Nevermind]

I know of a widely accepted Catholic site (I don't know the site, I'll have to grab the URL for it) in which it is stated that you can accept the Catholic Church, or the Seventh Day Adventist Church. It is impossible to accept both. Either the Catholics are right or the SDA's are right. So basically the Catholic church believes them to heathens, whereas the SDA's believe the Catholic church to be misguiding and corrupt.

The thing is, I have friends who are Seventh Day Adventists. I know all about their religion and what they believe, and it's not that different AT ALL, so where does that idea even come from?

[Chikara Nadir]

What's the point of the Pope?

Just about every Christian denomination has leaders who decide things behind the scenes as to what to allow in the church, what sermons to have take place, how to react to particular controversial issues at hand (abortion, gay Christians/ministers, etc). They may not be as publicized as the Pope, but that doesn't mean that those leaders don't exist. The Pope is the leader of the oldest popular section of Christianity that's still around, so it only makes sense that he'd be out there and known to all.

[Korhend]

Just about every Christian denomination has leaders who decide things behind the scenes as to what to allow in the church, what sermons to have take place, how to react to particular controversial issues at hand (abortion, gay Christians/ministers, etc). They may not be as publicized as the Pope, but that doesn't mean that those leaders don't exist. The Pope is the leader of the oldest popular section of Christianity that's still around, so it only makes sense that he'd be out there and known to all.

Thats only a small part of it. The pope is a central part of Catholic Theology. Its a concept of apostolic succession, that St. Peter, the first pope, passed down his role to his successors, and thus the pope is in many ways above the ordinary man. He holds the power of infallibility, which no other person does.

[Steel Samurai]

*yawns* As always, any topic started in contro breaks down into individual wars for each persons personal belief. Either that or political viewpoint. Ah well. Might as well jump in.

1) The pope. Two main reasons I heartily mistrust the fact that the pope is God's earthly representative. First, and foremost, I see no Biblical evidence for the theory of Apostolic succession. Jesus said to PETER "On this rock I shall build my church." Not "On you and the bishops of Rome who come after you, which shall be called popes." Secondly, the pope is supposed to be the representative of God, the Vicar of Christ, which I take to mean that he is God's stand in part. If that is the case, then why is he elected? Seems like a sword in the stone type affair would be more appropriate, or at least that the current Pope would appoint his successor after much prayer. You may say that the college of Cardinal's elect whome they elect with much prayer, etc. Look where that got them in the middle ages. Fractures in the church, kidnappings, and several Popes (Borgias, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) who kept girlfriends in the Vatican, with rooms next to their's for easy access. I somehow don't think that's the kind of guy Jesus woudl appoint as his stand-in. (Infallibility, Korhend??)

2) Catholicism in general - I could go into my feelings on the eucharist, etc. but for now I will remark on only a couple points. Tradition: I've always been under the impression that catholics put tradition alongside the Bible, and above it when they contradict each other (marrying clergy, anyone) (this makes no sense to me) Secondly, I've also always been under the impression that Catholics were taught that the only way to get into heaven was to be as good as you could be; that there was no assurance you were going to make the grade. Now, if you're going to put tradition over the Bible, fair enough, but if you take the Bible as higher than tradition, then you encounter a problem. Paul told the Phillipian jailer to "believe, and you shall be saved" that was it. Not "do good works all your days and you might be save" but simply "believe" Now, as James said, Faith without works is dead. I take this to mean that works will accompany true faith just like calories and KFC (unless you go for their diet menu). And yes, we should be an example to the world, in fact, the Bible teaches this. Meh. I'll stop there, though there's more that I'll probably end up saying.

3)

Neccesary evils aren't Jesusy, if I may use the technical term. If he's breaking down the familys, he means to. I understand why he would: the family is the most basic unit of hierarchy and dominance. He intends to bring the younger generation (and the oppressed in general) to victory over their superiors. Point is, he doesn't need or want us to maintain the family, and the idea that family values are Christian ones... Ok, I'm digressing again.

Satire gotten. I could refute this, but it's 3:00 and it seems pointless, cause you don't mean it.

4) Mormonism - *yawn* nah, I'll save this one. I'm not in the mood to face an angry Delphi at the moment.

