242 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Well, if a dog is learning things and reacting to stuff it has learned, then surely that's thinking. Can you give an example of how a human thinks beyond this learnt behavior?

Suicide is learnt. You couldn't get a young child to willingly commit suicide unless it has learnt that it may help it, for whatever reason. A society thing.

Animals don't have any reason to believe that suicide will help them. Although they *do* put themselves in obvious danger to save owners, for instance, so in that respect they can end up committing 'suicide' for a reason.

[Selena]

Yay, back to the 'we're more advanced 'cause we can kill ourselves' argument. XP



But yes, animals can definitely go above their instinct like humans can. Using the 'sit' example, telling a herding dog like a collie to sit down or lie down when there's sheep or small animals running around is most assuredly making them go above instinct. Which is why they're usually so twitchy and raring to take off at a sprint while they're waiting. Likewise, telling a retreiver to stay and sit while you throw a toy is making them defy instinct, which for them is essentially "Throw ball, throw ball! WEE, I brought the ball back!" In either case, all the dog wants to do is run after either a ball or another animal, but the know that their owner has commanded them to wait. So they wait, and wait for a release word (and yes, animals can even learn exact words in a human language!).

As for the team of lions thing, it sounds all right to me. Well, maybe not lions. But some other predator. If an animal is wild and not familiar around humans, they're going to see you as a threat if you try to help them out of a situation. Why? 'Cause that's when all the scavengers move in to eat the trapped animal! No need for all that nasty running and pouncing if the prey's already down for the count, after all. So, when, say, an elk falls into an ice lake and see you and five of your buddies approach, it's going to think 'oh snap, I'm dinner.'

As for humans, I think they're quite similar to dogs. Both species are herding animals with social order. There's generally the alpha male of a group. The one you look up to/obey, although not quite at the same level dogs do. The problem is, we can't really demostrate our instincts in the same way animals can, what with the cities and laws and whatnot. We're instantly taught how to behave, although instinct manifests itself as we grow. The pouncing on hot guys/girls being one instinct. The mating one. The fun one.

The only way you could really tell how humans behave without the influence of society is to maybe look at feral children (kids abandoned during their formative years and left to be raised by animals at best). In most cases, they react... just as animals do! They growl, they bite, they're overly cautious and jumpy around other people, throw things... etc.

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animals can't make the association with the shape of the gun and the threat it poses

Psh, my dogs know what a rolled up newspaper means! A swat on the nose with that once, and she's afeared it ever since. And why would WE think a gun was dangerous if we've never seen one in use before? If you can't read and you can't talk, and thus can't learn through books or hearsay.

[Chikara Nadir]

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Well there's suicide. It defies the instinct to live, the impulse to survive.

Ah, what if it's simply that animals have not discovered the means to commit suicide, or else perhaps have found ways to be happy with life, rather than giving it all up? And some animals DO just die, not from any real causes that are intentional, accidental, or really natural. If their mate or owner dies, they sometimes just...give up, as though from a broken heart.

And what about when animals find love in species that are most certainly not their own? For instance- Koko the gorilla keeping pet cats. As I recall, when one of the cats escaped and was in a fatal accident, and they tried to explain to Koko what had happened through sign language that the gorilla had learned, it became very frustrated at trying to communicate/translate its feelings, but what trainers were most certain of was that Koko was very sad. Koko is not the only animal to have grown such attachments to other species, without it being an obviously parental attachment.

I like this:

Wikipedia said

In August 2004, Koko was in the news again due to a toothache. She communicated that she was in pain, and according to her handlers was able to indicate her pain level on a scale of 1 to 10.

[Fyxe]

Gorillas are so unbelievably smart, and clearly are able to think. Most people here have probably seen the new King Kong film... Kong's behavior was all based on close study of real gorillas. Obviously he was personified to a degree, he did have a human actor doing the movement and stuff, but from what I've seen of gorillas in documentaries and suchforth, it wasn't far off from natural gorilla behavior.

Which is what made the film so sad.

On another note, I was listening to Radio 5 this morning and they had a marine biologist talking about sharks, and giving details on how they communicate with each other, and even how they have distinct personalities.

[deuterium]

Whales are a special species to me (well, all species are special). Just listening to them speaks of intelligence. I'm horrified that most of them (if not all) are threatened or endangered.

I'm also horrified the way sharks are treated. Their fins cut off for the market and the shark is left to drown.

Edited by deuterium, 03 January 2006 - 04:12 PM.

[Alakhriveion]

Fyxe, on Jan 3 2006, 02:41 PM, said:

Gorillas are so unbelievably smart, and clearly are able to think. Most people here have probably seen the new King Kong film... Kong's behavior was all based on close study of real gorillas.

I've never heard that. From what I know there was less of that put in to "Kong" than there was in to "The Lion King."

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Obviously he was personified to a degree, he did have a human actor doing the movement and stuff, but from what I've seen of gorillas in documentaries and suchforth, it wasn't far off from natural gorilla behavior.

