130 replies to this topic

[Kazi]

I'm doing a sociology project on polygamy and I need your input. what kinds of gender relations arise out of polygamy? what I mean is:
how does it affect the woman? (positive or negative)
how does it affect the man? (positive or negative)
what kind of gender inequalities arise out of one man having multiple wives? one woman having multiple husbands?

if possible, try to include mormon/latter day saints references.

note:
this is for my benefit so please stay on topic as much as possible.
this is not about the legalization or ethics of polygamy, so try to leave it out.
this is american mormon polygamy, not christian or african or what have you.
this isn't really homework help as much as it is a spark for a conversation as I'm looking to your opinions to help me along.
if you get your information from a web site, please link to it.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'm doing a sociology project on polygamy and I need your input. what kinds of gender relations arise out of polygamy? what I mean is:

So, basically, you want us to do your homework for you?

Try going to Wikipedia and searching for information first. Don't take it all at face value, as you may know, Wikipedia can be edited by any old fool. However, it should be able to help start you off in the right direction by pointing you out to references that are more stable.

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 05 May 2006 - 07:17 AM.

[Kazi]

I don't want you to do it for me, it's just that I want to hear what you think about it and I can get footing, so far I'm a little clueless. if I participate in a conversation about it I can understand it better and fuel my content. for the same reason any topic is posted here at all, and this is going to be applied into school work.

[Goose]

I dont know the specifics, but I from what I've heard on Dr Pheel, Polygamy can cause the partners to be jealous of eachother.

If you want some more knowledgeable advice, ask Delphi. If I remember correctly, shes a mormon. Yes, a Mormon, not a Moron, although that could be argued.

*runz*

[Reflectionist]

you might consider talking about how the mormons endorsed polygamy..... for a while.... and then their elected priests said that God no longer believed in Polygamy, so it was edited out of their Bible.for the four thousandth time.

That'd be a great place to start.

Edited by Reflectionist, 05 May 2006 - 06:23 PM.

[Oberon Storm]

From what I can tell that isn't the kind of project he is working on. Not all polygamist families are Mormon anyway. A lot of them claim to be other denominations or non-denominational Christians.

I think he means like the position of the members. In the white Christian or Morman familes the women are generally subservient to their husband. In some cultures it is the other way around. The several husbands serve the one wife. I think in Africa a man will have several wives, but he has less power.

I'm no expert though.

[Delphi]

You're opening a can of worms here. I hope you're prepared.

That's was a little uncalled for, Reflectionist.

Yes, I am a Mormon. Yes I can be a moron. I freely admit that, Goose. In fact, you've seen my moronism. XD I revel in it. XD

Alright, it's damage control time again!

1. Compared to the actual amount of Mormons, very few practiced polygamy. I believe at different times it was anywhere between 3-10%.

2. The wife was asked first before her husband took another wife. She could decline and polygamy would not be practiced in that family.

3. It was hard, no one denies that.

4. Reasons? Well we believe God said to do it so that takes precidence. The reasons it was probably necissary? See the next section

It's little known fact time!

While the Mormons were still in the part of the actual United States, mobs liked to come and drive us out of whever we settled. A lot of men were killed in resisting the mobs. The mobs did horrible things: Joseph Smirth was tarred and feathered more than once and had a chipped tooth because someone tried to force poison down his throat while this was happening and he resisted.

So you can see why we went to Utah. At the time, it was basically deserted and not even the Indians really liked that area. The treck was hard and a lot of people died: Mostly men. Women are tougher in long trecks like that. So what happened when they got to Utah? A disproportionate amount of women to men. We would have died out or our numbers significantly lowered. So polygamy was created. Not because the women couldn't take care of themselves, but because we were going to die. It's common knowledge that one man can produce many seed with many women. So there's the logic behind it. It doesn't mean these women were baby factories though. Think about it for a moment: If a man had three wives and each wife produced three children, he would now have 9 children all together. It's a form of exponential growth.

Another thing is that the women would take turns taking care of the children. Many women got college level education at this time because they actually had the time with this system. There are multiple instances of this.

