144 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

I think the Propeller Cap would negate a whole lot of the difficulty of there, certainly.

 

Currently I'm playing around with an Auto-Mario stage. I'm not a big fan of experiencing them, but they're really interesting to put together. It's really great for really seeing how the mechanics of the game works. That said, the working title is "You don't have to Auto-Mario" because I've prepared an alternate route at the very start where I intend to put an alternate route that you can play through normally. In fact, I'm kind of tempted to have the Auto-Mario section ultimately lead to the same place that the Alternate Route begins as a kind of trollish "you still have to play the damn level."

[Masamune]

So I finished with it. 

Don't trust the Auto-Mario...

6F91-0000-0043-5F61

 

I'll let it speak for itself. 

[SteveT]

You've fallen to the dark side, I see.  I'll play it tonight.

 

In the meantime, here's a pro-tip I discovered while guarding my gamepad from my son.  Pressing (-) in Create mode automatically starts a play session of the level from the start point.  Dying still pushes you back into Edit mode.

[Masamune]

Have I, though?

 

Yup, I do that all the time. I've gotten so used to it that I keep annoying myself when I just want to play the level from a mid-point.

[SteveT]

Yeah, that one turned out to be entertaining.  I love the subversion of the concept.

 

I put two up today:

 

Flight Test 3, SMB3 style.  This is definitely the easiest flight test, but should still be pretty fun.  I threw in a twist at the end.

 

65CC-0000-0044-0C52

 

Don't Get Caught!  Race to avoid the plague of the evil mushroom!  This is a very short, simple, level, but it was fun to design.

 

F12A-0000-0044-BFE4

[Masamune]

Flight Test 3 is very enjoyable. I love the different segment at the end in the ghost area. It very much reminded me of the World 7 Castle level. My only critique is that you could very easily screw up the P-Block and get stuck. Which I mean, that happens, but a respawning P-Block would keep you from getting into an unwinnable scenario.

 

Don't Get Caught was a fun way to make the mushroom an enemy. It was just long enough to keep it from being too annoying. The thwomps were maybe a bit excessive, since I didn't have time to really take stock of the room before I started running - so I immediately died. I also thought I was really clever for letting the mushroom get ahead of me up until it came back towards me and I ran out of time. Brutal. 

[SteveT]

That's a good point on Flight Test 3.  If it hasn't gained any traction by the time I get home tonight, that's a worthwhile change.  Otherwise, people have to kill themselves via Dry Bones.  Not horrible, but it would be nice to prevent.  I should also try timing the escape if you hit the P-switch without moving it. Glad you liked it, though!  My flight tests have been getting the most stars (not that I've collected very many) and I hope this one continues to make people happy.
 
Don't Get Caught was a fun opportunity to experiment with different ways of slowing the player down.  Calibrating the timer was a big piece of the design.  I agonized for a long time over how to prevent the player from grabbing the mushroom and damage boosting past the sawblade.  I went through three or for failed/overcomplicated designs before setting on a the very simple field of fire flowers.  I tried something with a P-switch as well, but I think it messed up the mushroom.  I didn't think of letting the mushroom pass by (which is ironic, because that's how I survived your level with the Fire Snake on rails), so I'm glad you were foiled.
 
The Thwomp trolling is unfortunate, but if you aren't running the whole time, you'll lose on the timer anyhow.  I think it's a level where you lose a life learning.  Normally, that's OK in moderation, but maybe it's a problem given the current state of SMM.
 
And speaking of, my easy levels have taught me something very important.  People give up really easily in this game.  I'd love to know how many deaths people are tolerating, because Secret Goomba only has a 70% completion rate and that boggles my mind.  I totally get rage-quitting on my harder levels, like Bowser's Gauntlet or The Floor Is Lava, because those levels are evil.  Flight Test 1 and 2 require knowing some cape mechanics that a lot of people never mastered because Mario World didn't even do much with them.  But Secret Goomba?  Come on, people.

EDIT: And that fortress was totally an influence. Good eye!

Edited by SteveT, 17 September 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Masamune]

I hear you on the whole giving up thing. There's so many troll levels, that even when I'm doing my 100 Man Marios, I will skip perfectly beatable levels if I don't make significant progress within my first three lives. Unfortunately the easier levels just are the ones that get starred, so the legitimately difficult ones just get skipped. 

 

I'm trying to start promoting some of my levels on the Mario Maker subreddit, but there's just so many people vying for attention that it's hard to get any attention. There's definitely a problem of getting noticed. Hopefully Nintendo is open to adjusting how levels are rated and displayed. Some kind of ID tagging system would go a long way to improving the experience. If I could get like six different tags I could pin on a level after I beat it, it would go a long way towards helping the game pick levels I'll actually enjoy.

