81 replies to this topic

[GJ Skywalker]

But yes, Zelda made a mistake when she told Link to open the way to the SR. But who is most responsible? Zelda, who told Link to do it? Or Link, who actually DID it? However, Zelda was NOT stupid when she revealed herself to Link. She had to do that. It was Ganondorf who was smart. He says so himself.

Yeah but would Link have done it if Zelda (who had the idea of opening the way to th Sacred Realm, and probably knew that thepotential Hero hadn't come of age) didn't tell him to?

[Husse]

LA: Zelda wasn't in this game. However, it could be argued that Marin is Link's dream version of Zelda. And as you know, Marin played an important role in the game.

Actually, Marin was really LESS than helpful, IMO, in that one. She's one of my favorite characters, but in terms of her helping, she was ratha a turd.

And why are people arguing that her role in the battle with Ganon is unimportant? You say that Link had already defeated Ganon when Zelda used her power to hold him? Bah. That's BS. Nintendo would not have put it there if it wasn't important. Remember that Ganon got up the first time? Zelda definitely made a difference. And the MS didn't glow until after she shot Ganon...

Actually, they might have put it in there if it wasn't important, just for show, but I agree. Fact is, folks, with that pretty triangle on his hand, Ganon is immortal, and if it wasn't for Zelda, there'd be no way to seal 'im.

But yes, Zelda made a mistake when she told Link to open the way to the SR. But who is most responsible? Zelda, who told Link to do it? Or Link, who actually DID it? However, Zelda was NOT stupid when she revealed herself to Link. She had to do that. It was Ganondorf who was smart. He says so himself.

Link was not guilty for following dumb orders. He WAS guilty for not LOOKING BEHIND HIM to see Ganondorf standin' in the doorway. Moron.

And this is one point where I have to agree with the others that Zelda was foolish. But hey, she waited 7 years, she must have been dying to tell him everything. She just...didn't pick the most DISCREET place to do it....Moron.

And, you know, I never had thought about MM. She really did save his scrawny hinder. All in all, though, I think Zelda gets a little more independent with each game. In WW, she really saved Link's scrawny hinder, several times, and showed she was athletic and intelligent. (Some things just couldn't be avoided.) The only dumb thing she EVER did in WW was shoot you...and that's not story, that's gameplay mechanics.

In TP, I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda was truly amazing fighting-wise, if this trend continues. Or, if the theme in this one, (which it very well could be,) is "looks don't matter," she could be....*gulp* Midna. Then she'd be kicking booty in a totally creepy fashion!

[MikePetersSucks]

LOZ-Ok, you can make a case here. She has little to no magic and she gets pwned.
AOL-Ok, now to be fair, the hoe was put into a magical coma centuries prior.
LTTP-Now listen up! Unlike the other Maidens, atleast Zelda managed to remain safe fo a good portion of the game. She managed to summon a hero to bust her out, was brave enough to treck through the sewers, and...chilled out in a church.

LA-not even in this one.
OOT-Hussy brings up a good point. She's fucking ten years old, and yet she orchestrated Ganon's downfall (more or less) and c'mon! She wasn't in distress until the final battle! SHIEK! She managed to stay off Ganon's trail for seven solid years. That's tyght.

MM-not really involved.
TWW-see OOT. Except a pirate. Tetra kicked ass, but Ganon had an army. Come on now. and hey, atleast she got to help kick his ass in the end.

FS-see LOZ
FSA-now to be fair, she was kinda ambushed by a demon that came out of her own redirected portal.

TMC-She got turned to stone. And besides, TMC is a lot less mature than the other incarnations of Zelda to the point of reminding me of Marle from Chrono Trigger. She didn't have the same insight the others did.

OOX-see LOZ

TP-um....OMG! A SWORD!

[Hero of Legend]

Yeah but would Link have done it if Zelda (who had the idea of opening the way to th Sacred Realm, and probably knew that thepotential Hero hadn't come of age) didn't tell him to?

As long as you had the Ocarina in your possession, I thought Ganondorf could never enter the Sacred Realm, but...something I could never expect happened... After you opened the door of time, the Master Sword sealed you away in the Sacred Realm...

She didn't know. In fact, I don't think Zelda knew about the MS at all. Zelda is a good person. She would have told Link if she knew about it. Also remember that no one had entered the chamber behind the DoT since the Sages sealed it. Not even Navi knew that the MS was there.

Furthermore, Ganondorf could not have known about it either because he would have realised that he could never pull the MS from the PoT.

