76 replies to this topic

[Zythe]

God seems friendly in the New Testament and Koran but not in the Old Testament or the Torah.

What is your reason for this if any? Which do you beleive is the true personality of God if there is any?

[Zythe]

A bit like Zeus, then, some guy who orders you about ... because he's almighty and omniscient so he can.

[Hero of Winds]

Yahweh probably came off to be warlike given how Judaism evolved from Caananite paganism... which I do believe had a war god or something similar.

[Zythe]

YHWH, in Gnosticism went mad and became the devil (not Judo-Christianity), correct me if I'm wrong but then the new God was the husband of Sophia: Earth Goddess and they bore Jesus and that's why he was a nice person. No wonder the Gnostics were slaughtered.

Anyone read the Da Vinci code?

[Ganondorf]

I mentioned this before. Ya.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Hero of Winds@Sep 24 2004, 03:28 PM
Yahweh probably came off to be warlike given how Judaism evolved from Caananite paganism... which I do believe had a war god or something similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The theory I've heard is that God, that is to say, the Jewish God, is a composite of various other god-ideas, most notably El and Baal. The Human Messiah of Christianity mixed well with the Greek concept of human Gods, and their influence created the Vengeful-Benevolent mix present in Christianity and Islam.

[Hero of Winds]

Yahweh IS El, or supposed to be anyways. And associating Yahweh with Baal? Blasphemy! =P

[Alakhriveion]

Yeah, probably, but in the fight with Baalists, God took on all his war-god aspects, including the emblem of Baal- The Burning Bush.

[Zythe]

That predates the Jews fight with Ba'al though, it was a Moses thing.

Did God not prove Ba'al an idol, in Kings?

[Alakhriveion]

Yeah, being an atheist, I can say it was all made up later on.

[Zythe]

[quote]Originally posted by Alakhriveion+-->

The theory I've heard is that God, that is to say, the Jewish God, is a composite of various other god-ideas, most notably El and Baal.  The Human Messiah of Christianity mixed well with the Greek concept of human Gods, and their influence created the Vengeful-Benevolent mix present in Christianity and Islam.[/b][/quote]

I guess that's a good theory, but its not really possible to completely substantiate those theories of the origin of the Hebrew God. Of course they weren't Jews back then. Jew refers more to a religion... it's actually more accurate to refer to it either as Hebrew or Israelite during this time period... but most people don't understand the subtleties for that reason, so they usually use the terms interchangabley.

[quote]Originally posted by Zythe@
God seems friendly in the New Testament and Koran but not in the Old Testament or the Torah.

What is your reason for this if any? Which do you beleive is the true personality of God if there is any?[/quote]

Most Rabbis would not agree with your interpretation of the God presented in the Hebrew Bible. Most Rabbis (even before Jesus's time) considered God to be a just and merciful God. There are various mentions of the Lord's mercy throughout the Torah, as well as throughout the Writings and the Prophets as well.

I think what's different is what you consider mercy. God doesn't tolerate disobedience, but on several occasions he spares people from the punishment they rightly deserve. So your suppostion that the God of the Torah isn't merciful is blinded by the occasions that he also shows his wrathful side.

This is not a Christian development of a Vengeful-Benevolent God. This has always been the character of God from the Torah on.

#14 Zythe

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:04 PM

Marcion? Marsian? I'm confused.

Anyway, I'm shocked Alak is an atheist ... I thought he was a Jew.

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#15 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:10 PM

Marcion is a person who created a sect of Christianity in which he decided that the God of the Torah was completely different than the God of Jesus for basically the same reason you sighted (mostly because of ignorance of the Jewish Texts in my opinion) his Biblical canon that he made eliminated the entire Old Testament, used only the gospel of Luke, and cut all OT references from the letters of Paul, among other things.

He is not exactly Gnostic, cause Gnostics hadn't fully formed, yet, but there were proto-Gnostics, which Marcion could possibly be considered, but he did have differing views on some things than what came to be known as gnostic teaching, later on.

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#16 Guest_TanakaBros06_*

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:14 PM

Zythe, Alak is both. He looks at things from every angle, and realizes how foolish certainty can be.

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#17 Alakhriveion

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:21 PM

Originally posted by TanakaBros06@Sep 24 2004, 04:14 PM
Zythe, Alak is both. He looks at things from every angle, and realizes how foolish certainty can be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. I believe all things can pretty much be understood, but that perception is meaningless, so it's really all what's more probably and what isn't. Absolute notions are an intellectual plague. So yeah, I'm an atheist Jew.

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#18 Zythe

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:25 PM

So an agnostic Jew, seeing as that's a big "don't know" thing.

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#19 Alakhriveion

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:28 PM

I know what I believe, the difference is knowing what I know. So agnostic doesn't really apply.

Side note; Dyslexic Agnostic: Is there a dog?

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#20 arunma

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 06:48 PM

Aw Alak, I know there's a repressed Jewish theist deep down inside that stoned commie hippie!

Originally posted by Hero of Winds@Sep 24 2004, 03:28 PM
Yahweh probably came off to be warlike given how Judaism evolved from Caananite paganism... which I do believe had a war god or something similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, no offense or anything buddy, but that's sort of blasphemy too. The God of the Old Testament is supposed to be considered the same God. Oh well, he's not gonna smite ya for it.

