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Tips for the Male Academic: feminism gone wild?


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#31 Egann

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:25 PM

 

there are games, and games in which it can reasonably be said that women are naturally disadvantaged,
I see "scholarly discourse" might be considered to be one of them.


haha did you seriously say that

Christ, dude.

 

I can't see it being particularly true of scholarly stuff, but I can easily see women being at a disadvantage in professional job.

 

It boils down to two words: maternity leave. Women need at least a few weeks and often months away from work to bear and settle in with a child. Men almost never do this (although they often take leave to help.) This is an inherent expense of hiring a woman: any woman could opt to get pregnant at any time and she feels the effects directly. Men feel the effects indirectly or sympathetically.

 

Conclusion: when it comes to SALARY positions with benefits, employers hiring women are at marked disadvantages over employers hiring men. In so many words, equal pay may be impossible.



#32 Oberon Storm

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:53 PM

Jasi, on 02 Oct 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:
Yes, and as I said in my post already, I realize that each individual man does not necessarily have sexist intentions. For them maybe they are just doing this just once. For this reason, I'm not going to snap at a guy if he offers to help me carry my things; I'll just politely say "no thank you." (And repeat it over and over when they continue insisting that they are willing to help.) But if someone is inviting the discussion on the topic of sexism and feminism, I have to say that is an example of sexism being pervasive in our culture. Yet again I restate, it's about the big picture from the woman's perspective, not about each individual instance from the man's perspective.

I get that. What I am trying to say is that I think that bigger picture isn't there. I beleive the only reason you perceive any sexism is because you think the treatment you receive is given because you are a woman. The only example given where men are doing anything because you are a woman is when they offer assitance with doors, heavy objects, or directions because you are somehow lost. On that one I think we all agree that if assistance is decline then everyone involved should just move on.

So I am saying there is no culture of sexism. There are only individual acts. And since the blog was about individual acts and not an overall culture I have been using the specific examples. I don't think that the individual examples given are inherently sexist.

#33 Twinrova

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:12 PM

Multiple individual acts of sexism will create a culture of it, and trust me, there are plenty. I have a big ol' Fuck You if you're actually going to sit there and deny that there's no culture of sexism here. The only reason you think the treatment we receive isn't sexist is because you have the privileged position as a straight, white male and don't have to personally experience it.

 

 

I'm trying as hard as I fucking can to stay out of this thread because it's an extremely important issue to me, and seeing the things posted here are just making me very upset. But fuck you if you try to deny that this shit doesn't exist.



#34 Oberon Storm

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:37 PM

Multiple individual acts of sexism will create a culture of it, and trust me, there are plenty. I have a big ol' Fuck You if you're actually going to sit there and deny that there's no culture of sexism here. The only reason you think the treatment we receive isn't sexist is because you have the privileged position as a straight, white male and don't have to personally experience it.
 
 
I'm trying as hard as I fucking can to stay out of this thread because it's an extremely important issue to me, and seeing the things posted here are just making me very upset. But fuck you if you try to deny that this shit doesn't exist.

How is a man talking ove and interrupting a woman inherently sexist? I get that its an asshole thing to do, but is it INHERENTLY sexist? Not inviting a woman out to drinks with the guys? That's INHERENTLY sexist? Men should make it a point not to speak to women that way? Men shoud make it a point to invite women out for drinks just so we dont' get unfairly labeled as sexist? That's what the blog seems to suggest. It didn't really say everybody should be nice to everybody. I would agree with that. It is specifically saying be nice to women or you are a sexist.

If me acknowleding sexism does exist but it's not some society wide problem earn me a "fuck you" well... OK...

#35 Jasi

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:01 PM

No it's not inherently sexist, and that's not what anyone is saying including the author of the original article. Y'all are building straw men left and right and none of it is relevant.

 

Long before I read this article, I have complained about how men are constantly interrupting me when I am trying to get a word in during classes or over beers or whatever. And no, I don't like read feminist propaganda, so this idea was not put into my head from an outside source. It's something that I have observed on my own independent of outside influence. So yes, it is a real thing that happens to real people.

 

ALRIGHT I'm only gonna break this down one more time because I can't believe how often I have to repeat myself and you guys aren't reading it. I'll keep it short and sweet and use lots of line breaks and formatting so you don't need too work too hard to read it.

 

  • The article is suggesting that one should be mindful of how he treats his female colleagues and to make sure you're not unintentionally making them feel discriminated against because of their gender. A lot of women face these kinds of slights every day from many different people, not just the one man who's reading the blogger's article, but from everyone that surrounds them in their life. Strangers, acquaintances, friends, colleagues, siblings, parents. 

 

  • If the addressee of the blog post does these things too, regardless of intention, it adds up to the woman's overall life experience of constantly being interrupted or whatever by lots of different men in lots of different scenarios for many different reasons.

 

  • It does not matter if in this specific instance whether or not the offending man had sexist intentions. (Intention is never a magic excuse for wrongdoing.) It does not matter if the act of a man interrupting a woman is inherently sexist. It's about how it affects other people as something contributing to their day-to-day life.

 

  • And there is a decent chance that the addressee of the blog post might be unintentionally and unconsciously doing these things, because sexism is so pervasive and ubiquitous in our culture that sometimes men act sexist without even realizing it, or without realizing that sexism is real. Maybe if the addressee of the blog post had heightened awareness of how certain actions come across to women, they would think "Geez, I never meant to come off that way", and make these very slight adjustments to their attitude to make everyone more comfortable in the academic workplace.

