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#1 JRPomazon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:20 PM

So I know I'm pretty much waking Godzilla with a topic like this and I'm expecting to get some alienation by at least some of you. But here we go.

 

Facebook announced that they have now over fifty different options for genders that people can go place in their profile.

http://www.cnn.com/2...-gender-custom/

 

I feel this is the first sign of a very different direction in what we call gender. Sure, people have been calling themselves whatever for ages now, but it was always something that wasn't so largely focused on until recently with stories of transgender people asking for their own bathroom and etc. (http://usnews.nbcnew...ts-rights-court)

I can understand that in this day in age, there are folks who are guys, folks who are girls, folks who are guys but identify as girls, folks who were girls but had a surgery and are now anatomically built like guys, etc. People can be whoever they want to be. But I feel that the gender issue, topic, whatever you call it, it's just gone a little out of hand. Now it feels that categories have gone and splintered off into a multitude of different distinctions and options. It honestly feels to me like a science fiction show or a comic book series with multiple universes and feels just as realistic. And it feels as though there is a strong presence in society that is pampering people with this idea that they are whoever they want to be and we're even encouraging people to go the lengths of creating their own place in the gender spectrum to modifying their own bodies to meet with these mentalities.

 

Now I'm someone who was raised with a more traditional Christian mindset but you wouldn't be seeing me protesting a gay wedding or burning down a synagogue. But there comes a point where I think people have confused their preferences for their actual genetics and I can't help but wonder why we're encouraging this as a society? Because it doesn't hurt anyone? Because people should be able to express themselves? Well those are all nice things and I'm a big fan of both of them. But still, should things be this complicated? Should social norms in any place in the world be altered, radically or otherwise, so that a minority of people can feel more acclimated to society? And yes, that very question could be applied to race or religion or whatever, but I don't think gender should be elevated to the same place as these things because at the core, gender is a surprisingly simple thing that has somehow become much much more difficult than it has to be.

 

I suppose at the heart of all this, I'm just someone who prefers simple resolutions to these types of things and the idea of making things more complicated than they have to be such seems counter-intuitive.


Edited by JRPomazon, 13 February 2014 - 11:20 PM.


#2 Selena

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:39 AM

Uh oh.

 

 

 

 

In the interest of fairness, I understand your viewpoint. There are eleventy-billion labels for gender and sexual identity out there -- and it can be incredibly confusing and overwhelming and frustrating even for the people who would use said labels. Some people find power and safety in labels. I know that I've always hated them. I don't even call myself a lesbian unless labeling myself in some way is unavoidable. And when someone describes themselves using a whole chain of labels, it's easy to have a "...really? :| " moment.

 

(It's not necessarily like that with everyone, though. Modern Native American LGBT folk use the term "two-spirit" as something of an umbrella term for everyone who isn't strictly heterosexual and/or a conventional gender -- which is an approach I've always liked better, because it doesn't box people in and creates a greater sense of community.)

 

 

 

 

 

That said.

 

 

Gender identity has never been a simple thing, even throughout history. "Third gender" identities have existed in many cultures. Some still do, though extensive missionary work greatly reduced how common this was. Each culture had their own terms for the third gender -- sometimes one umbrella term, sometimes several more specific terms. They had their own roles in society, distinct from male and female gender roles. Often served as mediators and spiritual leaders. Some didn't "assign" kids a gender at birth, and the kid later picked their own gender expression. And would from that point on be referred to as a man or woman or "other" as they wished.

 

But that's ancient history, and I doubt many people care much about that because we're not living in ancient history anymore. We're living now.

 

And now, yes, there's a confusing cluster of labels. Maybe because all those old traditions were lost and people are just kind of going every which way in a blind-but-well-meaning attempt to reclaim the old third gender roles.

 

 

 

There are many reasons why someone chooses an alternate gender label. Because, again, gender has never been binary or simplistic once you peel back the layers. Sometimes it's because they physically feel more in tune with one gender. Sometimes it's because of personality or character reasons -- and they feel like they need to appeal to society's strictly binary view on gender ("Well, I've always acted more like a man and people say I'm such a 'bad' woman, so...."). Or sometimes they just don't like to be boxed in, because they themselves are kind of all over the place. Whatever the reason, sometimes they just feel like they "belong" with a gender other than the one they were born into.

 

There are a lot of reasons.

 

 

Of course, a lot of people don't like it. A lot of people think that it's weird. Or unnecessary. Or pointless. Because the conventional way is so simple and easy, and this is the way it's always been since any of us can remember, so why go changing everything to accommodate this small fraction of the population?

 

This is a natural, uncomfortable response to not having full control of a thing anymore. If you are a white male Christian, you've gone unchallenged for the last several hundred years in American and European society. Smaller groups were more or less nuisances that could be ignored. You've had it your way, 100% of the time, until just very recently. And losing that, even a bit, makes the traditional holders of power feel challenged -- and that's "uncomfortable." Because now there has to be compromise.

 

 

It is seen anywhere. Women of all creeds have traditionally been lashed out at for taking more domineering roles in society -- even today. More so if they were a woman of color. Assertive women are called bitches. Sluts. People tell us we have no place in certain professions that we are more than qualified for. Championing for more rights is seen as women being "nuisances." Or we're told to just "get over it already" when we complain about a thing that affects us. Like wanting equal pay.

 

It's seen whenever a Mexican-American flies the Mexican flag on their own property. Not because they place their native culture above their current nationality. Because it's always been acceptable for people like me to fly Swedish flags on our property. For me, proudly displaying my Swedish heritage can be a source of pleasant conversation and friend-making, because some Norwegian will come along and try to playfully tease me, and we'll have a back and forth. But because the ethnic makeup of America is rapidly shifting from white to Latino, the latter are seen as threats, and people treat them with suspicion because they are "challenging the traditional majority."

 

It's seen when people suggest changing the name of the Redskins -- giving rise to similar "get over it" responses. The term's racist, the Natives don't like it and never have, but because they're just a slim chunk of the population, petitioning for a name change is seen as a small group of people "needlessly bothering" the majority, who don't see or understand the implications of the term because it's not about them. 

 

And it's seen with the trans(+) population, because they are challenging conventional gender norms. The majority would be required to find ways to accommodate them, and that's a burden for the majority. Even if it's purely a burden of mentality. It means they have to retool their thinking. Make some room for a population they once ignored because it was infinitely smaller than the majority. 

 

 

 

The relative "invisibility" and "dismissal" of the trans population is also the leading reason for why they are the most abused members of the greater queer spectrum. They are more likely to be beaten. They are more likely to face discrimination. They are more likely to be the victims of a hate crime than the otherwise "conventional-gendered" gay or lesbian. And since we get enough flack as it is, that's saying quite a bit. People fear the unknown, and they hurt what they're afraid of.