And if Link had not collected the Spiritual Stones, Ganondorf would have.

Therefore you cannot blame Zelda for that.

Actually, Marin was really LESS than helpful, IMO, in that one. She's one of my favorite characters, but in terms of her helping, she was ratha a turd.

Then we have opposite opinions on this matter.

I dislike Marin. What does her character bring LA? Some one sided romance... <_<

But she is helpful. She found Link on the beach, she helped him get past a walrus, and of course, she taught him the Ballad of the Wind Fish. That was important, eh?

Actually, they might have put it in there if it wasn't important, just for show, but I agree. Fact is, folks, with that pretty triangle on his hand, Ganon is immortal, and if it wasn't for Zelda, there'd be no way to seal 'im.

Yes, of course it was "for show". So was the glowing MS and the fact that Link stabbed Ganon in the head. However, they are in the game and therefore they are important.

As I said, Ganon got up the first time. He didn't after Zelda shot him. Therefore it made a difference. And you are correct about the sealing. In fact, it was Zelda (by herself) who sealed Ganon. The other Sages only drew him into the SR.

And this is one point where I have to agree with the others that Zelda was foolish. But hey, she waited 7 years, she must have been dying to tell him everything. She just...didn't pick the most DISCREET place to do it....Moron.

I don't think it would have mattered where Zelda reveled herself. Ganondorf most likely sensed her magically. And the only reason that she did it was becuase Link was ready to defeat the King of Evil. Her only mistake was to underestimate him... Obviously she didn't expect that Ganondorf would capture her in a crystal.

However, judging from Ganondorf's speech you cannot blame Zelda for this either.

Princess Zelda...you foolish traitor! I commend you for avoiding my pursuit for seven long years. But you let your guard down... I knew you would appear if I let this kid wander around! My only mistake was to slightly underestimate the power of this kid... No... It was not the kid's power I misjudged, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage!

Ganondorf is smart in OoT.

In TP, I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda was truly amazing fighting-wise, if this trend continues. Or, if the theme in this one, (which it very well could be,) is "looks don't matter," she could be....*gulp* Midna. Then she'd be kicking booty in a totally creepy fashion!

Yeah, I can't wait for TP! But I would like it more if Midna was a new character. Still, it would be kinda cool if she was Zelda.

LOZ-Ok, you can make a case here. She has little to no magic and she gets pwned.

Yes, she doesn't have any powers in some games. That is why Shadow Link's argument fails when it comes to them.

TMC-She got turned to stone. And besides, TMC is a lot less mature than the other incarnations of Zelda to the point of reminding me of Marle from Chrono Trigger. She didn't have the same insight the others did.

That's probably because TMC Link and Zelda were the youngest of their incarnations.

[Koji]

Are you serious? This argument has gone two pages? What the hell? Who cares if Zelda is helpless or not? If she didn't get captured, Link would have next to nothing to do. End of story. Does that mean she's helpless? Not necessarily. Next to the block-pushing puzzles, Zelda being captured is the second most important part of the Zelda games. I personally don't give a damn if she walked up to Ganon, threw herself into his arms and said "You fiend! You've captured me!" Zelda captured = fun game to play. Stop arguing or I've lost all respect for you people. (oo....big threat, eh?)

[MikePetersSucks]

Fine. Lose your respect. Go on, shoo. *little wavy thing*

[Isis]

Koji's right, Zelda's actions are simply a part of the story-line and if she fended for herself, we wouldn't need Link...which would be tragic.

[mohammedali]

mido would still hate link for being chosen to serve the deku tree instead of him. and you could have good zelda games without zelda getting captured. links awakeneing, oracle of seasons and ages. see good games no zelda being captured. unless u played the linked version of the oracle games, then yes zelda is captured but u dont find that out until the end so it sorta doesnt matter much. all im saying is link could save someone besides zelda. zelda needs to learn to do stuff on her own and not hope link will show up. zelda hoping for link is like the poor people hoping for more welfare. yeah its there to help out but not to save u all thetime from your own lack of effort. something zelda needs to learn. however I woulndt mind seeing zelda in the market on food stamps.....

