60 replies to this topic

[Oberon Storm]

Combined with a lifetime of government dependency creates a self-imposed helplessness.

Right because those on wellfare are just mooching off the government and society. There is no pork in the system or roadblocks put in place at all. They're all just lazy fucks that wouldn't know what a days hard work is. They don't go work in mills and factories just to live paycheck to paycheck. It's all what you call a "self-imposed helplessness".

[Hero of Winds]

Michael Brown resigns from FEMA.

[Oberon Storm]

Now Little Boy George has taken reponsibility for at least the feds mistakes. I think I might just die of shock.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

My family members also have legs, I believe.


*checks*


Yes, all legs intact and attached to the body.  Good to go.  

Infants can be carried, and the little ones can be too after they get tired. The old folks are the ones that would need assistance, however, I admit. You can carry a supply of food that will last you a few days, and water as well, in order to get above sealevel and to the next town over, at minimum. A tent as well, if your family happens to own one.

Isn't that a bit dangerous in the high winds that precede the hurricane, to walk on foot? Wouldn't it be much safer to go by car or bus, where the metallic body shields you from flying debris?

In a way, this was everybody's fault. All that urbanisation destroyed something that would have weathered the storm much better, swampland. Still, it wouldn't have been so bad if a plan to reinforce the levees hadn't been stalled in Congress.

[~Light Goddess~]

No offense to anybody, but I think that Bush is an ass. All that he's really been trying to do all these years is to fill the job that his Daddy couldn't do when he was President with the whole war on Iraq. And when there is a real crisis is such a memorable city like New Orleans, he just simply stays and walks around for half an hour, and says that he has other main issues to work to. What others main issues does he have then to be a president and serve his country with the help it needs right now then to be still fighting against Iraq?

[Hero of Winds]

^Watch it now. Horses are living beings too - they can only take so much abuse.

[dcLx]

bush does suck...but this is what i really dont understand...the news just asking questions about the hurricane...why cant there asses just help? i mean just standing there saying shit about people dying really pisses me off and who cares if they dont get news they want us to help but i dont see them doing shit

[Korhend]

Its called objectivity, its been an important part of news since Thucydides...

[Wanchimaera]

Right because those on wellfare are just mooching off the government and society. There is no pork in the system or roadblocks put in place at all. They're all just lazy [expletive] that wouldn't know what a days hard work is. They don't go work in mills and factories just to live paycheck to paycheck. It's all what you call a "self-imposed helplessness".

Teenage girls don't ever get pregnant with babies whose mouths they can't afford to feed. They certainly don't spend their free time on Bourbon street, and libraries are the most popular hangouts for teenagers. Drugs, alcohol, and tobacco don't exist in New Orleans.

The mere idea that you have no control over your destiny and there's nothing you can do to even slightly improve your condition (or the condition for future generations) is the very definition of helpless. If a person is desperate enough to improve his/her condition, they will find a way.

[Korhend]

So for example, we can conclude that the starvation in the Great Leap Forward was because 20 million people were to lazy to better their situation and died because they were too lazy to improve their situation, and not desperate enough.

[Alakhriveion]

Teenage girls don't ever get pregnant with babies whose mouths they can't afford to feed. They certainly don't spend their free time on Bourbon street, and libraries are the most popular hangouts for teenagers. Drugs, alcohol, and tobacco don't exist in New Orleans.

The culture of self-destruction is a result of generations of poverty and poor education, hopelessness, and institutionalized class immobility. If everyone started off on equal footing, it'd be their fault. If there were as many children of millionares getting knocked up and becoming junkies as there are children of debtors, you've got a case.

The mere idea that you have no control over your destiny and there's nothing you can do to even slightly improve your condition (or the condition for future generations) is the very definition of helpless. If a person is desperate enough to improve his/her condition, they will find a way.

The mere idea that you can overcome anything by working hard is the very definition of delusion. I present to you one Nikola Tesla. Nik came to America penniless. While here, he created AC electricity, radio, the Supervillian's Death Ray, and a few other things upon which our entire way of life is built. When he died he was four cents richer than we was upon immigration. There's no denying that he worked harder than anyone you'll ever meet, and there's no denying four cents wasn't enough to buy a Coke. Was he just bootstrap-impared?

Of course not everyone is like that. Tesla made stupid mistakes like trusting Thomas Edison and not getting his contracts in writing. But it does show us a bit about how hard work is rewarded.