 

Generally speaking, a trans (or whatever) individual will keep their complicated labels to themselves. Unless you ask them to describe the inner workings of their identity.

 

Otherwise, at the end of the day, the only thing they'll really ask of you is to use the pronoun they wish to be identified with. Which is not that great of a burden. But a lot of people act like it is.



#3 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:54 AM

I think OVER FIFTY different options a bit much. I think they could have narrowed it down a lot more to just the most common ones plus "other". But, I never liked Facebook anyways.

I do think a lot of people are basically coming up with their own genders willy-nilly. But there is a reason for it. With the strict gender roles that society has, some people are just not comfortable with identifying as male OR female, or feel that they are to some degree both, or neither. So we have people coming up with their own terms depending on what they think sounds best to describe themselves. I do believe that there should be some type of third gender integrated into society to help these people feel like they belong. Basically we need an "other" category. Though not called that, I guess it would have to be something nicer sounding but still an umbrella term. Maybe "non-cisgendered people"?

I was born male and identify as male, but I know that I sure would appreciate there being a third bathroom so that I don't have to have an existential crisis whenever I'm out wearing female clothing and I have to pee. (Or even if I'm wearing men's clothing and just having an exceptionally good hair day. People still tend to get confused)

I'd like to note that you said "we're encouraging this as a society" when that's simply not true. Non-cisgendered people still face a lot of discrimination, misunderstanding, fear, stigmas, and all that terrific stuff. Things like what Facebook has done are minor and uncommon.

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 14 February 2014 - 12:57 AM.


#4 Selena

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:02 AM

 

 (Or even if I'm wearing men's clothing and just having an exceptionally good hair day. People still tend to get confused)

 

 

 

 

.......XD

 

Let those luscious locks flow.



#5 JRPomazon

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:11 AM

Uh oh.

 

Yeah. Sorry about all this.

 

I'd like to note that you said "we're encouraging this as a society" when that's simply not true. Non-cisgendered people still face a lot of discrimination, misunderstanding, fear, stigmas, and all that terrific stuff. Things like what Facebook has done are minor and uncommon.

 

I think that I phrased it like that because I'm from Massachusetts. 

 

My state is where it seems a good chunk of advocates and organizations coming to defend Trans, Gay and Lesbian people are based in. People are mostly liberal in this state and are not at all scared to tell you as much. As far as I can remember, the social norm was to at least be somewhat of a progressive thinking, liberal voting citizen and being remotely conservative was looked poorly upon or seen as backwards. I'm not going to get specific with personal experiences but ultimately I learned it was better to sort of apathetically greet these kinds of things so long as no one got hurt in the meanwhile rather than try to argue an alternative opinion. (I figure there is some stereotype that I fit into since I'm a white male who doesn't care, "typical cis-male" as tumblr would phrase it) It wasn't until a year or two ago that I've felt comfortable actually talking about politics.

 

I can get behind the idea of a third gender though, or at least the introduction to a unisex bathroom in most places. I still feel as though I can't really get it all because of the small distinctions and general lack of unity from those different camps.

 

Otherwise, at the end of the day, the only thing they'll really ask of you is to use the pronoun they wish to be identified with. Which is not that great of a burden. But a lot of people act like it is.

 

I don't know if it's just people being difficult, because the other side of the argument could very well say that trans, pansexual, etc are the ones being difficult. It's really all relative. Don't like that I call myself a man/woman/whatever? Well that's just too bad. Don't like that I still call you by your biological gender or just feel qualified to call you an "it?" Well that's just too bad. I don't see this as one side seeking acceptance from another, it always seems to be people being outspoken and brash and saying "This is how things are now, get used to it."

 


Edited by JRPomazon, 14 February 2014 - 02:21 AM.


#6 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:33 AM

Uh oh.

 
Yeah. Sorry about all this.
 

I'd like to note that you said "we're encouraging this as a society" when that's simply not true. Non-cisgendered people still face a lot of discrimination, misunderstanding, fear, stigmas, and all that terrific stuff. Things like what Facebook has done are minor and uncommon.

 
I think that I phrased it like that because I'm from Massachusetts. 
 
My state is where it seems a good chunk of advocates and organizations coming to defend Trans, Gay and Lesbian people are based in. People are mostly liberal in this state and are not at all scared to tell you as much. As far as I can remember, the social norm was to at least be somewhat of a progressive thinking, liberal voting citizen and being remotely conservative was looked poorly upon or seen as backwards. I'm not going to get specific with personal experiences but ultimately I learned it was better to sort of apathetically greet these kinds of things so long as no one got hurt in the meanwhile rather than try to argue an alternative opinion. (I figure there is some stereotype that I fit into since I'm a white male who doesn't care, "typical cis-male" as tumblr would phrase it) It wasn't until a year or two ago that I've felt comfortable actually talking about politics.
 
I can get behind the idea of a third gender though, or at least the introduction to a unisex bathroom in most places. I still feel as though I can't really get it all because of the small distinctions and general lack of unity from those different camps.

Sometimes people just try too hard to be progressive, that they overshoot and end up going into a territory of unrealistic hipster nonsense. I think that may be what you're experiencing?

I don't know if it's just people being difficult, because the other side of the argument could very well say that trans, pansexual, etc are the ones being difficult. It's really all relative. Don't like that I call myself a man/woman/whatever? Well that's just too bad. Don't like that I still call you by your biological gender or just feel qualified to call you an "it?" Well that's just too bad. I don't see this as one side seeking acceptance from another, it always seems to be people being outspoken and brash and saying "This is how things are now, get used to it."

As with any cause, the radicals on either end are always the loudest, while the quiet majority are the reasonable people in between. In the end, everyone is just trying to find their way in the world like anyone else, and it's especially confusing when what you feel deep inside conflicts with what society strongly, STRONGLY expects of you based on what you were born with between your legs. All the reasonable people are asking for is a little respect and understanding of that.

#7 Doctor Pogo

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 03:18 AM

I like the idea of letting folks call themselves what they want.  It opens up the whole field of human variation, which is the thing that makes us awesome, and gives each person a way to put words to an identity that they themselves invented, that they own.  Just don't expect me to be able to identify your terms without prompting, or to somehow instinctually know the words you prefer.  Give me a heads-up and I'll be perfectly cool with your human self, whatever taxonomy you've decided to use for it.  Humans are cool.

 

And the more taxonomy there is, the more accurate the data you can choose to represent yourself with.  And the more accurate the government's file on you will be!