5) Polygamy (to get the thread back on topic) - I had a discussion about this with my dad (Baptist pastor) the other day. I believe my conclusion was that God created marriage to be monogamous, polygamy was a result of the fall, and there is a passage in one of the Pauline epistles which could be interpreted to be anti-polygamy.

There. A few of my thougths on these subjects.

[Korhend]

(Infallibility, Korhend??)

You misunderstand, the pope is not infallible in anything he does. The pope makes mistakes like any human. However when the pope specifically says something is infallible, then it becomes infalible, much like the apostles. The apostles made mistakes, but their scripture is considered infalible. The infallibility is limited soley to the interpereatation of the scripture. It is not the absense of sin.

Jesus said to PETER "On this rock I shall build my church." Not "On you and the bishops of Rome who come after you, which shall be called popes."

No it was Peter who elaborated this when founding the catholic church as not every action by St. Peter was listed in the Bible. As for the method of selection for the Pope, it is not technically his holiness that is infallible, but the bishops as a whole, represented in unity through the pope. The biblical evidence goes beyond "upon this rock I shall build my church", it actually speaks of the church.
"behave thyself in the house of God, which is ... the pillar and ground of the truth." Time 3:15

[Alakhriveion]

You misunderstand, the pope is not infallible in anything he does. The pope makes mistakes like any human. However when the pope specifically says something is infallible, then it becomes infalible, much like the apostles. The apostles made mistakes, but their scripture is considered infalible. The infallibility is limited soley to the interpereatation of the scripture. It is not the absense of sin.

Not exactly. The Pope can be wrong about scripture, but he's always right about morals if he invokes infallibility in making a declaration about morality and it does not contradict preexisting Church dogma or infallible declarations. This is only done very rarely.

[Korhend]

Which is what I said

[SOAP]

Not to bring the discussion back whoever said to get to heaven all you need to do is be as good as possible, that's just wrong. Maybe other religions believe that but that is moral relativism and NOT a part of Christianity. At least it's not suppose to. :/

That said, I think Reflectionist is stressing too much on the faith thing. Faith is much more than just believing in something. Believing in something is much like loving something. If someone said they loved you but did nothing to show it, would you trust them? Not for long, I hope. Faith, like love, takes action. You can't just say you believe in God, you have to prove it through the things you do. That action is works. I know you've said that you don't disagree with faith without works is dead but if a Catholic, Mormon, whatever believes strongly in dooing good deeds I would assume at some point they made the concious decision to believe in God so their works aren't without faith either.

Also, I don't see why you're harping so much on other religions' traditions. So what if they're not included in the Bible. They're just how they express their love to God. It's also a way of keeping their faith in shape, much like excercing a muscle. In any case, where in it in the Bible does it even say you can only worship God one way and this way only? No where right? Then whta should it matter how they express their faith?

[Vazor]

Wow. I haven't even checked this thread yet. When I did, I was shocked to find that nearly all of it was a relentless, ignorant attack on Christianity and Catholicism.

Please. All of you right now stop basing your opinions about Catholicism on your ignorant assumptions and the biased information you've been fed. If you had any understanding about the Catholic religion at all, you would know that all of your accusations are moot. For example, the whole "you go to hell if you do this or don't do that" attitude you mentioned. That is NOT what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that if you do these things and DO NOT REPENT, then you will go to hell, emphasizing that all sinners are capable of receiving forgiveness and salvation. Any church saying otherwise is (even if they claim to be) not true Christianity. It's so unfortunate that people base their whole picture of the Catholic Church on the number of individuals churches that go against Christian doctrine.

You see, this is something that's become increasingly disturbing to me lately. I've had non-Catholic Christians actually tell me that their church has told them that mine worships statues. Seeing as Catholicism teaches you to embrace non-Catholic Christians as somewhat misguided brothers, it makes no sense to me that others would spread lies about us. I just don't understand it, but evidently it happens. So, my non-Catholic Christians, please do some research before you slander us and our beliefs. After all, a real Catholic (one that follows the actual doctrine) wouldn't do this to you. I honestly didn't believe that other churches spread these kinds of lies about Catholicsm, but when I heard it right from their own mouth...then, it was kind of shocking. So please, I beg of all of you, non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians in general, stop making rash generalizations about my faith based on the little, biased information you have. It's insulting and offensive.

