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#31 Selena

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 05:31 PM

Now that episodes are online, I've watched 3.  It doesn't suck!  And they address Korra's failings as an avatar!  And they realistically addressed Tenzin's unrealistic expectations!  And the Ba Sing Se is still North Korea!

 

Season 2 was already starting to lose me at this point, so I'm pretty happy about this so far.

 

 

You're not one of those people who thinks Korra is an inherently awful Avatar compared to the others, are you? I know she's often too aggressive and impetuous for her own good, but, like.... Roku's entire lifetime of fail. And Kuruk's entire lifetime of fail. And Aang may have been cuddly and inspiring, but he also ran away from his destiny and got locked in an iceberg for a hundred years while an entire nation was wiped off the earth and the others were pillaged and invaded... so....

 

I thought the show's handled Korra's avatar growing pains pretty well -- where Aang was often shown fretting due to his indecisive nature, Korra's often shown getting frustrated and emotional about how she can't find concrete resolutions to problems.

 

 

 

Which, actually, makes perfect sense in the grand scheme of things, because the history of the recent avatars is pretty much:

 

 

* Yangchen incarnation: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the / self-sacrifice for the good of all. Including sacrifice of own morals/beliefs.

 

* Kuruk incarnation: Overcompensates for previous life's sacrifice by focusing on personal satisfaction and "fun." Considered worst avatar in recent history.

 

* Kyoshi incarnation: Compensates for previous lack of responsibility by being an intimidating badass who doesn't care about your puny human feelings. what do you mean the Dai Li isn't a good idea, how dare you question your avatar?!

 

* Roku incarnation: Compensates for Kyoshi's scary disposition by being a diplomatic family man, but just ends up being wishy-washy. Fails to stop the Fire Nation war before it begins, despite having a ton of opportunities.

 

* Aang incarnation: Guilt from previous life -- he compensates by fleeing his station. Gets locked in iceberg. Fire Nation runs rampant. Freed, then has to train in secret because of how powerful the Fire Nation has become. Desire to distance self from Avatar role results in him having approximately zero control over the Avatar state until the last portion of the show. Very evasion, much stealth. Never really "gets used" to hard confrontations.

 

* Korra incarnation: Compensates for the above by being incredibly direct, hard-hitting, and quick to enter hostilities. Quick to embrace role as Avatar -- quick mastery of a fully controlled Avatar state as result. Wants to nip situations in the bud as soon as possible, sometimes resulting in hasty decision making. 

 

 

 

 

So, if you look at the Avatar as one being, then it flows together quite nicely. Aang has massive guilt for fleeing the Air Nomads on the eve of their genocide, and massive guilt for not being there to help the world for the last century -- so it makes perfect sense for Korra to be on the gung-ho side. I never understood why people rag on her and praise Aang so much, given context.



#32 SteveT

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 10:50 PM

I'll start this with the conclusion in case you want to skip the wall of text.

 

When I say that I'm happy Book 3 is addressing her shittiness as an Avatar, I'm not saying she's the worst Avatar ever.  I'm saying that I'm happy the writers are putting more effort into character development.

 

 

 

I won't address Yangchen or Kyoshi, because that info seems to come from supplemental material I'm not familiar with.  I also will cut off my discussion of Korra at the end of Book 2 because I've only just started book 3.

 

I'm not saying that Korra is a uniquely bad avatar.  I'm saying she's a poorly written bad avatar.

 

Kuruk - Yeah, he wasn't a dutiful Avatar and didn't take the role seriously.  He also lived during peacetime when the Avatar didn't have much to do.  He was just a place holder in the cycle, he knew it, and he acted like it.  I'm not sure that makes him bad, but there isn't much good to say about him either.

 

 

Your assessments of Roku and Aang are missing one critical sentence: "He acknowledged his failings and took steps to correct the damage done."

 

Roku - I'm not sure why you have such a low opinion of him.  Beating and humiliating the Fire Lord counts as wishy washy?  He attempted to prevent Sozin's war, and as long as he lived, he did.  His failure was an inability to secure lasting peace through means other than his authority as Avatar.  When Aang woke up, Roku put a lot of effort into guiding Aang toward ending the war.  He acknowledged his failings and took steps to correct the damage done.

 

Aang - Everything you said.  And then fixed it.  He started off as trying to avoid his responsibilities, but his entire character arc was devoted to becoming a good Avatar.  After much introspection and internal conflict, he took harsh steps to defeat Ozai.  He became a good enough diplomat to diffuse the residual conflict (see: The Promise).  He ushered in an era of unprecedented cooperation between the  Four Nations.

 

With Korra, she's not written as someone who acknowledges and learns from her failings.  She still responds to conflict with escalation and impotent displays of brute force.  She uses the Avatar state as a rocket booster.  She can barely maintain cordial relationship with authority figures.  But the writers don't acknowledge these things and don't allow her to grow as a character.