#8 Fin

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:38 AM

I don't know if it's just people being difficult, because the other side of the argument could very well say that trans, pansexual, etc are the ones being difficult. It's really all relative. Don't like that I call myself a man/woman/whatever? Well that's just too bad. Don't like that I still call you by your biological gender or just feel qualified to call you an "it?" Well that's just too bad. I don't see this as one side seeking acceptance from another, it always seems to be people being outspoken and brash and saying "This is how things are now, get used to it."


I hope you don't actually call anyone "it" without their permission. That's really dehumanising. You're talking about people who already don't identify with the gender label they've been given (just try to imagine how confusing it can be growing up like that), refusing to acknowledge their actually identity and then giving up and calling them a dehumanising term is something they have every right to be angry over.

I appreciate that it can feel more natural to prioritise someone's biology than their gender, but I like to think the fact that this is clearly such an issue for so many trans people shows that the important part of gender pronouns is how they relate to our personal identities, not our bodies. It's hard for cis people like you and me to see that, but we've lived our lives pretty much with a guarantee that most people will get our gender right. We have the luxury of never having to think about our gender identities.

#9 Jasi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:50 AM

Even some cis people who happen to have "feminine"/"masculine" features when they should have the other one can get really down on themselves if they are already insecure and then someone misidentifies them. In high school I dated someone briefly who was short and skinny and had long hair, and he was often called "Miss" by servers at restaurants and such and you could tell it bothered him. 

 

Don't you think it'd be about a hundred times more hurtful if you were trans and this were happening to you? Or even worse, if someone was outright consciously refusing to use the pronouns you prefer in an act of stubbornness or malice?



#10 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

I don't know if it's just people being difficult, because the other side of the argument could very well say that trans, pansexual, etc are the ones being difficult. It's really all relative. Don't like that I call myself a man/woman/whatever? Well that's just too bad. Don't like that I still call you by your biological gender or just feel qualified to call you an "it?" Well that's just too bad. I don't see this as one side seeking acceptance from another, it always seems to be people being outspoken and brash and saying "This is how things are now, get used to it."


I hope you don't actually call anyone "it" without their permission. That's really dehumanising. You're talking about people who already don't identify with the gender label they've been given (just try to imagine how confusing it can be growing up like that), refusing to acknowledge their actually identity and then giving up and calling them a dehumanising term is something they have every right to be angry over.

I appreciate that it can feel more natural to prioritise someone's biology than their gender, but I like to think the fact that this is clearly such an issue for so many trans people shows that the important part of gender pronouns is how they relate to our personal identities, not our bodies. It's hard for cis people like you and me to see that, but we've lived our lives pretty much with a guarantee that most people will get our gender right. We have the luxury of never having to think about our gender identities.

I don't think he meant that it was something he does. I think it was a hypothetical, with some unfortunately ambiguous wording.

But yes, calling someone an "it" is VERY offensive and hurtful. If you really have no idea what pronoun the person prefers, the singular "they" is acceptable. Some still don't like that one, but it's light-years better than "it".

#11 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:14 PM

Warning: Tangent incoming at T-60 seconds.

 

So I've never quite understood the concept of gender identity, as you are attempting to define your personality with physical characteristics. For example, I couldn't tell you what it means to be male, aside from a biological definition. The fact is, when you accept that they are pre-defined personality characteristics and traits for being male or female, then you are now apart of the bigger problem that is gender roles.

 

As I'm sure you are all aware, gender roles come from much more primitive societal and cultural standards which applied the labels of masculinity and femininity as being what is expected for being a man and a woman, respectively. Obviously, we are much more advanced today, and we know that this simply isn't the case, and that most, if not all, people exhibit a mixture of traditional masculine and feminine traits, thus disproving the notion that sex dictates personality. Unfortunately, these outdated and incorrect labels are still very much ingrained into modern society.

 

This is my issue with labels in general. If someone does not meet whatever labels are provided, it often can cause confusion from the individual and sometimes prejudice from those around them, especially when the labels provided are not accurate in the first place. So instead of trying to eliminate the real problem, our solution is to create more labels, which in turn creates more confusion. Why not let people define themselves, as opposed to trying to define themselves with pre-defined labels from others. Personally, I've found that trying to define oneself is a rather pointless endeavor, as you as an person are changing everyday, whether or not you realize it.

 

Perhaps I'm too much of an individualist when it comes to all of this.



#12 Jasi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:34 PM

Labels are a part of how we cognize things. Humans organize their world by putting things into boxes. For better or worse, I don't think it's going anywhere. I mean, are you saying you would not describe yourself as a man? But instead as an amalgam of interests and personality traits? Let's be real here. o_o

 

I think making some more boxes is more useful than trying to get rid of all of them. Everyone understands that a person isn't completely definable by the labels they choose to describe themselves. But labels are quite helpful for a quick way to start to understand someone. 



#13 JRPomazon

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:35 PM

 

 

I don't know if it's just people being difficult, because the other side of the argument could very well say that trans, pansexual, etc are the ones being difficult. It's really all relative. Don't like that I call myself a man/woman/whatever? Well that's just too bad. Don't like that I still call you by your biological gender or just feel qualified to call you an "it?" Well that's just too bad. I don't see this as one side seeking acceptance from another, it always seems to be people being outspoken and brash and saying "This is how things are now, get used to it."


I hope you don't actually call anyone "it" without their permission. That's really dehumanising. You're talking about people who already don't identify with the gender label they've been given (just try to imagine how confusing it can be growing up like that), refusing to acknowledge their actually identity and then giving up and calling them a dehumanising term is something they have every right to be angry over.

I appreciate that it can feel more natural to prioritise someone's biology than their gender, but I like to think the fact that this is clearly such an issue for so many trans people shows that the important part of gender pronouns is how they relate to our personal identities, not our bodies. It's hard for cis people like you and me to see that, but we've lived our lives pretty much with a guarantee that most people will get our gender right. We have the luxury of never having to think about our gender identities.

 

I don't think he meant that it was something he does. I think it was a hypothetical, with some unfortunately ambiguous wording.

But yes, calling someone an "it" is VERY offensive and hurtful. If you really have no idea what pronoun the person prefers, the singular "they" is acceptable. Some still don't like that one, but it's light-years better than "it".

 

Pretty much what Hana said, it was all in the realm of hypothetical responses. Sorry for the confusion.


Edited by JRPomazon, 14 February 2014 - 01:42 PM.


#14 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:40 PM

Warning: Tangent incoming at T-60 seconds.
 