 

Does that sound so outrageous to you?



#36 Oberon Storm

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:13 PM

At this point we're going to have to agree to disagree.

#37 Jasi

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:18 PM

Lovely. Okay. May I suggest, in parting, that you ask your mother/sister/girlfriend/female cousin/female friend/female colleague if they think that sexism is a society-wide problem or if it's limited to just a few assholes? I think you may find that you have to agree to disagree with most women you know. And in that case, maybe you should take a moment to reflect on that.


Edited by Jasi, 03 October 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#38 Mark

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:26 PM

Mark, it's hard to find your point, but is what you're basically saying that you don't like being expected to be nice to women for the sake of chivalry? That's not oppression, that's just common decency that really should be done for any man or woman and nobody's FORCING you to.

..... not really.

 

 

my point is this:

dont complain about guys opening doors for you.

 

 

 

here is what I believe is the central line to my point about door opening:

Multiple times, as I lock up my bike when I get to work to teach my classes, men have come up to me asking if I need help or directions or something like that. I understand that each one of them probably thinks they're just being friendly and helpful, but what's communicated to me by the fact that multiple men do it on a semi-regular basis is "You look like you can't handle these things on your own and men feel the need to help you." Similarly, every single day, literally, that I leave my apartment looking nice (and by "nice", I don't mean "sexy"—just put together), I get catcalled by strangers. Maybe one guy on his own thinks he's just brightening someone's day by telling them they're beautiful. But the composite of all of these strangers' actions put together is just tiresome.

.....

[and contributes to a climate of sexism]

 

If I were part of a culture in which random women would pro-actively cook and offer me scons if they sensed I was hungry under the assumption that because I was a man I probably couldn't cook (which I daresay is statistically justified btw. ) I seriously don't think I would complain.

 

open doors, and help the woman with luggage etc. be courteous and proactive about helping. are virtues mums tend to pass down to sons, and a slice of women seem to think is a good thing too. how is a guy supposed to know otherwise?

furthermore it seems that shows of generous character are things which traditionally women have chosen for in mates - and some even call those actions 'chivalrous' - should a guy change his behavioral showing of his generosity just because he isnt trying to impress someone?

as a result, society smiles on guys who try to help girls out.

do you want to change that?

 

If this does make a climate of sexism, I believe that there is a fair case that it goes the other way in this case.

 

...you have got to be kidding. That is still a position where women are acting in servitude toward men. Of course that would not be something to complain about. Women are bringing you free goodies. 

 

If you were part of a culture where women interrupted you constantly, dismissed your opinions, were ignoring your talents in favor of saying things like "Like I said, I actively want to look at cocks, so I obviously don't have an aversion to men in social settings. Hell, I wish I could go to work and see nothing but hot boys doing physics," were paid more than you, and were more likely to be selected for jobs, promotions, publications, conferences, and so on, might you complain then? That's a better comparison, and that's what we're talking about here.

 

And in the same way, men give you 'free goodies' when/if they open doors and carry stuff for you. - why complain?

I actually agree, it isnt particularly nice to be seen as an object, or knowing that your likely to be inhibited to some degree.
It isnt fun to know that you are viewed to be physically weaker, or to be confronted with unwelcome calls or comments.
 
you have challenged me to empathize with women and their circumstances - fair enough.
I challenge you to develop a deeper understanding of why men behave the way they do.

 

To which I got:

Except, Mark, your 'challenge' is basically sexist as all fuck. I am beside myself with wonderment.



#39 Masamune

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 08:00 PM

I'm not sure how you managed to drive all of that down to 'holding doors open for women', Mark. There's nothing wrong with that. I do that for anyone who happens to be behind me or if they happen to be struggling with a load of items or what have you. The important take away is that you aren't doing it because you somehow think Women so weak that they struggle opening doors or that by doing so will somehow ingratiate them to you. You just hold open the door because it's kind of fucking rude to let the door hit somebody in the face, regardless of who they are. 

But the points here haven't been about that, of all things, being any kind of a major issue. The idea that you're supposed to hold doors open for women is a symptom of a larger issue, even though by itself it's pretty innocent. And this is not just for Mark, but the wider discussion: It's not the actions that are the worse things. I mean, admittedly, that's what Jasi and the others are hitting on here, because they feel the repercussions of the actions. But it's really just the way of thinking that us guys have. And it's kind of insidious because it's how we're raised and conditioned to think. And it can be really hard to shake and I am constantly having to reevaluate how I think because I can instinctively make a judgement call in my head and then realize, "Wow, that is incredibly sexist." And it's hard  to shake it. The damn thing is built in to us by society. I can honestly say that two years ago, I probably would have been reading this post and rolling my eyes and going, "Wow, these women, so touchy, yeesh." 

 

I think most of you guys would benefit from dropping your guard and reading some feminist literature with an open mind. (If it helps, you can call it equalist literature and pretend like you're going to get back those filthy benders from oppressing you.) Not the "men are the scourge of society!" variety, but the honest heartfelt kind that talk about how sexism impacts women on a personal level. I'd show you some, but I just kind of have it passed in front of me, I read it, and then kind of move along. But it's good to evaluate the way you think and why you think it. The answers may surprise you. 