 

Take Amon and compare the conflict between Amon and Korra to the conflict between Aang and Ozai.  At a very high level, Aang was poorly suited to fighting Ozai because Aang's style was diplomacy and evasion.  So what did he do?  He grew as a character into someone who had the capacity to deal with Ozai in a way that would work.  Amon was a guy who twisted every display of Avatar power into fuel for his social movement.  He was a diplomatic problem, which Korra wasn't well suited to deal with.  Aang could have made peace with him over dinner, but everything Korra did proved his point that Bending is dangerous and elitist.  So what does Korra do?  Airbends him into submission.  She used the same approach she had all season, except the writers let it work because it was the last episode.

 

And the Harmonic Convergence.  Korra gets the whole backstory with Raava and Vaatu.  Vaatu got sealed away in the Spirit World because he is a supremely dangerous threat to everything in the mortal plane, and that's the whole friggin' point of the Avatar.  So how does Korra deal with the guy trying to free him?  She holds the door open.  (Note: This is a special case of bad writing.  The first spirit visit from every previous Avatar should have started with Raava and Vaatu and the whole friggin' point of the Avatar.  If Aang gave her the recap upon her awakening, she never would have let things get as far as they did in the first place.)

 

So what does she do when she actually has all the info?  She holds the door wide open for Unalaq.  And when she finally gets around to punching him super hard, she just assumes that she defeated Vaatu forever*, forgets about the whole thing, and goes on to make the single most world-breaking decision of any Avatar since Wan.  All without growing as a person.

 

So Kyoshi was just as bad because she was kind of cranky and authoritarian, or Kuruk was just as bad because he didn't have any actual shit to deal with?  They don't even compare.

 

As to Aang and Roku, they had some serious failings, but the show was about those failings, and it was about their efforts to overcome those failings and repair the damage done.  Legend of Korra isn't about Korra growing as a person.  It's about Korra punching problems into submission.  So when I say that I'm happy Book 3 is addressing her shittiness as an Avatar, I'm not saying she's the worst Avatar ever.  I'm saying that I'm happy the writers are putting more effort into character development.

 

 

 

*Even though five minutes earlier, it was established that Raava and Vaatu can't kill each other.


Edited by SteveT, 27 July 2014 - 11:05 PM.


#33 Selena

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:56 PM

I agree to a point, chiefly about the overall writing. I think the new show layout -- half-seasons, each with a villain-of-the-season rather than one big story -- hasn't done them any favors. Granted, they may have had no choice if Nick was the one who decided that. But regardless of who made the decision to go that route, the stories all feel cramped and rushed. There's not much time for character development, and most of them have remained pretty flat. The writers introduce so many huge themes and concepts -- especially in Book 2 -- but don't have time to flesh them out either.

 

Like how Book 1 was originally about Korra getting over her understandable airbending block (given all her bravado), and it started going down that track.... but then they started doing so many other things with the plot, and then "oh yeah airbending" factored back in at the last second. But by then it was so late in the game that they basically had to wizard it back in, despite Korra not really having focused on its core aspects because so many other things were going on.

 

And Book 2, holy shit. So many gigantic themes and lore expansions. Frankly, I'd have preferred Vaatu to be the endgame Book 4 villain and have all this stuff slowly built up in previous seasons (it's a little awkward to have defeated the ultimate evil halfway through a story, and then get intimidated by an evil team of puny human benders -- even if I really like that team of puny human benders). 

 

So, yeah, structure-wise, lots of problems. It's like trying to cram a novel's plot/themes into a short story with this new shorter format -- and it doesn't work well.

 

 

 

 

But I disagree that Korra hasn't changed much. She's always going to be headstrong and impetuous, in the same way that Aang was always inherently evasive and non-confrontational. That's base personality. But she's modified her behavior. For the first phases of Book 2, she tried very hard to find a non-hostile solution to the Civil War -- whereas Book 1 Korra would have charged right into action. She pulled her punches.

 

She also started out with a serious chip on her shoulder in regards to authority figures, stemming from her father and Tenzin having kept her corralled and handled in that White Lotus compound for her entire childhood -- and having lied to her about the reasons. But as things progress, she becomes more open to outside help -- and she actually starts letting other people take the lead when they know more about certain things, like Tenzin and Jinora. The whole real-plot of Book 2 was Korra achieving focus, purpose, and independence. Which I feel she accomplished.

 

So while she's definitely headstrong by nature, I do think that she's developed since Book 1. Coincidentally, Toph is incredibly flippant and destructive and headstrong, and she's a fan favorite because of those traits. Maybe that's a personality archetype that's unpalatable in a main character.

 

 

Aang - Everything you said.  And then fixed it.  

 

 

 

The thing about saying "Aang learned from his mistakes" is that Legend of Korra is still in progress, and Avatar is complete. Aang didn't really come full circle until the very end of his story (see: the giant indecisive meltdown he had right before the final fight with Ozai). 

 

 

And the Harmonic Convergence.  Korra gets the whole backstory with Raava and Vaatu.  Vaatu got sealed away in the Spirit World because he is a supremely dangerous threat to everything in the mortal plane, and that's the whole friggin' point of the Avatar.  So how does Korra deal with the guy trying to free him?  She holds the door open. 