 

In any case, I've made it a point to just star any level that isn't trollish and had at least thirty minutes of effort put into it. I would prefer to use my stars to 'favorite' levels, but I think it's better to just help promote decent levels over enemy swarms and Auto-Mario levels.

 

This one went through a lot of changes before I came upon something I liked. This one I came up with a sort of on-rails Train level. I wanted it to be twice as long, but I ran out of usable rails on each level so I had to settle for just two train segments. It's hard enough that this is probably just as well anyway.

 

All aboard the Boo-Train!

ID: CEDC-0000-0046-A181

 

 

EDIT: Someone else made a really, really cool train level as well. It's got a different feel and challenge than mine, but it's worth checking out: D74C-0000-0046-2DDD

 

This one made by Peer from IGN is really good. It doesn't 'move', but it works a lot like the old tank levels from SMB3, sans the autoscroll: 9981-0000-0044-F879

Edited by Masamune, 17 September 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[SteveT]

I am also trying to be generous with stars to encourage people who put some effort into making fun/interesting/tough but fair levels.  That's how this game will survive.  I've dipped my toe into the subreddit as well, but haven't put much effort into that.

 

With 100 Mario Challenge, 3 is probably a good number to assess whether a level is worth continuing.  Your budget per map is 6 lives, or 9 if they include 3 attainable extra lives, so you have to gauge risk.  Sometimes, if I really want to put the effort into beating a map, but think it will take too many trials, I'll save and quit 100 Mario and pick it up from my play history instead.

 

I may not be able to get any playtime in today, but I will look forward to the train train.

[SteveT]

I updated Flight Test 3 to take care of that P-switch problem.  As a bonus, it added another flight section.

 

Boo Train was fun.  I loved the concept. I caught a couple peeks at how you arranged for enemies to dropped and may be stealing ideas.

[SnowsilverKat]

I guess I should contribute a few of my creations...I don't attest to be a level design expert or anything, but experimenting and making levels has been rather fun!

 

Automatic Castle (Hands-Off):

BB24-0000-004B-D288

 

So I joined that bandwagon, yes.  Definitely fun playing with the physics of the game.  This took me about 3 days on and off to put together.  My favorite bit is the Super Mushroom collection.

 

 

Go Fast, Go Slow

942D-0000-003A-9E8F

 

This autoscrolling level can be a bit troll-ish, though I think it poses a genuine-but-fair challenge.  There are several hidden powerups to help out, but the level can be completed as Small Mario.  The trick is to anticipate the hazards, which will likely require some trial and error.  Fun fact: it took me about 20 minutes to clear it for upload.

[Masamune]

I updated Flight Test 3 to take care of that P-switch problem.  As a bonus, it added another flight section.

 

Boo Train was fun.  I loved the concept. I caught a couple peeks at how you arranged for enemies to dropped and may be stealing ideas.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it. The enemy drops were tough since I couldn't put it on autoscroll, so I couldn't always make them fall where I wanted. The Thwomps with P-Blocks was the best trick for it. (In earlier builds, I had enemies sitting on top of coins so that they would fall when the P-Block ran out). Did you catch on that you could use the Buzzy Beetle to kill the giant Wiggler?

 

 

I guess I should contribute a few of my creations...I don't attest to be a level design expert or anything, but experimenting and making levels has been rather fun!

 

Automatic Castle (Hands-Off):

BB24-0000-004B-D288

 

So I joined that bandwagon, yes.  Definitely fun playing with the physics of the game.  This took me about 3 days on and off to put together.  My favorite bit is the Super Mushroom collection.

 

 

Go Fast, Go Slow

942D-0000-003A-9E8F

 

This autoscrolling level can be a bit troll-ish, though I think it poses a genuine-but-fair challenge.  There are several hidden powerups to help out, but the level can be completed as Small Mario.  The trick is to anticipate the hazards, which will likely require some trial and error.  Fun fact: it took me about 20 minutes to clear it for upload.

 

 

The auto-scroll level was well done, even if I'm not a big fan of them. Though using the rails is perhaps cheating! My favorite part was the victory at the end - I loved how Mario jumped away from the axe, only to jump back to land afterward. Very fashionable.

 

I gave up on Go Fast, Go Slow - mostly because of the Wiggler section. The Thwomps felt immensely unfair since they were positioned where I was anticipating to be jumping. I didn't know where any of the secret powerups were, so I got frustrated fairly quickly with it. I like the concept in general of having to switch from quick instincts to being cautious, but the problem with the speedy sections is that there's never enough open space at the start to assess the level and begin reacting to obstacles - you just immediately die and have to adjust. 