That's because gorilla behavior isn't far off from human behavior. The difference, what sets us apart from the beasts, is the last time I fought biplanes with my bare hands on top of the Empire State building, I won.

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deuterium
Whales are a special species to me (well, all species are special). Just listening to them speaks of intelligence. I'm horrified that most of them (if not all) are threatened or endangered.

You speak whale? How can you say the fact we enjoy the sounds they make speaks of intellegence?

[deuterium]

Well, I don't speak whale but when studying them you can more or less figure what they are communicating. I think they are very intelligent just like dolphins and many other organisms.

Edited by deuterium, 03 January 2006 - 05:20 PM.

[Alakhriveion]

[quote name='deuterium' post='203159' date='Jan 3 2006, 05:20 PM']Well, I don't speak whale but when studying them you can more or less figure what they are communicating.[/quote] Not really. We're actually no good at just telling if something is communication, think of dialup sounds. Just hurts your ears.[/quote]I think they are very intelligent just like dolphins and many other organisms.
[/quote]
Based on... nothing? Not that I disagree, whales are among the least stupid of dumb animals, but you can support this better.

[Selena]

http://oceanlink.isl...ml#anchor902503

Whale communication. One of many sites, but it worked well enough for me. Coulda sworn they mentioned something about this very thing on Animal Planet yesterday, but alas, I've forgotten exactly what they said about it.

'Fyxe' said

Gorillas are so unbelievably smart, and clearly are able to think. Most people here have probably seen the new King Kong film... Kong's behavior was all based on close study of real gorillas. Obviously he was personified to a degree, he did have a human actor doing the movement and stuff, but from what I've seen of gorillas in documentaries and suchforth, it wasn't far off from natural gorilla behavior.

As much as I like giant apes who wreak havoc on things, it probably isn't best to use an example from the movies to show how gorillas behave. Especially since some of us haven't seen that new movie. The last Kong I saw was the stop motion animation one from RKO. XP


But bouncing off Chik's example, yeah, the great apes all show pretty clear signs of intelligence and learning. It was either Animal Planet or the Discovery Channel (I forget which, but they're close enough) who had a special on chimps using computer screens to spell certain words in relation to pictures. Nothing big, of course. Just stuff like 'cat' and 'grape' and whatnot. Then they got like soda and candy as a reward. Spoiled little lab monkeys.

[deuterium]

Based on what? Try the years of research from many marine biologists, biologists, ecologists and oceanographers to start with. They all state that whales are very intelligent.

[Doopliss]

That's true, but their societies are only complex enough to satisfy the species' basical needs.

[Alakhriveion]

deuterium, on Jan 3 2006, 09:30 PM, said:

Based on what? Try the years of research from many marine biologists, biologists, ecologists and oceanographers to start with. They all state that whales are very intelligent.

So when you said "Just listening to them speaks of intellegence" you meant "Many authorities assert that whales are intellegent?"

[Chikara Nadir]

Doopliss, on Jan 3 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

That's true, but their societies are only complex enough to satisfy the species' basical needs.

So the thing that makes humans higher than other species is that we're greedy and constantly want more than just our basic necessities? XP

Really, that's visible in all sorts of species behaviour- alpha males or females in packs dominating the others, bullying them to get the best food/territory or whatever, though our greed (like theirs) is perhaps one of the most instinctual things about us- we want to have the best so that we can survive more successfully and attract the better mates. You can argue that this isn't totally true- we'll buy a gaming device or a wall poster or whatever because it's something that we personaly want. But wanting the best jobs to afford good clothing, cars, housing, etc- it's also entirely about comfort (which any halfway intelligent animal appreciates), attracting popularity (strengthening our societal status), and having that popularity result in getting a girl/boyfriend who will eventually make a good breeding partner (we want to be able to lure someone strong, attractive, and intelligent to hopefully make babies that also carry some of those traits).


And Alak, you aren't really adding anything to the conversation with your current line of questioning. It's like having someone say "I think apples are great" and interrogating them with a response of "Oh, so you don't like oranges then? Where's your evidence that apples are the best?" Anyone can look up information on whale studies, and Selena even offered you a link to such studies. Please don't pick on the new member without a decent counter-claim. Your last post was little more than rewording deuterium's post into the form of a question to spit back at him.

[Fyxe]

Alakhriveion, on Jan 3 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

I've never heard that. From what I know there was less of that put in to "Kong" than there was in to "The Lion King."

I've heard the exact opposite. Andy Sirkis (or however you spell it) spent ages observing and spending time with gorillas to get the part right. I know that's a fact. Remember there was one guy acting the part, so he's the one doing all the gorilla-imitating work.

Have you actually SEEN King Kong?

By the way, Selena, go see it. It's neato. You get your money's worth. And it's a way of proving if you have a soul or not; if the ending doesn't upset you, you'll be a robot.

[Cendamos]

Humans invented pornographic images, I don't see Rover makin' any nude calenders of Lassie.
And then we invented the internet to share our pornography.