 

 

I agree that the writing in Book 2 was super clunky, but I'm interested in why you're interpreting it like this? As soon as she learned what was really going on, she more or less scrambled to stop Unalaq -- first by trying to close the portal, then by fighting Vaatu directly and attempting to seal him back up, then by saving Raava and purifying Vaatu. You couldn't very well expect her to let Jinora die when she was being held hostage -- Aang would have caved too.

 

 

 

*Even though five minutes earlier, it was established that Raava and Vaatu can't kill each other.

 

 

 

As testament to choppy writing, that final fight was really confusing.

 

But. Raava didn't kill Vaatu -- Korra wasn't linked to Raava during that final fight, so she was fighting him by herself. I don't exactly know how Korra turned into spirit-godzilla-Korra, but it stemmed from her unlocking her chakras and embracing that glowy-eyed-higher-Avatar-self while meditating, which was something Aang turned away from back in the original series. And I guess being in that tree.. thing... allowed her to project herself like that.

 

Korra defeated Vaatu and then used Unalaq's spirit cleaning technique to "cleanse" him. I don't know what the long-term implications of that are. Or if he's coming back. Since she was a third party combatant, and since she purified rather than killed, that may have been a permanent solution. 

 

.....It was really quite unclear. The presence of Jesus Jinora descending from on high also confused me.



#34 SteveT

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:48 PM

The thing about saying "Aang learned from his mistakes" is that Legend of Korra is still in progress, and Avatar is complete. Aang didn't really come full circle until the very end of his story (see: the giant indecisive meltdown he had right before the final fight with Ozai). 

 
Except that Aang coming to terms with his role as the Avatar and what that means was the central conflict of the show.  He inched closer every season.  As soon as he came out of the block of ice, he was confronted with the ramifications of his irresponsibility, and he slowly worked towards becoming a better Avatar.  When did Korra acknowledge and confront her failings as an Avatar?  Bolded because that question is central to my point.  The only time I can think of was when she contemplated suicide because Amon took her bending away--so the only time she cared about being a good Avatar was in respect to the power set itself, not her social role.  For Aang, that was the premier.
 
 

I agree that the writing in Book 2 was super clunky, but I'm interested in why you're interpreting it like this? As soon as she learned what was really going on, she more or less scrambled to stop Unalaq -- first by trying to close the portal, then by fighting Vaatu directly and attempting to seal him back up, then by saving Raava and purifying Vaatu. You couldn't very well expect her to let Jinora die when she was being held hostage -- Aang would have caved too.

 
So much was broken that episode that it's hard to really address.  Everything from Jinora's special relevance to Unalaq ambushing and capturing Jinora to his spirit-bending powers were just so nonsensical and canon-breaking that I'd really like to say that the entire situation with Jinora being held hostage was invalid.  But let's say there was a similar hostage situation.  Yes, when it's a choice between one casualty and unleashing an evil god, then maybe you let the girl die.  And I don't think Aang would cave.  Aang was a master of finding a third option in these situations.
 

But. Raava didn't kill Vaatu -- Korra wasn't linked to Raava during that final fight, so she was fighting him by herself. I don't exactly know how Korra turned into spirit-godzilla-Korra, but it stemmed from her unlocking her chakras and embracing that glowy-eyed-higher-Avatar-self while meditating, which was something Aang turned away from back in the original series. And I guess being in that tree.. thing... allowed her to project herself like that.
 

Korra defeated Vaatu and then used Unalaq's spirit cleaning technique to "cleanse" him. I don't know what the long-term implications of that are. Or if he's coming back. Since she was a third party combatant, and since she purified rather than killed, that may have been a permanent solution.

 
This all reeks of apologetics.  What does it mean to cleanse a god?  How can you tell she cleansed him instead of subdued or killed him?  How can you compare Korzilla to giant celestial Aang in the same paragraph that you point out she was cut off from Raava at the time (or, to phrase is more correctly: How did the writers think that was valid)?  If Vaatu's equal can't kill him, what makes you think someone sitting in a tree can?  There's so much in that episode that was unclear, unexplained, or violating established canon that the only way to describe it is shoddily written.

Addendum:

For the first phases of Book 2, she tried very hard to find a non-hostile solution to the Civil War -- whereas Book 1 Korra would have charged right into action. She pulled her punches.


You mean like prison breaks and trying to escalate the war by involving Republic City and the Fire Nation?

Edited by SteveT, 28 July 2014 - 01:52 PM.


#35 SteveT

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 02:00 PM

One more addition, Toph edition.

 

Toph was a jerk, no doubt.  I think it's as you say, that a snarky destructive supporting character is easier to enjoy than a brash, destructive main character.  You also have to take the setting into account.  Most of Korra's problems tend to be diplomatic ones.  Amon and Unalaq were just begging for a rational debate to calm them down.  Korra didn't change her strategy.  Toph probably wouldn't have either.  But Toph was effective and enjoyable because either she was using her jerkish tendencies for the good of mankind, or she was the driver of conflict within the Gaang.  She had a lot of clashes with Katara, and usually changed a little as a result.  By the end, she was limited to background snark and combat badassery, which works great for her archetype.

