48 replies to this topic

[Marty]

The only part I don't agree with is Link having to defeat Ganon for a second time. That just doesn't make any sense from the storytelling perspective. Why would Zelda send Link back to a point where he and the rest of Hyrule will still be in danger? That would mean that the game (and hence the story) has no closure.

The moment Link pulls the sword Ganondorf enters the sacred realm. So if Link is sent back to after this moment then when he puts the sword back in Ganondorf will be sealed inside the Sacred Realm and won't need to be defeated again. A much simpler interpretation and this way the story isn't left open.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Marty@Sep 28 2004, 08:49 PM
The only part I don't agree with is Link having to defeat Ganon for a second time. That just doesn't make any sense from the storytelling perspective. Why would Zelda send Link back to a point where he and the rest of Hyrule will still be in danger? That would mean that the game (and hence the story) has no closure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's why he would have to do that:

(Zelda in at the end pf OOT) Thank you, Link.... Thanks to you,
  Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again
  reign in this world... for a time. All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule
  was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of
  trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time
  for me to make up for my mistakes... You must lay the Master Sword to rest  and close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will
  be closed..." Zelda extends her hand to Link and says: "Link, give the Ocarina
  to me. As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it." Link looks
  at the Ocarina and puts it in Zelda's hand, then Zelda puts her other hand on
  top of Link's hand and looks at it with sad eyes. The Zelda says: " When peace
  returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say Good-bye... Now, go home,
  Link. Regain your lost time! Home... where you are supposed to be... the way
  you are supposed to be...

After defeating Ganon in the future Zelda realized that Link was destined to beat Ganon regardless of time travel. She clearly states that what she dragged Link into was a "mistake". She felt guilty for having Link lose his childhood, and also realized that Link can defeat Ganon without tampering with time, because it's his destiny. So she sends him back to his original time, most likely at the very beginning (hence "original time") or at least sometime just before Ganon enters the Sacred Realm. Now Link can live out his childhood and 7yrs later, or maybe even earlier, he will defeat Ganon once more.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by BlackHawkA100@Sep 29 2004, 11:13 AM
Actually, this also makes it so that Ganon has to find a different means of entering the Sacred Realm right?  Either that or he never ends up entering the sacred realm at all.  Since it was Link pulling the Master Sword from the pedastle that allowed Ganon to take power there has to be a different way Ganon comes to power, or none at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In FSA you or LTTP you don't enter the SR via the MS and Temple of Time, so maybe an alternate route for Ganon would've been the Moon Pearl and Magic mirror...but that's just speculation...it just to give an example that there are others ways into the SR.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by chronicle@Sep 29 2004, 02:33 PM
Well, No.  Link would still have pulled the sword, things may still have happened that way... The only thing that would change is Link being asleep for seven years... because that part isn't necessary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey...don't matter to me how ya put it...as long as Link goes back to live out his childhood, and he defeats Ganon once more 7yrs later because it's his destiny. That's enough for me.

[Marty]

Tri-Enforcer, I don't see how that quote from Canon proves anything. I'm arguing that from a storytelling point of view the Hero has defeated the villain and is being rewarded, and a reward that involves the hero having to go through another struggle to defeat the villain is not a reward, nor is it an ending to a story.

[Marty]

I'm going to be quite stubborn about this one. Each game is a story unto itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. The end of OoT is the end of a story. So unless I see some real evidence (and not speculation) that Ganondorf needs to be defeated again I won't change my stance on this.

[Marty]

True, but we can't always sit on the fence, sometimes you have to :sword:

[Marty]

I agree with what you're saying about how to learn from debates but if you always change your mind or give in to popular consensus there isn't much point in having an opinion in the first place. I usually use debates to help form an opinion by testing the waters with different ideas but once I've made up my mind I won't be disuaded unless I hear something a little more convincing then what I've already heard.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Marty@Sep 30 2004, 07:09 AM
I'm going to be quite stubborn about this one. Each game is a story unto itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. The end of OoT is the end of a story. So unless I see some real evidence (and not speculation) that Ganondorf needs to be defeated again I won't change my stance on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's really no "real evidence" that Ganon was stuck in the Sacred Realm when Link returned to the past. Please don't try to use LTTP, cuz if that's the case...that wouldn't be much an Imprisoning War, cuz that way....the IW would've been squashed before it even started. That of course if you believe OOT is the IW. Whatever the case may be...you haven't provided real evidence supporting Gannon still being in the Sacred Realm when Link returned to the past for the final time.