Actually, she doesn't get kidenapped that easily.
In LoZ she split up her Triforce because Ganon invaded the whole castle, so she couldn't compete. I think it was a clever desision because had she taken the chance and fought - sure she might have won and not bothered Link, but had she lost then all would be doomed for Hyrule with no hope. By splitting the Triforce, she let someone better at fighting take on Ganons forces bit by bit, and then Ganon himself - and it paid off. See, she didn't get the Triforce of Wisdom for making rash decisions
In aLttP she was clever to hide for quite a while. Had she not got kiddenapped, Link would still have to do much of what he did anyway.
In OoT she got suprise attacked with Link right in front of her. Can't blame her there.
And finally, in WW her kidenapping was pointless as Link had to get rid of Ganon at some point. In fact it ended up helping Link, as Zelda could use her bow when she got up. This wouldn't have happened if Zelda was put in an ultra safe place where Ganon would never find her.

Mohammed Ali

Mohammed Ali

[Husse]

You're right, Isis, this is silly. We need a feeble Zelda b/c we need Link. And he is teh hotness.

[Isis]

Hot is an understatement

[Isis]

Yes, in real life Zelda would be an aggravating person at times but I definitely prefer her to be helpless 'cos I do not like Heroins ... Imagine if she was tough and was the main character...*shivers*

[Hero of Legend]

but can any of u not agree with me on the simple fact that most of the time she is rather helpless? as someone pointed out all of zeldas accomplishments earlier, it just proved my point. if she was capable of all that, then she could have been more helpful in some situations.

Oh course she is "helpless" in some situations, that is a part of the game. I can be compared to the fact that the King of Evil is defeated by a kid.

And no. As I said, Zelda is not always a fighter. In the games where she has powers, she always helps Link fight Ganon. And in the other ones she helps him in a different way.

Yes, in real life Zelda would be an aggravating person at times but I definitely prefer her to be helpless 'cos I do not like Heroins ... Imagine if she was tough and was the main character...*shivers*

Sorry, but Zelda is definitely a heroine. The games make that obvious.

And I would love to play as her in future games (TP)...

[Husse]

We know she's heroic, like a heroine.

Isis meant the main character. Like in Final Fantasy. A sword-wielding trash-talking "I am woman, hear me roar," man-hating Gerudowoman thong-wearing slut.

Not a heroic woman. A "see above." Right, Isis?

[Husse]

Thanks...I think.....Must've been a compliment?

[Chikara Nadir]

You know what I wanna see? A real legend of ZELDA, not just a legend of Link saving Zelda. Give us a game where either Link and Zelda fight equally throughout the entire game (if not together, then switching back and forth between them trying to reach the main goal)- or give us a game where Zelda actually runs the show. I'm not asking for her to suddenly start toting guns and wearing hotpants like Yuna over in Final Fantasy X-2, I'd just like to see her using her obvious wisdom and whatever skill she may have to play the biggest part in saving the day. Sure, you can have Link and whoever else helping out, but...have it from her point of view, have it actually be her story.

[Skyreus]

i agree. if its going to be called "legend of Zelda" and focus mostly on Link its kind of strange isnt it? they should Call it Legend of Link if zelda isnt going to start playing a more major role.

She does play a major role though, in all the major Zelda games anyway. The fact is the legends do revolve around her as she and Ganon are more are less the destined catalysts while Link just happens to be the person that got dragged into things. She is one of the ancenstors of the sages that sealed Ganon in aLttP, she's the one that had the visions and acted against Ganon in OoT, she is the one person that Ganon was looking for in tWW, and she is the person who held the Triforce of Wisdom and split it into eight pieces in the original LoZ. It's the Legend of Zelda because she's the catalyst to all that occurs and the stories in the main Zelda games do revolve around her. I expect the same in Twilight Princess. Link gets dragged into a situation he wasn't expecting and ultimately the problem revolves around Zelda in some way whether she be the target, the one acting to solve the problem, or something else.

Also remember that Link is supposed to be us... the player (note: notice the name "Link" itself, the player's "link" to the game... get it?). We're basically just the person that enters. The game revolves around the world Link is in and rarely ever revolves around Link himself.
Through fate or (mis)fortune... Link just happens to be the destined child who suddenly gets thrown into things .

EDIT: And if we're thinking about uselessness what about Link? I mean the kid can't even figure out where to go ever since the NES Zelda's for christ sake. He had to seek advice from Zelda or Sahasrahla in aLttP, he had to be guided by Zelda, Navi and Rauru in OoT, and the King of the Red Lions in tWW. The only time he really actually made a move on his own accord is going to the Forbidden Fortress and we all know what a smart decision that was. I mean despite being the courageous hero and all the poor kid can't even figure out how to start saving the world

[Chikara Nadir]

So you're saying that Zelda knew from the day that she able to comprehend the world, that she was destined to run away from evil and possibly be kidnapped by it while waiting for some crazy kid in green to show up and save her?