So I've never quite understood the concept of gender identity, as you are attempting to define your personality with physical characteristics. For example, I couldn't tell you what it means to be male, aside from a biological definition. The fact is, when you accept that they are pre-defined personality characteristics and traits for being male or female, then you are now apart of the bigger problem that is gender roles.
 
As I'm sure you are all aware, gender roles come from much more primitive societal and cultural standards which applied the labels of masculinity and femininity as being what is expected for being a man and a woman, respectively. Obviously, we are much more advanced today, and we know that this simply isn't the case, and that most, if not all, people exhibit a mixture of traditional masculine and feminine traits, thus disproving the notion that sex dictates personality. Unfortunately, these outdated and incorrect labels are still very much ingrained into modern society.
 
This is my issue with labels in general. If someone does not meet whatever labels are provided, it often can cause confusion from the individual and sometimes prejudice from those around them, especially when the labels provided are not accurate in the first place. So instead of trying to eliminate the real problem, our solution is to create more labels, which in turn creates more confusion. Why not let people define themselves, as opposed to trying to define themselves with pre-defined labels from others. Personally, I've found that trying to define oneself is a rather pointless endeavor, as you as an person are changing everyday, whether or not you realize it.
 
Perhaps I'm too much of an individualist when it comes to all of this.

You kind of just explained the reasons why, although I questioned my gender identity in the past, I ultimately decided to identify as male. I don't let society decide for me what it's okay to do, say, think, or look like as a man. I do what I want. I think the taboo of it also happens to make it a little more fun. I don't get offended when people call me by female pronouns, or a singular they, and often I don't even correct them, even though it's not what I prefer, because I don't see any reason to see being seen a woman as a bad or insulting thing. We're all just people.

But when you do that, you have to accept that people will always see you as peculiar. Strange. A weirdo. I'm okay with that. But most transgendered people are not. They want to be accepted. They want to be a part of society. They don't want to be outcasts. They're not okay with just being a feminine man or a masculine woman. They feel strongly, deep inside, that the gender they were born as is just incorrect. As a child, I felt this way. It was extremely confusing. I eventually realized that just because I was, what people consider "feminine", didn't mean I'm not a man. Sometimes I wonder if transgendered people are actually just lost and have not realized the truth that I've realized yet. But that can't be the case. I felt that way for a few years as a kid, but these people feel that way their whole lives. It isn't something that goes away.

#15 Selena

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

T-Bro: That is a perfectly sensible outlook on gender, one which I generally share (which is why I don't label myself unless it's unavoidable). I've always been secure in my female-ness. Even though so many people around me have told me what a "bad woman" I am for not being stereotypically girly. Throughout childhood and even now as an adult. 

 

Jasi's right, though. Humans have a need to label and categorize things. Both in regards to labeling ourselves -- which is largely where all the many labels for the queer subgenres came from -- and our need to categorize others. Despite how dumb a lot of people are, humans are inherently logic-oriented creatures who like things to be neat and tidy and organized. 

 

It has its ups and downs.

 

 

 

 

 

Biological gender is a clear-cut thing unless you're legitimately intersex (or transitioning). Gender identity is....

 

 

Well, think of genders as "clans."

 

It happens at every social function you go to. The women often flock together and discuss womanly things in their own little sovereign realm. Women have their own "language," in a way. Conversations between women flow in certain, unique rhythm. The Woman Clan has their own energy, their own customs, their own rules of social engagement. 

 

The same is true of Clan Man. Men have their preferred ways of interacting with the world around them -- their own social rhythms. They also flock together at social gatherings to discuss manly things in manly ways. They've got their own customs, too. Very distinct from the womenfolk. 

 

You may frequently interact and even live with people of the opposing clan -- but you're most comfortable with your own. Dealing with the other one means you have to translate and filter what you say. It can be a struggle to figure out how the other clan operates. You know you're not part of it, even if you fancy its members.

 

That's gender identity. This is me. This is my clan. This is where I feel I belong.

 

(The "Third Gender" clan is also a thing, as they feel uncomfortable with both conventional ones. Like, even though I'm comfortable with being a woman and wouldn't identify myself otherwise, I've never felt 100% comfortable with men or women as a group.)

 

 

 

 

Sometimes you are born with the bits-and-pieces of one gender. But you never fit into the clan. You never understand them. You never feel welcome. You never feel like you belong, and on many occasions the other members of that clan won't even want you there with them. 

 

But you feel at home with the other group. You understand how they function. You fit seamlessly into their society. You feel like you belong, and you feel like you just "get it" there.

 

That sensation is generally what makes the trans population do their thing.

 

This goes beyond just being a tomboy or a sensitive man. It's a big, highly pronounced sensation. Most tomboys are still firmly attached to Clan Woman. They just commute there instead of live on campus.

 

 

 

 

So you can call them by their biological gender all you want -- they'll never see themselves as such. But it does send a clear message that you don't really care about who they are as a person. As a not-entirely-similar comparison..... it's like if I analyzed all of your religious beliefs and told you, from my own fact-based viewpoint, what religious denomination you're a part of. Based on just cold facts. Because maybe you were raised Lutheran but, when all of your specific views on spirituality are analyzed, you actually belong with the Catholics.

 

Except that's not the one you identify with. It's not the one you were raised in. It's not one you even feel comfortable in. That's not where you go to church, and you're perfectly comfortable where you are -- someone else's factual analysis be damned. And when you protest, I tell you "NO, YOU ARE THIS, YOU ARE WRONG. BECAUSE I SAY SO, I HAVE FACTS."

 

 

 

Basically, nobody ever likes it when someone else arrogantly tells them what they are or what they believe in. So just let 'em do their thing.



#16 Mark

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:12 PM

Labels are a part of how we cognize things. Humans organize their world by putting things into boxes. For better or worse, I don't think it's going anywhere. I mean, are you saying you would not describe yourself as a man? But instead as an amalgam of interests and personality traits? Let's be real here. o_o

 

I think making some more boxes is more useful than trying to get rid of all of them. Everyone understands that a person isn't completely definable by the labels they choose to describe themselves. But labels are quite helpful for a quick way to start to understand someone. 

 

I agree.

 

It took me a while to realize it, but I believe that gender identity is actually rather complex and very serious.

for instance: the belief of my own masculinity is hardly just a question as to whether or not I have a penis; there is a lot associated with and included within a persons sexual identity.

While a persons sense of sexual identity might cover a wide field, having a few boxes proves useful - for identification at least.

and in that vein - having over 50 boxes is probably a little silly.



#17 Steel Samurai

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:44 PM

So I know I'm pretty much waking Godzilla with a topic like this and I'm expecting to get some alienation by at least some of you. But here we go.

