36 replies to this topic

[Ganondorf]

Multiple timelines are an easy way out.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Reasons for a split-timeline:

1) Aonuma hinted at it.

2)LTTP backstory mentions IW, but fails to mention Ganon returning unmatched, causing the great flood

3) LTTP backstory, or in the game itself, mentions no Hero of Time or boy in green garbs (TWW does), and also it mentions nothing about how the lands reconnected or Hyrule unsubmerging...

lets say the OOT/IW happened 500 yrs before LTTP, and Ganons return/great flood happpens 300 yrs before LTTP...and the lands/islands are reestablished 200 yrs before LTTP. You would think the people of Hyrule would have fonder memories about events that happened 200 to 300 yrs earlier, than that of something 500 yrs earlier--especially about the return of the grand villain of legend and how the kingdom was lost. Basically, there are too many critical points in Hyrule's History that are missing between the IW and the start of LTTP. You can say legend being distorted all you want...but people are moe likely to remember latter events than earlier events. You wanna know why, those elements are missing from LTTP backstory---? It's because those missing events didn't happen on LTTP's timeline!

As for Legend of the Fairy, if there is chance of there being a copy of a person in Hyrule living in Termina...then there's a chance there was a Tingle copy in Hyrule and Termina. That's my serious response to that, but less seriously...it's merely a sploof not to be taken seriously. So screw, Tingle!!!!

To sum this post up...the LTTP and TWW backstories are too conflicting to be on a single timeline...which makes it likely that the IW happened on two timelines in two different ways. The IW we experienced in OOT happened on the timeline with TWW. The IW that happened after Link went back to the past happened on the LTTP timeline...and thus happened a different way...more so the way it is described in LTTP backstory.

[SOAP]

First off, two ambiguous sentences in an interview does not make it canon. The Multiple Timeline is purely a fan-made theory made by people who read too much into interviews.

Secondly, LttP was made way before TWW came out so how are the developers supposed to know they were going to make a game where Hyrule was going to be flooded later on in the series? What they need to do is stop making so many damn sequels to OoT before they work themselves into a plothole they can't get out of. Despite that, a Great Flood actually explains why the people forgot most of the major details about the Imprisoning War which is why the legend is different from what actually happened in OoT. They don't remember a flood because no one knew what happened to ancient Hyrule in the TWW (except a select few individuals) even though everyone was sitting right on top of it! Me thinks these select few indiduals took this secret to their grave, even after the people moved to the New Hyrule. As far as everyone was concerned they were once native to a bunch of islands and carried with them legends of an older Hyrule that people still had no idea where it was really located.

The Multiple Timeline is just messy and doesn't really explain much. Basically it's like say "D'oh! The Wind Waker can't fit on the timeline... IT MUST BE ON IT'S ALTERNATE REALITY!"

Pure laziness, it's as simple as that. Also, I never like the MTT since it gives hardcore SLT and Cel-haters too much of a leverage to say that the TWW never happened. TWW is an official LEGEND OF ZELDA title and has just as much a right to be in the same timeline as the rest of the series.

As for the Legend of the Fairy, there are other references MM, like the Rito who is said to be a decendant of Mailman from Termina with the same face. Also, how can the Triforce of Courage exist in that timeline if Link took it with him to the other one? The only explanation the MTT gives is that TWW never happened. What kind of explanation is that?

[Reflectionist]

Agreed.

The interviews can't be taken as canon because the big guys like aonuma and miyamoto let the little guys that develop the games put in their own little touches and their own thoughts on what things should be like. There are so many things in these games, wether a story fits in a specific spot or not depends generally on the big guys (i.e. miyamoto saying that he wants a game after OoT) and then the Little guys have more control over that (i.e. someone saying something specific about Ocarina of Time, or LttP... ) then, they'd both be right, and neither one would be right at the same time

That's why we're here. To put together the story. Not to make sense of how Miyamoto or Aonuma (you have no idea how many times i want to say arunma) *want* the games to fit together.

It's their series, but they let everyone else get their piece of it too, and we have to make room for them as well.

[SOAP]

Yeah, it's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle... Only a Jigsaw puzzle can be completed one way. With the Zelda series there's no wrong or right way; it's all just theories. Sure the big guys have hinted to an overall order but the specifics as to how they actually connect are pretty much left to us. No where did they ever say the say the series actually splits in a fork though. XP

[SOAP]

Okay, first of all, it's been debunked that it's even possible that TWW can talk place 100 years after OoT. It even says it's more than that in the game itself! So how do you know the rest of that statement isn't entirely true? I mean TWW was still in the works when he said that. And we do know Shigeru likes to "upend the table" and go another direction midway into a project.