However, jealously was a large factor. Sometimes the women would get along and other times they wouldn't. For example, if the wives got along, imaing if you're the man and one wife is mad at you. If they're all on good terms, you've got multiple women mad at you. Sucks to you, huh? On the flip side, some wives were treated very cruely by the other wives. There's an instance of that in my geneology. Yes, I am decended from polygamy.

When it was outlawed, the husbands still wanted to take care of their wives but were not allowed. Supposedly there was a grandfather clause but if was rarely effective. The men who had multiple wives were persicuted by new settlers not of the Mormon faith. Many of the men were sent to jail.

This is what I don't understand. It seems like a double standard to bash polygamy today. A man today can have extramartial affairs, but heaven forbid if he marries and takes care of the women he's with!

No other polygamous marriages were performed after it was outlawed and if members went against this they were excommunicated. Meaning they were no longer part of the Mormon faith and their names were wiped off the records. Therefore, the examples of polygamy from then until today are NOT part of the Mormon church in any way and we members ourselves are helping to bring these people to justice. They do not practice polygamy as it was in the early church. They are abusive, chauvenist, sick, perverted men that should be put in jail for abuse, stagitory rape, and violating US laws. Their women are also brainwashed to believe that if they leave, they will be damned to Hell. This is not part of the actual Mormon church, I will repeat, NOT affiliated with the Mormon church no matter what they say.

I am a descendent of polygamy so if I seem a little over sensitive on the matter, that's why. I don't like my family being insulted. Not my family today, not members of my family then, not members however far back we go. Unless they were like Hitler, then it's okay. XD But I hardly think a man with multiple wives is comparitive to Hitler so easy on the bashing, okay? In fact, please don't bash me or my religion period. It gets really obnoxious to have to do damage control because people post false things.

Here's a good rule of thumb for you people that want to know what's true about our faith: If it's in the scriptures, Meaning the Bible (as far as it is translated correctly: meaning I do accept some other translations such as the greek and such, but mostly we use the KJV), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, the declarations from the prophets included in the Pearl of Great Price as well as the Declaration to the Family make in the early 90's. Also Conference talks are scripture as we believe it is current revelation. Other than that, things that you read like the journals of the prophets and such are the thoughts of a regular human being talking from his own mind. Do not confuse these with scripture.

kkthxbai

[Reflectionist]

the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, the declarations from the prophets included in the Pearl of Great Price as well as the Declaration to the Family make in the early 90's. Also Conference talks are scripture as we believe it is current revelation.

And what about all those verses in the Bible saying that THE Holy Bible is ALONE the word of God?

The Bible doesn't really contradict itself, but Joseph Smith contradicts the Bible a lot. A lot even for a 40 year old man with a 4th grade education.


And, since you're mormon, could you explain to me what the "Secret Handshake of God" is...? Something inside of me is whispering 'Treehouse club, not religon.'

Not to mention People just took Joseph Smith's word for it. We still have ancient writings of the Bible today.

Edited by Reflectionist, 06 May 2006 - 06:57 PM.

[Delphi]

And what verses would these be?

Also, I have to ask: Why in the world are you so against Mormons? I don't get why you have to go and attempt to tear apart the religion. I don't bash other religions myself and the vast majority of Mormon's that I've known don't either. And I've lived in Utah for the last two years, right in the heart of the religion.

My basic question is this then: Why do you insist on being so malicious?

EDIT: I have never heard of the Secret Handshake of God or what have you. If you're getting it from anti-Mormon pamphlets all I have to say is consider the source.

Edited by Delphi, 06 May 2006 - 06:59 PM.

[Selena]

Something inside of me is whispering 'Treehouse club, not religon.'

Not to mention People just took Joseph Smith's word for it. We still have ancient writings of the Bible today.

- Judaism and all the other big name religions of the era probably thought the same about your religion too, when it was the rookie belief system.

- Before the New Testament was written down wouldn't everyone essentially be taking Jesus' word for it too? The writings didn't exactly appear out of thin air.