#40 Mark

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

  • The article is suggesting that one should be mindful of how he treats his female colleagues and to make sure you're not unintentionally making them feel discriminated against because of their gender. A lot of women face these kinds of slights every day from many different people, not just the one man who's reading the blogger's article, but from everyone that surrounds them in their life. Strangers, acquaintances, friends, colleagues, siblings, parents. 

 

I generally agree with the thrust of the bold.

 

I would however say: "one should be mindful of how he treats his female colleagues and to make sure you're not unintentionally causing them potential or actual loss due to his recognition of their gender"

 

which i feel is either much more precise OR is crucially different.

 

 

the phrase "making them feel discriminated against" is a little jargony, and includes the weakening word 'feel' (what if the feel is unjustified? note also that loss of positive experience can be considered loss.)

and I believe the "his recognition of" is utterly crucial.

 

 

  • If the addressee of the blog post does these things too, regardless of intention, it adds up to the woman's overall life experience of constantly being interrupted or whatever by lots of different men in lots of different scenarios for many different reasons.

 

If such unintentional action adds up to such an experience, then I wouldn't be one to know.

 


  • It does not matter if in this specific instance whether or not the offending man had sexist intentions. (Intention is never a magic excuse for wrongdoing.) It does not matter if the act of a man interrupting a woman is inherently sexist. It's about how it affects other people as something contributing to their day-to-day life.

 

If I understand, I am not sure that I dont disagree.

there is sometimes a compromise between the freedom of individuals, and the happiness of all.

 

 

 

  • And there is a decent chance that the addressee of the blog post might be unintentionally and unconsciously doing these things, because sexism is so pervasive and ubiquitous in our culture that sometimes men act sexist without even realizing it, or without realizing that sexism is real. Maybe if the addressee of the blog post had heightened awareness of how certain actions come across to women, they would think "Geez, I never meant to come off that way", and make these very slight adjustments to their attitude to make everyone more comfortable in the academic workplace.

 

And we can argue about who has it worse till the cows come home.



#41 Jasi

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 08:58 PM

the phrase "making them feel discriminated against" is a little jargony, and includes the weakening word 'feel' (what if the feel is unjustified? note also that loss of positive experience can be considered loss.)
and I believe the "his recognition of" is utterly crucial.

 
Well, the word "feel" is used in a lot of guidelines for proper conduct in various situations. E.g., in most workplaces, something is sexual harassment if the person being harassed feels harassed, end of story. In fact, in general, it's harassment if the person feels harassed. Shall we get rid of workplace laws about harassment, too? Furthermore I'm not sure how one would prove a "loss of a positive experience" without invoking feelings so I think you're making a very artificial distinction here. Feel free to clarify.
 

If such unintentional action adds up to such an experience, then I wouldn't be one to know.

EXACTLY—THAT'S WHY THIS PERSON WROTE THIS BLOG POST, SO THAT YOU COULD BECOME AWARE. But instead of learning something you're defensive and essentially dismissing the argument by saying "quit overreacting, I'm sure it's nothing". Yeah, you're NEVER going to be one to know at this rate, since you are choosing ignorance so that you don't have to be made uncomfortable or question your own perspective on things.
 

And we can argue about who has it worse till the cows come home.


What? No. This isn't the Oppression Olympics. This is just about how to be considerate to others, which is now apparently a "controversial" topic. Who knew.



#42 Nevermind

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:34 PM

All I gained from this thread was confusion as to whether Im being sexist or just being polite.

Thanks ladies.


Wait was that sexist? Shit I just dont know no mo!

#43 Twinrova

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:43 PM

There is a world of difference between being sexist and being polite though I can understand why you could be confused because I've already been asked questions about this. If you have specific questions I would be happy to try and answer then for you.

#44 Nevermind

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:51 PM

As my housemate was leaving this morning, I picked up the big box she was taking and put it in her car for her. Sexist or just a cool guy?

See, I did it because she put it down and had looked awkward as fuck carrying that plus the two bags dangled on her arm. She didnt expect it, told me she was fine but thanked me and was all cool with it.

Could my housemate have Greerd me and told me she wasnt weak and pull out some shit about being a strong independant woman in that situation? Id say so. Fine line.

#45 Selena

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:54 PM

Ap-e6nXCAAAkGxE.jpg

 

This thread.



#46 Nevermind

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:03 PM

Coincidentally also how your mums thread played out.

#47 Mark

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:41 PM

 

the phrase "making them feel discriminated against" is a little jargony, and includes the weakening word 'feel' (what if the feel is unjustified? note also that loss of positive experience can be considered loss.)
and I believe the "his recognition of" is utterly crucial.

 
Well, the word "feel" is used in a lot of guidelines for proper conduct in various situations. E.g., in most workplaces, something is sexual harassment if the person being harassed feels harassed, end of story. In fact, in general, it's harassment if the person feels harassed. Shall we get rid of workplace laws about harassment, too? Furthermore I'm not sure how one would prove a "loss of a positive experience" without invoking feelings so I think you're making a very artificial distinction here. Feel free to clarify.

 

well I would say that harassment should only be sustained as a charge if the person does feel and should feel harassed. (for instance: if someone feels harassed by perfectly reasonable behavior, I say tough.)

 

talking about general 'loss' is wider than just feelings. eg. monetary, reputation etc. I thought talking about 'causing potential/actual loss' was a good way to not use the word 'discrimination'. not much more.

 

 

If such unintentional action adds up to such an experience, then I wouldn't be one to know.