Secondly, he could simply be using a reference point. They were trying to be cautious because Shigeru knew there were people who would take what they said way more serious than neccessary. If they say it takes place 100 years after OoT but then from what time period did those 100 years begin--when Link was a kid or the seven years later when he's adult? They were only trying to clear up any issues with the seven year difference so no nutjobs will come up with bizarre numbers like 107 or 93. This has nothing to do with what "universe" the TWW takes place. TWW could take place "100" years after the first ending of OoT, but still in the alternate child timeline seven years later when Link has already grown up and reached the age he was when he defeated Ganon.

Easy way out? Heh, you're funny. That's what SLT people have been saying about the MLT.

Okay, the MLT is an apple and the MTT is a chair. I fail to see the correlation that you're making. The MLT actually had more evidence than a few sentences in an interview and was for the most part more satisfying than trying to make up some weird theories to try to explain how all the games could take place in one Link's lifetime. And it was far from the hard way out and actually had some increbile thought behind it. The MTT does not. It's fanmade theory run amuk and wrongfully praised as canon. It does not explain things like all the other times Link traveled through time OoT nor the existance the ToC in TWW without saying the TWW was just a big "what-if." And besides, the MTT is a tool of the SLT, same as the Multiple Ganon theory and the Multiple Hyrule Theory.

[Neon Z]

Okay, first of all, it's been debunked that it's even possible that TWW can talk place 100 years after OoT. It even says it's more than that in the game itself! So how do you know the rest of that statement isn't entirely true? I mean TWW was still in the works when he said that. And we do know Shigeru likes to "upend the table" and go another direction midway into a project.

Japenese doesn't have plural, so, in most translations of that interview, his quote is mistranslated as just 100 years, but in others, it's actually translated as hundreds years. So, that proves nothing.

This has nothing to do with what "universe" the TWW takes place. TWW could take place "100" years after the first ending of OoT, but still in the alternate child timeline seven years later when Link has already grown up and reached the age he was when he defeated Ganon.

Dates have never been very accurate in ANY Zelda game, WW incluided. 7 years would make no difference in a context of that's talking about hundreds of them.

The MTT does not. It's fanmade theory run amuk and wrongfully praised as canon. It does not explain things like all the other times Link traveled through time OoT nor the existance the ToC in TWW without saying the TWW was just a big "what-if." And besides, the MTT is a tool of the SLT, same as the Multiple Ganon theory and the Multiple Hyrule Theory.

Are you serious? I, and many others, believe in the multi-timeline theory, and no one in this forum still believes in the SLT.

And both the Multiple Ganon and Multiple Hyrule Theories can be used by both STT, and MTT, but they're mainly STT tools.

The contradictions of a MTT are much smaller, and less important, than the ones of a STT (ALTTP's backstory VS Legend of the Fairy), and the MTT, differently from the STT, is backed up by an interview.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Mario Jr.) Secondly, LttP was made way before TWW came out so how are the developers supposed to know they were going to make a game where Hyrule was going to be flooded later on in the series?

That's an absurd explanation! Do you know how many prior stories that were written in which the author wasn't sure he'd make a sequel or prequel to it years later? Does that mean that the author has to change around the story of the first one just to fit in with the prequel or the sequel? Instead of altering the previous story, how about just creating a prequel or sequel that fits in with the prior story. It would be more ideal to make the sequel or prequel to fit in with the predecessor--not making the predecessor fit in with the sequel/prequel. ("predecessor" being the 1st story told to us)

(Chronicle) Meh, there's no split, this goes back to the time travel theory  Link goes back and forth through time alright, and he gets sent back... but why does that create a new timeline?

Because Link experienced the future that he time traveled to...by default that timeline continues on--even when he leaves that time--it doesn't get erased. The rule of time is: if something occured it had to have had happened. The different approaches Link takes in the past helps to spurn a new line in which he doesn't time travel or sleep for 7yrs. In that timeline--where he doesn't sleep--the IW eventually happens...but occurs a different way.

(Mario Jr) Pure laziness, it's as simple as that. Also, I never like the MTT since it gives hardcore SLT and Cel-haters too much of a leverage to say that the TWW never happened. TWW is an official LEGEND OF ZELDA title and has just as much a right to be in the same timeline as the rest of the series.

As for the Legend of the Fairy, there are other references MM, like the Rito who is said to be a decendant of Mailman from Termina with the same face. Also, how can the Triforce of Courage exist in that timeline if Link took it with him to the other one?