Now what if you don't have literate parents, or all those other things them people what got all them degrees study up on and the newspapers are always a-talkin' about that make you more likely to be literate yourself? Might it take a little more than willpower to make the Forbes 500 or, at the very least, not so deep in debt VISA takes your kidneys? And if you turn to crime (a much easier industry to make your way in, unless you tend to die when shot), what happens to the rest of your distressed municipality? Faster than you can say "downward spiral," everyone's drowning because the Mayor refuses to use the city's busses. But of course they deserved it, because poverty is a CHOICE.

[Selena]

Being born into poverty isn't a choice, obviously, but not fighting to get out of it is. You don't have to get a fancy degree in order to make a lot of money. My stepfather, for example, never went to college and makes (I believe) around 50-60k a year in his profession, and his family lived in a little trailer in the desert. He wasn't the best in school, but was good at what he did, and was able to make a living off of it. He's an Allison transmission mechanic, if it matters. A lot of times it isn't what degree you have, but who you know and what trade you're good at. Although a good college degree never hurt any. My mom dropped out of college and was still able to raise me by herself for a few years until she met my stepfather (she later went back to get an associate's once money troubles settled). Sometimes it all comes down to luck.

'Working hard' might not get you anywhere, but a little ingenuity can go a long way. It's not easy, of course, but it's possible. I've always been a believer that a person can do almost anything if they're set on it. Like that homeless chick who graduated from Harvard. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. You can go to extremes to survive, but in an ideal world, you shouldn't have to. Sadly, the world is far from ideal.

And I was under the impression that Rednecks were a subset of white trash, not a seperate group. Shouldn't be "and."

Depends on who you ask. White trash-ites are generally just poor, but rednecks are just reckless idiots. ...It's a heated debate in the redneck world.


And my little escape on foot plan would mainly just work if you knew you had someplace to stay (be it relatives or friends) within a day's walk. Not asking ya to perform a thousand mile jog in a hurricane carrying elderly on your back. Unless you're a nutcase like me, and wouldn't hesitate to rush off into the wilderness, Rambo-style. But my main beef is just with the people who could get out and chose not to because a hurricane would only be a minor inconvenience. They're in every hurricane or major disaster, though (even locally, with that crazy Washington guy who thought St. Helens wouldn't kill him).

...Although several of them somehow survive to do it again, too. Weird.

[Wanchimaera]

So for example, we can conclude that the starvation in the Great Leap Forward was because 20 million people were to lazy to better their situation and died because they were too lazy to improve their situation, and not desperate enough.

Wasn't that like 40 years ago in China? How is that relevant?

Now what if you don't have literate parents, or all those other things them people what got all them degrees study up on and the newspapers are always a-talkin' about that make you more likely to be literate yourself?

I had great-grandparents who were not literate. None of their children had past a sixth grade education, but their literacy was a step up from where their parents were. Both sons married literate women, and were able to see that their children made it through high school. Poverty isn't something someone can get rid of overnight. Sometimes the conditions are to the point where small steps must be taken. You don't help the poor by telling them that it's all the government's fault and there's nothing you can do.

The culture of self-destruction is a result of generations of poverty and poor education, hopelessness, and institutionalized class immobility. If everyone started off on equal footing, it'd be their fault. If there were as many children of millionares getting knocked up and becoming junkies as there are children of debtors, you've got a case.

So, getting knocked up just happens, and when it does, society is responsible, not the individuals involved. Sex, alcoholism, and drug abuse almost always start with a choice.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Wasn't that like 40 years ago in China? How is that relevant?

I'm sorry, what are you getting at? Are you saying the problems of the present had no equivalent in the past? You sir, need to look at history.

In the Victorian ages, people thought that poverty was the hallmark of a wasteful life.

This was clearly no the case. They couldn't work their way up, because it was not possible to do so. No matter how hard they worked, most of the money they earned was sucked up into providing food or paying rent, with little left over for anything else. People who couldn't afford the "Rowntree's basket" (a basket of food, housing and some items of clothing) were deemed poor, and there were a huge number who couldn't.

Nowadays, the Rowntree's basket is no longer an indication of poverty, but there are still poor people. They may be earning money, but it may be sucked up by what debts they owe.

It's probably not their income that's causing their poverty. It might actually be their debts.

My father had no school education and my mother had no fancy education either. When they immigrated to the UK, their English was poor. They still can't speak it very well. Yet they've managed to earn enough to send me to a private school and to University... twice.

But it wasn't just hard work that got them here. It helped that a good number of my family members were also here. My Grandfather worked in the Bank of England (or so I gathered), my Uncles were already here, setting up restaurants that helped them get influential friends.

It's not just hard work. It's who you know as well.

Tesla proves this fact, doesn't it? He worked hard, but it was who he knew that kept him poor.

