60 replies to this topic

[arunma]

Actually, President Bush contacted the Governor of Louisiana before Hurricane Katrina arrived, and asked him to evacuate the city. The Governor didn't oblige. President Bush was fairly quick to come to Louisiana, and it's the American media that has practiced racism. If this happened in Minnesota, I'm sure we'd be hearing hero stories. Instead, Fox News cares only about looters. Is Bush really the racist? His cabinet seems racially diverse to me. He may be many things, but President Bush certainly doesn't seem racist to me.

By the way, I have a strong reputation on this forum for being a Bush-hater. So if I'm defending the man, you can be sure that I am not biased.

[Chikara Nadir]

Arun said

Instead, Fox News cares only about looters.

Which seems funny, considering that it's the most Conservative major network on tv.

I don't think Bush is racist (or if he is, that it has much to do with his handling of the Katrina situation) - but I am upset at how long it took for people to get in and help. I understand that they had to wait for the winds to die down before bringing in any choppers, buses, or boats, but...when the response did come, it started as a trickle. Meh, I'm just happy that they've found a good scapegoat (the director of FEMA...or former director..however it's turning out) and it looks like things might start to be done differently from here on. And the $2,000 debit cards to all adults from the disaster zone are nice- although it doesn't go very far if you're a single parent with five kids. Ah well.

[Oberon Storm]

arunma said

President Bush was fairly quick to come to Louisiana...

Uh, he waited two days before cutting his vacation short. He and his cronies also say some bullshit about no one knowing the levees could ever possibly break.

I don't think any of this is about race. I think it is about class. Even former First Lady Barbara Bush said, "And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this is working very well for them."
[/size]
[size=2]The FEMA director should have been fired. Plain in simple. He isn't qualified for this post. And if they cannot provide an address, they don't get the $2,000.


Katrina is to Junior what Andrew was to Pappy. Maybe worse.

[Alakhriveion]

Class does seem more the issue for government, but the race thing is definately an issue for the media. From this week's Onion:

White Foragers Report Threat Of Black Looters

NEW ORLEANS—Throughout the Gulf Coast, Caucasian suburbanites attempting to gather food and drink in the shattered wreckage of shopping districts have reported seeing African*Americans "looting snacks and beer from damaged businesses." "I was in the abandoned Wal-Mart gathering an air mattress so I could float out the potato chips, beef jerky, and Budweiser I'd managed to find," said white survivor Lars Wrightson, who had carefully selected foodstuffs whose salt and alcohol content provide protection against contamination. "Then I look up, and I see a whole family of [African-Americans] going straight for the booze. Hell, you could see they had already looted a fortune in diapers." Radio stations still in operation are advising store owners and white people in the affected areas to locate firearms in sporting-goods stores in order to protect themselves against marauding blacks looting gun shops.

[Ogmios22188]

I can't believe that article you just posted, Alak. Everyone's stealing. All of the businesses have been shattered, and people need to get food and water to survive. But of course, the white people are just "foraging" for food, while the blacks are "looting" for it. Looting what? There's hardly anything left.

[Alakhriveion]

Well that's from the Onion. It's a satire of the way the media and the military have been treating the situation with looters/foragers.

[Veteran]

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so now I'm calling my business manager right now to see what is the biggest amount I can give

He doesn't know how much he can give?

[Wanchimaera]

Most of these people could've gotten out of there before the hurricane hit, and deliberately disobeyed. What I want to know is why there are school busses sitting there halfway under water when they could've been used to get people out of there who couldn't do it themselves.

As for politicizing disaster, Ted Kennedy has already blamed the hurricane on Bush (as in Bush administration caused the hurricane, citing legislation based on questionable science).

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If this happened in Minnesota, I'm sure we'd be hearing hero stories. Instead, Fox News cares only about looters.

Yeah, total anarchy and mass chaos in the aftermath of a catastrophic disaster isn't worth reporting. What is this, the news?

[Hero of Winds]

Chief Fire Storm said

The FEMA director should have been fired. Plain in simple. He isn't qualified for this post. And if they cannot provide an address, they don't get the $2,000.

He was fired.

Anyway, race and class aren't the problem - the problem is the ignorant citizens and public officials of New Orleans. Everybody knew that Katrina was a category 5 storm and that the levee system wouldn't be able to hold. While a good deal of people did have the sense to leave before the hurricane it, many of them didn't. Hell, many people continued to stay in their homes AFTER the storm hit. The problem has never been race, it's been ignorance.

People need a scapegoat, or else chaos only arises. If people have nobody else to blame, then they're forced to *gasp* blame themselves.

As for Kanye West... well, suffice to say, his "George Bush hates black people" comment is enough to discredit him. Until I see a federal report saying "All minorities are to be left to fend for themselves", the race card is just another way of taking the blame off the people of New Orleans.

[Wanchimaera]

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The problem has never been race, it's been ignorance.

Combined with a lifetime of government dependency creates a self-imposed helplessness. Did these people not hear about hurricane Ivan? Ivan was a smaller and weaker storm than Katrina.