The ToC (of this particular reality) didn't go with him to the other timeline...it stayed in the TWW timeline...that's why it split...and that's why Hero of Wind had to go searching for it.

(Mario Jr)[B] The only explanation the MTT gives is that TWW never happened. What kind of explanation is that?

Why are you adding in things I didn't say? I never said TWW never happened, it did happen...it just happened on a different timeline. A split time-line doesn't deny the existence of TWW. That's just like saying that a tree that falls in the woods, doesn't make a sound if no one is around. Of course it made a sound...no one was around to hear it. Of course TWW happened...but no one in the other timeline experienced it.

[SOAP]

Yes I know the MTT can be used by both MLTers and SLTers alike. But I still wouldn't even bother to mention the MTT and the MLT in the same breath. You see, with MLT the series is put together in a way that is as simple and straight forward as possible. Since the focus is not the lifetime of one individual Link we have a much larger timescale to work with and any real inconsistencies (geographical changes, conflicting backstories) could be explained by the hundred or so year hiatus between each Link's lifetime. The MTT goes against this philosphy by making the timeline more complicated then it needs to. By bringing up Multiple Timelines you enter the dangerous feild of quantum physics and that's way too much that any normal video game player needs to think about. Do actually no what happens when we mess with time? I mean, really.

Why are you adding in things I didn't say?

I was speaking of the MTT in general, not trying to put words in your mouth. This is a debate not a personal attack against you. So lighten up, eh? XP

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 10:43 AM

Why are you adding in things I didn't say?

I was speaking of the MTT in general, not trying to put words in your mouth. This is a debate not a personal attack against you. So lighten up, eh? XP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm speaking in general as well...I don't know if you've been paying attention to the forums latley (considering it was revamped)...no one has really said anything about TWW not happening.

Earlier you said MTT is an easy way out and "pure laziness", now you're saying its complicated...which is it? So now that your saying MTT is complicated...I guess STL is easy or an easy way out, eh?

[SOAP]

Originally posted by Tri-Enforcer@Oct 1 2004, 12:57 PM
I'm speaking in general as well...I don't know if you've been paying attention to the forums latley (considering it was revamped)...no one has really said anything about TWW not happening.

Earlier you said MTT is an easy way out and "pure laziness", now you're saying its complicated...which is it?  So now that your saying MTT is complicated...I guess STL is easy or an easy way out, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, saying that the TWW takes place on another timeline, simply because it's to conflicting with LttP's backstory is lazy. The sheer mechanics of Multiple Timelines is complicated and I don't think most MTTers even understand it themselves.

[davogones]

The intention of the creators is, by definition, canon. Unfortunately, this means that if the creators decide DELIBERATELY to be ambiguous and vague, all we fans can do is come up with possible interpretations of their words. This means that the true canon is NOT KNOWN. Split timelines are a valid interpretation of Aonuma's words. The single timeline interpretation works as well. But there's no way of knowing which one is true unless we have more solid evidence.

Originally posted by TE
It would be more ideal to make the sequel or prequel to fit in with the predecessor--not making the predecessor fit in with the sequel/prequel

Now you're making assumptions about what the Zelda creators will and will not do. How do you know they're following your supposed ideal? From what I've seen, even when the creators do intend a timeline connection they introduce ambiguities and uncertainties, and don't make absolutely everything connect.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 11:01 AM
No, saying that the TWW takes place on another timeline, simply because it's to conflicting with LttP's backstory is lazy. The sheer mechanics of Multiple Timelines is complicated and I don't think most MTTers even understand it themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's so negative about "easy" these days? Why make something more complicated than it already is? Also TWW on another timeline isn't anymore easier than keeping it on a single one.

Just because you don't understand it...doesn't mean we don't. I or any other "MTTer" wouldn't put up anything we don't understand...same goes for STLers.

[SOAP]

Actually I never meant that the MTT wasn't valid. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear earlier. I just don't like the MTT because A.) I've yet to hear a convincing arguement that supports it, and B.) I got tired of people saying "OMG! It's 100% true! The creators said it themselves! Yup." I'd be more convinced if the interview took place AFTER TWW was released or at least when most of it was done when everything was pretty much set in stone.

EDIT:

What's so negative about "easy" these days? Why make something more complicated than it already is? Also TWW on another timeline isn't anymore easier than keeping it on a single one.

How hard can it be when you set it off in another timeline from LttP? And why is it so conflicting to LttP's backstory?

Just because you don't understand it...doesn't mean we don't. I or any other "MTTer" wouldn't put up anything we don't understand...same goes for STLers.