Zelda may be a princess- and therefore privilaged, but that doesn't mean she can't be capable. Padme Amidala could kick butt, for instance. And the amount of wealth and influence Zelda has should be able to get her access to more weaponry and magic- like how Bruce Wayne had the money to become Batman.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'd like to see a game entirely revolving around Zelda, but it'd at least be nice if she had as much screen time and chances to fight or otherwise show her abilities as Link.

[Skyreus]

So you're saying that Zelda knew from the day that she able to comprehend the world, that she was destined to run away from evil and possibly be kidnapped by it while waiting for some crazy kid in green to show up and save her?

I'm going to assume this is a joke response mostly... if it's not then I'd have to question the point of this. Nevertheless you're really spinning and stretching my words.

Regardless, to add to that... she wasn't even really running from evil in The Wind Waker even though she was being searched for and didn't in Ocarina of Time until near the end of the first arc of the story (remember she also tried to stop Ganondorf, although that didn't work out due to a certain unexpected occurance).

Zelda may be a princess- and therefore privilaged, but that doesn't mean she can't be capable. Padme Amidala could kick butt, for instance. And the amount of wealth and influence Zelda has should be able to get her access to more weaponry and magic- like how Bruce Wayne had the money to become Batman.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'd like to see a game entirely revolving around Zelda, but it'd at least be nice if she had as much screen time and chances to fight or otherwise show her abilities as Link.

Other people already answered this already so I'll sum it up simply...
Ocarina of Time she used her knowledge and visions to try to guide Link to find the stones and as Shiek assisted Link while evading Ganondorf. Near the end she also used her spells to unseal doors and seal away Ganon.
A Link to the Past she helped provide advice to Link throughout the adventure despite the fact that she got captured (see, even when captured she still has her uses).
The Wind Waker she helped Link get into the Forbidden Fortress and save him from Ganondorf when Link first walked up to him with the Master Sword. She also helped Link out in the final battle. I mean... that's basically what you're asking for right? For her to take some action and fight? She basically helped out in the battle against the last boss and saved Link once.
Even in The Minish Cap, which is one thing no one seemed to have mentioned yet, she was the only one who tried to contest against Vaati's power at the beginning with her magic. Just that Vaati happened to be more powerful than her and thus turned her into stone.

Amidala? She really didn't have as much action time, nor were her action sequences as influential outside of self preservation moments, as Tetra/Zelda was in The Wind Waker (did she really help out in the battle against the Sith? Perhaps as a politician to some degree although it was more like being manipulated by Palpatine in early parts). She also provided less advice than Zelda did in A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time, so there goes any wisdom argument as well.

She does what she's capable of doing given what powers she has. She has magic in some games, but that doesn't mean she should go headstrong into things especially when the enemy apparently has even stronger magic.
Considering she has the Triforce of Wisdom I think it's not a bad thing that she basically played the role of a guide in Ocarina of Time as well.

Also, to target one of your older quotes... she basically did run the entire show in Ocarina of Time. She helped fill in the rest of the story about the Triforce to Link (that began with the Deku Tree) and sent him on the mission to find the three spiritual stones, then helped to guide him again as Shiek.

She plays her role well enough. The thread seems to make her out to be useless but the fact is she plays a huge role in most of the games (and some may very well argue that her role in Ocarina of Time, while consisting of less "action," fit her role better as the possessor of the Triforce of Wisdom). I don't even see it to be too big of a deal that she's physically less capable than Link, as long as she plays a direct role in the story and provides help for the hero all will be well.

We'll always play as Link, that's our "link" into the game for us to be the hero. Zelda will always be a catalyst and she will continue her role as one of the major characters that guide the story, playing her part whatever it may be. She'll never get as much screen time as Link simply because... we're not supposed to be her. Plus the whole thing about her handling things on her own has already been argued against in the first page, if she is so physically capable why does the player even need to do anything? And please... don't respond saying that we will play as Zelda as that's kind of destroying the point of Link...

I also feel that it is mostly her story in the recent main games. Link has a few personal side stories in Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker, but that takes a backseat to the bigger scope of things. It's really hard to argue that Ocarina of Time isn't her story seeing as she's the princess that is constantly mentioned during the second arc of the story, she guided Link both young and old, and it's her kingdom and her castle that was overrun. The only thing missing is seeing the world through her point of view, which really isn't right for a Zelda game anyway.
The Wind Waker... really wasn't anyone's story really but rather a story about the Kingdom of Hyrule itself. Zelda was still a catalyst in everything in the end. Outside of arguably Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, both side stories, the games never did have the world revolve around Link.