 

Also, I totally agree that more buildup for Raava and Natu would be been nice.  Slowly explaining the Avatar origins while taking the time to reconcile the changes/additions to established canon would have made the whole thing look like less of a sloppy retcon.  It would have made for a good finale, but I do like the idea of showing the ramifications.  It sounds like it worked fine as a new Season of Korra, but also could have been used to fuel stories about the next Avatar.



#36 Selena

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 04:51 PM

I quote out of sequence because of reasons as vague as Book 2's ending.
 

 This all reeks of apologetics.  What does it mean to cleanse a god?  How can you tell she cleansed him instead of subdued or killed him?  How can you compare Korzilla to giant celestial Aang in the same paragraph that you point out she was cut off from Raava at the time (or, to phrase is more correctly: How did the writers think that was valid)?  If Vaatu's equal can't kill him, what makes you think someone sitting in a tree can?  There's so much in that episode that was unclear, unexplained, or violating established canon that the only way to describe it is shoddily written.
 

 
Haaa.... yeah.... most of that stuff I had to get from the wiki (and by extension, commentary on the DVDs which ended up in the wiki). I looked it up after the show ended because I honestly had no idea what was going on, which is a problem in and of itself. I'm still not sure how Korzilla works, or why the creators thought Avatar Pacific Rim was a good route to go for their final duel.
 
Tenzin did briefly explain that connecting with your Celestial self unlocked some.. sort... of power. It's been a while since I watched it, so I forget the exact wording. The Celestial self is a higher form of the individual, while Raava is a separate entity. Aang couldn't properly harness his Celestial self because of earthly attachments (primarily to Katara), whereas Korra has fewer attachments and is more focused on her duty/purpose.
 
The whole Book 2 finale and the stuff introduced there is really one of the main reasons I would have liked longer seasons and Vaatu at the very end of the show-- so this could all be fleshed out. Because massive confusion and info-dumping. An entire show could have been made about the showdown with Vaatu.
 

 
You mean like prison breaks and trying to escalate the war by involving Republic City and the Fire Nation? 
 
 

 
Aang was a good diplomat, but he wasn't able to talk his way out of every situation. Given that Unalaq had superior manpower, he had no genuine reason to back off.
 
Korra tried and failed to mediate, then acquired proof (directly through her musclebound nature) that Unalaq had been manipulating the legal system to depose the leaders of the Southern tribe. With Unalaq's troops firmly in control of the South, there were no avenues of mediation left. Korra was hoping to get the world's equivalent of NATO to intervene before the fighting broke out -- which is itself a form of mediation. It's not that unreasonable.
 
 I consider this progress from Book 1 Korra, who would have more than likely tried to jump into hostilities directly, resulting in massive collateral damage.
 
 

  But let's say there was a similar hostage situation.  Yes, when it's a choice between one casualty and unleashing an evil god, then maybe you let the girl die.  And I don't think Aang would cave.  Aang was a master of finding a third option in these situations.
 

 
Well, it's also a children's show, so I highly doubt "let the girl die" would have been a valid option even if it makes the most logical sense.  :P
 
And really? Come on, Aang would have totally caved -- he placed immensely high value on his loved ones. Moreso than anything else, really. Remember when that Earth general was trying to kill Katara to trigger the Avatar state? The only reason he couldn't cave quicker is because he couldn't activate it on his own.
 

 Except that Aang coming to terms with his role as the Avatar and what that means was the central conflict of the show.  He inched closer every season.  As soon as he came out of the block of ice, he was confronted with the ramifications of his irresponsibility, and he slowly worked towards becoming a better Avatar.  When did Korra acknowledge and confront her failings as an Avatar?  
 

 
Well, that's the key reason why Aang overcoming his faults took greater precedence -- the whole show was one big enhanced redemption arc.
 
Korra's is not a redemption arc. If anything, Korra is more about coming into one's own. As an allusion to those awkward teenager years. She makes mistakes, she's proud, she's bullheaded. But her arc is less about making up for stuff she did, and more about pushing forward and adapting to changing situations as they happen. She's had numerous scenes where she expresses frustration and disappointment with herself for all her shortcomings. 
 
She changes, it just doesn't get called out in the same way as it was with Aang. 
 
Book 1 Korra:
  • Immediately clashes with authority (metalbending police fight, being flippant with Lin, arguments with Tenzin, etc.)
  • Questionable emotional responses (destroying those air panel things, being catty with Asami, joining Tarrlok's force because of pressure, yelling, etc.)
  • Pays no attention to spirituality at all (minus Aang visions, which were largely against her will)
  • Picks fights with everyone (Mako, random citizens, the list goes on)
  • Limited to no tact while dealing with tricky diplomatic situations (revealing Amon, busting Hiroshi)
 
Book 2, Transitional Korra:
  • Clashes with authority at the onset (Tenzin), but recognizes her mistake and reconciles, fostering healthy relationships.
  • Snaps at everyone at first due to frustration from feeling dependent, then grows calmer and more controlled by season's end.
  • Shows more openness for meditation and spirituality (stuff with Jinora, and the conclusion of the fight with Vaatu had her bow and say "be at peace" rather than "BOO YEAH IN YOUR FACE" a la Book 1 Korra.)
  • Forms deeper connection with Avatar role (Raava stuff), and finds comfort and independence in herself.
  • Still shit at diplomacy, but less impetuous than she was in Book 1 (Korra going off on her own to fight Amon in Book 1 vs. getting aid from groups and world powers in Book 2).
 