[Alakhriveion]

Hero of Winds said

Anyway, race and class aren't the problem - the problem is the ignorant citizens and public officials of New Orleans. Everybody knew that Katrina was a category 5 storm and that the levee system wouldn't be able to hold. While a good deal of people did have the sense to leave before the hurricane it, many of them didn't. Hell, many people continued to stay in their homes AFTER the storm hit. The problem has never been race, it's been ignorance.

But most of the people who stayed did so because they didn't have the means to. Many of those people are out now, but still: The leevees are going to break. People who can't drive out are pretty much stuck. Some can get to the Superdome. I hate to bring up The Man, but...

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People need a scapegoat, or else chaos only arises. If people have nobody else to blame, then they're forced to *gasp* blame themselves.

Did I say the poor? I meant bootstrap-challenged individuals.

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Until I see a federal report saying "All minorities are to be left to fend for themselves", the race card is just another way of taking the blame off the people of New Orleans.

Yeah! They've got no-one to blame but themselves! They decided to be poor, and it was THEIR idea not to reenforce the leevees, not to MENTION the incompetent way they handled their directorship of FEMA! I still don't understand why they didn't send themselves food and clean water earlier, but hey, they don't think like we do.

Their fault.

[Wanchimaera]

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Yeah! They've got no-one to blame but themselves! They decided to be poor, and it was THEIR idea not to reenforce the leevees, not to MENTION the incompetent way they handled their directorship of FEMA! I still don't understand why they didn't send themselves food and clean water earlier, but hey, they don't think like we do.

Their fault.

New Orleans has a 50% high school dropout rate. Dropouts make 42% less money than high school graduates. Dropping out is a concious decision, and in most cases, a decision to be poor. These people become dependent on the government and do not act for themselves.

[Alakhriveion]

You don't hear about many wealthy suburbanites dropping out of school, do you? If you're poor and your situation doesn't allow you to pursue an education, yes, you'll remain poor. But was starting poor your fault? Was it your parents fault? Your grandparents? What if it goes back to coming here involuntarily? In places where personal wealth isn't an issue*, education and literacy are much, much more common. You can't blame people for being dealt a poor hand.

*Those damned dirty godless communists

[Korhend]

or its because of a self perpetuating problem. Kids need to drop out of school to help support their family, they grow up, are poor, need their kids to drop out of school to help support their family, see where this is going? Yes there are lazy/stupid poor people, but tell me, what makes half of New Orleans drop out? Surely thats a tad more then "statistical clustering"

[Selena]

In all fairness, you don't have to be rich to leave town. All you need is a mode of transportation (which most people have in some form or another) and a friend or family member you can crash with for a while. Naturally, everyone can't get out, but there's a staggering amount who remained, including those dipshits who occasionally come on the news and claim that no hurricane is going to make them leave. When a category 5 hurricane is a'comin' for a city that's below sealevel, there's not much you can do. I'm not one to blame such things on one group or another (I never liked it when people just resorted to blaming 'the man' or whatever else you can use as a scapegoat), but it doesn't take much to flee the immediate area.

Now, what upsets me most is the director of FEMA lying about his experience, and the fact that a background check wasn't apparently made to confirm such things. It would've been very nice to discover that BEFORE a major disaster, but alas, it's too late now. At least he's gone. But I say this all lightly, because while people are dying, those in power and the non-effected folk are sitting around pointing fingers.

Poor folk dropping out of high school is another matter.

[Alakhriveion]

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In all fairness, you don't have to be rich to leave town. All you need is a mode of transportation (which most people have in some form or another)

Stop! No they do not! Especially in a city, especially poor people will not have personal automobiles. I am sure anyone who'd abandon their home and go to the Superdome would have happily left town, given a chance.

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Naturally, everyone can't get out, but there's a staggering amount who remained, including those dipshits who occasionally come on the news and claim that no hurricane is going to make them leave. When a category 5 hurricane is a'comin' for a city that's below sealevel, there's not much you can do.

Well, a lot of the people who refuse to leave are old people who aren't leaving home. The rest are idiots. These people should be forcably evacuated. They wern't.

[Selena]

By personal transportation, I also meant their legs. There were plenty of people, after all, who headed over the bridges and away from the hellhole the city was to become. Surely they could have done that before the storm hit? It requires a lot of effort, of course, but I'd rather hike twenty to thirty miles than be stuck in New Orleans.


Now the old people... they should have been evacuated beforehand, rather than become victims that had to be rescued after the storm had flooded the streets. A lot should have been done beforehand, since they knew it was coming, but sadly not many people seemed to have the 'better safe than sorry' mindset they should have with a cat. 5 storm, which applies to both the foolish locals and those in charge.

[Alakhriveion]

Selena said

By personal transportation, I also meant their legs. There were plenty of people, after all, who headed over the bridges and away from the hellhole the city was to become. Surely they could have done that before the storm hit? It requires a lot of effort, of course, but I'd rather hike twenty to thirty miles than be stuck in New Orleans.

