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*Sigh* Oot Time Travel


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#1 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:29 PM

ok,

Link does not travel through time when he first pulls the master sword...
He just falls asleep... he is sealed in the temple of light, the only temple not corrupted by Ganondorf.

After the Forest temple, Link is allowed to go back in time to the very moment he pulled the sword and do more stuff... And he does.

He beats Ganon, blah ,blah... Then what? He is sent back in time to the mopment after he pulls the sword.. He puts it back, go to Termina and simply returns to beat Ganon again in seven years... The only thing different is that he is not sealed... Why? He's already mature enough mentally, he just needs to grow up.

Now, why doesn't he simply awaken all the sages right away? Navi, his friend and helper, is gone... Now, he could go through the temples without her, but maybe he feels that he would have too much trouble... Not to mention, he has to grow up some before he can access some of the temple areas... Thus, he goes off on a journey to find her....

Speculation? No... Fact. Well, most of it anyway... I'm not totally sure who he was looking for in MM.

Suggestions? Comments? I don't think it could be any clearer... There's no reason for the timeline to split.

#2 Marty

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:49 PM

The only part I don't agree with is Link having to defeat Ganon for a second time. That just doesn't make any sense from the storytelling perspective. Why would Zelda send Link back to a point where he and the rest of Hyrule will still be in danger? That would mean that the game (and hence the story) has no closure.

The moment Link pulls the sword Ganondorf enters the sacred realm. So if Link is sent back to after this moment then when he puts the sword back in Ganondorf will be sealed inside the Sacred Realm and won't need to be defeated again. A much simpler interpretation and this way the story isn't left open.

#3 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Marty@Sep 28 2004, 08:49 PM
The only part I don't agree with is Link having to defeat Ganon for a second time. That just doesn't make any sense from the storytelling perspective. Why would Zelda send Link back to a point where he and the rest of Hyrule will still be in danger? That would mean that the game (and hence the story) has no closure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Here's why he would have to do that:

(Zelda in at the end pf OOT) Thank you, Link.... Thanks to you,
  Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again
  reign in this world... for a time. All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule
  was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of
  trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time
  for me to make up for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to rest  and close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will
  be closed..." Zelda extends her hand to Link and says: "Link, give the Ocarina
  to me. As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it." Link looks
  at the Ocarina and puts it in Zelda's hand, then Zelda puts her other hand on
  top of Link's hand and looks at it with sad eyes. The Zelda says: " When peace
  returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say Good-bye... Now, go home,
  Link. Regain your lost time! Home... where you are supposed to be... the way
  you are supposed to be...


After defeating Ganon in the future Zelda realized that Link was destined to beat Ganon regardless of time travel. She clearly states that what she dragged Link into was a "mistake". She felt guilty for having Link lose his childhood, and also realized that Link can defeat Ganon without tampering with time, because it's his destiny. So she sends him back to his original time, most likely at the very beginning (hence "original time") or at least sometime just before Ganon enters the Sacred Realm. Now Link can live out his childhood and 7yrs later, or maybe even earlier, he will defeat Ganon once more.

#4 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 12:13 PM

Actually, this also makes it so that Ganon has to find a different means of entering the Sacred Realm right? Either that or he never ends up entering the sacred realm at all. Since it was Link pulling the Master Sword from the pedastle that allowed Ganon to take power there has to be a different way Ganon comes to power, or none at all.

#5 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:26 PM

Originally posted by BlackHawkA100@Sep 29 2004, 11:13 AM
Actually, this also makes it so that Ganon has to find a different means of entering the Sacred Realm right?  Either that or he never ends up entering the sacred realm at all.  Since it was Link pulling the Master Sword from the pedastle that allowed Ganon to take power there has to be a different way Ganon comes to power, or none at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In FSA you or LTTP you don't enter the SR via the MS and Temple of Time, so maybe an alternate route for Ganon would've been the Moon Pearl and Magic mirror...but that's just speculation...it just to give an example that there are others ways into the SR.

#6 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:33 PM

Well, No. Link would still have pulled the sword, things may still have happened that way... The only thing that would change is Link being asleep for seven years... because that part isn't necessary.

#7 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:45 PM

Originally posted by chronicle@Sep 29 2004, 02:33 PM
Well, No.  Link would still have pulled the sword, things may still have happened that way... The only thing that would change is Link being asleep for seven years... because that part isn't necessary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hey...don't matter to me how ya put it...as long as Link goes back to live out his childhood, and he defeats Ganon once more 7yrs later because it's his destiny. That's enough for me.

#8 Marty

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 05:51 PM

Tri-Enforcer, I don't see how that quote from Canon proves anything. I'm arguing that from a storytelling point of view the Hero has defeated the villain and is being rewarded, and a reward that involves the hero having to go through another struggle to defeat the villain is not a reward, nor is it an ending to a story.