Book 3 Korra:
  • Healthy and respectful relationship with Tenzin, shows respect for the Earth Queen even though she's an ass. She clashes with Raiko because he's deliberately trying to make her look bad and fails to acknowledge that vines are a minor improvement to being destroyed by Vaatu.
  • Only snapping at people she's directly at odds with -- not just because she's angry. She snaps at Lin (you may not be at that point) but has good reason to.
  • Spirituality hasn't really been a focus in this Book so much, so hard to say about that -- but she's comfortable walking with spirits.
  • Still confident in self and pretty centered, even if things don't always go her way. 
  • Still shit at diplomacy, but thinking things through even more than in previous seasons -- quickly suspected the Earth Queen's true intentions, and didn't make a spectacle by calling her out in public. Waited for further developments.
 
So, she is changing and growing, at least in my book. But she's not as reflective as Aang is, so she's not really stopping to go "wow, I am a bad Avatar, let me think about how to change that." She's more active, and reacts to situations as they happen.
 
 
 
 
Toph may have actually been a bad comparison -- Zuko may have been more accurate. He's emotional, moody, selfish, quick to fight, and has strained relationships with everyone. He's also bad at diplomacy and intrigue, given how easily Azula can manipulate him. Zuko and Korra are both wangsty teenagers who have poor control of their emotions. They bulldoze their way into adulthood.
 
Obviously, Zuko made amends with Iroh and changed -- but that was also something that happened near the end game of Avatar. In the mid-portion, which Korra's in now, he was still kind of an insufferable jerk. And outright betrayed iroh, so he was at his most jerkilicious. I only watched the series after it was all done, so I don't know what fan opinion was of Zuko at this point, but I know he's a big fan favorite in spite of his angst, while Korra is still often reviled. Which I think is unfair.
 
Korra has no central antagonist like Ozai was to Zuko and Aang (both with obviously different conflicts). She has no one to focus her anger on, so it kind of spills out all over the place, and there's no clear path to "fixing herself." You can chart Aang and Zuko's developments easily, but Korra is harder to track because there's no singular focus for her teenage wangst -- beyond trying to get through various crises as best she can.
 
But, since we have more show to go, and since I think she's changed quite a bit already, I think there's still more room for her to grow.

#37 Masamune

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 09:42 PM

I have only two things to contribute here:

 

1. Everyone gives Kuruk a hard time as the worse Avatar. Why? He had one failing and it was entirely a personal and extremely localized issue with one of the Spirits. A spirit who decided to punish Kuruk for the terrible crime of being a bit of a show off. Besides that incident, we have no inclination that anything ever happened during his time as an Avatar. If anything, he was probably the best one they've had in recent incarnations. 

 

2. I look at the problem of Legend of Korra is that not only are the seasons too short, but that S1's character development was rushed. They tried to tell Korra's development all in one season, but when they got renewed for more seasons, , they backtracked with her some. Why? Because they wanted to spend more time on her development of certain traits (like her impulsiveness) than what they spent in such a short time in S1. It wasn't good writing at all, but I've found that the transition from S2 and S3 has been a lot smoother for her. I don't see any points where I've seen her regress, whereas it seemed egregious in S2 where she seemed to have forgotten everything she learned in S1. 



#38 SteveT

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:00 PM

Well, it's also a children's show, so I highly doubt "let the girl die" would have been a valid option even if it makes the most logical sense.

 

That's no excuse.  And your'e still presenting this as a binary problem.  Aang and Sokka would have come up with some zany madcap third option that would have totally worked.

 

Well, that's the key reason why Aang overcoming his faults took greater precedence -- the whole show was one big enhanced redemption arc.

I am 100% with you on this point.  Interesting that you bring up Zuko, because as I was typing up the last one, I was thinking about how Zuko was really a massive foil for Aang.  They are both following a redemption arc, except that Zuko's starts off horribly misguided.  Breaking through the emotional trauma inflicted takes almost the whole length of the show, and he eventually realizes that he's been wasting his time trying to regain his honor, because he eventually figures out that the people he's trying to regain standing with have such a corrupted definition of honor in the first place.

 

Season Two has a particularly interesting parallel.  In the finale, Aang's major decision is to take a few steps back in accepting his role as Avatar.  He has the opportunity to become fully awakened, but backs off because he's too attached to Katara.  Zuko has the opportunity to turn his back on Ozai and Azula and truly become a man of honor, but backs out because he can't beat the brainwashing no matter how hard Iroh tries to help him.  