 

Also it's nothing special, but I made my own tank level: 

1F31-0000-0048-3DD6

 

I've run out of uploads until I reach 50 coins, so now I'm going back to some of my older stages to add some polish and reupload them. 

[SteveT]

I'm behind.  I played a few of your levels, Kat.  The autoscroll put on a better show than most in the genre.  I also did not get through Fast/Slow, but I'm also feeling lazy tonight.

 

I spent way to long trying to get the Pikmin theme to work so I can make a proper Olimar level, but couldn't get past four notes.  I'll have to study how other people are making complex music happen.

 

Did you catch on that you could use the Buzzy Beetle to kill the giant Wiggler?

 

I don't think I did.  I remember being annoyed by a shell when I had bigger problems, but I don't think I did anything aggressive with it.

[Masamune]

I should have put the shell in a coin block - that would've made its purpose more obvious, I think. Oh well.

 

As for a musical stage, man, I don't have the patience for that. If you're able to manage it, more power to you. But that's hard. 

 

I redid the Chomp level and made a screenshot gallery to sort of demo it. The most significant thing I did was I added 'landing pads' made of clouds where if you stand at the start of them, Chomp will automatically pick you up and carry you away. But otherwise I did my best to make it so that no matter what happens, you can reset the section you're in and do it right - though ideally you should never have to. I also redid one section entirely and added a new one: B83C-0000-004D-6C8C

Edited by Masamune, 19 September 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[SteveT]

How did you make the gallery?  Just a bunch of self-posts on Miiverse?

 

I've given up on the musical level.  I don't have the skill or motivation to complete it.  I'm also getting really sad about my completion rates.  The Floor Is Lava has a 0 completion and it's not even trolly!  It's full of things that make players nervous and prone to error, but it's not like I have blind Thwomp attacks or Lakitus that throw hammer brothers coming out of pipes.

 

So I made a new one that I can only help will appeal to the crowd more, but probably not.  I give you Board the Hammer Ship, an adventurous romp.  Mario fights Hammer Bros. on the ground while the Hammer Ship rains thunder upon him.  Then he takes to the skies to defeat the invaders at their source!

 

I liked the concept, anyway.  73F2-0000-0051-DC3C

[Masamune]

Get to something you want to screenshot, then hit the home button. If you go to Miiverse from there, you can take a screenshot without necessarily making it into a post. Then you can just go to the Miiverse website to download them.

 

A good solid stage, as ever. The only thing that threw me off (and I felt stupid for it after) was that the place you put the beanstalk was not where I was expecting it, because the arrow made me think the way up was going to be on the other side. It was only when I had decided I would use the hammer brother on the anvil platform that I accidentally triggered the beanstalk while clearing up space to jump. Other than that probably accidental misdirection, I liked it a lot. The airships looked very nice!

 

But man, getting people to finish you courses is tough work. I've started trying to make mine easier, but I can't help but throw in some challenges as well.

 

My latest one is a tribute to the old arcade Donkey Kong games. It's a fairly easy romp except for like the third or fourth section where you have to be patient and observant to climb up. I'm particularly proud of the pipe area, simple as it is. I'm tempted to build an entire level using that mechanic. D1E5-0000-0052-8F18

Edited by Masamune, 19 September 2015 - 11:00 PM.

[SteveT]

Thanks.  I need to start submitting to reddit to get plays and the gallery should help.  I think they'd get a kick out of the Hammer Ship.

 

 

 

A good solid stage, as ever. The only thing that threw me off (and I felt stupid for it after) was that the place you put the beanstalk was not where I was expecting it, because the arrow made me think the way up was going to be on the other side. It was only when I had decided I would use the hammer brother on the anvil platform that I accidentally triggered the beanstalk while clearing up space to jump. Other than that probably accidental misdirection, I liked it a lot. The airships looked very nice!

 

It was actually intentional misdirection, of a sort.  I wanted the player to know that they shouldn't waste too much time trying to climb the ships without putting an arrow right on the beanstalk.  I guess it didn't work quite as intended.  But on the bright side, if you do manage to climb the ships, you get a propeller hat for your effort.  Good luck getting it back to land, though.  My hope was that the coin placement would trick the player into finding the beanstalk, but clearing a runway has the same effect.

 

If I go back and revise it, I'll try to improve that segment.  I also think I should move the boss fight out of the airship segment (pipe instead of door).  That way, you don't have the extra pressure of autoscroll and the transition to the exit is a little more natural.