#9 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 10:21 PM

No, it's not the end of the story... the thing is, Link goes to Termina after he is sent back... We, as gamers don't complete his entire quest because it WOULD be pointless. We don't have to defeat Ganon again because it would make the game tedious and redundant. Link MUST defeat Ganon a second time, we are just not there to see it happen the exact same way.

#10 Marty

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:09 AM

I'm going to be quite stubborn about this one. Each game is a story unto itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. The end of OoT is the end of a story. So unless I see some real evidence (and not speculation) that Ganondorf needs to be defeated again I won't change my stance on this.

#11 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 09:06 AM

You say that from a story telling POV it doesn't make sense but I assure you it does. Even if Link does in fact have to go through the whole thing again the ending of OoT is indeed an ending. I won't force you to look at it this way, but you could look at it like the end of an episode, that story was neatly tucked away only to go onto another one that, though it may be similar, is yet another story. Link's adventure through time ends and he goes on to live his life (kinda, because we all know that he ends up in Termina, the next episode of the story). But you can look at it either way, I won't come out and directly agree with either theory, but we all have to keep our minds open to all possibilities, not only our own.

#12 Marty

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 09:28 AM

True, but we can't always sit on the fence, sometimes you have to :sword:

#13 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 09:39 AM

Of course, but if I just shot down everything right off I'd never learn anything would I? By paying close attention to everybody's theories and ideas about the series I can further strengthen my own. I was simply saying that I won't insist on arguing until you agree with what I say. (hey, it's early and hard to try and think, I really do agree with what I said so disregard the part that says I won't openly agree or disagree, I do it all the time)

#14 Marty

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 09:48 AM

I agree with what you're saying about how to learn from debates but if you always change your mind or give in to popular consensus there isn't much point in having an opinion in the first place. I usually use debates to help form an opinion by testing the waters with different ideas but once I've made up my mind I won't be disuaded unless I hear something a little more convincing then what I've already heard.

#15 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Marty@Sep 30 2004, 07:09 AM
I'm going to be quite stubborn about this one. Each game is a story unto itself. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. The end of OoT is the end of a story. So unless I see some real evidence (and not speculation) that Ganondorf needs to be defeated again I won't change my stance on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


There's really no "real evidence" that Ganon was stuck in the Sacred Realm when Link returned to the past. Please don't try to use LTTP, cuz if that's the case...that wouldn't be much an Imprisoning War, cuz that way....the IW would've been squashed before it even started. That of course if you believe OOT is the IW. Whatever the case may be...you haven't provided real evidence supporting Gannon still being in the Sacred Realm when Link returned to the past for the final time.

#16 Marty

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:57 AM

Your right, I haven't. I just provided what I thought was a simpler interpretation of the events. But there is no evidence to support it.

#17 Guest_EvilGiegue_*

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:24 PM

There's really no evidence for this topic's theory, either. So don't go around declaring it fact when you have no proof to back it up. This is just one theory among so many others.

#18 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 06:18 AM

No proof? What about the game? It's obvious time travel doesn't happen right away... and Majora's mask proves he doesn't fall asleep again...


I fail to see where there is no proof...

#19 SOAP

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 03:49 PM

While I don't support this theory being potrayed as fact, I'd say it makes sense... for me at least. If you go with a 12 Monkeys approach, Zelda sending Link back in time would not interfere with what happened in the future. Link returns to his childhood because he's was fated to go to Termina and that's when he dissappears. Later, Ganon comes out of nowhere and takes over Hyrule. That when an older Link wakes up his stasis a defeats him. Zelda sends that Link back his childhood where he then goes to Termina and dissappears and Ganon comes out of no where... see the loop forming here? All that has happened was meant to happen. Link dissappeared, Ganon took over, and Link (albeit a different one) came back to defeat him seven years later. Nothing can change that any attempts to prevent it would only further insure it. At least that's one of my theories.

#20 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 02:49 PM
Link returns to his childhood because he's was fated to go to Termina and that's when he dissappears. Later, Ganon comes out of nowhere and takes over Hyrule. That when an older Link wakes up his stasis a defeats him. Zelda sends that Link back his childhood where he then goes to Termina and dissappears and Ganon comes out of no where... see the loop forming here? All that has happened was meant to happen. Link dissappeared, Ganon took over, and Link (albeit a different one) came back to defeat him seven years later. Nothing can change that any attempts to prevent it would only further insure it. At least that's one of my theories.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


We have a looper in the house...sigh...but that's your prerogative.

Zelda clearly told Link, she'd send him back to his "original" time, that should at least imply that she sent him back to a point where nothing is tampered with...including Ganon still being around in the past instead of the Sacred Realm. This time around...there's no sleeping or time traveling...a loop would defeat the purpose of Zelda sending him back to begin with.