A character can still be a central even if he/she doesn't vanquish the evil in the end, as long as her part in the story is very important. Take a look at Sleeping Beauty for example, she's obviously the central character in the story but it was ultimately the prince who came and vanquished Malificent (with the help of the fairies) and saved the day.

Really, the original poster's arguments were kind of debunked in the first page

[Hero of Legend]

I mostly agree with Skyreus. Although there is a few things I must bring up...

The fact is the legends do revolve around her as she and Ganon are more are less the destined catalysts while Link just happens to be the person that got dragged into things.

No. AoL, ALttP, OoT, OoA/OoS and TWW all state that Link is the chosen Hero destined to fight evil. I dunno where this "Link is just a normal guy" theory came from, but it is proven wrong by the games.

Also remember that Link is supposed to be us... the player (note: notice the name "Link" itself, the player's "link" to the game... get it?). We're basically just the person that enters. The game revolves around the world Link is in and rarely ever revolves around Link himself.

Yes, Miyamoto says so. But is it actually what the games say? The truth is that Link is his own character. The other characters of the game interact with HIM, not the player. Like in TWW when Medli says: "Oh, so you're the fellow with the green clothes and strange-shaped hat?". In reality, there is no difference between Link and any other main character, except that we don't see Link's dialogue. Besides, TWW has already destroyed the "link" by allowing the player to control other characters (Medli and Makar), so...

She plays her role well enough. The thread seems to make her out to be useless but the fact is she plays a huge role in most of the games (and some may very well argue that her role in Ocarina of Time, while consisting of less "action," fit her role better as the possessor of the Triforce of Wisdom).

Zelda had some "action" in OoT as well. She helped out during the final battle, just like in TWW. And she probably killed quite a few enemies as Sheik, juding by the official art of her and Link fighting enemies. Also, she has a sword in TP... I think the creators see her as some kind of wise warrior princess.

We'll always play as Link, that's our "link" into the game for us to be the hero. Zelda will always be a catalyst and she will continue her role as one of the major characters that guide the story, playing her part whatever it may be. She'll never get as much screen time as Link simply because... we're not supposed to be her. Plus the whole thing about her handling things on her own has already been argued against in the first page, if she is so physically capable why does the player even need to do anything? And please... don't respond saying that we will play as Zelda as that's kind of destroying the point of Link...

As I said, we have already broken that "link". And technically we will play as Midna in TP. So I don't see why they wouldn't let us play as Zelda in future games. Personally I would love it if that happened…

[SOAP]

Hello. I'm crashing this party late. Amnyways, why is this guy/girl/whatever judging Zelda on a game that came out almost a DECADE ago? Every 3D Zelda game since, she's improved drastically. In MM, she gives Link the Ocarina of Time which proves VERY useful in his quest without ever knowing (from what we can telling) that he'd end up in some parrellel world. In TWW, she was on quest of her own as Tetra, didn't need to be rescued till the very end, then even helped take Ganondorf down with the Light Arrows. In the upcoming game she has a friggin sword of her own and looks like she's ready to do some serious fighting. Okay, so she's a bit more ditsy in the 2D games but most of those were made by Capcom anyways ad they're emphasis is more on gameplay, not character development. All of this has been mentioned before in this thread. But even so, with all that evidence I can't comprehend why this thread even exist! Seriously dude! Have you been living under a rock!?

[Skyreus]

No. AoL, ALttP, OoT, OoA/OoS and TWW all state that Link is the chosen Hero destined to fight evil. I dunno where this "Link is just a normal guy" theory came from, but it is proven wrong by the games.

Well, maybe it was just my wording but I know that Link isn't just some "normal guy" and he was destined to confront things. Just saying that in the argument is that Link really isn't the central figure, but he's the person that's thrust into the conflit through the two catalyst figures.

Yes, Miyamoto says so. But is it actually what the games say? The truth is that Link is his own character. The other characters of the game interact with HIM, not the player. Like in TWW when Medli says: "Oh, so you're the fellow with the green clothes and strange-shaped hat?". In reality, there is no difference between Link and any other main character, except that we don't see Link's dialogue. Besides, TWW has already destroyed the "link" by allowing the player to control other characters (Medli and Makar), so...