[Marty]

Your right, I haven't. I just provided what I thought was a simpler interpretation of the events. But there is no evidence to support it.

[SOAP]

While I don't support this theory being potrayed as fact, I'd say it makes sense... for me at least. If you go with a 12 Monkeys approach, Zelda sending Link back in time would not interfere with what happened in the future. Link returns to his childhood because he's was fated to go to Termina and that's when he dissappears. Later, Ganon comes out of nowhere and takes over Hyrule. That when an older Link wakes up his stasis a defeats him. Zelda sends that Link back his childhood where he then goes to Termina and dissappears and Ganon comes out of no where... see the loop forming here? All that has happened was meant to happen. Link dissappeared, Ganon took over, and Link (albeit a different one) came back to defeat him seven years later. Nothing can change that any attempts to prevent it would only further insure it. At least that's one of my theories.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 02:49 PM
Link returns to his childhood because he's was fated to go to Termina and that's when he dissappears. Later, Ganon comes out of nowhere and takes over Hyrule. That when an older Link wakes up his stasis a defeats him. Zelda sends that Link back his childhood where he then goes to Termina and dissappears and Ganon comes out of no where... see the loop forming here? All that has happened was meant to happen. Link dissappeared, Ganon took over, and Link (albeit a different one) came back to defeat him seven years later. Nothing can change that any attempts to prevent it would only further insure it. At least that's one of my theories.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have a looper in the house...sigh...but that's your prerogative.

Zelda clearly told Link, she'd send him back to his "original" time, that should at least imply that she sent him back to a point where nothing is tampered with...including Ganon still being around in the past instead of the Sacred Realm. This time around...there's no sleeping or time traveling...a loop would defeat the purpose of Zelda sending him back to begin with.

[SOAP]

B) Not if it was meant to happen. Which is why I threw in the 12 Monkeys reference. Zelda sent Link back because they both somehow knew he did not belong in the future... he was meant to go to the past and eventually end up in Termina. Anyways, maybe the new Zelda will clear things up more if turns out to be thirs chapter in the OoT time period.

[Doopliss]

Chronicle, for your theory to be possible, you need to use multiple timelines, because, if Link doesn't pull again the Master Sword and does everything as he did the first time a paradox will be created. He needs everything to be a mistake from Zelda to be there, otherwise his existence wouldn't be logical. No one can fix the mistake Zelda did because the past can't be changed as, if I have understood, you suggest.

Of course I'm not saying that there can't be single timelines.

[SOAP]

^ Oh dammit, now I've gone crossed-eyed.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 03:13 PM
B)  Not if it was meant to happen. Which is why I threw in the 12 Monkeys reference. Zelda sent Link back because they both somehow knew he did not belong in the future... he was meant to go to the past and eventually end up in Termina. Anyways, maybe the new Zelda will clear things up more if turns out to be thirs chapter in the OoT time period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you've paid attention to this thread...I think I posted this somewhere earlier in this thread:

  Thank you, Link.... Thanks to you,
  Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again
  reign in this world... for a time. All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule
  was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of
  trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time
  for me to make up for my mistakes... You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will
  be closed..." Zelda extends her hand to Link and says: "Link, give the Ocarina
  to me. As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it." Link looks
  at the Ocarina and puts it in Zelda's hand, then Zelda puts her other hand on
  top of Link's hand and looks at it with sad eyes. The Zelda says: " When peace
  returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say Good-bye... Now, go home,
  Link. Regain your lost time! Home... where you are supposed to be... the way
  you are supposed to be...

Zelda clealry states...that dragging Link into the whole time travel dibacle was a mistake...she felt guilty for taking part in taking away his childhood, and also she realized time travel wasn't necessary to begin with, cuz it's his destiny to defeat Ganon with or with or without time travelling. So it wasn't meant to happen, but it did happen anyway...and now the people of the other timeline will have to live with it!

[Marty]

I like your looper theory MarioJr cuz that means our Link doesn't have to defeat Ganon again, it falls to the next Link in the loop.

Basically, the ending to this game is so open to interpretation that you'll never be able to find any evidence for a theory. So really its whatever makes sense, and Link having to defeat Ganon a second time will never make sense to me.

[Marty]

Originally posted by chronicle@Oct 2 2004, 02:58 AM
LINK DOESN'T TRAVEL THROUGH TIME UNTIL HE IS AN ADULT!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats true, but thats not what we are arguing against. We are arguing the interpretation of the end of the game.

[Marty]

There is only one what? interpretation? timeline?