EXACTLY—THAT'S WHY THIS PERSON WROTE THIS BLOG POST, SO THAT YOU COULD BECOME AWARE. But instead of learning something you're defensive and essentially dismissing the argument by saying "quit overreacting, I'm sure it's nothing". Yeah, you're NEVER going to be one to know at this rate, since you are choosing ignorance so that you don't have to be made uncomfortable or question your own perspective on things.

and I can be angry too.

       eg. I could (but I am not) asking: how can you demand guys be more considerate to women (and ask that they take effort to especially not to interrupt you - because your a woman) and at the same time object when they do show consideration of women (you express feeling slightly put-out by guys going out of their way to open doors / carying stuff / giving directions etc.) ?

 

 

I understand what it is that you dont like - you dont like being treated like objects, and want to be treated primarily as people.

I really dont feel your 'atmosphere of sexism'. and maybe you are right - if I immersed myself in reading about it I would feel it and it might change my perspective.

 

but I believe Chief is right - if you cant point to something substantial and actually say - "that action was wrong (is sexist)" it is pretty awkward to then make a claim that "we (as women) are wronged (in a climate of sexism)"

 

 


And we can argue about who has it worse till the cows come home.


What? No. This isn't the Oppression Olympics. This is just about how to be considerate to others, which is now apparently a "controversial" topic. Who knew.

 

 

lol



#48 Selena

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

Proper contribution post.

 

Incorporating women in the workplace is not a difficult thing. This is what you do: treat her as a human being. There is usually no reason to treat your female colleagues any differently from your male colleagues, barring some very rare and special circumstances.

 

Most of the points in the original article should be no-brainers. Use her proper titles. Don't harp on her physical appearance. Include women in group discussions. Don't mansplain/assume she's an idiot. Don't ignore her accomplishments. Basically, don't be a douche.

 

The more controversial points:

 

Lifting Things

 

If your job regularly involves a ton of physical labor, then chances are smaller-framed men and women won't even be hired in the first place. Women have less physical strength on average, but most women are fully capable of standard physical labor. Taking 15 pounds up and down a ladder is not strenuous. I do it every day at work, and my boss, who is only 5'1" and doesn't look very strong, is insanely tough for her size. Women are usually tougher than most people -- of either gender -- assume.

 

Don't assume women are weak just because they're female. The key word in the article was insisting on helping, regardless of whether they actually need help or not. If they need help, offer to lend them a hand. You should also help any smaller-framed male who has trouble lifting something.

 

 

Talking Over People

 

The only one I might agree with arunma on.

 

As a general rule, you shouldn't be talking over anyone. Period. It's rude. Were you raised in a barn? But okay. There are some high-stress careers where yelling, snapping, and talking over people is pretty common. In these instances, it's okay -- and she shouldn't fuss about it. Because it's a part of a high-tension job. If you can't handle pressure, don't take that job.

 

My job can occasionally get like this, and we all sometimes get pissed off at each other, but it's par for the course. We get over it once the tense environment dissolves. And most people on my team are female, so we're obviously capable of not only enduring harsh conversation, but we're also capable of dishing it out. If a lady finds it acceptable to be yelled at by another woman, but freaks the hell out when a man does the exact same thing, then she's no longer in the realm of "equal treatment."

 

Maternity Leave

 

It boils down to two words: maternity leave. Women need at least a few weeks and often months away from work to bear and settle in with a child. Men almost never do this (although they often take leave to help.) This is an inherent expense of hiring a woman: any woman could opt to get pregnant at any time and she feels the effects directly. Men feel the effects indirectly or sympathetically.

 

You kind of undid your argument with "men often take leave to help." If men are taking time off, too, then it's not just the woman who is to blame. Some first-time moms have a tendency to stay home with their kids longer, chiefly because all first-time parents are hyper-paranoid about their new kids. Second or third-time mothers are back at work within a couple weeks, because by then, pfft, little shits can take care of themselves.

 

Most families, frankly, can't afford to have either parent take time off work. So mothers usually come back to work as soon as possible. Making maternity leave roughly on par with using up all your vacation days in one shot. Which may be inconvenient, but it's also not unjustified.

 

Also, women do not get pregnant in order to get out of work.

 

Also, this still doesn't justify paying women less for equal work. We are not conspiring to have babies.

 

Also, if your culture considers it a massive burden for a woman to take a month off to raise more humans, your civilization probably doesn't have its priorities straight.

 

 

Home Life

 

I read this as applying to working-women. And it's true. Even if both spouses are working, the woman is often expected to do more at home anyway. This happened with my family. My stepfather and mother both work (she actually works later in the evening than he does), and he always got on her case for "not doing housework." As he sat on his computer staring at the internet for three hours before she even set foot in the house. He might mow the lawn and do random other "manly" household things, but, on average, the "womanly" work -- like dishes and laundry -- is more regular and plentiful than lawncare or household repairs. Thus requiring more time. Thus why women may be unfairly burdened at home.

 

If your woman is a housewife, then this argument is irrelevant. In that case, household work is effectively her "job." Same for any men who stay home full-time while their wife works.

 

Your motivation for treating women chivalrously:

 

As my housemate was leaving this morning, I picked up the big box she was taking and put it in her car for her. Sexist or just a cool guy?

See, I did it because she put it down and had looked awkward as fuck carrying that plus the two bags dangled on her arm. She didnt expect it, told me she was fine but thanked me and was all cool with it.