 

 

 

But man, getting people to finish you courses is tough work. I've started trying to make mine easier, but I can't help but throw in some challenges as well.

 

Yeah, it's crazy.  You don't want them to be cakewalks, but players seem to.

 

I tried out the DK tower.  I loved the theme, and how the level is actually easier if you go for the green mushrooms.  I haven't beaten it yet, because this level has cemented in my mind that the thing I hate most of all is chain chomps on rails.  The pipe section was cool, especially since this is a level editor game and I have to think about how you pulled it off.

 

One of my long term goals for this game needs to be finding a way to turn the Triforce of Time Theory into a stage.  It will take some costume unlocks, though.

Edited by SteveT, 19 September 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[Masamune]

Hmm, I know you can get Tingle, so you have the natural transition of Young Link > Link > Tingle just begging to be used.

 

But you should win the level as Ganondorf, because in the end evil will always win, because good is dumb.

[SteveT]

I don't know if there's a Young Link costume, but Toon can stand in for him.

 

Add some coin narration along with the progression and you're golden.  Maybe start the level with humble Waluigi as the narrator.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Just uploaded my first course, Yoshi Village Secrets!

962E-0000-005F-D822

I'll try some of y'all's stages soon! But I don't know whose start with, hmmm.

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 22 September 2015 - 12:41 AM.

[Masamune]

That was a clever little level. The backtracking wasn't obvious at first, but it did make me explore the nooks and crannies. It had a very charming feel to it overall, especially with each house having a Yoshi inside. It was interesting how you had to go underground to get the fire flower, though it was a little hard having to climb back up with the spikes on the side. (That said, I was able to have Yoshi lick the fireflower from across the sections without having to go through the moles a second time.)

The rave party was funny, especially how the doors made you 'dizzy' if you went in them. I almost didn't notice the feather was something you could get in there - I almost would have not gone in there. (On that note, I liked the misdirection about doing the double jump by sacrificing Yoshi was given a wrong buzzer because seriously, this is Yoshi's village! That said, it might have worked better if there was somewhere to land so the player isn't made to lose a life on a misdirect.)

 

All in all, a fun concept. I approve. I'm making my own Yoshi-themed level where you have to guide two Yoshis to the end of the level. Inevitably you will be forced to murder one of them so that Mario and the other one can make it to the ending.

[wisp]

This topic is probably the best advertising for the game. I'm undecided but now tempted massively. I remember back in the day getting Mario Paint and realising that I'm not very good when left with numerous tools and only my imagination.

 

I worry Mario Maker would just be a repeat. At least with Mario Paint I gained a mouse.

I feel the same way. XD I don't have much entertainment money, so I've got to be reeeeally careful with newer games that still cost over 40 or 50 bucks. Mario Maker looks hard from the few ads I've seen, because I don't trust myself to be good at designing my own levels. Seeing that they apparently force you to take baby steps into it gives me mixed feelings. If they did it right, it might be good for someone like me, who doesn't feel super imaginative, but if done wrong it could also potentially just annoy me to the point of not wanting to play.

[Hana-Nezumi]

That was a clever little level. The backtracking wasn't obvious at first, but it did make me explore the nooks and crannies. It had a very charming feel to it overall, especially with each house having a Yoshi inside. It was interesting how you had to go underground to get the fire flower, though it was a little hard having to climb back up with the spikes on the side. (That said, I was able to have Yoshi lick the fireflower from across the sections without having to go through the moles a second time.)
The rave party was funny, especially how the doors made you 'dizzy' if you went in them. I almost didn't notice the feather was something you could get in there - I almost would have not gone in there. (On that note, I liked the misdirection about doing the double jump by sacrificing Yoshi was given a wrong buzzer because seriously, this is Yoshi's village! That said, it might have worked better if there was somewhere to land so the player isn't made to lose a life on a misdirect.)

All in all, a fun concept. I approve. I'm making my own Yoshi-themed level where you have to guide two Yoshis to the end of the level. Inevitably you will be forced to murder one of them so that Mario and the other one can make it to the ending.

Thanks a lot for the feedback, I'll actually be making some adjustments based on what you said. It certainly would be unfair in 100-mario mode to lose a life due to that misdirect. Also I didn't think about Yoshi being able to lick across the sections, that means you'll be able to skip the part with the moles completely so I need to fix that.

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 21 September 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[SteveT]

If they did it right, it might be good for someone like me, who doesn't feel super imaginative, but if done wrong it could also potentially just annoy me to the point of not wanting to play.

