I figure this is a good starter topic, for religion. We've got an atheist, a commie, and a religious fanatic (me), so naturally I've got to have my token religion topic.
Alak, I'm sure you're quite capable of arguing against me, though everyone else is free to join in on whichever side you want.
And if this topic dies...I'll be pissed.
Jesus Is The Messiah
Started by
arunma
, Sep 14 2004 03:03 PM
79 replies to this topic
#1
arunma
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:03 PM
#2
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:07 PM
I don't really see how an atheist would argue the idea. In order for you to decide WHO the messiah is, don't you have to first believe that there IS a messiah? o.o
#3
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:08 PM
Not really. The Old Testament prophecies point to Jesus as the Messiah, but obviously, Jews don't believe this. So there is clearly a controversy as to what the prophecies say. The debate is probably meaningless to an atheist, but one could very well argue either side of this topic.
#4
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:48 PM
No they don't. They point to the heir of David as the ruler of Israel at the time of the Messiah.
And there's not god. I'm adding this on to the end of all my posts in entirely religious discussions so there's no confution. Don't discuss it, please, we have enough digression as it is.
And there's not god. I'm adding this on to the end of all my posts in entirely religious discussions so there's no confution. Don't discuss it, please, we have enough digression as it is.
#5
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:00 PM
Well, for one, the Messiah was supposed to have red hair. He was also supposed to reunite all the lost tribes of the Israelites.
Jesus did not reunite the lost Israelite tribes. I guess that's why he said he'd come back, though, right? I mean, he didn't complete all the tasks he was supposed to do as Messiah and frankly, I'm not even sure whether he did a good enough job of bringing about peace into the world.
I mean look at it!
Although I guess that's more our fault rather than his. He gave us the basic structures (and his teachings sound suspiciously like the ones of Buddha, minus all the meditation although I guess you could count prayer as meditation) for peace and quite a number of us just didn't follow those instructions of his.
I'd resurrect all the other points I made about Jesus from my last post concerning him, but I don't think I want to go into that again.
I wonder what would happen if we were able to provide 100% proof that Jesus was not the Messiah. Would it be a good idea to destroy a religion as powerful as Christianity?
Jesus did not reunite the lost Israelite tribes. I guess that's why he said he'd come back, though, right? I mean, he didn't complete all the tasks he was supposed to do as Messiah and frankly, I'm not even sure whether he did a good enough job of bringing about peace into the world.
I mean look at it!
Although I guess that's more our fault rather than his. He gave us the basic structures (and his teachings sound suspiciously like the ones of Buddha, minus all the meditation although I guess you could count prayer as meditation) for peace and quite a number of us just didn't follow those instructions of his.
I'd resurrect all the other points I made about Jesus from my last post concerning him, but I don't think I want to go into that again.
I wonder what would happen if we were able to provide 100% proof that Jesus was not the Messiah. Would it be a good idea to destroy a religion as powerful as Christianity?
#6
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:02 PM
OK Alak, let's get into some specifics. Perhaps one of the most important Old Testament/Tanakh prophecies is Isaiah 53. If this isn't referring to Jesus, who is it referring to?Originally posted by arunma@Sep 14 2004, 03:08 PM
Not really. The Old Testament prophecies point to Jesus as the Messiah, but obviously, Jews don't believe this. So there is clearly a controversy as to what the prophecies say. The debate is probably meaningless to an atheist, but one could very well argue either side of this topic.
#7
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:05 PM
Uh, which is that, Arun? I don't know s**t by verse...
#8
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:05 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Wolf+-->
QUOTE(Wolf)
Well, for one, the Messiah was supposed to have red hair. He was also supposed to reunite all the lost tribes of the Israelites.[/b][/quote]
One important point for everyone to remember is that there will be a second coming. Christians admit that Jesus didn't fulfill every prophecy, nor was he supposed to. Jews used to believe in two Messiahs, a suffering servant, described in Isaiah, and a conquering king described in Zechariah. Instead, God chose to use one Messiah twice. When Jesus returns, he will come as the Conquering King, and he will unite the twelve tribes of Israel. He'll also do a lot of other things that the Messiah was prophesied to do.