This is obviously, why we are superior to all creatures (save one) including but not limited to felines, canines, elephants, platypusses, dinosaurs, lions, tigers, bears, gophers, lizards, cows, and all that other stuff kill and eat

The only creature superior to the humanbeing are the majestic and noble ants. They are the most effective warmongers ever.

Take for example this giant ant procreating with a yellow car.


The car is obviously scared out of it's wits. Why?
Because Ants kick ass.



I mean look at that guy, he is probably shitting a brick or two in envy of that Ant's awesome hair.
It's a shame we can't have hair like that, because we're not ants.


You know what? When I grow up I'm going to be an ant. I ants.

Edited by Cendamos, 04 January 2006 - 07:38 AM.

[deuterium]

Alakhriveion, on Jan 4 2006, 12:45 AM, said:

So when you said "Just listening to them speaks of intellegence" you meant "Many authorities assert that whales are intellegent?"

Exactly.

[Alakhriveion]

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I've heard the exact opposite. Andy Sirkis (or however you spell it) spent ages observing and spending time with gorillas to get the part right.

Oh, Google says you get that one. OK.

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I know that's a fact.

WOAH!

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Remember there was one guy acting the part, so he's the one doing all the gorilla-imitating work.

Actually, because of the nature of the animation, he and the CGIographers both did work on the gorilla. There are some parts of the movie which look just a little bit the same as parts of the original, which had the scientific value of Star Trek. Also, remember Serkis did a lot of work for Gollum, which is a kindasorta human character. Us monkeys ain't all that different. In fact, ape intellgence is the most reasonable argument for animal intellegence you'll find.

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Have you actually SEEN King Kong?

Have you ever actually SEEN a gorilla? Or seminal 1960's rock band Cream? Here are some pictures to help you out:

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Deuterium

Exactly.

So why not say "I've read whales are very intellegent, and I believe it" instead of something completely unrelated?

[deuterium]

Alakhriveion, how can what I stated be unrelated to this thread? Also, scientists believe we evolved from a species of the Great Apes not Monkeys.

[Alakhriveion]

deuterium, on Jan 4 2006, 08:17 PM, said:

Alakhriveion, how can what I stated be unrelated to this thread?

It isn't. It IS unrelated to what you later claimed you were trying to say.

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Also, scientists believe we evolved from a species of the Great Apes not Monkeys.

I know my simians, D. I'm aware of the fact that calling greater apes monkeys is incorrect. I also know that "us monkeys" should be "we monkeys" and "ain't" should be "aren't."

[Doopliss]

I believe they say they're intelligent because they're able to solve problems more efficiently than other animals. Don't worry about Alakhriveion acting strangely, it takes some time to get used to his peculiar sense of humor.

Ah, and I almost forgot. Cendamos, we all know the Three-Legged Flamingo is superior to ants.

Edited by Doopliss, 04 January 2006 - 09:28 PM.

[Fyxe]

Alakhriveion, on Jan 5 2006, 12:10 AM, said:

WOAH!

Ok, how can I put this as nicely as possible... *Clears her throat* Bog off, you flying jerk.

Yes. Flying.

[Alakhriveion]

Fyxe, on Jan 5 2006, 12:56 AM, said:

Ok, how can I put this as nicely as possible... *Clears her throat* Bog off, you flying jerk.

Not without some arrogantly assertive assumption abstinence.

[Chikara Nadir]

People. Stop behaving at the maturity level of infants. Stop insulting one another as though it can be used as a valid arguement. As for you, Alak- stop trying to filibuster people into submission without actually adding to the topic!

[deuterium]

Alakhriveion, on Jan 4 2006, 07:53 PM, said:

I know my simians, D. I'm aware of the fact that calling greater apes monkeys is incorrect. I also know that "us monkeys" should be "we monkeys" and "ain't" should be "aren't."

That's good and I wasn't trying to ridicule or insult your grammer. If I was the type of person that does that I would have stated it.

[Fyxe]

Chikara Nadir, on Jan 5 2006, 07:39 AM, said:

People. Stop behaving at the maturity level of infants. Stop insulting one another as though it can be used as a valid arguement. As for you, Alak- stop trying to filibuster people into submission without actually adding to the topic!

Actually, I was just joshing around, because Alak was being a big poo-poo head.

[Toan]

Regardless, the immaturity here needs to stop.

[Keen]

In response to the original post in this thread, I agree that life should be valued, but I assert that death should be valued as well, for in fearing death, you are fearing the Lord. Go to his arms when he should call you forth, and be not afraid.

[Fyxe]

Who let Preachy McPreacherson in here?

I do hate it when people just assume that everyone believes in god.

Seriously, 'be not afraid'? You mean 'don't be afraid', right? 'When he should call you forth'? What? When should he? How are we meant to know when he should?

Edited by Fyxe, 07 January 2006 - 03:21 PM.

[Keen]

Hah!

I'm not even Christian!
I just like the way it sounds.

[Alakhriveion]

Fyxe, on Jan 7 2006, 03:19 PM, said:

Who let Preachy McPreacherson in here?

Strike one.

And, not speaking as a mod, Yeah.