 

It would have been nice to have everything unlocked from the start, but the baby steps can be avoided.  There is a fast unlock route that brings it down from 9 days to about an hour.  Still too long, though!

 

If you're on the fence and you like Mario games, just get it.  Worst case scenario, you have a Mario game with more levels than you can ever play.  Best case, something will inspire you to start making levels.

 

I played your level, Hana.  I was into some aspects.  The theme was great, the rave was hilarious as Masa pointed out.  On the other hand, I could not for the life of me find a path to the exit.  I am a failure and I'm going to go to bed early in shame.

[Masamune]

You can get all the content unlocked if you spend about an half hour willing to spam stuff. It's kind of annoying, but at least you don't have to wait nine days. I think it's well worth the money, but different strokes for different people, so who knows?

 

Two Yoshis. You can only save one. After leading them to freedom, which will be sacrificed and which one will you take to the end?

 

"You can only save one Yoshi"

C7A5-000-005F-4B05

Edited by Masamune, 21 September 2015 - 09:53 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Ok, I made some revisions based on the feedback.

Spoiler

I added donut blocks to fall on in the big pit area. Yoshi can't lick through the wall to get the fire flower anymore, I made the mole part easier with more head room, but the climb up the spike pit a little harder, while balancing it out by adding a shortcut back along with a sort of hint, and an extra Yoshi in case you leave yours behind. I also added an effect to the cannon that shoots the feather to hopefully make it more noticeable.

I updated my post with the new ID code.


I played the Yoshi course and some of your other courses Masa. They were quite fun! "MarioXBowser shipping (get it?)" took me a lot of tries until I could beat it, and I really liked "All aboard the Boo-Train!"

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 22 September 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Masamune]

Thanks for all the stars and comments! Some of my earlier stages are less 'balanced' in my opinion. They require too much of knowing exactly what's coming and knowing when to jump and so forth. I really need to redo some of them. Hiding the flagpole behind coins AND Bowser is kind of a dick move, really. And Don't Get Singed level is just absurdly cruel when I replay it. 

[SteveT]

Don't Get Singed, I only won by letting the fire get ahead of me.  One time, the fire snake picked up the Dry Bones and I was just sad.
 
The whole, "Difficult levels!  Screw everyone!  DIE DIE DIE!" mentality was a big trap that everyone fell into early on.  I would still love it if this game had different categories of hard.  Hidden hazards is distinct from perfect jumps is distinct from Kaizo and so forth.
 
I'm also impressed that this is the first game that has made me care about Miiverse.  Getting comments on levels is amazing.  I just got one on Flight Test saying (and here I paraphrase), "Cool level.  I made something similar.  Come look."  And I will go look.  I don't know whether this makes me a dick or not, but I commented on one level saying I think that what he was trying to do would have worked better with the Mario World skin and he responded saying he agrees and was going to re-upload.  I just checked yours, Masa, and saw that one person made it his mission in life to give a detailed critique of the Chomp level.  That kind of interaction is way better than anything I've ever seen on MiiVerse before, since it's an actual conversation between players and creators.  

Edited by SteveT, 22 September 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Masamune]

That's what you're supposed to do, so at least that worked out. I just need to remove some of the blind jumps.

Your definitely right that I was all about challenging levels that forced people to play multiple times to memorize the stage. Now I try to make it so people only need a few lives to figure it out. It's not as fun in some respects, but it's the only way to get anywhere. I had to tame the Boo Train level quite a bit!

Miiverse is great though. I love the interaction, though I am not sure I'm glad or annoyed I got so much feedback scattered throughout my level like I did. I'm procrastinating on going in to fix it all.

[DarkJuno]

Man, I love this game and all the tools you can use, but I'm just not very good at making levels. I've only been semi-confident enough to put one out there, but it's nothing special.

 

Short & Simple

 

A683-0000-0034-CFF3

 

I...guess I just need to maybe spend some more time playing the random generated levels, or hell, even go back and replay Super Mario Bros again since it's been a few years and maybe get some ideas that way. I can kinda understand the philosophy of level making and whatnot, but maybe I need that spark that can get my ideas out of my head and into the creator. I know I'm definitely more interested in trying to make a "real" Mario Level then a ludicrously difficult one or a troll one.

 

Not to say I'm frustrated with the game, it's fantastic and I sorta wish they had released this at launch or close to it, since this would've easily sold the concept of the Gamepad. To be honest, I'm really curious to see if they might do something like a Metroid Maker or Legend of Zelda Maker, or if we're dreaming, team up with/Hold a gun at Capcom and make Mega Man Maker.