[Reflectionist]

Wow. I haven't even checked this thread yet. When I did, I was shocked to find that nearly all of it was a relentless, ignorant attack on Christianity and Catholicism.

Please. All of you right now stop basing your opinions about Catholicism on your ignorant assumptions and the biased information you've been fed. If you had any understanding about the Catholic religion at all, you would know that all of your accusations are moot. For example, the whole "you go to hell if you do this or don't do that" attitude you mentioned. That is NOT what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that if you do these things and DO NOT REPENT, then you will go to hell, emphasizing that all sinners are capable of receiving forgiveness and salvation. Any church saying otherwise is (even if they claim to be) not true Christianity. It's so unfortunate that people base their whole picture of the Catholic Church on the number of individuals churches that go against Christian doctrine.

You see, this is something that's become increasingly disturbing to me lately. I've had non-Catholic Christians actually tell me that their church has told them that mine worships statues. Seeing as Catholicism teaches you to embrace non-Catholic Christians as somewhat misguided brothers, it makes no sense to me that others would spread lies about us. I just don't understand it, but evidently it happens. So, my non-Catholic Christians, please do some research before you slander us and our beliefs. After all, a real Catholic (one that follows the actual doctrine) wouldn't do this to you. I honestly didn't believe that other churches spread these kinds of lies about Catholicsm, but when I heard it right from their own mouth...then, it was kind of shocking. So please, I beg of all of you, non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians in general, stop making rash generalizations about my faith based on the little, biased information you have. It's insulting and offensive.

*cough*

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

Edited by Reflectionist, 20 May 2006 - 03:31 PM.

[SOAP]

Vazor. Why you think I left my Baptist church? All they did was talk about how wrong everyone else was and targeted Catholics and Mormons the most. It even got to the point that they brought in an "ex-Catholic" to talk about how "horrible" his experiences were as a Catholic. If that wasn't bad enough this all took place in Youth Group infront of adolescents and teenagers that are confused enough as it is. Now these people are closings these poor kids minds to anything outside of their belief structure by feeding them all this negative propaganda.

[Selena]

Reflectionist, I'm assuming your little pointless post there was something to do about Catholics thinking they're the only correct Christian sect? If so, I'm surprised. Because you've essentially been telling other Christian sects they're wrong throughout this entire thread. But oh dear. Some think you're wrong too. Shock.


Excuse me while I drop my debating politeness, but Reflectionist, stop being a little bitch to people who aren't of your particular faith and start researching other religions WITHOUT getting spoonfed information from a biased source. The way you've been acting in here makes me wonder why anyone would join your religion in the first place.

Edited by Selena, 20 May 2006 - 03:45 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Reflectionist, I'm assuming your little pointless post there was something to do about Catholics thinking they're the only correct Christian sect? If so, I'm surprised. Because you've essentially been telling other Christian sects they're wrong throughout this entire thread. But oh dear. Some think you're wrong too. Shock.
Excuse me while I drop my debating politeness, but Reflectionist, stop being a little bitch to people who aren't of your particular faith and start researching other religions WITHOUT getting spoonfed information from a biased source. The way you've been acting in here makes me wonder why anyone would join your religion in the first place.

Who in their right mind would think I was wrong? I'm deeply hurt.

You, surely, of all people, must understand the lost art of sarcasm.

What makes you so sure that my sources are the only biased sources? What keeps you from thinking that everything you've ever been taught came from at least one biased source? What if everything you've been taught in your 20 some odd years of living has been a lie? You don't know.

My beliefs are my beliefs. Yours are yours. I'm debating for the sake of debating because I have nothing else to do.

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Matthew 10:16

Edited by Reflectionist, 20 May 2006 - 03:51 PM.

[Vazor]

*cough*

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

You see, the thing is, I forgive you for being misguided. I didn't actually believe that the stuff about other Christians (mostly Baptists) slandering Catholicism was true. I thought it was a bunch of alarmist bullshit. When reality set in, I didn't decide to slander Baptists. I instead explained my position to two of them, and one of them now has a fuller understanding of Catholic doctrine. When I said "So please, I beg of all of you, non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians in general, stop making rash generalizations about my faith based on the little, biased information you have. It's insulting and offensive," I wasn't referring to the religions as a whole, but rather those specific members of this forum who are acting out of ignorance, including yourself, Reflectionist. From your summation of Catholic doctrine, it's obvious that you have been given incorrect information about us. I'm not saying all non-Catholic sects of Christianity needlessly offend Catholics; I'm saying that you have made it seem that your parish does.