I doubt the majority of poor people know people that could help them rise out of poverty completely.

[~Light Goddess~]

Well, knowing that New Orleans is a good city, why would they build it under sea level? That's just an ok signal for a passing by hurricane.

[Alakhriveion]

I had great-grandparents who were not literate. None of their children had past a sixth grade education, but their literacy was a step up from where their parents were. Both sons married literate women, and were able to see that their children made it through high school. Poverty isn't something someone can get rid of overnight. Sometimes the conditions are to the point where small steps must be taken. You don't help the poor by telling them that it's all the government's fault and there's nothing you can do.

Uh-huh. So, you feel you represent a trend, or an ideal? Well, if something takes generations to change, you can't hold the current poor accountable for not having their own cars- they're still making up for the shortcomings of their parents and grandparents. You admit it isn't something that happens easily overnight, or even in a hundred years.

So, getting knocked up just happens, and when it does, society is responsible, not the individuals involved. Sex, alcoholism, and drug abuse almost always start with a choice.

Right, because everyone has an equally easy life* and there's no reason at all anyone would more readily sacrifice health and finance to be distracted from it than anyone else. Because equal schooling exists**, there's no excuse for being less educated than anyone else. Because we all start on equal footing***, there's no excuse for anything.

*They don't
**It doesn't
***You get the idea

[Wanchimaera]

I'm sorry, what are you getting at? Are you saying the problems of the present had no equivalent in the past? You sir, need to look at history.

Equivalent? They diverted the workers from agricultural jobs into the steel market, where the government was hoping to surpass the U.S. in that market. With a shortage of agricultural workers, combined with natural disasters and such, there was a mass food shortage, resulting in starvation. Living conditions, even for the poor, are much better now than they were 40 years ago.

Well, if something takes generations to change, you can't hold the current poor accountable for not having their own cars- they're still making up for the shortcomings of their parents and grandparents. You admit it isn't something that happens easily overnight, or even in a hundred years.

A lot of "poor" people in the U.S. do own a car. However, it doesn't excuse the city of New Orleans for not utilizing all available means of public transport to get those who don't own a car out of the city.

[Oberon Storm]

A lot of "poor" people in the U.S. do own a car. However, it doesn't excuse the city of New Orleans for not utilizing all available means of public transport to get those who don't own a car out of the city.

I'll give you that one.

[Alakhriveion]

A lot of "poor" people in the U.S. do own a car.

Hmm, not so much in the big cities. You think all those people would've gone to the Superdome if they could have just driven away?

However, it doesn't excuse the city of New Orleans for not utilizing all available means of public transport to get those who don't own a car out of the city.

Indeed.

[Korhend]

Wasn't that like 40 years ago in China? How is that relevant?

Was willpower invented in the last 40 years? How isn't it?

Equivalent? They diverted the workers from agricultural jobs into the steel market, where the government was hoping to surpass the U.S. in that market. With a shortage of agricultural workers, combined with natural disasters and such, there was a mass food shortage, resulting in starvation. Living conditions, even for the poor, are much better now than they were 40 years ago.

Gee, I seem to recall hearing
"If a person is desperate enough to improve his/her condition, they will find a way."

Second I see the people who stayed as a much better example of desperate people willing to make sacrifices. If they worked hard and sacrificed for what they have, you think their going to pack up shop and leave things to the looters?

[Wanchimaera]

Gee, I seem to recall hearing
"If a person is desperate enough to improve his/her condition, they will find a way."

You did. The situation in China was completely different. If there was a dictator in the White House, I wouldn't have made that statement. Thought independent of the state wasn't exactly encouraged.

Second I see the people who stayed as a much better example of desperate people willing to make sacrifices. If they worked hard and sacrificed for what they have, you think their going to pack up shop and leave things to the looters?

Well, I see your point, but had they been able to get everyone out of there via public transport, the problem of looting would not be as big of a problem as it currently is.

[Korhend]

You did. The situation in China was completely different. If there was a dictator in the White House, I wouldn't have made that statement. Thought independent of the state wasn't exactly encouraged

Fine, Great Depression, Dust Bowl do I need to cite more examples?

[Wanchimaera]

They didn't have luxuries like microwaves and tv dinners during the depression. People in rural areas had to make their own food, which was susceptible to weather and all kinds of animals and disease.

[Hero of Winds]

Plus, the Great Depression was on a national scale. The people in New Orleans, as already stated, could've left their city and find shelter elsewhere. Where were people supposed to go during the Depression? What were they supposed to do?

[Alakhriveion]

Plus, the Great Depression was on a national scale. The people in New Orleans, as already stated, could've left their city and find shelter elsewhere. Where were people supposed to go during the Depression? What were they supposed to do?

