71 replies to this topic

[Octorok]

What references to the Great Flood?

On one island they celebrate one's 35th birthday with a green coat and red
pants. They do this in the hopes of becoming like the legendary fairy, Tingle.

I consider this to be a reference.

[Crazy Penguin]

It evidently wasn't written by Tingle. That's like suggesting that Wind Waker's opening was written by Link.

[mohammedali]

If it was anything more complicated than simply "Wind Waker takes place after Majora's Mask" then why didn't they tell us so? The fact that they didn't suggests that it wasn't anything more complicated than that.

I don't think they were trying to say even that. The most SIMPLE statement they may have been making is NO statement at ALL
My point is that it doesn't prove anything, as the statement can work in both a single timeline AND a split timeline depending on the assumptions you make. As we are going by the canon, however, we cannot make these assumptions so the statement has no relavance. If MM took place in Hyrule OTOH, then I would agree with you, but as it doesn't I don't.

I consider this to be a reference.

:s: I honestly can't see how that is a reference to the great flood.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

My point is that it doesn't prove anything, as the statement can work in both a single timeline AND a split timeline

It works in a single timeline with no problem. For it to work in a split timeline you have to fanfic the idea of Termina being connected to multiple Hyrule timelines.

[mohammedali]

It works in a single timeline with no problem. For it to work in a split timeline you have to fanfic the idea of Termina being connected to multiple Hyrule timelines.

It works in a mulitiple timeline with no problem. For it to work in a single timeline you have to fanfic the idea of Termina being connected to Hyrule timeline structure.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

It works in a mulitiple timeline with no problem. For it to work in a single timeline you have to fanfic the idea of Termina being connected to Hyrule timeline structure.    

Mohammed Ali

No you don't. We see in Majora's Mask that Termina links to Hyrule.

[mohammedali]

No you don't. We see in Majora's Mask that Termina links to Hyrule.

This tells us nothing about their timestructures. I recon that Nintendo did the most logical thing which is to say they are TOTALLY unlinked. This way, MM can relate to any game or timeline as the universe is completely seperate. End of the day, you have to make assumptions for either of out theories to work, and as we are ONLY going on what is canon, and NOT CPs logical interpretation of Nintendos idea of space and time, it doesn't prove anything. Sorry, but that's the way it goes.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

This tells us nothing about their timestructures.

Since we were never told that time runs differently in Termina than it does in Hyrule then why should we worry about the idea? Also, even if Termina and Hyrule did run at different time speeds what problems would that cause in a single timeline?

[mohammedali]

Since we were never told that time runs differently in Termina than it does in Hyrule then why should we worry about the idea? Also, even if Termina and Hyrule did run at different time speeds what problems would that cause in a single timeline?

You're right. We were never told that time runs differently in Termina, BUT we were never told it runs the same either. You see it more intuitive that time is constant in both universes, I find it intuitive that they are completely unrelated universes even in terms of time.

Think of it this way... The timesplit caused a new Hyrule universe to be created (one is MMU, the other is WWU). Then Link finds ANOTHER universe called the Termina Universe (TTU). We know there is a link between the 2 Hyrule universe (Master Sword links MMU and WWU), and we know there is a link between one of the Hyrule universes and The Termina Universe (Lost Woods links MMU and TTU), so it is very possible that there is also some link between the other Hyrule universe and The Termina universe (Tingle found a link between WWU and TTU).

See, my entire point is that assumtions that should not be made are being used to invalidate the split-timeline idea even though there are ways that it is possible. If the creators DID believe in a split timeline (which I think they did given Anouwas quote), then they could have felt this quote was permissable because of Termina being another universe. i.e. for all we know, the conversation could have been as simple as 'Can we put a quote to MM in WW?' 'Sure, it's in another universe so the timesplit doesn't effect it'. It may not have been, but there is zero proof in either direction. It is impossible to say for certain, which is why it is best to say nothing at all. If you want to falsely believe that this outright disproves all timeline splits, then fine. However, keep in mind that you are making assumptions outside the canon. Oh, and it wouldn't create any problems for single timelines in either case, yet this still isn't reason enough to invalidate all timeline splits.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

The timeline split requires fanfiction to work, a single timeline does not. The version that does not require fanfiction should be assumed as correct.