But for polygamy? All I gotta say is, poor man. You'd think with five women he'd have a better chance of getting laid, but all I could possibly see with that scenario is five 'I have a headache' excuses and five women tag teaming up against him for... well, anything really. Nag overload! No wonder it isn't allowed anymore.

[Reflectionist]

I don't have the patience to look them up right now anyway, but if half of what people say about Mormonism is true, then it wouldn't matter, because those verses would be changed to fit your needs.

[Selena]

No offense, but judging an entire religion on hearsay without actually looking up the facts yourself? Yet you always seem to get offended or at least irritated when people argue against Christianity without having read the Bible. A slight double standard, and one that breeds a lot of unneeded resentment.

[Delphi]

No patience? Sounds like an excuse for no evidence. Give me an example of something changed in Mormon doctrine besides simple grammar and spelling errors?

Btw, Joseph Smith wasn't the one who actually wrote it down. Oliver Cowdry did the writing while Joseph translated.

And I asked my mom about the handshake thing and it does exist, but it is an ordiance performed in the temple as symbolism. And before you call the symbolism stupid, then I would remember that if you take the sacriment (which I do also) then that is symbolism also.

Thanks for your support, Lena. You get what I'm saying. XD

And if I believed half of what I've heard about Catholics, Baptist, Lutherans, Buddhist, Non-Demonimationals, Islam, Aetheist or any other religion for that matter, I sure would be one ignorant person wouldn't I? Not meant as a stab at you, just a rhetorial question that many people should think about.

[Reflectionist]

No offense, but judging an entire religion on hearsay without actually looking up the facts yourself? Yet you always seem to get offended or at least irritated when people argue against Christianity without having read the Bible. A slight double standard, and one that breeds a lot of unneeded resentment.

Yes, but when Mormonism claims to be a sect of Christianity.... it kinda changes things up a bit.

[Delphi]

I believe in Christ. I do not worship anyone other than God Almight and Christ himself. I believe in the Holy Spirit. Therefore I am Christian, by definition.

[Showsni]

Provided Mormons believe Jesus dies to save them, Reflectionist, they'll still go to heaven. You may not agree with the rest of their teachings, but it's that main point that's the important one.

Which Latter Day Saint denomination are you, Delphi?

[Selena]

Yes, but when Mormonism claims to be a sect of Christianity.... it kinda changes things up a bit.

They claim to be Christian (and I see no logical reason why they aren't)...



....and that somehow means you don't have to learn a proper thing about them before casting judgement upon them?


Does not compute, sir.

[Reflectionist]

Okay, how about this: Where are the Gold Plates?

[Selena]

Probably the same place as the Holy Grail and the Arc of the Convenant.

Edited by Selena, 06 May 2006 - 08:27 PM.

[Reflectionist]

And is the 'holy grail' or the 'arc of the covenant' canon?

Because as far as I can remember, the 'holy grail' was never mentioned in scripture, and is widely accepted to be a lie.

[Goose]

People deserve respect, no matter what they believe. I have a friend who's a mormon, Delphi. Dont mess with my friends. (I have other mormon friends as well. )

When you put down mormonism, your doing a great lot of good for christianity.

Reflectionist, do you see catholics as christian, because we believe in eucharist? What do you define as a christian?

So, in conclusion, mormons are cool.

[Delphi]

You and Lena roxorz my soxorz, Goose.

The gold plates were taken into Heaven. There parts of it that were sealed and not ready to be translated yet. They will be returned when the time comes.

There really aren't other demoninations of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The offshoots aren't really considered Mormons since their set up is drastically different from ours. It's kind of like the situation with Catholics and Lutherans. They have a lot of the same beliefs, but they are certainly not the same religion.

Edited by Delphi, 06 May 2006 - 10:40 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Catholics believe it takes works and faith to get into heaven. They are Christian, because they have that Faith thing....but...

'Working your way to heaven" just sends up red flags, and that's what I've been taught to believe that Mormonism is about.

[Delphi]

I have faith. But I also believe that faith without works is dead. That's a quote from the Bible, btw.

Isn't this going a little off topic?

EDIT: Our Fourth article of Faith reads as such, btw:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Edited by Delphi, 06 May 2006 - 10:49 PM.