#21 SOAP

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:13 PM

B) Not if it was meant to happen. Which is why I threw in the 12 Monkeys reference. Zelda sent Link back because they both somehow knew he did not belong in the future... he was meant to go to the past and eventually end up in Termina. Anyways, maybe the new Zelda will clear things up more if turns out to be thirs chapter in the OoT time period.

#22 Doopliss

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:14 PM

Chronicle, for your theory to be possible, you need to use multiple timelines, because, if Link doesn't pull again the Master Sword and does everything as he did the first time a paradox will be created. He needs everything to be a mistake from Zelda to be there, otherwise his existence wouldn't be logical. No one can fix the mistake Zelda did because the past can't be changed as, if I have understood, you suggest.

Of course I'm not saying that there can't be single timelines.

#23 SOAP

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:20 PM

^ Oh dammit, now I've gone crossed-eyed.

#24 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Mario Jr@Oct 1 2004, 03:13 PM
B)  Not if it was meant to happen. Which is why I threw in the 12 Monkeys reference. Zelda sent Link back because they both somehow knew he did not belong in the future... he was meant to go to the past and eventually end up in Termina. Anyways, maybe the new Zelda will clear things up more if turns out to be thirs chapter in the OoT time period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If you've paid attention to this thread...I think I posted this somewhere earlier in this thread:

  Thank you, Link.... Thanks to you,
  Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again
  reign in this world... for a time. All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule
  was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of
  trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time
  for me to make up for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will
  be closed..." Zelda extends her hand to Link and says: "Link, give the Ocarina
  to me. As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it." Link looks
  at the Ocarina and puts it in Zelda's hand, then Zelda puts her other hand on
  top of Link's hand and looks at it with sad eyes. The Zelda says: " When peace
  returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say Good-bye... Now, go home,
  Link. Regain your lost time! Home... where you are supposed to be... the way
  you are supposed to be...



Zelda clealry states...that dragging Link into the whole time travel dibacle was a mistake...she felt guilty for taking part in taking away his childhood, and also she realized time travel wasn't necessary to begin with, cuz it's his destiny to defeat Ganon with or with or without time travelling. So it wasn't meant to happen, but it did happen anyway...and now the people of the other timeline will have to live with it!

#25 Marty

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 06:25 PM

I like your looper theory MarioJr cuz that means our Link doesn't have to defeat Ganon again, it falls to the next Link in the loop.

Basically, the ending to this game is so open to interpretation that you'll never be able to find any evidence for a theory. So really its whatever makes sense, and Link having to defeat Ganon a second time will never make sense to me.

#26 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 08:58 PM

Chronicle, for your theory to be possible, you need to use multiple timelines, because, if Link doesn't pull again the Master Sword and does everything as he did the first time a paradox will be created. He needs everything to be a mistake from Zelda to be there, otherwise his existence wouldn't be logical. No one can fix the mistake Zelda did because the past can't be changed as, if I have understood, you suggest.

Of course I'm not saying that there can't be single timelines.



Weren't you reading what I typed? He DOES pull the sword! but no paradox is created because HE LEAVES HYRULE WHEN HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASLEEP FOR SEVEN YEARS! He doesn't do anything differen't in Hyrule, so nothing is affected. There is no alternate timeline created, he simply CHANGES the original one enough for him to get to Termina. He simply comes and defeats Ganon in seven years when he is old enough to awaken the sages... No loop, no multi timeline...

Not to be mean, but read what I say.

LINK DOESN'T TRAVEL THROUGH TIME UNTIL HE IS AN ADULT!



It's verysimple, think of it in terms of Back to the Future. These characters go back in time and inadvertantly change small things that bring the changes beck to the future. Only MAJOR CHANGES split the timeline. Since no truly major changes take place, such as Link not pulling the master sword, or Ganandorf getting hit by a bus, Things would happen in much the same way, except Link now has his childhood back... This is also why no time loop happens. The second time through, Zelda doesn't have to send him back. The minor Changes? Instead of Link simply disappearing for seven years into the temple of light, he simply disappears into Termina. Even if he came back fairly early, he couldn't awaken the sages until he was an adult anyway, since most of the puzzles require Adult skills and tools.

Get it?

#27 Marty

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:04 PM

Originally posted by chronicle@Oct 2 2004, 02:58 AM
LINK DOESN'T TRAVEL THROUGH TIME UNTIL HE IS AN ADULT!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats true, but thats not what we are arguing against. We are arguing the interpretation of the end of the game.

#28 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:11 PM

Yes, yes, I understand that, you plucked that statement out of context >.> . The ending we see in the sendig back that Link experiences, there is only one, because ,Link recieves his childhood without changing much and he doesn't need to go back again. We don't see the second part because the only part of that inportant to the story is Termina.

#29 Marty

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:13 PM

There is only one what? interpretation? timeline?

#30 Guest_chronicle_*

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:20 PM

Timeline, one timeline... -.- People interpret how they want because no one seems to get what I am talking about...




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