Yeah, but you don't have a family to bring with you.

[Selena]

My family members also have legs, I believe.


*checks*


Yes, all legs intact and attached to the body. Good to go.

Infants can be carried, and the little ones can be too after they get tired. The old folks are the ones that would need assistance, however, I admit. You can carry a supply of food that will last you a few days, and water as well, in order to get above sealevel and to the next town over, at minimum. A tent as well, if your family happens to own one.

[Alakhriveion]

So people have to carry food, water, tents, possessions, children, the elderly, and the infirm on their backs up to higher ground, weather the hurricane without a solid shelter (you can't get far enough to avoid all the weather on foot), and then just hope for the best once the food and water run out?

[Selena]

I meant going to nearest town above sealevel, but in either case you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Rather than going above ground on your own means, you can sit and wait in a disease infested city that's flooded, with the armed thugs and the looters and the military curfew, for a rescue chopper that may or may not come in time for you. The superdome was a good last resort, but even that was a hellhole according to those within.


Food, water, and possibly a tent if you can manage it. Your personal possessions don't really have anything to do with your survival. The DVD player can hold its own. And as I said, the elderly (and the sick, for that matter) would obviously have to find an alternate means of transportation out of the city before the storm, along with their caretakers. But most of the residents are of at least decent health.


But in any case, there's probably no sense arguing about it now. What's done is done.

[Ogmios22188]

Alakhriveion said

Well that's from the Onion. It's a satire of the way the media and the military have been treating the situation with looters/foragers.

Oh, I know "The Onion". I thought you were posting a legitimate article.

[Hero of Winds]

Alakhriveion said

The rest are idiots.  These people should be forcably evacuated.  They wern't.

That's the problem. Even after the hurricane hit, and the cavalry arrived in New Orleans, they still couldn't get those people to leave their homes. You can't tell me that race and class are the problem, when there are people so ignorant and/or that they'll ignore the government (both before and after the storm) and stay in their homes without food, water, clothing or any kind of sanitary living conditions.

And it's only getting worse. As the water level drops, the toxicity level rises, which makes people more susceptible to diseases and whatnot (you know, all the garbage and bodies). The problem has always been ignorance on the part of the people - whether they're white, black, rich, or poor doesn't matter.

[Dryth]

arunma said

Actually, President Bush contacted the Governor of Louisiana before Hurricane Katrina arrived, and asked him to evacuate the city. The Governor didn't oblige.

Forgive me for being a pedantic jerk, but "she", not "he", and she first, not he first in declaring emergency and calling for evacuation.


Anyway, speaking as someone who's been in touch with a number of people actually trapped in the city, it was the poor districts that were hit the hardest, and it's the poor that had the least means of escaping. Even those with cars faced massive gas shortages long before the hurricane hit, or before it was declared an emergency situation. That's the great thing about major corporations: They're the first to cut off trade and shipments when things start to go bad. Nice to think that people could carpool, but doesn't work so well when those with cars are attempting to save every worldly possession they can carry.

To those that would play down poverty as a choice: Yeah, we'll get right on curing that. And we'll just cluck our tongues at the dead for digging their own graves. Lots of people stayed, but lots of people stayed in the WTC when it was attacked. Shock hits, and common sense goes out the window. It's ignorant of the human condition to act as if people were just casually hanging around New Orleans waiting for their lives to end. People need to be evacuated well ahead of such a disaster and by force. That's where FEMA should have come in in conjunction with DHS and the National Guard (who, contrary to common claims, were fully within their right: It had been declared a disaster zone; all control falls on federal shoulders).

As far as I know Brown hasn't been fired from FEMA. He simply isn't in charge of the Katrina efforts any longer.

As for Kanye's comments, I take it with a grain of salt. More correct would have been to state that nobody cares about the poor people.

[Alakhriveion]

Well, poor people pretty much means black people. Like I said, I hate to bring up The Man, but...

[Selena]

Now, now, don't forget the white trash and rednecks.

[Alakhriveion]

OK, black people pretty much equals poor people. The point is there.

And I was under the impression that Rednecks were a subset of white trash, not a seperate group. Shouldn't be "and."

[Dryth]

True, blacks are generally poorer, particularly in urban areas. That doesn't change the fact that they're probably ignored as a result of being poor, independent of actually being black. It's also a better stance to act on for the black community: Remove race as a point of controversy and act to have poverty acknowledged as a serious concern during times of crisis. If we do treat it as a racial issue specific to Bush, how do we act on it? Not vote for him in the next election that he can't run in anyway?

[Chikara Nadir]

And if you're so determined to not bring race, educational background, or income into this - a couple days ago around thirty-some elderly bodies were found floating dead in a retirement home. Again- very, very many people who completely couldn't help themselves get out of this situation. Then there were all those old folk who made it to the Superdome or Convention center and died there, whether from malnurishment and neglect in general, the stress, lack of medication...whatever the case, the point is that it is ALWAYS those who least able to protect themselves who suffer the most.