 

 

Using this as an example, because it's a good lead-in. These kind of things can be put through a quick test.

 

1) If you would still go out of your way to do this for a dude who was obviously struggling with something, then chances are that you're a cool guy! Woo! Cool guys are awesome!

 

2) If you would ignore the guy who was obviously struggling with something, then there's a higher likelihood that you were only helping the girl 'cause you were trying to look good in front of the ladies. Which means you had ulterior motives, even if they were subconscious.

 

 

 

See, most guys are conditioned to do the chivalrous open-doors-for-women type things. Lift heavy things. Go out of your way to help them. Coats over mud puddles. All that stuff. But when you strip away all the superficial layers of these practices, you're left with the most basic of motivations -- you're helping chicks because you want to bang them. Which means you're subconsciously thinking of women as sex toys. But you don't know the sex toy's "power up" code, so doing all this "nice" stuff is the equivalent of codebreaking. If you do stuff to win her favor, she may start to like you, and then she may start to like-like you, and then she might put out. A lot of this "nice" stuff stops happening once guys get what they want, which is why girls are increasingly wary about it.

 

If you're really doing it to be nice, then nice isn't something that's limited to gender. You'd hold doors open for anyone. You'd help anyone out. You'd do it without expecting to get anything (apart from maybe a "thank you" and some respect) in return.

 

I'm from what's considered to be a really polite region, so guys hold doors open for anyone behind them. Young girls open doors for old men. It's just what you do. 'Cause it's nice. Nice isn't an age or gender or race or religion.

 

"This is what I was taught to do," is the usual answer for why guys do the chivalrous things. But that's the surface answer. Why did those practices come into existence in the first place?

 

For the booty, my friend. For the booty.

 

So, no, it's not inherently sexist. But sometimes guys do this stuff with questionable motivations.

 

 

 

 

Now, this all applies to professional and/or cordial settings. Romantic relationships have different rules -- which vary from couple to couple, because everyone's different.

 

edit: Also, sexism is pervasive within our culture. If you don't realize this, then consider yourself extremely fortunate that you don't have to bear the brunt of it. Individual sexist acts are learned, and that is derived from the culture in question.



#49 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:44 PM

Y'all are building straw men left and right and none of it is relevant.

THIS. SOOOOOO much.
 

Mark, it's hard to find your point, but is what you're basically saying that you don't like being expected to be nice to women for the sake of chivalry? That's not oppression, that's just common decency that really should be done for any man or woman and nobody's FORCING you to.

..... not really.
 
 
my point is this:
dont complain about guys opening doors for you.

Nobody's complaining about that.
 

Jasi, on 02 Oct 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:
Yes, and as I said in my post already, I realize that each individual man does not necessarily have sexist intentions. For them maybe they are just doing this just once. For this reason, I'm not going to snap at a guy if he offers to help me carry my things; I'll just politely say "no thank you." (And repeat it over and over when they continue insisting that they are willing to help.) But if someone is inviting the discussion on the topic of sexism and feminism, I have to say that is an example of sexism being pervasive in our culture. Yet again I restate, it's about the big picture from the woman's perspective, not about each individual instance from the man's perspective.

I get that. What I am trying to say is that I think that bigger picture isn't there. I beleive the only reason you perceive any sexism is because you think the treatment you receive is given because you are a woman. The only example given where men are doing anything because you are a woman is when they offer assitance with doors, heavy objects, or directions because you are somehow lost. On that one I think we all agree that if assistance is decline then everyone involved should just move on.

So I am saying there is no culture of sexism. There are only individual acts. And since the blog was about individual acts and not an overall culture I have been using the specific examples. I don't think that the individual examples given are inherently sexist.

I can CONFIRM that there is a culture of sexism. Because I am a crossdresser, and I have experienced firsthand exactly how men and women are treated differently. Being offered unnecessary assistance is one thing, but for me it's only a minor annoyance. However often times it goes beyond that and gets very uncomfortable. When dressed as a woman, men often do things like, put their hand on my back and give a gentle push when directing me somewhere (ech), peppering their language with "ma'am"s much more than they do with "sir"s when I'm dressed as a man, checking me out, speaking to me in a flirtatious manner, catcalls and whistling, and asking me what I'm doing and where I'm going completely unsolicited. Actually, I have gotten to the point where I rarely crossdress in public at ALL anymore specifically because I do not like that kind of attention. So what does that say about society?
 

As my housemate was leaving this morning, I picked up the big box she was taking and put it in her car for her. Sexist or just a cool guy?

See, I did it because she put it down and had looked awkward as fuck carrying that plus the two bags dangled on her arm. She didnt expect it, told me she was fine but thanked me and was all cool with it.

Could my housemate have Greerd me and told me she wasnt weak and pull out some shit about being a strong independant woman in that situation? Id say so. Fine line.

Nobody's saying it's sexist to help someone to carry something. We're saying it's sexist to insist on doing it even if she said she DID NOT WANT you to help.

#50 Toan

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

Just... holy shit, y'all.

Holy shit.

Making me think I must work in some totally asexual workplace heaven after reading this or something. Never has the topic of sexism in my workplace ever even crossed my mind.

