123 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

In MC the Minish call Link Human.

[Chaltab]

I know. That Link is indeed human.

[Hero of Slime]

How is Link in Oot not Human, when in MC he is?

[Zythe]

He's not! Human is a relative term. Hylian is not human!!!

ETA:

The Hylian race can use magic, but that does not mean they are not part of the Human Species. Humans can use magic too.

ARGH! @: *insert angry face* Goddamn it! Listen to me! Magic, in the sense shown by Hylians (and, realistically, every sense) is MAKE-BELIEVE and humans cannot use it. Humans do not have magical powers. If you believe we all have innate magic-learning abilities, so you can act out your "I'm going go Willow on my school-chums" fantasies, that's fine. But using something that's completely nonsensical to back a claim which in no way supports your theory, and goes against what 99% of Zelda fans believe is ludicrous. Hylians are not humans. Fact.

[Chaltab]

Yeah really. Wind Waker made it pretty clear that a new Link doesn't have to be a descendant of an old one.

Heck, the next Link could be a Zora for all you know. Not that I'd wan't that.

[Zythe]

No, that would be assinine. I'd hate that. Seriously.

[Chaltab]

MMmmm Hmmm.

Transforming into a Zora in MM was nice, but I don't think I am ready to play a whole game as one. :cool:

[Zythe]

You just said you would.

[Chaltab]

You just said you would.

Heck, the next Link could be a Zora for all you know. Not that I'd wan't that.

Um. No I didn't?

[Zythe]

Sorry. I read "Now that I'd want". Sorry. It's late. It's 00:18. I'm tired. It's late. Sorry.

[Chaltab]

Ah, Thou art a Brit.

Heh heh.

[Octorok]

It's late. It's 00:18. I'm tired. It's late

That was redundant. And Hylians are humans, despite their differences. A Irish setter and a pug look way different, but they are both dogs so you really can't use an argument that has anything to do with looks, or "innate magic"

[Chaltab]

We wouldn't if the game hadn't first made the distinction.

[Zythe]

With the repetitiveness? It's my style. I watch too much Buffy, Dead Like Me, Friends, Charmed and Smallville... that's how they all speak. And, as for the Not!Hylians debate, when you see a human throw a lightning bolt and free the kingdom from evil, I'll give in. Also, pugs and irish setters have no abilities that aren't common to the two. A monkey and a person does though, even if they look similar... I'll also concede if a human can peel a banana with his tail.

[Hero of Slime]

We wouldn't if the game hadn't first made the distinction.

The games say there are Humans and Hylians. The game does not say they are each a different species.

[Chaltab]

This is completely off Topic, but...

Like my new avatar?!

[Octorok]

pugs and irish setters have no abilities that aren't common to the two

You're right, that was a bad example. A better one would be chihuahuas and lundehunds. Chihuahuas can crawl into tiny holes to kill rats, and lundehunds can bend their spines backward so far that the area behind their neck can touch the area in front of their tale.

[Chaltab]

None of that changes the clear distinctions made in the game. If we agree they're somewhat different, then can't we agree to disagree whether they are seperate species.

[Octorok]

Fine, we'll agree to disagree.

[Zythe]

The games say there are Humans and Hylians. The game does not say they are each a different species.

In the Zelda world, human just means ... you know ... humanoid. Hylians are not homosapiens. Although, common round-eared Hyrulians are probably just about the same.

[Chaltab]

Hylian = Race/ adjective describing things of that race

Hyrulian = Human/ adjective describing Humans of the Kingdom of Hyrule

Hyrulean = Adjective describing all things of Hyrule's world.

[MikePetersSucks]

Zythe is right though. Humanity and Hylians are two seperate species. In human ethnicities, were all basically the same except for some different colorations and things like that, but Hylians have an actual ability that's innate (without involving physical shape and all) in them that humans CAN'T use naturally. That's enough to declare them a seperate species.

[SnowsilverKat]

*puts on biology glasses*

Well, I could offer some somewhat scientific insight, if people don't get too offended.

Dogs can be so physically different from each other because of thousands of years of selective breeding, but when you look at them genetically, there's no way you could tell a Collie from a Dacshund just by looking at their DNA. The changes in dogs are most specifically cosmetic.

*takes off biology glasses*

I think what Zythe is trying to say is that he feels there are more than just cosmetic differences between Humans and Hylians. It isn't just that humans don't have pointed ears and Hylians do, there are specific physiological traits that set them distinctly apart.

If I could draw an example from Dungeons and Dragons, the races of humans and elves are quite distinct, in that elves have different physiologies (they don't need to sleep, for one, and have better eyesight in low light, for examples). Elves are not human. Humans are not elves. Yes, they can interbreed, but that's another story altogether.

But, both humans and elves are classified as 'humanoids.' When they're calling Hylians 'human' in the game, it is a similar classification.