Disagree. The same happens with any other game that has someone creating the main character, in fact in some games the entire story revolves around them (see: Baldur's Gate, Suikoden I&II).
Also remember that in tWW Medli and Makar were utilized through the command song, just as Link did for the statues. So I don't necessarily agree that we were ever directly in control of them, just like we were never really the seagulls. I think a better example would've been Kafei from Majora's Mask but that one was both a side story and only a very small part in it (although probably the biggest side quest in the game).

As I said, we have already broken that "link". And technically we will play as Midna in TP. So I don't see why they wouldn't let us play as Zelda in future games. Personally I would love it if that happened…

Actually we're playing as the Wolf with Midna riding on his back . We still never broke the Link so to speak, just manipulated it a bit (in tWW, not really in TP from what we've seen so far since we're still mainly playing as the wolf).

I'm not completely against playing as Zelda, but if we ever do it should be a really minor playable role and we definitely shouldn't see the story from her point of view. Plus if we're to switch I don't think it should be just so we can "play as Zelda" but rather make it really closely connected to Link's quest, such as his role in guiding Makar and Medli through the dungeons to their destination. For the most part I think it's better suited that if Zelda sees combat it should be through either cut-scenes or as a support role during a fight, like in tWW and the end of OoT.

[Husse]

You know what I wanna see? A real legend of ZELDA, not just a legend of Link saving Zelda. Give us a game where either Link and Zelda fight equally throughout the entire game (if not together, then switching back and forth between them trying to reach the main goal)- or give us a game where Zelda actually runs the show. I'm not asking for her to suddenly start toting guns and wearing hotpants like Yuna over in Final Fantasy X-2, I'd just like to see her using her obvious wisdom and whatever skill she may have to play the biggest part in saving the day. Sure, you can have Link and whoever else helping out, but...have it from her point of view, have it actually be her story.

Uh. Uh. If she's not wielding swords, it's not Zelda. (Game, not character.) What's the gamer supposed to do? Use their powers of "wisdom" to help Link, who everyone, even a feminist Zelda-fan, I'll bet, would rather be playing. I wouldn't have a problem with BRIEFLY playing as Zelda, but a game should NOT be centered on her.

i agree. if its going to be called "legend of Zelda" and focus mostly on Link its kind of strange isnt it? they should Call it Legend of Link if zelda isnt going to start playing a more major role.

Dur. Zelda passes the legend down among the ages. It's because of her, (if you're a single-timelinist,) that everyone knows the legend of the Hero of Time at all. It's for her that Link originally starts on his quest in most cases. Hence the name, if it were the Legend of Link, it wouldn't be as apt...and it'd be a cliche' name with the main character's name in it. Blech.

Link gets dragged into a situation he wasn't expecting and ultimately the problem revolves around Zelda in some way whether she be the target, the one acting to solve the problem, or something else.

And there's that. He explains things better than I do.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'd like to see a game entirely revolving around Zelda, but it'd at least be nice if she had as much screen time and chances to fight or otherwise show her abilities as Link.

No, it wouldn't. One of the sole reasons I like Link as a character is that, where Ganon dominates in body, and Zelda in mind, (physically, Link isn't all that great, and we ALL know he has more spirit than brains,) he dominates purely in spirit. That makes him cool. He isn't the most gifted, but he's still the only capable person because he's brave and willing to do whatever it takes. Makes sense, don't it? In any case, Link is the main character, and Zelda epitomizes a person that raises others to greatness, and Ganon the catalyst that spurns it in the first place. Zelda is cool BECAUSE she helps Link and cares about her country. Not because, OMG, she can do teh magic!!!

A character can still be a central even if he/she doesn't vanquish the evil in the end, as long as her part in the story is very important. Take a look at Sleeping Beauty for example, she's obviously the central character in the story but it was ultimately the prince who came and vanquished Malificent (with the help of the fairies) and saved the day.

Yup! And, again, does anybody else see the frighteningly glaring parallels between Zelda and Sleeping Beauty? The "hero" doesn't speak through that whole battle, he has fairies, the villain turns into a dragon-monster...and then there's the "Sword of Truth and Right" thing...weeeeird.

No. AoL, ALttP, OoT, OoA/OoS and TWW all state that Link is the chosen Hero destined to fight evil. I dunno where this "Link is just a normal guy" theory came from, but it is proven wrong by the games.