 

Facebook announced that they have now over fifty different options for genders that people can go place in their profile.

http://www.cnn.com/2...-gender-custom/

 

I feel this is the first sign of a very different direction in what we call gender. Sure, people have been calling themselves whatever for ages now, but it was always something that wasn't so largely focused on until recently with stories of transgender people asking for their own bathroom and etc. (http://usnews.nbcnew...ts-rights-court)

I can understand that in this day in age, there are folks who are guys, folks who are girls, folks who are guys but identify as girls, folks who were girls but had a surgery and are now anatomically built like guys, etc. People can be whoever they want to be. But I feel that the gender issue, topic, whatever you call it, it's just gone a little out of hand. Now it feels that categories have gone and splintered off into a multitude of different distinctions and options. It honestly feels to me like a science fiction show or a comic book series with multiple universes and feels just as realistic. And it feels as though there is a strong presence in society that is pampering people with this idea that they are whoever they want to be and we're even encouraging people to go the lengths of creating their own place in the gender spectrum to modifying their own bodies to meet with these mentalities.

 

Now I'm someone who was raised with a more traditional Christian mindset but you wouldn't be seeing me protesting a gay wedding or burning down a synagogue. But there comes a point where I think people have confused their preferences for their actual genetics and I can't help but wonder why we're encouraging this as a society? Because it doesn't hurt anyone? Because people should be able to express themselves? Well those are all nice things and I'm a big fan of both of them. But still, should things be this complicated? Should social norms in any place in the world be altered, radically or otherwise, so that a minority of people can feel more acclimated to society? And yes, that very question could be applied to race or religion or whatever, but I don't think gender should be elevated to the same place as these things because at the core, gender is a surprisingly simple thing that has somehow become much much more difficult than it has to be.

 

I suppose at the heart of all this, I'm just someone who prefers simple resolutions to these types of things and the idea of making things more complicated than they have to be such seems counter-intuitive.

 

 

I haven't the time to read this entire thread, but I'm actually pretty fucking passionate about this topic so I couldn't let this go by without a comment.

 

(This is not directed just at you, Jordan)

 

This is fucking America.

 

People should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

 

If you want to call yourself a dude when you have female genitalia, vice versa or anything else, you should be allowed to do so without ANY FUCKING CONSEQUENCE. And people should respect that decision.

 

No one chooses to be trans, just like no one chooses to be gay or straight or black or white. Trans kids have much higher rates of suicide and homelessness than average because of the discrimination and confusion they face on a day to day basis. Anything the dominant culture/society/government can do to alleviate that depression is a good thing. 

 

If something doesn't fit into your taxonomy or lexicon of the world, it doesn't mean that thing is wrong, it means your taxonomy is too narrow.

 

Broaden your mind. Seek to rise above your traditions and upbringing whenever possible, recognizing their strengths and weaknesses.

 

PS: As far as the practical aspects of bathrooms go, I am in favor of just making all bathrooms unisex. Works fine in Europe.



#18 deep

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:06 AM

I'm all for Facebook's decision, as an American who is...

 

mxa6vzn.png

Gender Variant, Neutrois, and Two-spirited, I value the right to express myself.

 

(Had to google Neutrois, as that was new to me. Apparently it is barely a thing, and hasn't been pinned down in a useful way. If anything, the only thing Facebook did wrong here was give about 25 options too many. But where the development in gender identity currently is, it's to be expected. Because the trans movement is still young and has been very splintered, we still don't have a more unified nomenclature for stuff that is generally the same thing. I'm sure this will be pared down in time.)



#19 Egann

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:57 AM

The real problem with gender issues: most of the noise-makers in this issue don't really know what they want, either.

 

I mean, I'd love to cater to someone else's needs, but I kinda need to know what those needs are.

 

We really have taken the gender issue too far, though. The entire point of eliminating this word "sex" from the discussion was because sex is something you physically possess because it's also what you have sex with. Sex was about what's downstairs, while gender is about what's upstairs. And say what you will about the system, it was certainly simple enough. We're all born male or female, barring the one in ten million exception. Heck, most transsexuals who have been surgically altered still belong to one or the other, even if their alignment has flipped.

 

The real problem is basically about gender expectations, anyway, as most of these labels are about conveying how a person will probably act. And, ironically, the more we focus on the intangibles of gender, the worse this becomes because we expect the label to be more accurate.

 

I'm sure most of you can see where I'm going with this. Gender expectations and sex are two completely different things. Heck, the entire point of this post is that sex and gender are completely different things.

 

The best solution is clearly to weaken gender expectations, but because gender was grafted over sex, we're stuck with labels. Sex worked great with labels. Gender does not because labels reinforce expectations. Like I said, the people making noise didn't understand what they wanted, either, which is a real shame because it's making a mess for everybody. I suppose I shouldn't be too angry because I have the benefit of hindsight and all that.

 

We really do need to go back to calling sex labels sex labels, though. Gender labels don't do a good job because that's not what they were designed to do, and insisting on using them will just make matters worse.



#20 Jasi

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:48 PM

The real problem with gender issues: most of the noise-makers in this issue don't really know what they want, either.

 

I mean, I'd love to cater to someone else's needs, but I kinda need to know what those needs are.

 

What do you even mean by this? I can't really imagine, except if you're referring to people who are still going through a questioning period, in which case it might be nicer to show them some compassion and understanding rather than calling it a "problem"...



#21 Twinrova

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

"Noise-makers". Wow.



#22 JRPomazon

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:14 PM

 

The real problem with gender issues: most of the noise-makers in this issue don't really know what they want, either.

 

I mean, I'd love to cater to someone else's needs, but I kinda need to know what those needs are.

 

What do you even mean by this? I can't really imagine, except if you're referring to people who are still going through a questioning period, in which case it might be nicer to show them some compassion and understanding rather than calling it a "problem"...

 

 

Isn't the fact that they question some fundamental truths about who they are as people a problem in itself? I identify as a male, I physically happen to be one too. This is a open-closed situation here and after reading some posts here on the subject I'm quite grateful for that because as Fin said earlier, this is a luxury. If I had to question every day who I was, what I related to, where I belonged on the spectrum of sexes and genders, I would definitely call that a problem because in some ways I would be having a identity crisis. So since you can't find the category you feel you belong to, you make your own. But I feel that's were the divisions come in, all of the sudden there is boy, girl, gay, straight and a whole rainbow of variants in between. It's obviously a problem for them and because of the fuzzy lines and lack of distinctions it makes it harder for people to really understand. I mean, I started this post a few days ago because I didn't understand and I started a dialogue to better get a grip on what I didn't understand.