And as far as mowing the lawn goes, well, I offered to take it over from Chik as part of us divvying up housechores, mostly because I'd feel bad if my tiny 105lbs wife had to push a heavy lawnmower up and down our hilly yard for 2 hours every other week. I don't think that sexism as much as I think it's concern for her wellbeing. Besides, my neighbor Jenny puts us to shame with how often she mows her lawn, good lord. x.x

Though if I may speak my mind for just a moment (and perhaps go down a route that has been unexplored for this thread as of now), I think Mark is trying to hint at a *few* points, but dude you're going the wrong way about this entirely (and, seriously, do not respond to another post with "lol" - it's against the rules, accomplishes shit-all, and comes off like you're an arrogant douchenozzle, so cut it out.)

I'm going to latch onto what Rova said here:
 

The only reason you think the treatment we receive isn't sexist is because you have the privileged position as a straight, white male and don't have to personally experience it.


This is entirely true. But, I also feel the pendulum swings both ways, and I hope nobody will end up disagreeing with that. Personally, the treatment that most women may not end up seeing as sexist but stings for me is the ilk that ends up as "Shares" and "Reposts" on Facebook/Twitter and the like on occasion, stuff like this and this where a bunch of girls will like and comment on it with messages like "haha you go girl xoxo", like I'm some idiotic pile of meat that needs dog training to know what's good for me. Not that I'd do it, but God save me if I were to swap genders in that and watch how fast I drop friends and get reported. The same goes for seemingly any TV commercial advertising a product nowadays, where the man is an overweight simpleton or arrogant asswipe, and beautiful condescending wife has to swoop in and save the day (or comments idly to her girlfriend on the side, "Men, amirite? lolololol"). This has also been the main focus of so many sitcoms for god knows how long (thanks Raymond, King of Queens), because somehow it's "funny", and to say anything to the contrary and raise awareness is met with the equally sexist "oh, man up" comment, as if to say it's my responsibility as a man to grunt and not care about really anything but sex and sports. The widespread mainstream acceptance of this form of misandry is troubling, and I think it's something Mark was trying to hint at (and forgive me if I am mistaken). Point being, going back to Rova's quotation, is that I feel there's a culture of sexism for each gender, that neither opposing gender may not recognize as sexism because they personally don't have to experience it.

But, this paragraph might be completely off-topic now that I review it... buuut, I typed it out and I wanna voice it, so I'll leave it.

...anyway.

...Also, tiny thing, but going back to arunma's link, I think it's silly to say not to comment on someone's appearance in a professional atmosphere. If someone looks good, I'm gonna compliment them, because I want them to feel good about looking good. A female colleague of mine had long, dark hair until a few months ago when she decided it was time for a change, and chopped it off and had it styled into a very cute pixie cut. You bet I commented on such a drastic change - and she grinned and thanked me, and we talked about hair for a while before the conversation spiraled off and we had to be reminded we were about to start a project meeting. It helped to foster a more casual, friendly line of communication, ultimately resulting in a level of comfort/humanity when talking to each other (since beforehand we were a bit unfamiliar with each other, and more uptight). The same goes for a developer I know and have gotten friendly with who occasionally, out of the blue, puts on a snazzy suit to change up his routine, and I've called him out on it (to the degree of "looking sharp today man, wow"), and in doing so I've learned from him on a few occasions that it was more than just a routine change: "oh, I'm having a meeting with Vice President XYZ today about topics ABC". To say that I should avoid icebreakers like that seems a bit too extreme, y'know?

At the end of the day, take a leaf from Bill and Ted, and just be excellent to each other.

#51 Jasi

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:42 AM

I think I need to clarify: when I brought up how people offer to help me carry my stuff in when I'm locking up my bike at work, the reason it's irritating is because I actually do not have very much stuff, and I am not struggling—like, I have my backpack and my front basket from my bike, which has my helmet and a towel in it and probably weighs 3 pounds. Pretty sure any woman can handle that. Like Lena said, it's rather transparent why guys are being so helpful to me, and I don't think they'd do that for another man. 

 

I am NOT talking about opening doors for people. In fact I never brought that up once. I don't think twice about that, and I especially want people to open doors for me when I'm rolling my bike out of the apartment building or carrying home groceries or whatever. People generally open doors for other people regardless of gender. I think it's pretty clear what I am talking about and what I'm not talking about. The fact that people can't get through a whole post without making a straw man really says something for the legs on which their argument stands, in my opinion.



#52 Nevermind

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:11 AM

On the flip side, rather than being sexist, they could just be trying to hit you up.

 

- Help girl carry stuff.

- Hook up.

 

 

It's a legitimate tactic.

 

 

 

 

On a more serious note, if I think girls are weak, then yeah that is rather demeaning but if I instead think girls are weaker than I am - at least most of them - is that considered sexism? To me it seems like a logical thing to carry something for a girl in such a situation, since it will be less effort on myself than it will on her. Not that she cannot carry it but having me carry it seems like a more efficient, more logical choice. (to clarify, I wouldn't just help out a random girl, rather just people I know)

 

Is this a sexist notion or just a difference in perspective?


Edited by Nevermind, 04 October 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#53 Jasi

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:52 AM

No I think that's okay, Laz, especially if you offer first instead of just assuming. I bet many girls would say "Yeah that'd be great, thanks". There are real physiological differences between men and women; no one is denying that, although I think Lena was right to say that many times women are stronger than one might assume. Like Hana keeps saying, the problem is more when you insist on helping when help has been declined.