If you understand Time Travel then why are you wasting your time playing video games to begin with?

[SOAP]

^ Exactly. And just for the record, simple and easy aren't always the same thing. Something can be hard to think up of but still be simple to understand once it's finished. Likewise something can be easy to come up with but hard for people to understand.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 11:16 AM
Actually I never meant that the MTT wasn't valid. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear earlier. I just don't like the MTT because A.) I've yet to hear a convincing arguement that supports it, and B.) I got tired of people saying "OMG! It's 100% true! The creators said it themselves! Yup." I'd be more convinced if the interview took place AFTER TWW was released or at least when most of it was done when everything was pretty much set in stone.

How hard can it be when you set it off in another timeline from LttP? And why is it so conflicting to LttP's backstory?

If you understand Time Travel then why are you wasting your time playing video games to begin with?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one knows anything about time travel...cuz no one has seen it happen. All we can do is theorize. But from a fictional stand point we handle it anyway we want. Do you know how time travel works? How would you know that an alternate reality is not created whenever you time travel?

(Davo) Now you're making assumptions about what the Zelda creators will and will not do. How do you know they're following your supposed ideal? From what I've seen, even when the creators do intend a timeline connection they introduce ambiguities and uncertainties, and don't make absolutely everything connect.

By the same token...we can't rule out that they won't eventually create sequels/prequels to conform to the 1st story told to us. For now, there just twisting our heads, by creating ambiguities and uncertainties...to keep us along for the ride.

[SOAP]

No one knows anything about time travel...cuz no one has seen it happen. All we can do is theorize. But from a fictional stand point we handle it anyway we want. Do you know how time travel works? How would you know that an alternate reality is not created whenever you time travel?

I don't know, nor have I ever claimed that I do. But as far as putting the games together it's not neccesary. There are "better" alternatives.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 11:56 AM
No one knows anything about time travel...cuz no one has seen it happen. All we can do is theorize. But from a fictional stand point we handle it anyway we want. Do you know how time travel works? How would you know that an alternate reality is not created whenever you time travel?

I don't know, nor have I ever claimed that I do. But as far as putting the games together it's not neccesary. There are "better" alternatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You nor I are in any position to state what is "better", I never said STL isn't is any worse than MTT. I think you should've said that there are "other" alternatives.

[SOAP]

Words like "better," "good," "worse," and "bad" are all opinion words and EVERYONE has the right to say such things depending on how they feel about something. The only thing that makes them valid is when they actually give a reason behind it and I've done so.... multiple times.

What YOU don't have the right is to tell what I should and shouldn't say. :rar: ...Nah, I'm just messin wit' ya. You're alright. :XD:

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 01:31 PM
Words like "better," "good," "worse," and "bad" are all opinion words and EVERYONE has the right to say such things depending on how they feel about something. The only thing that makes them valid is when they actually give a reason behind it and I've done so.... multiple times.

What YOU don't have the right is to tell what I should and shouldn't say.  :rar: ...Nah, I'm just messin wit' ya. You're alright. :XD:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know I'm alright...I'm fabulous!!!

So, young man, what's your single time line theory...do you have a chronology?

[Doopliss]

I don't like a lot multiple timeline theories because they have never been suggested by any canon fact, plus, they make are a complete joke, using them you can practically place the games in any order you desire.

[SOAP]

Oh I bet I have a few chronologies floating about in that muddle demented head of mines... But sadly I'm tapped out from that last FSA theory I made.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Originally posted by Ganondorf@Sep 30 2004, 08:04 PM
Multiple timelines are an easy way out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pfft... I could say the same for magic, if I wanted to.

Multiple timelines are equally valid as single timelines. No one theory has any precedence over the other. All arguments concerning this will result in a stalemate, as you will never be able to prove anything 100%.

The thing is, Nintendo is trying its best to make all the games fit one single timeline.

Only problem is that both OoT and OoA royall screw up any attempts to make a single timeline. When you factor in time travel, you get paradoxes and all sorts of weird stuff that shouldn't happen logically. The only way for time travel to work without any paradoxes involving is for there to be multiple dimensions, each with its own variation of the Zelda timeline.

Try buying the Dorling Kindersley book, "Time And Space" ISBN 0-7513-1046-8, one of the Eyewitness Science books. It will explain the Multiple World Theory of time travel and how quantum choices could actually result in multiple dimensions and therefore multiple timelines.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

http://forums.legend...p?showtopic=720

There's my argument for how it's a single timeline.

Your argument is the entire Legends Alliance Forum?