 

Obviously, showing compassion as a response is generally seen as a good option. Being kind doesn't hurt anyone. But sometimes compassion isn't the only component to fixing a problem. What Egann is saying is that in order to actually make the situation better, people on both sides need to know what to do. Some people work better when they are told what to do, rather than to wade through all the options without picking a single one. I'm not insisting anyone with a gender identity issue of any kind should just let someone else to define him or her. As a society, global, national or otherwise, we have options to address the confusion of people who don't know who they are and people who don't understand the initial confusion. We either create a thousand new categories tailor-made for each individual or just destroy the very notion of gender and let people be people. Maybe even something in the middle for all we know. So long as things are made a lot less complicated, then I'll personally be happy.

 

"Noise-makers". Wow.

 

 

 

For crying out loud Rova, what on earth does this comment do to better the damn conversation? You've read his point, please tell me you're counter-point isn't to belittle him because he has an alternate opinion


Edited by JRPomazon, 15 February 2014 - 11:18 PM.


#23 Selena

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:14 AM

 

 So long as things are made a lot less complicated, then I'll personally be happy.

 

 

If you want it to be simple, then it frankly isn't going to happen.

 

Gender has never been simple. 50 terms on facebook may be overkill, but there have been thousands of labels for "third gender" people throughout the course of human history, from the dawn of civilization to Roman times to the modern day. Across all cultures. Gender identity is an infinitely complex issue in which your place in society is determined by a combination of both your physical sex and the gender roles you're accustomed to (which vary wildly by culture and time period). 

 

There is no simple answer because, despite what some may say, gender roles and gender identity have never been uniform throughout human civilization.

 

The real problem with gender issues: most of the noise-makers in this issue don't really know what they want, either.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the fact that they question some fundamental truths about who they are as people a problem in itself?

 

 

Consider context.

 

Once upon a time, third gender roles were normal to most of the world's ancient cultures (or even a little more recently than "ancient," depending on geography). And within each culture, they had their own unique function in society. Their own purpose. They had their own customs. There were people to guide them. There was structure.

 

And then there wasn't. When those old cultures were taken over, these people were ostracized and spat upon. They were -- and still are -- assaulted. The social frameworks of the third gender broke down and collapsed. To the point where it was never talked about. Generations grew up without any knowledge of a third gender, much less what functions they once served those old societies. Any culture they once had was gone.

 

They all lived in secret. Or attempted to conform. Because failure to do so meant severe punishment. Only recently have these people felt comfortable enough to embrace that side of themselves. But the third gender framework was destroyed. It's like people coming back to a land that's been utterly annihilated. They question themselves and their place because they are building things back from nothing. Of course they are confused. This was a subject that was simply not talked about until the last few decades. Nobody knows what they're doing. There are no mentors, no guides, no solid foundation like the "conventional" genders have. All while being told that they are wrong, or that they are freaks.

 

Of course they don't know what they want. They are going to question. For a long time. Until that place for them is rebuilt. It's not a dilemma that can be resolved right away. Especially not in order to make conventional society happy. It takes time to build structures.

 

 

 

 

Would it be nice to do away with gender expectations and labeling? Yeah. It would. But people like to categorize. Like to have a known place in society -- a role. Part of being social creatures. It's hard to override that.



#24 Jasi

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

Obviously, showing compassion as a response is generally seen as a good option. Being kind doesn't hurt anyone. But sometimes compassion isn't the only component to fixing a problem. What Egann is saying is that in order to actually make the situation better, people on both sides need to know what to do. Some people work better when they are told what to do, rather than to wade through all the options without picking a single one. I'm not insisting anyone with a gender identity issue of any kind should just let someone else to define him or her. As a society, global, national or otherwise, we have options to address the confusion of people who don't know who they are and people who don't understand the initial confusion. We either create a thousand new categories tailor-made for each individual or just destroy the very notion of gender and let people be people. Maybe even something in the middle for all we know. So long as things are made a lot less complicated, then I'll personally be happy.

 

I guess I don't see why it's any problem of mine if someone else decides that they'd like to change their gender and wants me to refer to them with male pronouns. It really doesn't impact me much at all.

 

If someone is in a questioning period, then they simply need time to work it out and I should cut them some slack. And I still don't see how that makes it a problem of mine. Why do I need to do any fixing or problem-solving for someone else trying to figure out their gender identity? 

 

edit: and if you're confused, just ask, as you have done. Most people would rather you ask and take the initiative to get it right rather than throw up your hands and give up.


Edited by Jasi, 16 February 2014 - 01:49 PM.


#25 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:39 PM

Labels are a part of how we cognize things. Humans organize their world by putting things into boxes. For better or worse, I don't think it's going anywhere. I mean, are you saying you would not describe yourself as a man? But instead as an amalgam of interests and personality traits? Let's be real here. o_o

 

I think making some more boxes is more useful than trying to get rid of all of them. Everyone understands that a person isn't completely definable by the labels they choose to describe themselves. But labels are quite helpful for a quick way to start to understand someone. 

 

Perhaps I went a bit overboard with my distaste of labels. While I obviously don't care for them, I do recognize their usefulness and necessity. When I said eliminate the real problem, I didn't mean to do away with all labels, only the ones we know are wrong, in this case masculinity and femininity. It's illogical to continue to build upon what is already known to be a flawed foundation. If we know that exhibiting masculine or feminine traits does not make anymore more or less of a man or woman, then why do we continue to use said labels as such?

 

Obviously I know that those ideas are far too ingrained into society to try and actually remove them, I'm simply speaking hypothetically with the problem at hand.

 

And to answer your question, yes, I would define myself as such. Being male has no more effect on my personality than having blonde hair or blue eyes, it is merely a physical trait and nothing more.

 

You kind of just explained the reasons why, although I questioned my gender identity in the past, I ultimately decided to identify as male. I don't let society decide for me what it's okay to do, say, think, or look like as a man. I do what I want. I think the taboo of it also happens to make it a little more fun. I don't get offended when people call me by female pronouns, or a singular they, and often I don't even correct them, even though it's not what I prefer, because I don't see any reason to see being seen a woman as a bad or insulting thing. We're all just people.


But when you do that, you have to accept that people will always see you as peculiar. Strange. A weirdo. I'm okay with that. But most transgendered people are not. They want to be accepted. They want to be a part of society. They don't want to be outcasts. They're not okay with just being a feminine man or a masculine woman. They feel strongly, deep inside, that the gender they were born as is just incorrect. As a child, I felt this way. It was extremely confusing. I eventually realized that just because I was, what people consider "feminine", didn't mean I'm not a man. Sometimes I wonder if transgendered people are actually just lost and have not realized the truth that I've realized yet. But that can't be the case. I felt that way for a few years as a kid, but these people feel that way their whole lives. It isn't something that goes away.