[Selena]

What makes you so sure that my sources are the only biased sources? What keeps you from thinking that everything you've ever been taught came from at least one biased source? What if everything you've been taught in your 20 some odd years of living has been a lie? You don't know.

I don't claim to have never dealt with biased information. Growing up in an ultra liberal area, that's nigh impossible to avoid. And you're right. I don't know if the information passed out by various people is correct or not. That's why when I'm curious about something, or religions in particular, I try to go to their source and inquire about it from the people who actually take part. Like if I had a question about Mormonism, I wouldn't want to base my opinions of it off of hearsay from 'my' side, and actually ask Delphi or someone else who's well versed in the doctrine about it.

But as shown in this thread, you've only displayed knowledge about the Mormon and Catholic faiths that screams of dogmatic information passed out by officials who obviously try to point out either totally incorrect or out-of-context facts for the purpose of making them look bad. As is evident by members of these faiths laying the smackdown on such incorrect facts.

[Reflectionist]

You see, the thing is, I forgive you for being misguided. I didn't actually believe that the stuff about other Christians (mostly Baptists) slandering Catholicism was true. I thought it was a bunch of alarmist bullshit. When reality set in, I didn't decide to slander Baptists. I instead explained my position to two of them, and one of them now has a fuller understanding of Catholic doctrine. When I said "So please, I beg of all of you, non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians in general, stop making rash generalizations about my faith based on the little, biased information you have. It's insulting and offensive," I wasn't referring to the religions as a whole, but rather those specific members of this forum who are acting out of ignorance, including yourself, Reflectionist. From your summation of Catholic doctrine, it's obvious that you have been given incorrect information about us. I'm not saying all non-Catholic sects of Christianity needlessly offend Catholics; I'm saying that you have made it seem that your parish does.

Well, I don't appreciate being called a 'Misguided-Brother,' thank you very much. Maybe you're the wrong one? What the hell is "Catholic Doctrine?' Isn't the BIBLE Good enough for you or the Mormons? What even happened to The Bible being the one and only book with the Words of God?

Unless you can back up what you say out of THE HOLY BIBLE, I don't believe it. Sorry.

I've seen a Mormon Bible: Nearly every verse has been twisted to suit their meaning. And I've been to Catholic Services.... my stepfather was raised Catholic. You act like the only source of information I have is my own Church?

Dude, here's left field. You're WAY the hell over there.

The Bible says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and Only son, that whoever believes in him won't parish, but have everlasting life."

It doesn't Say, "For God so loved the World, that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes, follows the Pope, Goes to church every sunday, walks little old ladies across the street and is a generally good person will not die, but have everlasting life."

So don't go off calling me a 'misguided brother' because that's what your CHURCH Tells you, with it's elected popes. Your Elected Pope is as much of a sinner as every other Christian in the world. Your Pope is NOTHING.

I don't claim to have never dealt with biased information. Growing up in an ultra liberal area, that's nigh impossible to avoid. And you're right. I don't know if the information passed out by various people is correct or not. That's why when I'm curious about something, or religions in particular, I try to go to their source and inquire about it from the people who actually take part. Like if I had a question about Mormonism, I wouldn't want to base my opinions of it off of hearsay from 'my' side, and actually ask Delphi or someone else who's well versed in the doctrine about it.

But as shown in this thread, you've only displayed knowledge about the Mormon and Catholic faiths that screams of dogmatic information passed out by officials who obviously try to point out either totally incorrect or out-of-context facts for the purpose of making them look bad. As is evident by members of these faiths laying the smackdown on such incorrect facts.

Okay Palpatine. Keep your conspiracy theories to yourself.

Edited by Reflectionist, 20 May 2006 - 07:29 PM.

[Vazor]

Well, I don't appreciate being called a 'Misguided-Brother,' thank you very much. Maybe you're the wrong one? What the hell is "Catholic Doctrine?' Isn't the BIBLE Good enough for you or the Mormons? What even happened to The Bible being the one and only book with the Words of God?

Unless you can back up what you say out of THE HOLY BIBLE, I don't believe it. Sorry.