 

I'm also curious about fan reactions to Zuko.  He was always straddling the line between anti-hero and villain, so I would imagine that fan reaction split both ways.  But he was also outrageously angsty (see: the time he wasn't a complete dick for five minutes, and it practically put him into a coma).  My reaction to him started as, "Eww, gross," in Book One, to hope and frustration in Book Two, to acceptance and respect in Book Three.  I imagine that's what the creators wanted.

 

Back to Korra!  I'm farther along now.  I watched three more tonight.  It's apparent now that Korra has grown, and has experienced some meaningful development.  She's merrily going around doing Avatar stuff in a manner befitting the Avatar.  She's much more effective and likable now.  So I'm willing to say that Book Two was the problem, and Korra only looked like such a terrible Avatar because everything else about the season was terrible.



#39 Egann

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:48 AM

 

2. I look at the problem of Legend of Korra is that not only are the seasons too short, but that S1's character development was rushed. They tried to tell Korra's development all in one season, but when they got renewed for more seasons, , they backtracked with her some. Why? Because they wanted to spend more time on her development of certain traits (like her impulsiveness) than what they spent in such a short time in S1. It wasn't good writing at all, but I've found that the transition from S2 and S3 has been a lot smoother for her. I don't see any points where I've seen her regress, whereas it seemed egregious in S2 where she seemed to have forgotten everything she learned in S1. 

 

Korra has paradoxical pacing problems. On the one hand the core story is compressed to fit 12 episodes, but on the other hand 12 episodes is too many and we wind up with slow or filler episodes in the middle while we wait for the plot to advance. Sometimes Korra's character has to backtrack a bit to fill in the middle of the seasons. Korra really needed a 40-minute episode format, but then the same "content" would be 6 episodes. it's hard to call a half dozen episodes a season; the skimpy content would be obvious.

 

I find it odd, though, that for Korra targeting an older audience, Korra feels creative in the world-building and safe in the story-telling.

 

Also, I don't think Korra is the weak point in the series. Asami is. I still don't see Asami as having a clear purpose in Team Avatar, besides that these are her friends and she kinda has nothing better to do with her life. That's a good enough character reason to be in the group, but aside from airships which could be handwaved, she doesn't really seem to offer the group anything irreplaceable. 

 

I hate saying it because back in S1 we saw Asami do some pretty cool stuff, but since then she's basically been a Watson at best and a flake at worst.


Edited by Egann, 30 July 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#40 Selena

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:14 PM

This is true -- which is sad, because Asami has a lot of potential and is one of my favorite characters. It's not often writers make the "prissy/pretty girl" the "gearhead" character. And she's the delightfully badass non-bender. But she's easily the least developed member of the team, and that's saying a lot, because none of them are really all that developed.

 

Maybe too many characters for the length of season. Not enough time to focus on all of them. If they'd had a smaller cast, it'd feel more personal. But I think that's yet another symptom of them going from a big series to a short one -- they're used to the bigger cast and felt compelled to have one. And they've only added more as the show progresses.

 

 

 

That's no excuse.  And your'e still presenting this as a binary problem.  Aang and Sokka would have come up with some zany madcap third option that would have totally worked.

 

I don't see much legitimate wiggle room within the scene itself -- Aang and Sokka were clever, not miracle workers, and they weren't able to weasel their way out of every single situation ever (which would be another form of bad writing, as no-win situations are a grim reality). But you're right in that the whole sequence itself was so poorly structured that every decision seems like a bad one, because none of what happens is really all that sensible to begin with.*

 

* Although I did rather enjoy the shock that came from Raava/the previous Avatars being destroyed, just because I don't think many people saw that coming -- in the same way nobody expected Azula to nearly kill Aang mid-Avatar state during the Book 2 finale.

 

 

And I agree with the general consensus that the S1 -> S2 jump was awkward. This is partially understandable, since Korra was originally a one-season miniseries. Going back into it, and planning for a continuing storyline (but with no real mention of Amon thereafter) was sloppily handled. Wish Nick had given them more wiggle room. They almost didn't give the green light at all, for no reason other than the main character was female.



#41 Selena

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:38 AM

Double-post because new episode! Remember, they're debuting the episodes on Nick.com now. Usually at noon (eastern time, I think). It must have had a decent audience, too, because the episode was seemingly unavailable due to traffic when I tried to watch it this afternoon. Hopefully continued success will show Nick that times are indeed a-changin', and that keeping series available online is good business. 

 

Anyway. I really liked this one -- it was a nice balance of suspense, action, deeper plot, and some lighthearted comic relief. Good pacing.

 

But the big stuff. New lore and solid development.

 

 

 

We finally learn the aims and history of the bad-bender-foursome. At least someone. They split off from the White Lotus -- and this is a good callback to the original series, as what Zaheer says is at least someone true. In the original series, The Order of the White Lotus was a secret society of sages and elite benders. They transcended the four nations, as they were more concerned with overall harmony and beauty. By the Legend of Korra, it's not the same. They are, as Zaheer says, glorified bodyguards of the Avatar. Elite benders have been replaced with faceless mooks in robes, and none of them retain the same passion for wisdom as the original order.