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Not that i'm holding supermarket tabloids as credible sources, but at the time I thought this was the general belief of all christians.
I was also 11 years old at the time.
#15
That won't be annoying, offensive, insulting, condescending, or tempting to refute at all. I'm glad you're doing it. Oh yeah, and it sets a great example, too.
And Flint, um, I don't know how to break it to you, but you were wrong on thinking it was the general belief of Christians. Revalations clearly states that the second coming, or the beginning of the end times, depending on which you interperet to come first, will come at an unpredictable time.
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I wasn't trying to be mod-like. My post was in jest...at least 90%. The crude English thing was just poking fun...although I did wish you guys would get the stories straight.
Frankly, I don't care about the thread staying on topic.
I care about the people who care about the thread staying on topic.
#26
Arunma, I believe that in your attempt to prove that Jesus was/is the Messiah, you proved that he had children.
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One important point for everyone to remember is that there will be a second coming. Christians admit that Jesus didn't fulfill every prophecy, nor was he supposed to. Jews used to believe in two Messiahs, a suffering servant, described in Isaiah, and a conquering king described in Zechariah. Instead, God chose to use one Messiah twice. When Jesus returns, he will come as the Conquering King, and he will unite the twelve tribes of Israel. He'll also do a lot of other things that the Messiah was prophesied to do.
#9
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:07 PM
Here you go Alak. Isaiah 53, the whole thing! Note that this is the NIV, Christian translation. I've looked at a Jewish translation though, and it's essentially the same. Also I left the verse numbers in for easy reference.
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
#10
Alakhriveion
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:10 PM
But that's a prophet, not a messiah. The Moshiach carries a King, not a messiah. God doesn't have a son, he doesn't have a human body, he's far too abstract for that.
#11
arunma
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:25 PM
Interesting that you mention this. That's precisely why many first century Jews didn't believe Jesus either. But think of it this way: as Paul puts it, he's the visible image of the invisible God.Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 14 2004, 04:10 PM
But that's a prophet, not a messiah. The Moshiach carries a King, not a messiah. God doesn't have a son, he doesn't have a human body, he's far too abstract for that.
#12
Alakhriveion
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:30 PM
But god isn't visible, he's not even invisible. He's abstract.
#13
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:32 PM
As an atheist, I don't really care if Jesus was the Messiah.
I don't understand why any atheist would, as it doesn't matter to us.
Yeah, Jesus could be the Messiah, he could not be...I'm indifferent either way.
I don't understand why any atheist would, as it doesn't matter to us.
Yeah, Jesus could be the Messiah, he could not be...I'm indifferent either way.
#14
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:34 PM
Pardon the cycnicism, but wasn't this supposed to happen around the turn of the millenium? I remember seeing headlines on the tabloids in supermarket checkout lines talking about how towards the end of 1999/beginning of 2000, Jesus was going to return and the world was going to end. And uh.. i'm still here.Originally posted by arunma@Sep 14 2004, 05:05 PM
One important point for everyone to remember is that there will be a second coming.
Not that i'm holding supermarket tabloids as credible sources, but at the time I thought this was the general belief of all christians.
I was also 11 years old at the time.
#15
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:16 PM
Originally posted by alak
And there's not god. I'm adding this on to the end of all my posts in entirely religious discussions so there's no confution. Don't discuss it, please, we have enough digression as it is.
That won't be annoying, offensive, insulting, condescending, or tempting to refute at all. I'm glad you're doing it. Oh yeah, and it sets a great example, too.
And Flint, um, I don't know how to break it to you, but you were wrong on thinking it was the general belief of Christians. Revalations clearly states that the second coming, or the beginning of the end times, depending on which you interperet to come first, will come at an unpredictable time.
#16
Alakhriveion
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:21 PM
Oh, come on. Not everyone is always going to be experienced here. Confusion is a bad thing.
#17
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:23 PM
What do you mean?