It might as well be argued that Link is a hermaphrodite simply because we haven't been told that he's not a hermaphrodite.

[Vazor]

Easter Eggs, such as the MS in Oracles, is canon until contradicted by a more important aspect in another game. For example, the MS being in Oracles provides an explanation of where the MS went after breaking up underwater and how it was returned to Hyrule. However, if a future Zelda game taking place between WW and LTTP contains an alternate explanation, which is more important to the game and a more logical situation, then the MS in Oracles would be considered not canon. However, no such contradiction exists for the time being, and the MS in Oracles can be counted as canon or not, depending on your timeline theory.

[Crazy Penguin]

Easter Eggs, such as the MS in Oracles, is canon until contradicted by a more important aspect in another game.

That's a good rule to follow.

For example, the MS being in Oracles provides an explanation of where the MS went after breaking up underwater and how it was returned to Hyrule.

Not really, the Oracle games were made years before Wind Waker, and I seriously doubt that the scenario writers of Wind Waker were hinting at the Master Sword in the Oracle games. Also, the Zora that gives Link the broken sword says:

This is the Hero's Sword that a great hero gave my ancestors long ago!

And the Master Sword can also be found simply resting in Holodrum's Lost Woods.

Remember, in the Oracle games all of the "multiple choice threads" should be treated as equal unless a game explicitely suggests otherwise.

Also remember that the Oracle games were about the revival of Ganon, and at the time of their release Ganon had only been killed in LttP and LoZ - the same could also be said even now depending upon whether you see it as a straight kill in Wind Waker, but that's another discussion entirely.

[mohammedali]

The timeline split requires fanfiction to work, a single timeline does not. The version that does not require fanfiction should be assumed as correct.

Although the single timeline can work in either case, it doesn't make it definate that there are no other possibilities. If you think it disproves a split, you have to use fanfiction to explain why the time mech is linked between the 2 universe. Hence, it is an invalid arguement. Also, just because a single timeline is possible in both cases, does not automatically mean that it is the one used by the game creators. Sorry, but this really doesn't work as conclusive proof and ALSO requires fanfiction.

It might as well be argued that Link is a hermaphrodite simply because we haven't been told that he's not a hermaphrodite.

You mean he's not? Seriously though, this is completely different. Not only is it a logical possibilty that there is a timeline split, but OoT ending suggests it, Anouwa seems to outline it, and nothing has outright disproven it. Now tell me, is it the same as saying Link is a hermaphrodite?

Mohammed Ali

[Fatgoron]

you have to use fanfiction to explain why the time mech is linked between the 2 universe.

What's a time mech, and which universes are you talking about?

[Zythe]

You mean he's not? Seriously though, this is completely different. Not only is it a logical possibilty that there is a timeline split, but OoT ending suggests it, Anouwa seems to outline it, and nothing has outright disproven it. Now tell me, is it the same as saying Link is a hermaphrodite?

No it doesn't: we only see the future after a bright white light in the past. AnouMa says there are two endings, but aren't there always with time travel? Yes, MM continues in its own continuum, but the two timelines merge before TWW. It says so. Oh, and Link is a hermo. Yes. He is.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

The timeline split requires fanfiction to work, a single timeline does not. The version that does not require fanfiction should be assumed as correct.

Timeline split... Grr... That is such a misleading phrase, but timeline splits do not require fanfiction to work. Single timelines require more fanfiction than multiple timelines, because you have to explain why one game goes after another and that in a way requires fanfiction.

Multiple Timelines gives you the leeway of putting any game in any position and excluding games. That is why people say it is the easy way out and intellectually disatisfying. I think, however, it is a very good idea that Nintendo should adopt and in doing so, they wouldn't be restricted by the timeline. They would be able to make any LoZ game with any story they wanted.

[Zythe]

Yes, because a bunch of gaidens is so much better than knowing for real. <.<

[mohammedali]

No it doesn't: we only see the future after a bright white light in the past. AnouMa says there are two endings, but aren't there always with time travel? Yes, MM continues in its own continuum, but the two timelines merge before TWW. It says so. Oh, and Link is a hermo. Yes. He is.

lol. Not sure which parts you're joking about (I'm guessing Link being a hermo is one of them). Anyway, Anouma-sans detailed explination of the 2 endings only makes sence if you think about their being a timeline split. He said it takes place hundreds of years after the adult ending, so it is VERY unlikely he wanted to differentiate that from hundreds of years - 7 (i.e. child ending). Fact is, that this isn't a random thought I had, but is a logical conjecture based on the OoT ending and then further supported by an official statement.