 

 

Unfortunately, we as a people seem to have a severe issue with change and new ideas, as they're often demonized for being different. I wish I had an answer for those people, aside from what has already been said. From personal experience, I've found that once you stop caring about the expectations of others and the desire to be accepted by anyone other than yourself, you're pretty much free to do whatever you want. I'm glad to see that you seem to realize this as well.

 

T-Bro: That is a perfectly sensible outlook on gender, one which I generally share (which is why I don't label myself unless it's unavoidable). I've always been secure in my female-ness. Even though so many people around me have told me what a "bad woman" I am for not being stereotypically girly. Throughout childhood and even now as an adult. 

 

Jasi's right, though. Humans have a need to label and categorize things. Both in regards to labeling ourselves -- which is largely where all the many labels for the queer subgenres came from -- and our need to categorize others. Despite how dumb a lot of people are, humans are inherently logic-oriented creatures who like things to be neat and tidy and organized. 

 

It has its ups and downs.

 

 

 

 

 

Biological gender is a clear-cut thing unless you're legitimately intersex (or transitioning). Gender identity is....

 

 

Well, think of genders as "clans."

 

It happens at every social function you go to. The women often flock together and discuss womanly things in their own little sovereign realm. Women have their own "language," in a way. Conversations between women flow in certain, unique rhythm. The Woman Clan has their own energy, their own customs, their own rules of social engagement. 

 

The same is true of Clan Man. Men have their preferred ways of interacting with the world around them -- their own social rhythms. They also flock together at social gatherings to discuss manly things in manly ways. They've got their own customs, too. Very distinct from the womenfolk. 

 

You may frequently interact and even live with people of the opposing clan -- but you're most comfortable with your own. Dealing with the other one means you have to translate and filter what you say. It can be a struggle to figure out how the other clan operates. You know you're not part of it, even if you fancy its members.

 

That's gender identity. This is me. This is my clan. This is where I feel I belong.

 

(The "Third Gender" clan is also a thing, as they feel uncomfortable with both conventional ones. Like, even though I'm comfortable with being a woman and wouldn't identify myself otherwise, I've never felt 100% comfortable with men or women as a group.)

 

 

 

 

Sometimes you are born with the bits-and-pieces of one gender. But you never fit into the clan. You never understand them. You never feel welcome. You never feel like you belong, and on many occasions the other members of that clan won't even want you there with them. 

 

But you feel at home with the other group. You understand how they function. You fit seamlessly into their society. You feel like you belong, and you feel like you just "get it" there.

 

That sensation is generally what makes the trans population do their thing.

 

This goes beyond just being a tomboy or a sensitive man. It's a big, highly pronounced sensation. Most tomboys are still firmly attached to Clan Woman. They just commute there instead of live on campus.

 

 

 

 

So you can call them by their biological gender all you want -- they'll never see themselves as such. But it does send a clear message that you don't really care about who they are as a person. As a not-entirely-similar comparison..... it's like if I analyzed all of your religious beliefs and told you, from my own fact-based viewpoint, what religious denomination you're a part of. Based on just cold facts. Because maybe you were raised Lutheran but, when all of your specific views on spirituality are analyzed, you actually belong with the Catholics.

 

Except that's not the one you identify with. It's not the one you were raised in. It's not one you even feel comfortable in. That's not where you go to church, and you're perfectly comfortable where you are -- someone else's factual analysis be damned. And when you protest, I tell you "NO, YOU ARE THIS, YOU ARE WRONG. BECAUSE I SAY SO, I HAVE FACTS."

 

 

 

Basically, nobody ever likes it when someone else arrogantly tells them what they are or what they believe in. So just let 'em do their thing.

 

That's an interesting way to put it. It could also explain why I've never been able to understand the concept, as I am pretty much entirely introverted, so I have trouble understanding things that are so socially involved. But I find it interesting, as you have pretty much described how I've always felt around people. Although, I've never been able to relate well with others in the form of a group, as mentioned above, even on a personal level, "guy-talk" is something I've never been able to do, as it's always about thing I have zero interest in, such as sports, cars, guns, booze, sex, etc. I suppose the difference here is, I've never assumed that not liking or doing "manly" things makes me any less of a man, as I clearly am one, but rather I just have different interests than most, which is okay too.

 

I guess I've just never seen gender as a relatable subject, as I've always seen it as you are simply one or the other, or sometimes in the middle or transitioning, and after that you just have what traits and characteristics that make you who you are, which are independent of your gender. I could very well be wrong, but this is just how I've always seen it.

 

And as for your last point, I actually don't care what people prefer to be called, even if I don't quite understand their reasons for it. It's really none of my business anyways, so just calling them by what they prefer is simply common courtesy.



#26 Egann

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

 

The real problem with gender issues: most of the noise-makers in this issue don't really know what they want, either.

 

I mean, I'd love to cater to someone else's needs, but I kinda need to know what those needs are.

 

What do you even mean by this? I can't really imagine, except if you're referring to people who are still going through a questioning period, in which case it might be nicer to show them some compassion and understanding rather than calling it a "problem"...

 

I'm not talking about people going through a questioning period. I'm talking about people in the LBGT community not knowing how they want people outside that community to act. If someone else needs me to change the way I live my life, I'm happy to oblige, but I need to know what the problem is and, more to the point, what I should do to do to fix it.

 

56 options on facebook belies the problem: broader society has no clue how to deal with these issues, so even people who want to help just wind up throwing things at the wall hoping something helpful sticks. Worse, because there's no consensus within the LBGT community, and because LBGT is such a diverse umbrella term, no such plan exists anywhere.

 

EDIT: Or to be more correct, the individual pieces don't come to form a cohesive hole very well.  


Edited by Egann, 16 February 2014 - 11:59 PM.


#27 Mark

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:09 AM

So I've never quite understood the concept of gender identity, as you are attempting to define your personality with physical characteristics. For example, I couldn't tell you what it means to be male, aside from a biological definition. The fact is, when you accept that they are pre-defined personality characteristics and traits for being male or female, then you are now apart of the bigger problem that is gender roles.

 

As I'm sure you are all aware, gender roles come from much more primitive societal and cultural standards which applied the labels of masculinity and femininity as being what is expected for being a man and a woman, respectively. Obviously, we are much more advanced today, and we know that this simply isn't the case, and that most, if not all, people exhibit a mixture of traditional masculine and feminine traits, thus disproving the notion that sex dictates personality. Unfortunately, these outdated and incorrect labels are still very much ingrained into modern society.