#18
Alakhriveion
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:29 PM
I was responding to your response to my psudeo-disclaimer. I assume you were being sarcastic, one of us always is.
#19
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:47 PM
Yeah, but what experience are you talking about?
#20
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:49 PM
Experience knowing us, knowing who we are. Not everyone reads the pinned thread, look at the number of Jailees.
Er, remember the number of jailees.
Er, remember the number of jailees.
#21
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 05:59 PM
What the hell is going on???
I'm thoroughly confused with the proceedings.
All of you, BANNED!
Kidding. But...can we get back on topic please? Alak or Steve T...I have no idea what you're trying to say to eachother in crude English, but can someone make a coherent post about it, and clear things up, so the people who care about this topic can get back on topic.
Much appreciated.
I'm thoroughly confused with the proceedings.
All of you, BANNED!
Kidding. But...can we get back on topic please? Alak or Steve T...I have no idea what you're trying to say to eachother in crude English, but can someone make a coherent post about it, and clear things up, so the people who care about this topic can get back on topic.
Much appreciated.
#22
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:04 PM
Arright, I get what you're trying to say, Alak.
Granite, it's perfectly clear that we weren't using crude English so much as cryptic English.
My first post was complete sarcasm, as Alak pointed out. Hope that clears things up.
Granite, it's perfectly clear that we weren't using crude English so much as cryptic English.
My first post was complete sarcasm, as Alak pointed out. Hope that clears things up.
#23
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:04 PM
it would be like taking the state of texas, covering it in nickels three feet deep. and making one red. Blindfolded, you have now picked out that one single one.
You have a better chance of this happening, than Jesus was the Messiah.
But read the Bible. Read the prophecies of the Old Testament. Heck, read the new testament, and the footnotes will point you in the direction of where the Prophecy was written over a thousand years ago. If Jesus had fulfilled 8 of the Prophecies, he would be the Messiah. and he fulfilled about... let's go with.... 36 and 10 to the 17th power. how many zeros is that? Can the human mind even comprehend that number?
It would be like someone in the stone age writing down, word for word, what you were going to reply to this message.
You have a better chance of this happening, than Jesus was the Messiah.
But read the Bible. Read the prophecies of the Old Testament. Heck, read the new testament, and the footnotes will point you in the direction of where the Prophecy was written over a thousand years ago. If Jesus had fulfilled 8 of the Prophecies, he would be the Messiah. and he fulfilled about... let's go with.... 36 and 10 to the 17th power. how many zeros is that? Can the human mind even comprehend that number?
It would be like someone in the stone age writing down, word for word, what you were going to reply to this message.
#24
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:07 PM
Sure we can. 10^23 is the order of a mole.
#25
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:09 PM
Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 14 2004, 07:04 PM
Arright, I get what you're trying to say, Alak.
Granite, it's perfectly clear that we weren't using crude English so much as cryptic English.
My first post was complete sarcasm, as Alak pointed out. Hope that clears things up.
I wasn't trying to be mod-like. My post was in jest...at least 90%. The crude English thing was just poking fun...although I did wish you guys would get the stories straight.
Frankly, I don't care about the thread staying on topic.
I care about the people who care about the thread staying on topic.
#26
Ogmios22188
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:15 PM
Originally posted by arunma@Sep 14 2004, 05:07 PM
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Arunma, I believe that in your attempt to prove that Jesus was/is the Messiah, you proved that he had children.
#27
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:34 PM
My attempt? That's what the Bible says. Besides, it doesn't say that he had children. Look here.
Offspring doesn't refer to actual children.
Originally posted by Isaiah 53:8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
Offspring doesn't refer to actual children.
#28
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:41 PM
But it doesn't say that he didn't have children. Scripture is very...inconclusive on teh matter.
#29
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:42 PM
I said I was 11.Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 14 2004, 06:16 PM
And Flint, um, I don't know how to break it to you, but you were wrong on thinking it was the general belief of Christians.
#30
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Posted 14 September 2004 - 06:42 PM
Yeah, so that's understandable.
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