[Kazi]

this is contro, you can't get two posts in without sparking a religion argument.

thank you delphi very much for your information. a lot of things I have researched came up with poor results. polygamy is way too broad of a subject, so I chose polygamy as it is practiced in the very few mormons who believe in it.

what about the children of polygamist families? are the boys treated differently (for better or for worse) than the girl children? it would seem that because the object is to make the family as large as possible, there would be a favoring of boy children.

[Delphi]

No prob. You're quite polite about it.

I believe it was pretty equal. Despite what people think or what you have heard, male children are not (supposed to be anyways) favored over female children. Your children are you children so you should love them no matter what gender they are.

Edited by Delphi, 07 May 2006 - 02:31 AM.

[Nevermind]

Catholics believe it takes works and faith to get into heaven. They are Christian, because they have that Faith thing....but...

'Working your way to heaven" just sends up red flags, and that's what I've been taught to believe that Mormonism is about.

Condeming others for their religion is not your place. Settle down on the bashing a bit hey? You're acting like a dick. The whole faith vs works issue has been discussed a million and one times. Also, Jews believe in the same God, but have different texts, yet they stand free of attack from people regarding their religion. Why is that? And what makes you so right?

[Chikara Nadir]

'Working your way to heaven" just sends up red flags, and that's what I've been taught to believe that Mormonism is about.

Working your way to heaven is a bad thing? Okay. So doing good deeds, thinking and acting in a way that would signal that you're putting your utmost into being a pure and good person, all that stuff is a BAD thing? Because, of course, sitting on your butt the entire week and ignoring quite a few pieces of Christian doctrine is fine, so long as you go to church and say "Jesus saved me".

No, I never, ever have looked at it that way, if that's your definition of "working your way to heaven". It's not called Christianity; it's called hypocricy. I think that anyone on this planet who spends their life devoting themselves to helping others, so long as they have not outright denied God, has a much higher chance of a 'ticket to heaven' than anyone who survives on faith alone and makes no attempt to let the good word be spread. Jesus spent his life travelling, teaching and helping the people, not huddling in a temple to prove his worth.

If that's the case, then certainly, Mormonism is bad. After all, from what I have experienced from having Delphi as my friend and participating in a few functions, their entire way of life revolves around friendship, openness, working together, growing as human beings through church and filling your life with real-world experience, spreading the word through being friendly rather than pushy...

Wow, that just has 'sin' written all over it, doesn't it?


And yes, I know I too sound hypocritical, claiming to be in any way a good person whilst using unkind words to press my views. What can I say? I just don't like people using hearsay as the entire basis for their arguement against a large group of people. Or maybe it's just cause I'm a liberal. XP Who knows.

[Nevermind]

Polygamy could actually work provided that everyone got along, you know. It's not so much that it's a bad thing, as it is more of a taboo created from a single-spouse-commitment-driven society (one that doesn't hold to that in the first place, even though it promotes it oso vigilantly). Okay, so Lamech was punished and he happened to have 7 wives. But he wasn't punished for that, he was punished because he was basically too big for his own boots, and believed himself to be a god amongst men, pretty much.

I don't actually remember ever reading anything stating that Thou must take one wife and only one wife. Thou must only have one God. Thou must not commit adultery, adultery being "sex with someone outside of your marriage". Also, Thou must not covet thy neighbour's wife, because she is taken. So, hypothetically, if a man got along with three women, loved each of them the same, and those women loved each other (in a completely platonic way, of course!), there would be a whole lotta love, a whole lotta caring, and a whole lotta commitment. There would be no adultery within the relationship because they are all in it together, and all just as committed and just as consentual as each other. So apart from society's somewhat double-standard and superficial taboo, what is really fundamentally wrong with this picture?

Just goes to show that guys can do two things at once. Or three or four.

"There's a person out there for everyone. Sometimes there's two people for one person. I like to call that the jackpot."

[Emiko]

Montel Willams did a show about it...and i think Dr. Phil.

some women like having "sisters" to help them...others dont...

if your not from the US, it's illegal in the states...