I think Sky means that Link doesn't KNOW he's the chosen one. He's born with the capability to press on and defeat evil no matter what, but he doesn't know it, is normal in that sense, and screws up. I think we can all agree with that.

Actually we're playing as the Wolf with Midna riding on his back .

Stole what I was going to say, but yes, controlling other creatures and characters gives Link's character more variety, but in EVERY single one of those cases, we are playing as Link in a different form, except for Kafei, which, as Sky said, is a very small part. And Kafei is not so very different from Link at ALL. (I love the parallel of Link meeting another character that, unlike him, wasn't aged seven years, but sucked back instead. BIG problems with both problems.)

[Hero of Legend]

Well, maybe it was just my wording but I know that Link isn't just some "normal guy" and he was destined to confront things. Just saying that in the argument is that Link really isn't the central figure, but he's the person that's thrust into the conflit through the two catalyst figures.

Your wording made it seem like you were saying that Link was just some bystander who accidentally got pulled into an adventure. I understand your view better now... Nonetheless, you are still wrong. ALttP makes this clear.

If a person with an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who unleashed the Great Cataclysm.

This is only about Link and Ganon. In fact, Link's life was a product of this prophesy. On the other hand, Zelda isn't mentioned at all. It was not until OoT that she was given a special role as the leader of the Sages.

So I think it is better to say that there are three main characters. "Link and Zelda VS Ganondorf" After all, they all have their individual Triforce piece.

Disagree. The same happens with any other game that has someone creating the main character, in fact in some games the entire story revolves around them (see: Baldur's Gate, Suikoden I&II).

Link is different from most of those games. He has a pre-set path, and you can't control any of his "actions". In that sense, the idea that the player is Link is an illusion.

(BTW, I have seen people who say "We are the Heroes", and even try to use this opinion as evidence in a debate. In reality we are players who play a game about a kid saving the world.)

Also remember that in tWW Medli and Makar were utilized through the command song, just as Link did for the statues. So I don't necessarily agree that we were ever directly in control of them, just like we were never really the seagulls. I think a better example would've been Kafei from Majora's Mask but that one was both a side story and only a very small part in it (although probably the biggest side quest in the game)

Kafei was a better example... And yes, I am aware of the fact that Link is "controlling" them with the command melody. However, the player is still playing as another character.

And who says that Link won’t take control over Zelda?

Actually we're playing as the Wolf with Midna riding on his back . We still never broke the Link so to speak, just manipulated it a bit (in tWW, not really in TP from what we've seen so far since we're still mainly playing as the wolf).

Heh heh… But it IS another step away from the "Play as Link" rule.

I'm not completely against playing as Zelda, but if we ever do it should be a really minor playable role and we definitely shouldn't see the story from her point of view. Plus if we're to switch I don't think it should be just so we can "play as Zelda" but rather make it really closely connected to Link's quest, such as his role in guiding Makar and Medli through the dungeons to their destination. For the most part I think it's better suited that if Zelda sees combat it should be through either cut-scenes or as a support role during a fight, like in tWW and the end of OoT.

I COMPLETELY agree with the first part. I like the idea of playing as Zelda, but only for certain parts of the game. I would never want a game where Link isn't the main character. However, if they do this, it needs to be more than 5 minutes. Otherwise it isn't worth it. It also needs to be more advanced that in TWW. Nintendo took the cheap way and made both Makar and Medli fly, and they were not used in a good way (Makar plants seeds...). If you control Zelda then there would better be some fighting and magic involved.

BTW, Zelda DID follow Link for about 10 seconds in TWW. Expand on this Nintendo. Expand I say!

[Skyreus]

Your wording made it seem like you were saying that Link was just some bystander who accidentally got pulled into an adventure. I understand your view better now... Nonetheless, you are still wrong. ALttP makes this clear.

Ummm... I think we're in agreement so I see no need to argue on this point. Simply, it's my original wording that caused this and that's my fault and now there's no need to talk about this further.

Link is different from most of those games. He has a pre-set path, and you can't control any of his "actions". In that sense, the idea that the player is Link is an illusion.

(BTW, I have seen people who say "We are the Heroes", and even try to use this opinion as evidence in a debate. In reality we are players who play a game about a kid saving the world.)