The Bible is of course the word of God, and everything Catholcism teaches comes from the Bible. Catholic doctrine means the teachings that come from the bible. That much should be obvious.

I've seen a Mormon Bible: Nearly every verse has been twisted to suit their meaning. And I've been to Catholic Services.... my stepfather was raised Catholic. You act like the only source of information I have is my own Church?

First off, I'm not defending Mormonism. I'll leave that to the Mormons, since I'm not really well-versed in Mormonism. However, judging by your attacks on Catholicism, you've never seen true Catholicism in church. Maybe you've seen some so-called Catholic churches that ignore basic Catholic Doctrine (a concept you seem to be unwilling to grasp), but if you honestly believe what you say to be true, you've never met a real Catholic in your life.

Dude, here's left field. You're WAY the hell over there.

The Bible says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and Only son, that whoever believes in him won't parish, but have everlasting life."

It doesn't Say, "For God so loved the World, that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes, follows the Pope, Goes to church every sunday, walks little old ladies across the street and is a generally good person will not die, but have everlasting life."

First of all, anyone who believes in Christ would follow his teachings, which, in case you haven't noticed, is fundamentally based around "being a generally good person." Pick up a bible sometime, it's worth the read.

So don't go off calling me a 'misguided brother' because that's what your CHURCH Tells you, with it's elected popes. Your Elected Pope is as much of a sinner as every other Christian in the world. Your Pope is NOTHING.

So because he's a sinner, he's nothing? By that logic, you're nothing, I'm nothing, and virtually everyone on Earth is nothing. The Church doesn't say that the Pope is infallible. You act like we worship him or something. He is the leader of the Catholic community on Earth. That's it. He sins, he repents, and all the rest. Honestly, if you are going to attack my faith, at least educate yourself first. You're acting like we think the Pope is God.

And where do you get off telling me that I just follow Catholicism "because my church tells me to"? Did you ever stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, I've analyzed my faith, considered other options? Perhaps you simply can't comprehend that one could choose Catholicism. If that's the case, I feel bad for you. And no matter what you say, I consider you, and all our fellow human beings brothers and sisters. And, chances are, I'm going to pray for you tonight, however much you may resent it, because Christ taught us to love even those who persecute us. After all, did he not ask the father to forgive the soldiers nailing him to the cross?

Long story short: Stop hating, Read the bible.

Edited by Vazor, 20 May 2006 - 07:58 PM.

[Korhend]

Right, Reflectionist you have one week out of contro for flaming, goodbye.

Edited by Korhend, 20 May 2006 - 08:00 PM.

[Steel Samurai]

Heh. Thanks Korhend. That was getting rather annoying, despite the fact I agree with much of what he says. Anyway, I propose we do this logically, without heated debate, and without getting ticked off at anyone. This is contro after all. We have reputation of being clear minded and open to considering other beliefs . . . oh wait. My bad.

Anyway, there's something I'd like to clear up completely first. It's been addressed but not in the depth I'd like. How do you Catholics (and mormons, if there's any left in this flame fest) believe a person gets to heaven? I've always been told that the Catholics teach that one must do believe in God AND do good works in order to get into heaven. In my church (a small independent Baptist church) we say that in order tog et into heaven, the only thing necessary is to repent of your sins and believe that Jesus died and was ressurrected. If one is serious about their faith, then once they're saved, then they'll want to follow Jesus and do good works, and avoid sinning, etc.

[Nevermind]

Just what religion IS Reflectionist o_O


Is he like....part of some protestant inquisition? Seriously, I can't pin it.



The best way I have heard of gaining entrance to Heaven came from the SDA's. They believe that it is not acts, works, faith, whatever that gets you in, because God weighs the heart. That's what I love about the SDA's. You know, they're a bit conspiracy theory-ish against the Catholic Church and the Vatican (not Catholics themselves, but the head honchos of the Church - and I've got to admit, so far the evidence is pretty compelling but that is not something I wish to delve into), but everything that they believe and that they try to interpret they get only from the Bible (the KJV Bible at that, simply on the principle that it is the least-edited version), and cross-reference it that much that I've yet to see them contradict themselves. And hey, it works for everyone, cos it is what is in your heart that determines who you truly are, before man and before God.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 21 May 2006 - 09:17 AM.