They couldn't leave all that easily, HoW. Outrunning a hurricane with children, running out of food and water, etcetera.

[Hero of Winds]

They couldn't leave all that easily, HoW.  Outrunning a hurricane with children, running out of food and water, etcetera.

It's actually quite simple. You live in a town below sea level, with your only protection being a levee system which won't fare against anything greater than a category 3 hurricane. You hear on the news that a category 5 storm is on the way. Upon hearing this news, you gather up your (family, friends, and miscellaneous belongings), leave your house, and haul ass.

And what do you mean by, "running out of food and water"? Considering the people who stayed behind didn't have any food, water, electricity, clothes, or a sanitary living area... I don't see your point.

[Korhend]

Its so much easier when people counter their own arguments for me

If a person is desperate enough to improve his/her condition, they will find a way.

f there was a dictator in the White House, I wouldn't have made that statement.

[Alakhriveion]

Yes, because it's so easy to out run a hurricane on foot and survive penniless for weeks with children and the infirm.

One assumes that the survivors are sent aid. The fact that there were such problems in the city is a whole different issue.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I came up on the west side of Chicago (the part your don't see on the tour guides of the city). I witnessed impoverished families first hand, and know they'd be the most likely to suffer in the event of a natural disaster.

Many of those families in New Orleans live below the poverty level. You have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of single parent homes and the average household income, even with multiple adults, is only $30,000. Imagine two parents with 3 or more kids having a combined income of $30,000 or imagine a single parent with 2 or three kids having making only $30k. Some households are even less than this. Also, many do not have reliable transpotation or no transportation at all.

Now, a storm is coming and you have less than 2 days to evacuate. There were no charter buses or other forms of public or private transportation offering free rides to those with out transportation or those who can't afford a ticket out of town. Even if you had transportation...you're too poor to live in a hotel for an indefinite amount of time, not knowing if you have a home to return to.

Many people had no where to go or didn't have the proper means to getting to safer places. You could try and foot it...but keep in mind you're dealing with temps in the upper 90s with a heat index over a 100, then you got a storm that's travelling faster than you...then you got elderly who are barely mobile and sick...then you have hungry kids with you--I can go on and on. Also the closest shelter that many of these families could get to on foot was the Superdome, but do to regulations, it was only allowed to hold a certain amount of people. You can't fit hundreds of thousands of people there, barely even a fourth of the city. I can go on and on with what those people were up against. It's easy to say...get out of there...but when you're in that same situation, like those families then you'll see things a different way.

If you want to cast blame...put it on the government on all levels. That includes the local government in N.O. and the federal government. Blame the local gov't and the mayor for not setting up charter buses and other forms of transportation to help those who had no transportation. After all if I'm a mayor or a city official I'm going to know that most of my people are poor and can not properly make it out. So I'm going to do more than just shout--"oh by the way...get out of town--a storm is coming." I would mobilize as many school buses, charter buses or whatever as possible and transport them to a safer area. So what if it costs! It's gonna cost to rebuild the damn city anyway. Blame the fed gov't and Bush for cutting back funding that could've been used towards building a better levee long before the storm hit. Blame the fed gov't for taking almost 4 days long to provide food and water to starving and thirsty people---even though it took them no time to provide aid for the areas hit by the tsunami. Elderly people and even babies died waiting at that convention center for aid in the sweltering bayou heat. People right here, in the world's richest country went 4 days without food and water in 100 degree heat. My God I can't even imagine the babies that went through this. That's ridiculous!! It's an outrage.

That convention center alone had thousands of people there...who sought refuge from the floods--and in my own backyard the gov't took 4 days getting aid to those people--even though it took the the U.S. gov't no time to get over to the areas hit by tsunamis half a world away. Maybe they just saw poor underclass black folk, and said...oh they can wait--no urgency. To them it doesn't look at as urgent or sad seeing people who look like me--black folk-suffer. If that would've been blue eyed people, with blonde hair stranded out there...the response would've been much different.

[spunky-monkey]

Good Lord...if Bush doesn't care about his own people then quite frankly the rest of the world has no chance.
America is going to run into serious problems with $200 Billion lost from both hurricanes (not including commerce) and $6 Billion lost to Iraq, it's a pretty bleak picture. Now people are ranting about rising to the challenge of rebuilding a sunken city. Rebuilding N.O should not be an option, seeing as how it will only be lost to another Cat 3+ hurricane all over again in the near future...Let's face it people, placing a major city below sea-level in the Gulf of Mexico was just asking for trouble.