 

That's why I posted my clarification—  think what I said lead to a lot of confusion because I was not clear enough about specifically why that situation was bothersome to me personally. It's in large part because 1) it's strangers, and I am generally distrustful of strangers, 2) my bike basket weighs next to nothing and I do this every day, and 3) one person asked 3 times over before he got the picture and went away. But putting down acts of chivalry was never really my main point, so I'm sorry to make you question your courteousness. 



#54 wisp

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:42 AM



Lovely. Okay. May I suggest, in parting, that you ask your mother/sister/girlfriend/female cousin/female friend/female colleague if they think that sexism is a society-wide problem or if it's limited to just a few assholes? I think you may find that you have to agree to disagree with most women you know. And in that case, maybe you should take a moment to reflect on that.

I'm sort of trying to stay out of this thread also, because participating in this kind of argument is almost always like banging my head against a wall and I do not enjoy it. However, I feel like I should say that at least in the area where I live, there is a lot of unconscious societal conditioning that basically encourages women to be misogynistic (otherwise we get labeled as "feminazis" and are assumed to be bitchy, unstable, easily offended, at best not worth talking to and at worst worthy of cruel ridicule). For years I would say I didn't like other women because they're too "catty" and that I preferred hanging out with men and sexism was so totally not a problem since like 50 years ago and anyone who believes otherwise is making it up. None of this was really true, as I discovered as soon as I actually took a look at who my real friends were (it was a pretty equal mixture of men and women) and read some facts about how sexism actually works.

 

So many women might honestly not consciously realize it's a problem.



#55 Jasi

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

For further discussion along the same lines (assuming that you believe that sexism is real), if you wish to move on to related topics without beating the same horse, here's an opinion article from the Washington Post about gender bias in professional academic networks and citations in papers, talking about how difficult it is to have any semblance of equality when women are so terribly underrepresented in academia.

 

Here's the opening and closing paragraphs of the article:

 

The gender gap in citations in international relations identified by Daniel Maliniak, Ryan M. Powers, and Barbara F. Walter is real and, frankly, puzzling on at least two levels. Let me try to illustrate the problem, and speculate on the cause, mostly via anecdote and with a few references to the available literature on academic networking. This is hardly a scientific response but will, I hope, engage the issues raised by this important article and, perhaps, stimulate further debate.

 
I know the citations gap is real from personal experience. I was recently called out by a reviewer for a submission of mine to a major international journal. Quite correctly and appropriately, the reviewer pointed out that of the first authors in my extensive reference list, only about 10 percent were women. In revisions, I consciously tried to increase this percentage – and here is the first level of the puzzle – it was hard. Frankly, it took effort and required me to reach beyond the works I would normally cite. I am still not sure why  this exercise was quite so difficult, but it was not simply a matter of replacing article A by a man with article B by a woman. Citations are easily substitutable. I had to broaden the literatures cited in the article to have a significant effect. Expanding the range of citations made the paper significantly better, engaged more communities, and strengthened the argument, but in the end I still did not cite women in proportion to their numbers in the discipline. Dan Nexon apparently had the same problem in his self-experiment in citations, but that is small comfort. Reflecting on this one instance, I now realize that I have likely been guilty of citation bias for many years in many publications. I am not proud of this fact. Prior to reading Maliniak et al., however, it had never dawned on me to check the gender-distribution of my citations. One benefit of the paper will be to make us all more sensitive to gender balance – but I doubt the problem will be entirely self-correcting.
 
...

 

 

So, “what is to be done?” Social norms have power only to the extent they are respected and reproduced through practice. To change social norms, they need to be transgressed, de-normalized, and actively challenged. Women need to “lean in” as Sheryl Sandberg has urged, but not necessarily by taking on more professional obligations or responsibilities – for which they are already disproportionately burdened. Rather, they need to reach out to male colleagues, expect to be treated as equals, and ignore the gossip of those who may imply that professional networking across genders is somehow inappropriate.

 

In turn, when women feel they are not being treated professionally, they need to speak up – and we, as a profession, need to create safe spaces in which these conversations can occur. In discussing gendered interactions with female colleagues, nearly every exchange has led to a trickle and sometimes a small flood of examples of unequal treatment and often gross sexism. Write it off to my naiveté, again, but I have been surprised at the extent of the problem in academia. Women do put themselves at risk professionally in calling attention to the mistreatment to which they are subjected—and unfortunately this is likely to remain a real issue. But bottling mistreatment up and, perhaps, sharing it with only close friends hides the extent of the problem we collectively face. Some men may dislike having their behavior and attitudes examined, and some women may wish that gender issues might be less prominent than they are at the moment, but there is safety in numbers here. Seizing the opportunity provided by the Maliniak et al. paper and flushing sexism into the open for everyone reveals the problem more fully and protects individual women who may come forward with their experiences.
 
Men, in turn, need to lean in as well, and take the initiative in reaching out to female colleagues on the same terms and in the same way they would male colleagues. Indeed, given current imbalances in professional networks, men should make special efforts to reach out to their female colleagues. Prominent senior scholars who are often perceived as gatekeepers in the discipline have a particular obligation to reach out to women and, conversely, to make clear that lingering misogynist attitudes will not be tolerated. Maybe someday we can develop non-gendered professional networks that lead to citations that depend, as always, on who you know, but that do not reproduce gender bias in citations.