[Zythe]

Humanoid was the very word I used, thanks for the support, guys - I knew I was right.

[Chaltab]

Yeah, just like when people call Chimps and Gorillas monkeys.

[mohammedali]

Let me start by asking all discussion of Hylian = Humans to stop. This thread is going too off-topic now. By all means, start a new topic and carry the debate on there, but not here please.

In your timeline, in what order do OoS and OoA come in?

As I haven't played the 2 games, I don't have a preference. OoS then OoA sounds good to me as I have no reason to believe otherwise. Anyone got other ideas?

The unbalanced heart thing didn't come up until Ocarina of Time so it has absolutely no relevence here.

Firstly, Nintendo could have had that quote in mind when the idea of the Triforce spliting came up. Also, the game was rereleased after OoT. Nintendo could have alternatively just thought, well it still works so let's not change it.

Zelda's Brother: Dead daddy didn't leave me the entire Triforce in his will and I can't find the rest of it.

Super Secret Mysterious Mystery Parchment of Super Secret Mysterious Mysteries: The Triforce has three parts, Power, Wisdom and Courage. Power and Wisdom have been left in the kingdom to be received. But I've hidden Courage because I couldn't find anyone worthy of it, teeheehee!

You're making part of this up. Use the link and quote you posted. It NEVER says the King didn't leave the Prince the Triforce. Both Jap and US versions suggest he couldn't inherit it for some reason. It doesn't say it was hidden by the Princes father either. In fact, if you look at the link you gave, the site suggests the Zelda is the first generation. This means that what I am saying makes much more sence as it allows this to be true AS WELL AS everything else written in the booklet. Tell me, does my idea contradict any quote from the manuel? Let me know.

Does anyone have pictures of aLttP Four Swords temple and some more info on the games they could provide me?

Mohammed Ali

[Octorok]

Yes, they can interbreed, but that's another story altogether.

If something can reproduce and produce fertile offspring, then they are the same species, no matter how diverse they are.

[Chaltab]

If something can reproduce and produce fertile offspring, then they are the same species, no matter how diverse they are.

Tell that to Deanna Troy, Alexander son of Worf, or Spock of Vulcan. That rule doesn't really apply in fantasy.

But um... We were supposed to quit arguing this here!!

[Crazy Penguin]

Firstly, Nintendo could have had that quote in mind when the idea of the Triforce spliting came up. Also, the game was rereleased after OoT. Nintendo could have alternatively just thought, well it still works so let's not change it.

You're making part of this up. Use the link and quote you posted. It NEVER says the King didn't leave the Prince the Triforce. Both Jap and US versions suggest he couldn't inherit it for some reason. It doesn't say it was hidden by the Princes father either. In fact, if you look at the link you gave, the site suggests the Zelda is the first generation. This means that what I am saying makes much more sence as it allows this to be true AS WELL AS everything else written in the booklet. Tell me, does my idea contradict any quote from the manuel? Let me know.

It's all a matter of context. The story tells us that the prince did not inherit the full Triforce from his father. It then tells us that someone had hidden the Triforce of Courage. That is not coincidence. Why bother going into the detail of the prince not inheriting the complete Triforce if it had absolutely no connection to the hidden Triforce of Courage?

If you don't think it happened the way that I explained then please explain to me what you think happened.

[mohammedali]

It's all a matter of context. The story tells us that the prince did not inherit the full Triforce from his father. It then tells us that someone had hidden the Triforce of Courage. That is not coincidence. Why bother going into the detail of the prince not inheriting the complete Triforce if it had absolutely no connection to the hidden Triforce of Courage?

If you don't think it happened the way that I explained then please explain to me what you think happened.

I've already explained it 3 times in this thread but I'll say it again to save you searching.

1) "A great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce." (King from AoL Bs)
2) "The king too was a child of man and he died." (King from AoL Bs)
3) "Then, the prince of the Kingdom became the next king, and was to inherit everything." (Prince from AoL Bs was supposed to inherit everything)
4) "When it came to the Triforce, he was only able to inherit it incompletely." (Prince from AoL Bs, who should have got the whole thing didn't - I recon this was due to the Triforce spliting)
5) The "FIRST GENERATION" Zelda was put under a sleeping spell. (Zelda from AoL ending)
6) Impa gives Link a scroll handed down many generations which tells of where the last piece of the Triforce is. This isn't stated as being written or given by the AoL Bs King at all.

So between 5 and 6 I would say...
At a point after the Triforce was brought back to Hyrule (most likely by Link after aLttP), one of the pieces (courage) was hidden. A scroll was made and given to the Impa family.

This explains how AoL Bs can work AND Sleeping Zelda can still be first generation
(i.e. at the start of the timeline).

Mohammed Ali