Further note that Ganon is clearly homosexual. I mean, you would want to cover the world with darkness if you were gay and there was only one male born every 100 years in your tribe. Hmmmm, maybe all these battles with Link are like SnM for the sick fcuk. It could happen

Mohammed Ali

[SOAP]

lol. Not sure which parts you're joking about (I'm guessing Link being a hermo is one of them). Anyway, Anouma-sans detailed explination of the 2 endings only makes sence if you think about their being a timeline split. He said it takes place hundreds of years after the adult ending, so it is VERY unlikely he wanted to differentiate that from hundreds of years - 7 (i.e. child ending). Fact is, that this isn't a random thought I had, but is a logical conjecture based on the OoT ending and then further supported by an official statement.

Further note that Ganon is clearly homosexual. I mean, you would want to cover the world with darkness if you were gay and there was only one male born every 100 years in your tribe. Hmmmm, maybe all these battles with Link are like SnM for the sick fcuk. It could happen

Mohammed Ali

Oh PLEASE DO NOT turn this into another gay topic. The last time we had one of those in a Zelda forum things got weird.

[mohammedali]

Oh PLEASE DO NOT turn this into another gay topic. The last time we had one of those in a Zelda forum things got weird.

My bad. Just thought I'd lighten the mood. Ganon is not gay - infact Nabs is preggers with his baby. She's expecting in just 97 years.

Mohammed Ali

[Zythe]

Oh god. No. Let these posts be deleted/edited, please. I remember when MJ fought with Husse about this. Bah.

[Chaltab]

I've always taken the one male born 100 years into the Gerudo thing to meant that their males live a very long time. At least 100 years each.

[mohammedali]

I've always taken the one male born 100 years into the Gerudo thing to meant that their males live a very long time. At least 100 years each.

I agree. I was just messing about before. Man, Ganon could have had a good life in the desert. Any woman would want to be with the ONLY male that will be around for the next 100 years. Hmmm, do you think the woman live past 100 as well. Also, do you think Ganon ages much? Finally, as Ganon is no more, do you think that the Gerudos are all dead now (no male to reproduce and all).

Mohammed Ali

[Fatgoron]

Koume and Kotake lived to be over a 100 years old.

[MikePetersSucks]

the two timelines merge before TWW. It says so.

No it doesn't >.> and even if it did, how would that work? A world where their are two seperate histories? That would fuck things up SOOO BAD. It's even worse than a timeline split.

Koume and Kotake lived to be over a 100 years old.

They're witches, so they're not the best example.

[Fatgoron]

No it doesn't >.> and even if it did, how would that work? A world where their are two seperate histories? That would fuck things up SOOO BAD. It's even worse than a timeline split.

It happens in MM. There are a number of mutually exclusive events that occur in the game, and which are shown to have all happened during the end sequence. Unless the various timelines that link experienced during MM converged into a single timeline then the results of those events cannot possibly have all occured.

[MikePetersSucks]

MM Wasn"t a timeline converge o.O It was Link resetting time repeatedly. There's a difference. It's not like he slept for 3 days, awakened, then went back in time, and remerged the worlds. He just went back 3 days

[Fatgoron]

If Link were reseting time, then the things he did wouldn't have happened.
from midnight of the first day to one in the morning on the first day, the old lady with the bomb bag is walking through the park, and that event occurs.
As a result of this you get a shot of the old couple in the ending sequence.

At around the same time you get the letter from anju to deliver to Kafei in the stockpot inn. I've tried and these two events cannot take place in the same three day period, yet the results of both are shown in the end sequence. This cannot occur if Link is simply resetting time, since he couldn't possibly do both quests within the same three day period.
It requires a convergence of two or more realities in which he did both quests.

[Zythe]

But he is resetting time. It says so in the manual. He resets time and thus the things he did are undone (unless he is carrying a key to that event, ie. Ocarina). You see him get sucked up in a cyclone of clocks, you know.