I mentioned Suikoden...
Yes, there are some of those games that provide a more open-ended experience but in the end the point of The Legend of Zelda games is for you, the player, to take up the role of a hero. That's the premise behind Link whether you think they did a good job of it or not.
Plus even in those games you're still guided along the path, no matter whether you're Good or Evil in the original Baldur's Gate that really only effected the side quests and the allies that join you. Ultimately the ending and primary plot remained the same. Only MMORPGs, Pirates! and possibly the Elder Scrolls series (never played them) really grant something along the lines of complete freedom. No matter what we're always limited to some degree, more so in games like Suikoden and The Legend of Zelda but in those games we're supposed to be placed into the restricted role of either the hero leading an army in a rebellion and noble courageous hero facing all odds respectively. We're still playing along with the developer's game in the end, but they are aiming for us to be the "silent protagonist"

Kafei was a better example... And yes, I am aware of the fact that Link is "controlling" them with the command melody. However, the player is still playing as another character.

Yes, but the point is they provided some sort of explanation for it (and besides... we first used the song on animated statues...) and we never really went through anything from their point of view. Hence we are never really that character. If anything we should be arguing over the Seagull .

And who says that Link won’t take control over Zelda?

Link's too good and noble and Zelda's too wise for that to happen . At least I think so

Heh heh… But it IS another step away from the "Play as Link" rule.

Link is to Epona as wolf is to Midna. It all started with Ocarina of Time

I COMPLETELY agree with the first part. I like the idea of playing as Zelda, but only for certain parts of the game. I would never want a game where Link isn't the main character. However, if they do this, it needs to be more than 5 minutes. Otherwise it isn't worth it. It also needs to be more advanced that in TWW. Nintendo took the cheap way and made both Makar and Medli fly, and they were not used in a good way (Makar plants seeds...). If you control Zelda then there would better be some fighting and magic involved.

Makar and Medli were used in puzzles differently though, although Medli's harp and floating technique are better developed than Makar's seeds. Yeah, they both fly but their other features are quite different.

BTW, Zelda DID follow Link for about 10 seconds in TWW. Expand on this Nintendo. Expand I say!

I actually don't think that's a bad idea, perhaps a dungeon where you need to guide Zelda through it although you never directly control her. In fact I think it's a better idea than controlling her directly. Think ICO, although Shadow Link might be against that .

I keep noticing that a major counterpoint to the "helpless zelda" argument, is the "link isnt very smart and needs guidance to get things done" argument. well i just have a few things to say about that. first of all, unless u have the guide to tell u everything, you have to somehow find out where to go next so its nice that th egame has certain characters give some clues. what is so wrong about link asking advice or for information from townspeople or talking owls? a private investigator does exactly the same thing to accomplish his task, and  P.I. is known for being intelligent and solving things. so what is so bad about link occasionally seeking guidance from others? he doesnt have divine visions like zelda, or a deep understanding of magic and some ultimate power like ganon, so he makes do with the skills he does have, which is basically talking to people (even if we dont see his dialouge) and swinging that sword like its nobody's business.

It's called satire (although not a very clever one I admit)... it's even better and ironic that you posted this... I'll leave you to think about it

[Husse]

(BTW, I have seen people who say "We are the Heroes", and even try to use this opinion as evidence in a debate. In reality we are players who play a game about a kid saving the world.)

Eediots! Even though I agree that Link is the clueless one in this situation, unlike you. Zelda and Ganon are the two static forces. Link is the only one that can turn the battle in the favor of right in the situation, which Zelda DOES NOT ALWAYS DO.

I keep noticing that a major counterpoint to the "helpless zelda" argument, is the "link isnt very smart and needs guidance to get things done" argument. well i just have a few things to say about that. first of all, unless u have the guide to tell u everything, you have to somehow find out where to go next so its nice that th egame has certain characters give some clues. what is so wrong about link asking advice or for information from townspeople or talking owls? a private investigator does exactly the same thing to accomplish his task, and P.I. is known for being intelligent and solving things. so what is so bad about link occasionally seeking guidance from others? he doesnt have divine visions like zelda, or a deep understanding of magic and some ultimate power like ganon, so he makes do with the skills he does have, which is basically talking to people (even if we dont see his dialouge) and swinging that sword like its nobody's business.

We're not talking about asking for help. We're talking about opening the SR with Ganon behind him, going after his sister, pulling out the Master Sword which made Ganon all-powerful, ETC...Link isn't perfect. He screws up. He fails...um, a lot!

Link's too good and noble and Zelda's too wise for that to happen . At least I think so  

Dude, he string along at LEAST five women in OoT...he was probably staring at Impa's breasts through that whole cutscene.

Shadow Link, um, there's this thing...it's called paragraphs?