 

....

 

Perhaps I'm too much of an individualist when it comes to all of this.

 

And to answer your question, yes, I would define myself as such. Being male has no more effect on my personality than having blonde hair or blue eyes, it is merely a physical trait and nothing more.

 

 

So quick point....

I think these kind of statements are probably a little strong.

 

 

first:

"As I'm sure you are all aware, .... primitive societal and cultural standards  ..... Obviously, we are much more advanced today,"

 

calling certain societies 'primitive' and 'advanced' is pretty ... cringe... especially when prefaced by 'Obviously'.

 

 

 

second:

 

Saying things along the lines of: "Being male has no more effect on my personality than having blonde hair or blue eyes" and "thus disproving the notion that sex dictates personality" - I believe this kind of notion runs risk of defying mainstream science and actual fact.

To state that a person's having a Y chromosome plays NO part in defining, disposing, or shaping a person's personality is a BIG statement.

 

from a purely biological perspective - I understand that there are a fair lot of animals which exhibit significant differences in behavior with sex - behaviors not obviously due to cultural influence.

 

I am currently reading Human evolutionary psychology: (details: http://press.princet...itles/7315.html)

 

"it seems that women are universally much more likely to take on responsibility for maintaining relationships both with kin and with the extended family as a whole. This seems to be as true of both modern post-industraial societies (cite,cite,cite...) as of hunter-gatherers (cite..).

The most likely explanation for this is that a kin-bias in willingness to give help, support, and advise may be more important for successful reproduction for women than it is for men, for whom alliance formation is much more a matter of the moment. However at present, we know too little about the details of this aspect of human behavior to be able to offer anything more than a speculative answer"


Edited by Mark, 18 February 2014 - 05:47 AM.


#28 SOAP

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:45 AM

*stumbles in lackadaisically, tripping over stuff and causing a huge commotion.*

 

Who put that baby there!

 

Anyways, everyone's favorite cleaning compound here! Just dropping by to add my two cents.

 

Firstly, I don't think it's all that complicated recognizing a third, or even a fourth, or sixth gender. As... Selena (I'm so used to referring to her as Jessica but whatever) stated, ancient cultures had no problems with incorporating divergent sexual expressions within their societal norms. Heck Native Americans were notorious for having rather gender roles for men and women but even tehy still recognized that where individuals who don't fall into male or female categories but still held a valuable place in their culture. Hence they were called "Two-Spirits" because they were thought to have both male and female souls within them. Naturally they were shamans and medicine folk because they acted as a bridge to gap the differences between men and women. I don't know if these individuals were necessarily homosexual but the "Two-Spirit" term seems to be something modern native american LGBTQ community has made their own. And I think it's rather cool, personally.

 

Which brings me to my next point: Gender and Sexuality, two very different things, expressed in many different ways. Not every gay man thinks they're a woman trapped in a man's body and not every transgendered woman wants to have sex with women. Some gay men see themselves as men first and might have an aversion anything taht's even slightly feminine. Some straight men feel genuinely more comfortable in women's clothing without it being some weird fetish or something they did on a dare. There are nuances. Which might explain why the LGBTQ community, despite being so small of a minority, is so hard splintered as a group.

 

I've met a man at a bar who I thought was really hot and midway through the conversation he revealed to me he was born a woman. My first instinct was that I assumed he would not be interested in talking to me when there's plenty of attractive lesbians who he much rather talk to. He was taken a back by my assumption and told me that he was actually only interested in men, something I couldn't wrap my head around at the time because I was young and ignorant and he quickly excused himself and found another man to talk to. Oh well, it was a learning experience.

 

Point being, there's not always a clear cut label for every reality there is. We're all just so different, but at the same time those differences don't make us less valuable to each other. By that same token, I think the reason why we're so obsessed with labels, not just for others but for ourselves, is that we want to belong. We want to feel valued. Yes that gets kinda hard when you start having way too many labels out there that it all becomes pointless. And yes, sometimes it's easier to just go by the strictly male/female dichotomy just because it's simpler, even if it doesn't necessarily cover everyone. I think compromise and understanding, beyond the labels, can make it so everyone feels like they have their place in society without things getting too crazy.

 

That said, I don't really understand the term 'cisgender.' If you feel like you strongly identify with the gender you're born with, why not just stick with it? Why make up a new term for it? I guess it's about the degree of which you feel strongly about your gender. Male/Female would be the default geners you're born with. Transgenders go in the direction of feeling like their brains don't match their bodies where as cisgendereds feel like everything's perfectly insync as things are.

 

In that case I wonder what the term is for someone who feels like gender is something extremely fluid for them and feel at home both as a man or a woman with no real issues whatsoever. I think I would feel like I fall into such a group. I feel like I identify with women a lot, especially in regards to politics, children, and community. Things women traditionally care more about I feel strongly about as well. And when men complain about stupid things like why women complain about there not being enough nice guys but reject every nice guy they come across, I have to resist the strong urge to punch them in the neck for feeling their "kindness" entitles them to free sex. But I don't feel like I'm trapped in a body that does not belong to me. I feel comfortable as a man and at the end of the day I still think like other men do, straight, gay, or otherwise. I also feel like I could be just as happy if I were to change into a woman. Either way would be a total non issue for me as I feel like what makes me "me" goes beyond gender. I would still be me regardless of what was between my legs (besides the differences in biology and hormones of course). I only identify as male because that's how I was born, just as was born gay and feel no shame about either one of those aspects of myself. And I don't necessarily feel like I need to become more like a woman to understand how they feel and be their ally. So... I guess I'm just human. That's the only label I need for myself. :)



#29 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:35 AM

That said, I don't really understand the term 'cisgender.' If you feel like you strongly identify with the gender you're born with, why not just stick with it? Why make up a new term for it? I guess it's about the degree of which you feel strongly about your gender. Male/Female would be the default geners you're born with. Transgenders go in the direction of feeling like their brains don't match their bodies where as cisgendereds feel like everything's perfectly insync as things are.

"Cisgender" is just a term used when talking about people who were born as the gender they identify as. It's just easier than saying "man who was born as a man" or "woman who was born as a woman" every time you need to clarify it in a discussion.
 

In that case I wonder what the term is for someone who feels like gender is something extremely fluid

There is actually. It's called genderfluid. ;)


I just remembered this helpful thing:
nn9.png

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 18 February 2014 - 07:48 AM.


#30 SOAP

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:46 PM

Hmmm, Genderfluid? I think I like that.

 

Also I had another notion. I think another reason people seem to crave labels as labels normalizes their experiences and it's a comfort to know there's others out there who had similar enough experience that they can put a name on it.






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