 

So, the schism -- the Red Lotus becomes the more traditionally-minded offshoot of the original order. They are more interested in the global perspective. They do not serve the Avatar. They focus on trying to make the world "as it should be." Zaheer and his team are all Red Lotus members. So was Unalaq, before he went off the rails. And, much like the classic White Lotus in the original series, they are all elite benders.

 

Zaheer's the classic anarchist. As his world views transcend the four nations, he wishes to depose all world leaders, deeming them corrupt and destructive (see: Ozai, Earth Kingdom monarchs, Raiko).

 

He also sought to break down the barriers between the Spirit World and Physical World, but Korra did this on her own while he was still in prison. This is interesting to me. He seems to want to "reset" the world to be as the natural order originally intended. Basic natural order is not an inherently pleasant thing. Think of everything that has changed since the time of Wan: 

 

 

- Vaatu's imprisonment was against the natural way of things. Raava and Vaatu battle regularly, and it's natural for Vaatu to occasionally win -- and he statistically has won at least a few rounds in previous Harmonic cycles. In a way, he's like the reset button. He destroys broken, old cycles. Raava rebuilts fresh and clean. It's like formatting an old computer that's on the fritz. Imprisoning Vaatu was only good for selfish mortals. In the grand scheme of things, taking him out of the equation may do more longterm harm than good -- as the world now has no way to "reboot" when shit gets messed up beyond repair. Ragnarok has been cancelled. 

 

- The Spirit World was never meant to be disconnected from the Physical World -- that was a call Wan made based off his own personal experiences. Also against the natural order.

 

- Human benders are technically against the natural order, too, and the source of conflict between humans and spirits -- a potential callback to Amon, should they take up that thread. He may have also been a member of the Red Lotus, tasked with removing bending from humans. But the writers don't really like to reference Amon, so they might not do this.

 

- The Avatar is not a natural entity. While they may not wish to kill Korra, they may wish to strip her of her Avatar powers. Unalaq was another member of the Red Lotus, and he successfully did this in his own screwball way before fucking up.

 

 

 

 

As always with Korra, I love many of the themes they introduce, it's just a matter of executing them properly. But. Interesting stuff. The Red Lotus may be the overarching bad-guy in the new series, should all villains be members of it. But that's just a theory of mine.

 

There's also a theory that Lin's sister is involved.



#42 SteveT

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:28 AM

Yeah, this episode was good stuff.  I'm generally not a fan of villains who act according to an obtuse philosophy that can only work in theory. But then, he's a student of Air Nomad culture and now an airbender, so obtuse philosophy is perfectly fair for him.

 

I like the idea of the Red Lotus and Unalaq being a rogue member.  I also like the continued theme of Korra being a horrible judge of character with a tendency to accidentally help the villains.  This season, that's been being shown as a deliberate character trait rather than sloppy writing.



#43 Egann

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:41 AM

Really dialed up the tension, eh? Good job. We're finally done with filler episodes now that we only have...three episodes likely left in the season?

 

It's great that we now have two villains holding Korra on opposite sides. We have the totalitarian Earth Queen on one side and now the radical anarchist Zaheer. It's clear that Korra's purpose is to balance these two out. It's also great that Nick is taking a modern spin on the Eastern cyclical history models. Typically religions and philosophies which have reincarnation or cyclical views of history have relatively stagnant views of time. And remember, through practically all of human history change was so slow a stagnant view of history made perfect sense.

 

Legend of Korra, however, is clearly a modern take on this. Just like in our own universe, change is happening at an aggressive and terrifying pace. In part, that's because Korra has a ton of change to deal with as the first avatar of the new era, but Aang also made a lot of change in his time when he made Republic City. History has a definite flow which no one could reasonably call stagnant.

 

Also, I totally expect Korra's metal-bending to come into play next episode.

 

 

The lore bit of this episode comes down to one question. Why did the White Lotus feel the need to come out of the shadows?

 

Earlier, when we heard that Zaheer had tried to kidnap Korra, it made perfect sense for the White Lotus to step in and protect her because it was a reaction. Now, however, we get a sense that the White Lotus stepped in before that. Why? Avatar Aang had the Air Acolytes and an order of firebenders serving him, not to mention Toph in the police and Sokka in Republic City's council. Aang was already well connected and didn't need the White Lotus to overtly help him.



#44 SteveT

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:51 AM

The lore bit of this episode comes down to one question. Why did the White Lotus feel the need to come out of the shadows?

 

Ahem.

 

 

So they seem to have come out to liberate Ba Sing Se as an independent coalition.  They seem to be a more powerful version of the UN at this point: an independent faction with force of law that deals with international threats.



#45 Selena

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:55 PM

The White Lotus supposedly because the "Avatar bodyguard unit" at the request of Aang, according to creator commentary. Which could mean that the Lotus schism happened during Aang's elderly years, and he was worried that the Red Lotus would find a way to abduct his future incarnation.