 

 

 

And here is another, much longer opinion piece about why there are still so few women in the STEM fields. The biggest culprit identified was the culture of excusing women from failing at maths and sciences, rather than demanding as much from them as we do from boys, as well as lack of encouragement from male superiors.


Here's the opening and closing paragraphs of the article:

 

Last summer, researchers at Yale published a study proving that physicists, chemists and biologists are likely to view a young male scientist more favorably than a woman with the same qualifications. Presented with identical summaries of the accomplishments of two imaginary applicants, professors at six major research institutions were significantly more willing to offer the man a job. If they did hire the woman, they set her salary, on average, nearly $4,000 lower than the man’s. Surprisingly, female scientists were as biased as their male counterparts.

 

The new study goes a long way toward providing hard evidence of a continuing bias against women in the sciences. Only one-fifth of physics Ph.D.’s in this country are awarded to women, and only about half of those women are American; of all the physics professors in the United States, only 14 percent are women. The numbers of black and Hispanic scientists are even lower; in a typical year, 13 African-Americans and 20 Latinos of either sex receive Ph.D.’s in physics. The reasons for those shortages are hardly mysterious — many minority students attend secondary schools that leave them too far behind to catch up in science, and the effects of prejudice at every stage of their education are well documented. But what could still be keeping women out of the STEM fields (“STEM” being the current shorthand for “science, technology, engineering and mathematics”), which offer so much in the way of job prospects, prestige, intellectual stimulation and income?

 

...

 

As so many studies have demonstrated, success in math and the hard sciences, far from being a matter of gender, is almost entirely dependent on culture — a culture that teaches girls math isn’t cool and no one will date them if they excel in physics; a culture in which professors rarely encourage their female students to continue on for advanced degrees; a culture in which success in graduate school is a matter of isolation, competition and ridiculously long hours in the lab; a culture in which female scientists are hired less frequently than men, earn less money and are allotted fewer resources.


Edited by Jasi, 04 October 2013 - 12:30 PM.


#56 Selena

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

On a more serious note, if I think girls are weak, then yeah that is rather demeaning but if I instead think girls are weaker than I am - at least most of them - is that considered sexism? To me it seems like a logical thing to carry something for a girl in such a situation, since it will be less effort on myself than it will on her. Not that she cannot carry it but having me carry it seems like a more efficient, more logical choice. (to clarify, I wouldn't just help out a random girl, rather just people I know)

 

 

This is all cool.

 

There's no problem with the simple act of guys doing chivalrous-y things. The problem lies in some guys having those ulterior motives (i.e.: only being nice when they want a li'l somethin'-somethin' from the woman they're approaching). Which is more being an deceptive asshole than it is being prejudiced. The more prejudiced motivation is "oh, this woman is pitiful and weak, let me do this for her."

 

 

Still not cool to do the "only help girls you secretly wanna bang" thing, though. It makes girls feel like easily discarded objects. It's not being nice -- it's pretending to be nice.

 

Guys are usually pretty kind and helpful toward me... if they assume I'm straight. Me telling a guy that I'm gay often results in them completely dropping that "helpful" personality, because they know they aren't going to get any -- so there's no "point" to being nice. Same for any straight girl telling Mr. Chivalry that she has a boyfriend. Bam. Chivalry off-switch. Even amongst established friends, sometimes. Doesn't mean they go from chivalrous to rude, but they're either kinder to women they think they have a shot with, or they outright start ignoring you.

 

Which is how friend-zoning usually starts to happen. Girl assumes that guy is genuinely nice. Girl likes him as friend. Guy gets increasingly frustrated that his "chivalry" isn't paying off. Guy eventually turns hostile due to growing frustration. Girl left confused and hurt. Everyone unhappy. There's an oft-reblogged post with a good line, "She may have friend-zoned you, but you girlfriend-zoned her first."

 

A mirrored situation is if a girl comes up to you, acts all sweet and kind and amazing, then immediately stops talking to you after she convinces you to fix her car or something. Obviously doesn't make you feel too good. Because you were used. I don't necessarily label the whole chivalry-as-using-girls thing as outright sexist, though, because girls do it too. The genders just usually have different end goals in mind.

 

We've regrettably all done it before, knowingly or unknowingly. But something to be avoided. Nice for niceness's sake.



#57 Alastair

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:13 PM

The fundamental problem is that the article in question is inherently sexist. SteveT nailed this on page 1.

 

I feel like this thread would have been a lot shorter if they left the feminism out of it and just wrote about the importance of being civil to coworkers.

 

-Don't arbitrarily expect a coworker to bring you coffee

-Don't race coworkers to the door so you can hold it for them

-Address your coworker by title and last name

-Don’t talk over your colleagues. Different people communicate differently. You may not realize that you’re doing it, but if you find yourself interrupting coworkers, or speaking over them, stop.

-Don’t refuse to go through doors opened by a coworker, insist on carrying their field equipment, etc. Offer help, and drop it if help is declined.

-Pay attention to who you invite to informal work-related gatherings. If you’re often going out with members of your lab or department for drinks, make an effort to include everyone. You may be shutting your colleagues out from research opportunities or the sharing of ideas that happen in informal settings.

 

Take the gender out of it, and let me know if your hackles are still up.

 

Instead of providing a set of principles for how to treat all your colleagues the blog specifically targets interactions with females. The implication that gender should determine how you interact with your colleagues is simply wrong.

 

(I think most people have been trying to communicate this point, but it has been obscured by the polarising positions used to frame the debate).






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