But seriously, anyone who thinks God has changed in the New Testament should read about what he did to King Herod, and should check out what disasters he will send onto the earth in the end times. God is both loving and wrathful in both Testaments.

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#21 Hero of Winds

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 07:55 PM

Originally posted by arunma
Uh, no offense or anything buddy, but that's sort of blasphemy too. The God of the Old Testament is supposed to be considered the same God. Oh well, he's not gonna smite ya for it.

Yeah, I know. What did I say otherwise? All I meant was that Yahweh's warlike tendencies probably had something to do with the Caananites, considering they had just stepped out of their old pagan beliefs. But I'm fully aware that Yahweh, El, Allah, etc are all the same God.

It's Alak who is the blasphemer! Associating God with Baal! Nail him for that. =P

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#22 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Hero of Winds
But I'm fully aware that Yahweh, El, Allah, etc are all the same God.

It's Alak who is the blasphemer! Associating God with Baal! Nail him for that. =P

I'm sorry, but a lot of people would consider what you said a form of blasphemy, as well

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#23 Hero of Winds

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:07 PM

How so?

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#24 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:23 PM

beacuse not all people believe that they are the same god

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#25 Zythe

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 11:39 AM

Yes they are!

Do you not find it comforting that God is wrathful?

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#26 Hero of Winds

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 12:06 PM

Vorpal: The God of Abraham is also the God of Issac and the God of Jacob. The Burning Bush told Moses that he (Yahweh) was also the God of Abraham/Jacob. Does that not prove (as much as Biblical stories can prove, anyways) that El and Yahweh are one in the same?

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#27 Zythe

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 12:10 PM

El? I've only heard of him as "God, The Lord, The Almighty, He, Him, Allah and YHWH".

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#28 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 02:07 PM

Yes... those names can all be translated as the English word "God", but using the term Allah, denotes the Islamic name they call their God. Muslims may belive that Their God is the same God of Abraham, but they also believe him to be the God of Ishmael instead of Isaac and Jacob.

Not everyone who believes in the God of Isaac believes in the God of Ishmael and vis versa.

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#29 SteveT

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 02:10 PM

Right, that's because of the ancient dispute over whether Ishmael or Isaac was the true son of Abraham.

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#30 Hero of Winds

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 02:27 PM

But isn't the God of Issac also the God of Abraham? What dispute?

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[Zythe]

Marcion? Marsian? I'm confused.

Anyway, I'm shocked Alak is an atheist ... I thought he was a Jew.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by TanakaBros06@Sep 24 2004, 04:14 PM
Zythe, Alak is both. He looks at things from every angle, and realizes how foolish certainty can be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. I believe all things can pretty much be understood, but that perception is meaningless, so it's really all what's more probably and what isn't. Absolute notions are an intellectual plague. So yeah, I'm an atheist Jew.

[Zythe]

So an agnostic Jew, seeing as that's a big "don't know" thing.

[Alakhriveion]

I know what I believe, the difference is knowing what I know. So agnostic doesn't really apply.

Side note; Dyslexic Agnostic: Is there a dog?

[arunma]

Aw Alak, I know there's a repressed Jewish theist deep down inside that stoned commie hippie!

Originally posted by Hero of Winds@Sep 24 2004, 03:28 PM
Yahweh probably came off to be warlike given how Judaism evolved from Caananite paganism... which I do believe had a war god or something similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, no offense or anything buddy, but that's sort of blasphemy too. The God of the Old Testament is supposed to be considered the same God. Oh well, he's not gonna smite ya for it.

But seriously, anyone who thinks God has changed in the New Testament should read about what he did to King Herod, and should check out what disasters he will send onto the earth in the end times. God is both loving and wrathful in both Testaments.

[Hero of Winds]

Originally posted by arunma
Uh, no offense or anything buddy, but that's sort of blasphemy too. The God of the Old Testament is supposed to be considered the same God. Oh well, he's not gonna smite ya for it.

Yeah, I know. What did I say otherwise? All I meant was that Yahweh's warlike tendencies probably had something to do with the Caananites, considering they had just stepped out of their old pagan beliefs. But I'm fully aware that Yahweh, El, Allah, etc are all the same God.

It's Alak who is the blasphemer! Associating God with Baal! Nail him for that. =P

[Hero of Winds]

How so?

[Zythe]

Yes they are!

Do you not find it comforting that God is wrathful?

[Hero of Winds]

Vorpal: The God of Abraham is also the God of Issac and the God of Jacob. The Burning Bush told Moses that he (Yahweh) was also the God of Abraham/Jacob. Does that not prove (as much as Biblical stories can prove, anyways) that El and Yahweh are one in the same?

[Zythe]

El? I've only heard of him as "God, The Lord, The Almighty, He, Him, Allah and YHWH".

[SteveT]

Right, that's because of the ancient dispute over whether Ishmael or Isaac was the true son of Abraham.

[Hero of Winds]

But isn't the God of Issac also the God of Abraham? What dispute?