 

If what Zaheer says has any weight, then the Red Lotus would have raised Korra in accordance with their morals -- then they would have ordered her to re-open the spirit world portals. Aang may have wished to prevent that. 

 

Korra, of course, opened the portals back up on her own accord. Which Zaheer might use as leverage to convince Korra that she ultimately agrees with Red Lotus philosophy.



#46 Egann

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:24 PM

 

The lore bit of this episode comes down to one question. Why did the White Lotus feel the need to come out of the shadows?

 

Ahem.

 

<snip>

 

Oh, yeah. I forgot about Ba Sing Se. Although that looks odd in retrospect because it's kinda like the Masons storming Baghdad.

 

Still, there's a huge tonal shift behind the White Lotus. Originally it was an old-boys network and the members happened to (mostly) be adept benders or martial artists. Now it's a straight up paramilitary organization, complete with uniforms and even manning high security prisons. There's even a twinge of "I don't trust you" to the White Lotus now because how did it react to Red Lotus trying to abduct Korra? By abducting her with parental consent.

 

We're totally the good guys here.

 

The old White Lotus would have planted a friend or mentor next to her like Iroh was for Zuko, and probably manipulated a legit entity (such as the Water Tribe's government) into stepping in and protecting her. Subtle, level-handed, and doesn't mess with the Avatar's free will, but ensures that there will be a badass at hand.

 

The White Lotus supposedly because the "Avatar bodyguard unit" at the request of Aang, according to creator commentary. Which could mean that the Lotus schism happened during Aang's elderly years, and he was worried that the Red Lotus would find a way to abduct his future incarnation.

 

That would have been an absolutely terrible idea. My next incarnation is in trouble from a splinter faction of the White Lotus. Who shall we trust when the White Lotus could be brimming with insiders and defectors? The White Lotus. 

 

*facepalm*

 

I expect Aang had reason to suspect that someone would be after his future incarnation. Quite likely Zaheer approached Aang like he did Korra. If, however, Aang knew or suspected the White Lotus was going through a schism and he still brought them in...he was an absolute idiot.



#47 Selena

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 02:04 PM

Well, episode 10 is now streaming.

 

 

Holy shit, they straight up murdered somebody on screen. Until now, most series deaths have been vague-deaths that occur away from the camera (like Zhao). But nope. Really obvious on screen murder -- and slowly drawn out, too. 

 

People have theorized about that subskill of airbending for a while. The air equivalent of bloodbending. And.... yeeesh. 

 

 

 

edit: I also love how the old folks' plan to rescue Korra seemingly involved Zuko, Tonraq, and Lin sitting down to have a two martini lunch and then hoping she'd show up on her own.



#48 Egann

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 03:53 PM

:O.o:

 

 

I did NOT see that coming. OK, I kinda did in the "two seconds before the fact" way that doesn't really count. YIPES.



#49 Selena

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

*flails* 

 

Gahh! Another intense episode. I was all stressed out during the last minute of it. They didn't show that he died -- and I'm sure he's still alive, just badly beaten up -- but ugh. He was so determined and unwilling to surrender. The Red Lotus will probably use him as a hostage in the next episode against Korra.

 

Still, the determination with which all the siblings fought. Oh, man. I felt so bad.

 

The Red Lotus really knows how to divide and conquer -- they have really good teamwork. Together, they're like an Avatar in many bodies. They move as one. 



#50 Masamune

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 03:59 PM

Spoiler



#51 Jasi

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:41 PM

holy BALLS.



#52 SteveT

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:51 PM

Ok, wow.  That was a brutal episode.

 

Spoiler

Edited by SteveT, 15 August 2014 - 09:54 PM.


#53 Selena

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:37 PM

Spoiler

 

 

 

I'll say it again -- massively impressed with this season, even when compared to some arcs of the original series.



#54 SteveT

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:45 PM

Here's the screencaps (thanks, OP).

 



#55 Masamune

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 11:10 PM

Spoiler



#56 Selena

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 11:23 PM

Spoiler

 

 

It makes me nervous!

 

Although speaking of Game of Thrones...

 

tumblr_nad9h3QLYQ1rugbxxo1_500.png



#57 SteveT

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 11:41 PM

Spoiler



#58 Egann

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 09:55 AM

Spoiler

Edited by Egann, 16 August 2014 - 09:56 AM.


#59 Selena

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:34 PM

Finale is up now. Holy shit.

 

Putting it all under tags for now, since not everyone's seen it yet.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Daaaamn.

 

That out of the way, I'm really glad they didn't focus on romance this season -- freed up the story for actual plot, and it made every character much more appealing because there was less drama. Definitely helped make the season smoother.

 

Book 3 is easily one of my favorite parts in the entire Avatar franchise. Exceptionally well done.



#60 Egann

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:26 PM

BREAKING NEWS: ASAMI DID SOMETHING USEFUL...Once.

 

Spoiler

 

On the whole I liked Season 2 better, but only just.






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